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|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Yarok, the Desecrated
Legendary Creature — Elemental Horror
If a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability of a permanent you control to trigger, that ability triggers an additional time.
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wallisface on If something "only triggers once …
1 month ago
The "only once per turn" clause from Chandra, Hope's Beacon means that you won't be able to trigger it additional times. Note that if that clause wasn't there, that it would work as you intended.
Just to also clarify what TheOfficialCreator was eluding to, as it didn't read super-clear to me - with Yarok, the Desecrated on the field, when a single land enters play, Omnath, Locus of Creation would give you 4 life and - not 8 life. The additional trigger isn't a case of "the same ability triggering a second time", but more a scenario of "this clause being met a second time, and whatever happens because of that, happens" - and that is a good rule of thumb for getting your head around these additional trigger scenarios. Note however, that this Omnath/Yarok scenario is entirely different to your Chandra/Veyran one, as Chandra specifically doesn't allow her ability to trigger a second time in a turn.
TheOfficialCreator on If something "only triggers once …
1 month ago
Since the rules for Veyran say that it doesn't copy the trigger, only causes it to trigger an additional time, this interaction will not work, similar to how Omnath, Locus of Creation can still only go through its base cycle with Yarok, the Desecrated on field.
I found a similar thread from a while back, if you're interested.
legendofa on Card creation challenge
2 months ago
Dance of the Sprites
Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay 3 life. If you do, search your library for a creature card with mana value less than or equal to the number of lands you control, reveal it and put it into your hand, then shuffle. Otherwise, mill two cards.
Same challenge. I want to see what other people come up with.
TheOfficialCreator on Amass With Kenrith
4 months ago
Paradise Druid would be better than Utopia Tree, imo. Plus it keeps in theme with the War of the Spark.
Additionally, what do you think about Panharmonicon/Yarok, the Desecrated/Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines or, alternatively, Strionic Resonator, to double up on Amass triggers?
The Ozolith is also an INCREDIBLE utility in Amass decks, since it can easily replenish your Army if it dies. Budget options include Grakmaw, Skyclave Ravager and Reyhan, Last of the Abzan.
Made_Compleat on People's Thoughts on Mommy Norn?
4 months ago
Oh no! A functional monowhite commander! EVERYBODY PANIC!
Alright. I get that Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a big deal. A decent statline, vigilance, Yarok, the Desecrated as one ability and a much, much, much better version of Hushbringer as the other. She's certainly a powerhouse. But should she see the hammer? I think not.
I'll not say that Machine Mom isn't disruptive. She can shut down a good amount of popular cards in the format, such as Bramble Sovereign, Terror of the Peaks, and the notorious combo piece Palinchron. She can and will double up monowhite Oblivion Ring style effects. Honestly, I think that doubling Seal Away type cards is going to be the stax-ier part of Mama Machine. She doesn't shut down many combo decks (unless they use the aforementioned Palinchron), and really doesn't answer most cEDH decks. She hates out on ETBs, sure, but Yasharn, Implacable Earth hates out on sacrifice, arguably better. Gaddock Teeg is just absurdly good stax, and both Gaddok and Yasharn grant access to Green.
If you want to make Elesh Norn stax, then, ok, that's probably a deck that will give everyone a headache. But... are we going to cry "BAN HER!" for one way of building around Machine Mommy? If you want to run stax, go and buy a Hokori, Dust Drinker or Oloro, Ageless Ascetic. They're much better depriving everyone of fun than New Norn. Elesh Norn can do so much more than just stop everyone from having fun.
Honestly, a lot of the complaints that I see here are against the Stax archetype in general, not Norn. And I get that Norn seems like a good Stax commander, but... If hate stax, than complain about Hokori, or Oloro, or yes, even Archelos, Lagoon Mystic. Stax has its place: cEDH and masochistic playgroups.
Something that no one here is referencing is the Game Knights video in which Josh Lee Kwai played with a (proxied) Elesh Norn, and his deck was oppressive, but nothing too bad. Notably, Norn's restrictive ability saw a lot less use than her double ability, which was used to double small value abilities, as well as oblivion ring effects. The deck won the game, but it was very close and I wouldn't say it made Norn look banable. Not by a long shot.
So, in conclusion, Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a powerhouse, who certainly can be a problem, but probably isn't the worst card in EDH. Really, a lot of the complaints about her are complaints about Stax in general.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Also, did anyone else notice the fact that Navani (from Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive) and Elesh Norn have the same epithet? That always makes me crack up.
Epidilius on People's Thoughts on Mommy Norn?
5 months ago
A lot has been said already, but my two cents:
Will she absolutely destroy my casual Inalla, Archmage Ritualist Wizard ETB tribal deck? Yeah. I have ways to deal with it, but if the table wants to scoop I'd probably say "Let me see if my draw step can deal with it, if it can't I'll scoop with you".
Will she destroy my Yarok, the Desecrated ETB combo deck? Maybe. It has three main ETB combos that it turns off, but the deck is also full of removal for things like this.
Will she hurt my two other fav decks; a hardcore combo focused Teferi, Temporal Archmage and a super casual Daxos of Meletis? Not really. I have some ETBs that can win me the game or make big swings, but otherwise this kind of effect doesn't do anything.
I brought up scooping in response earlier, and would like to go further into detail about it. This kind of conversation would probably be brought up two or three turns after no one can do anything, and honestly none of us would get salty about it. It happens all the time. The Grixis discard gets their "No one has hands unless they deal with X on their upkeep" combo, we scoop. The Simic value engine start going, and the pilot casts Genesis Wave for 20, we scoop. The stax player starts pulling ahead too much, we scoop. The Gitrog player gets a T2 combo going, we congratulate them and scoop.
Conceding the game is part of the game, who cares. If someone is oppressing the table for more than a few turns, we'll just move on the next game. Yeah, we could spend the next hour trying to draw one specific card (or in the case my Inalla deck, hoping that another player deals with Norn), but honestly why would we? We can recognize the incredible board state that was achieved, and just start a fresh game.
Tur on People's Thoughts on Mommy Norn?
5 months ago
Combo players, in semi-competitive, do not care about this card. It will never be a road block to their combo decks. It will die right away or be countered. Boom and that's all they wrote. Counterspell cards would be more effective against combo players.
Again, I do not care about the Yarok, the Desecrated part of the card. That really doesn't matter too much.
The problem which I have with Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is the very large amount of judge rulings, player errors, and misrepresentation which will occur.
It is inevitable these will occur.
How many times have you seen someone in your play group do any of the following actions:
- Use a fetch land or Rampant Growth while Stranglehold is in play
- Use a "Pact" card, such as Pact of Negation, and forget to pay the cost on the next upkeep
- Use Force of Vigor on their turn by exiling a green card
- Resolve a spell of X CMC into Chalice of the Void
- Forget about taking damage from City of Brass
- Forget to about cumulative upkeep abilities on Mystic Remora or Elephant Grass
- Forget to draw two cards after their spell got an Arcane Denial or add the X mana from Mana Drain
- Equip Lightning Greaves while Damping Matrix is in play
- Forget the "Ward" cost to target
- Play Swords to Plowshares for one mana into Trinisphere
- Draw before using Wild Evocation
In a casual meta takebacks are generally acceptable. Assuming not too much time or actions have past.
Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a engine for these kind of effects. Unless you're a very sticker for the rules, half the time you'll have to deal with so many takebacks. It's a headache.
I'd probably just scoop to this card if I don't have an out in-hand.
At least Winter Orb isn't going to cause massive takebacks.
Tur on People's Thoughts on Mommy Norn?
5 months ago
I agree with Sheldon to some extent.
First, it's incorrect to compare Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines's abilities to Panharmonicon and Torpor Orb. It's permanents not creatures.
(Nobody should care about the first ability, Yarok, the Desecrated is the second most popular Sultai commander and has been around forever. It's just extra stuff.)
It's the second ability which is problematic. Assume you play Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines. Not only do your permanents prevent your opponents permanents from triggering, it also prevents your opponents permanents from triggering from their own permanents. This is the first card in all of Magic: The Gathering with this effect.
Here are just some examples, I got from scrolling through the most popular commander Atraxa, Praetors' Voice on EDHREC (I do not own an Atraxa deck.) which would be effected by Elesh Norn:
- Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion
- Pir, Imaginative Rascal
- Winding Constrictor
- Astral Cornucopia / Everflowing Chalice
- Contagion Engine / Contagion Clasp
- Doubling Season
- Oath of Teferi / Oath of Nissa / Oath of Jace / etc.
- Felidar Retreat
- Saga Enchantments start at Chapter 0.
- Citadel Siege
- Bojuka Bog
Just thinking about all kinds of interactions which are possible gives me a headache.
Honestly, the Painter's Servant interactions are much easier to understand and that was a card which was banned for the interactions being too much.
If Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines had the errata to "Permanents you control entering the battlefield don't cause abilities of permanents your opponents control to trigger" it would be much more manageable.
|Have (4)||slasherturtle , metalmagic , zachi , Azdranax|
|Want (3)||Divine-Asura , XxSirKittehxX , Kildrax|