New hubs to be added
Posted on Nov. 12, 2020, 12:28 a.m. by legendofa
Hi all, I'm one of the people who adds hubs, I'm back from an unexpectedly long break, and I'm working on adding some new stuff. Suggestions I'm looking at are Uro, Mutate, Miracles, Doomsday, Adventures, Devoted Druid, and Blink. Please let me know of any other suggestions, or discussions on the ones I listed, and I'll get to work.
Also, what did I miss with the DragonShield superhero stuff?
I am a bit out of the loop in Standard, but I know Elementals have been a prominent enough tribe in Standard that they probably should have their own hub for the time being. Rogues are another tribe getting some standard buzz right now.
I do not know if the new Party mechanic is prominent enough in Standard to get its own tab, but we have a D&D themed set coming next year, which will presumably have more Party payoffs. Might be a good idea to preemptively add a Party tag.
November 12, 2020 2:35 a.m.
Not sure uro deserves his own hub. I feel that Mutate, Miracles, Adventures, and Blink definitely deserve hubs. I also agree with Caerwyn that Party will probably be prominent enough for its own hub, but maybe not right this second? Dont know enough about Doomsday or devoted druid to comment on either of those
November 12, 2020 4:13 a.m.
I'm gonna assume by Uro you mean Escape? It doesn't really see any play other than pro thou. Maybe Kroxa in standard and maybe Ox of Agonas in modern
November 12, 2020 7:20 a.m.
Doomsday stacks are definitely a thing in EDH, so it could probably be used.
I don't think Uro or Devoted Druid deserves their own hubs.
I also agree that party probably doesn't need to be added until the D&D set comes out next year.
November 12, 2020 8:29 a.m.
Rogues are getting love in EDH as well, if it means anything :)
November 12, 2020 12:26 p.m.
This may be a lot to ask, but would it be feasible to split the hubs up into two categories? One for Standard/Modern specific stuff, like bogles, elementals, uro, burn, etc. And then another category for more general/generic stuff, like aggro, control, tribal, 4-color, etc.?
I feel like that would help organize things for people. Perhaps you still only can choose 6 hubs for your decks, but now you'd have two lists to choose from? Just a thought.
November 12, 2020 1:42 p.m.
Gattison couldn't we have EDH/Pauper/Vintage/Legacy etc. specific stuff too?
November 12, 2020 2:22 p.m.
Thoughts so far:
Elementals and Rogues work for tribal additions, thanks mostly to their age and stability. I'm a little concerned about adding too many tribes as hubs, because most tribes will eventually be worth considering. Even tribes like Horse and Unicorn have been getting specific support recently. (Skeleton tribal is still a mess... Thanks a lot, non-Skeleton Death Baron...)
I won't worry about Uro and Devoted druid for now.
Party will be revisited once there's some more info on the D&D set. On the short list, but it's not at the top now.
Similar to tribal hubs, I'm a little cautious about single-set mechanics as hubs. I know that all Standard sets will have specific mechanics under the no-block model, but I think the hubs should be relatively stable. Are Standard-specific hubs like Izzet Phoenix and Solar Flare obsolete, or are they still active?
Prowess and Blitz mostly look like Burn and Aggro to me. Is there enough to make a unique hub? Would a more generic Counter Burn hub work?
Current considerations: Mutate, Miracles, Doomsday, Adventures, Blink, Elementals, Rogues, Party (TBD)
November 12, 2020 2:35 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life: Of course all formats that TO supports should be included. I just said Standard/Modern because they came to mind as popular formats. I should have said Format-specific archetypes for the first one I mentioned. I wasn't trying to show favoritism, or anything, just giving examples.
legendofa: Imho, things like goblins, soldiers, merfolk, elves, zombies, these tribes are ubiquitous in every format, and are virtually always a popular option when deckbuilding, so these should get their own hubs, as should slivers and eldrazi. Horse and unicorn tribal decks are not as common/popular, so they can use the more-general tribal hub.
As for prowess, I don't know what it is about this mechanic, but people like building around it, and searching for other decks that build around it. Including me. I personally would vote yes, it should be a hub. Plus I've seen it requested a lot. You'd be making a bunch of people happy. =)
November 12, 2020 2:53 p.m.
November 12, 2020 3:01 p.m.
It's very interesting this agrument. Everyone has different opinions. Some are for it, (e.g.GenericToaster,) some to most are against some parts of it, (I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks,) and some confuse me. (Yisan.)
I think Uro and Doomsday are very solid and could more that certainly have their own hubs, devoted druid is a maybe, but I don't think there is much else that should be added.
November 13, 2020 4:26 a.m.
I apologise for the confusion, I guess I thought the part where you were looking for "any other suggestions" meant you were looking for, you know, suggestions for hubs.
November 13, 2020 6:33 a.m.
Yisan I am looking for more suggestions for hubs. I don't guarantee I'm going to add every suggestion, but I'll at least consider it. Your Elementals suggestion has been brought up before, and your support helps put it on the list for final consideration.
November 13, 2020 9:40 a.m.
Adding votes for Blink, Elementals and Rogues.
All of those are archetypes in the groups I play with for commander, modern, casual.
November 13, 2020 4:41 p.m.
As a note, I think it might be worth avoiding adding individual cards as hubs, unless said card is defining of an archetype. Hubs exist to help with the search process and make it easier to find specific decks. The search tools already have the ability to search for individual cards, so, if you want to find a deck with a certain card, you would not need to use hubs to find those decks.
Looking at the two examples that have been raised here:
Uro - Uro is a powerful card making a splash in a lot of formats. Part of its power is Uro's versatility--he does pretty much everything you want, so is easy to slot into most any Blue-Green deck. He is a powerhouse in a lot of decks, but is not really archetype defining in his own right. As such, I think it is sufficient that users can use the "card search" option when filtering through decks; they do not need an independent Uro tag.
Doomsday - Doomsday is a powerful card, but it also is one of the most powerful archetypes in Commander and sees play in competitive environments. Doomsday is not a card you can simply slot into a deck--you need a specific build around to utilize it to maximum efficacy. As it is a format-defining archetype, it probably does deserve its own tag. I would suggest calling the tag "Doomsday Pile" rather than simply "Doomsday"--that way you are referencing the archetype not merely the individual card.
November 13, 2020 5:05 p.m.
Just gonna throw in my support for defender/walls as a somewhat popular casual strategy across multiple formats. Overgrown Battlement, Assault Formation, High Alert, Vent Sentinel, Phenax, God of Deception, Doran, the Siege Tower, Arcades, the Strategist, Towering Titan, Perimeter Captain, Rolling Stones, Tree of Redemption, and Tree of Perdition are all cards I've tried to build around at some point or another in casual, modern, standard, or commander.
November 13, 2020 8:58 p.m.
TheVectornaut I'm not sure Walls or Defender are quite right for the name. Most of the cards do have defender or are walls, but Phenax, God of Deception, Assault Formation, Doran, the Siege Tower, and several other cards only care about toughness.
High Toughness as a hub might be okay, I've seen multiple decks with the idea, but I'm not really satisified with naming it that, either.
November 14, 2020 2:06 p.m.
And I glossed over part of Assault Formation, but the others still apply.
High Toughness? Defensive? Something else?
November 14, 2020 2:08 p.m.
Booty Hub? Butt Hub?
Seriously, I think toughness matters is mostly tribal. Like Wall tribal or defender tribal. Usually those decks are still aggro stompy things with toughness in place of power.
November 14, 2020 3:33 p.m.
"Toughness Matters" is definitely an alternative name I've used before, and it does help to include a broader set of cards like Sapling of Colfenor, Kin-Tree Invocation, and Grizzled Leotau that only rarely find themselves in the average defender deck.
November 14, 2020 11:09 p.m.
The hubs Adventures, Blink, Doomsday Pile, Elementals, Miracles, Mutate, Prowess, and Rogues have been added. I also defined hubs for Rats and the individual Companion cards, that were added while I was gone.
Please take a look at
SCORE: 35 | 46 COMMENTS | 1213 VIEWS | IN 20 FOLDERS
and send me your feedback. If I missed a detail, need to clarify, mistyped something, or did an amazing job, please let me know.
November 15, 2020 12:57 a.m.
Some hubs can be removed. Many archetypes we don't use the terms anymore as they were standard decks.
Cruel Control, Energy, Loam, Solar Flare, Team America and Vehicles. Mutate will eventually go on this list too.
However there are a number of archetypes made ever since Eldraine in many formats, and many of old archetypes.
- Canadian Threshold: A legacy temur tempo deck that uses Dreadhorde Arcanist, oko and sometimes uro. Does not actually have any threshold cards.
- Fires of Invention: The card from Throne of Eldraine has its own deck in pioneer.
- Goblin Charbelcher: The card Goblin Charbelcher has had its own deck in many formats for years.
- Gruul Utopia: A gruul, land destruction, enchanting lands for ramp, aggro deck in modern.
- Hogaak: Even though the card is banned in modern its still a powerhouse in other formats. Not dredge really has it has no dredge cards.
- Jeskai Xerox: A vintage jeskai tempo deck that uses the new Lavinia that shuts down all the vintage power nine mana pieces with Dreadhorde Arcanist as value generation.
- Lotus Field: The card from M20 has its own deck in pioneer.
- MUD: A colourless artifact and land lock deck in vintage. It's been around for a while.
- Niv-Mizzet Reborn: The card from War of the Spark has its own deck in pioneer.
- Oath of Druids: A vintage 4 colour (mostly simic) combo deck.
- Omnath Ramp: Omnath, Locus of the Roil has its own deck in historic and pioneer.
- Paradoxical Storm: A vintage combo deck? Not too sure how this works but it uses Paradoxical Outcome and one copy of Monastery Mentor to win.
- Underworld Breach: The card from Theros beyond death has its own deck in ... a lot of places.
- Urza: The card from modern horizons has its own deck in modern and legacy.
I'm also wary about the number of tribal stuff we have ... eventually the list will be mostly just creature types.
If yeago didn't tell you about the DragonShield hubs as far as I'm aware there are a special event promotion that goes on with DragonShield that uses our site for deck cataloguing.
November 15, 2020 3:03 a.m. Edited.
NSFW can be removed. Rock is outdated and we mostly just call it BG midrange. Necropotence doesn't really have its own deck anywhere anymore. Now it's just a card used in edh and sometimes various highlanders. Caw Blade can probably be removed too despite how iconic that archetype was.
Rename Devotion to Devotion/Chroma. Rename Birthing Pod to Toolbox. Twin could possibly be renamed to Copycat, though that isn't a direct translation as Birthing Pod to Toolbox is.
Omnath Ramp is also in modern too apparently. Just mtgtop8 calls it uro piles, despite Omnath being the key card. I do not think Uro having its own hub is right, because Uro is basically the new goyf. The new bob. The new oko but not-banned. It's just a value card that you put in your deck because its good and not because the deck revolves around it.
November 15, 2020 3:23 a.m.
Er, mtggoldfish calls Omnath Ramp "uro piles" and mtgtop8 calls it 4colour control. I need to double check my posts more often.
November 15, 2020 3:39 a.m.
You may be able to rename some of those archetypes I've listed above to make them shorter. However this is very much a case-by-case basis and will require further input.
Goblin Charbelcher -> Belcher. Jeskai Xerox -> Xerox. Niv-Mizzet Reborn -> Niv-Mizzet. Omnath Ramp -> Omnath. Gruul Utopia -> Utopia. Fires of Invention -> Fires.
Depending on how things shape up, Winota and Wilderness Reclamation may also be archetypes to add.
More things: Amulet Bloom to be renamed Amulet Titan. Scapeshift to be renamed Scapeshift/Valakut. Affinity to be renamed Affinity/Scales. Show and Tell to be renamed Show and Tell/Breach. My suggestion of renaming Twin to CopyCat could also be CopyCat/Kiki. Though still further asks the question: "Is the twin archetype still well known enough to be used as the go to for all twin equivalent effects?"
More to add: Ad Nauseam. And old deck that still shows up in modern.
November 15, 2020 4:03 a.m.
I've been wrestling with the requirements to remove hubs, and I know there are a good handful of obsolete Standard decks. People are still building those decks, though--as a couple of examples, a deck was put in the Energy hub yesterday, and Vehicles was added to a deck two days ago. Also, Vehicles are apparently very likely to appear in the future, and Energy is a unique and distinct mechanic that doesn't fit any other hub.
The hubs I've been leaning toward removing include Cruel Control, Team America, NSFW, Solar Flare, and Caw Blade, all of which you mention. I'm also looking at Tutorless.
Cruel Control: Standard-specific; frequently misinterpreted as any punishing control deck, instead of one built around Cruel Ultimatum
Team America: frequently misinterpreted as any deck, largely covered by Sultai midrange (I believe the archetype was named before either of those terms existed)
NSFW: vague and subjective
Solar Flare: Standard-specific, little variation
Caw Blade: Standard-specific, little variation
Tutorless: only has four decks, and the most recent one came in July 2020 (every other hub has at least one addition in November)
I'll need to do some research on the new archetypes you mention, since I don't know much about Pioneer, but I like most of the Modern and Vintage suggestions. I admit to having vague standards for tribal hubs, but it helps if they have had multiple Standard presences or a significant Modern presence, can reasonably be built in EDH, and have reasonable variation while still holding to the tribal theme.
As far as renaming goes, I'm a little uncomfortable with the number of slashes. I'll look through your suggestions and take them case-by-case.
The shortened names could be helpful, but they might also reduce clarity. A new player might not know that Fires refers to a specific card, instead of a generic burn deck, or that Niv-Mizzet refers to one of the four cards with that character. My philosophy here is that the hub names be recognizable at a glance to established people and accessible to new people.
Also, thanks for the DragonShield superhero explanation.
November 15, 2020 6:17 p.m.
We'll be launching some hub improvements very soon, hopefully it changes things for the better. After deck creation we will inspect your cards for keywords and tribes and let you choose them separately from the ordinary list of hubs (provided you have 2+ of them in your deck). This should drastically reduce the "missing hubs" problem.
November 16, 2020 11:56 a.m.
All of those other than Uro are worthy of a hub tbh. Uro isnt really a deck per se, or even a type of deck. Its just a ridiculous card that makes about a million different decks better. That doesn't necessarily make them all "Uro Decks"
Personally I'd like to see a Competitive EDH Hub. More separation, easier to find help. Plus, there'd be quite a few less people giving more casual centric suggestions to decks that couldn't play em if they wanted to. Which is fine, of course. Nothing wrong with casual play, there's just some things you really can't do in cEDH.
November 16, 2020 12:09 p.m. Edited.
tough to know how that would be different than competitive edh which already garners plenty of attention
November 16, 2020 12:12 p.m.
It mostly just comes down to the fact that (in my experience, I could be wrong) it's about a million times easier to find a hub than that page. See a deck you like, click, boom you're at the hub. But that's likely just a QOL thing for me personally.
Also, is it possible to have articles or a feed INSIDE the hub rooms? Cuz i feel that would be really cool, especially for people who want to learn a format. I know a ton of people who want to get into cEDH, and a comprehensive area for guides, deck techs, and articles could work wonders for that sort of thing.
November 16, 2020 12:17 p.m.
yeah i just don't know if the flow would be that different... click on edh deck, then click on competitive if it was flagged. maybe i am missing something.
yeah we could add things there. that was the idea at first of highlighting 'primer' decks on those pages.
November 16, 2020 12:55 p.m.
Agreed on all of what was mostly recently said, especially Femme's posts!! I really think we need a Toolbox hub, since all Birthing Pod is Toolbox but not all Toolbox is birthing pod! Plus Birthing Pod is banned in Modern but Toolbox decks are very much a thing there.
I think it's a good idea to avoid single-set Standard mechanics unless they're format defining, or if only the recent ones are being done and there are plans to cycle them out once Standard rotates and they're no longer legal. Adventures might be a thing now, but once they're out of Standard I cannot see them being relevant as a deck type in other formats, for example, even if some cards still are.
Also, I'm on the pro-prowess team! Prowess is definitely not Burn (though it is an aggro deck). It's pretty much what the Red Deck Win archetype evolved into, by combining super cheap and aggressive creatures and using a Storm-like strategy with cheap Burn cards to trigger Prowess. But outside of the specific competitive archetype, I think casual deckbuilders will really enjoy being able to add the hub to their decks if they've got the mechanic in. :)
November 17, 2020 7:57 p.m.
Here's my current to-do list (non-comprehensive and subject to change):
Remove Caw Blade, Cruel Control, NSFW, Solar Flare, Team America, and Tutorless
Rename Amulet Bloom to Amulet Titan, Birthing Pod to Toolbox, Affinity to Affinity Scales (?). I thought Copycat was specifically Felidar Guardian + Saheeli Rai , but that hub could use a name change, too.
Add Ad Nauseam, Belcher, MUD, Niv-Mizzet Reborn (Niv to Light? mtggoldfish name) Oath of Druids, Omnath Ramp, Xerox
Research Pioneer decks, current range of Hogaak and Urza, mechanics of Canadian Threshold and Paradoxical Outcome (Cheerios variation? Is that name still around?)
Gruul Utopia is more or less Gruul + Land Destruction, to my eyes. I know the deck well, but does it need a unique hub?
I'm also slowing down until the hub improvements are underway.
November 17, 2020 8:48 p.m.
Request Legendary as a hub. A lot of EDH decks floating around with that theme.
November 18, 2020 1:41 p.m.
One more hub that I think may be worth considering. Wrath/Board Wipes theme.
Perhaps it's still too niche, but this is definitely a theme in EDH circles and it's probably going to become a bit more prevalent with the addition of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant.
November 18, 2020 1:46 p.m.
Massacar - I do not see the need for an independent "Wrath" hub. Though Wraths are common in EDH, they are a response to threats and a rather important part of many decks, but they are not really an independent archetype. Having a "Wrath" hub would kind of like having a "Spot Removal" hub--a tad unnecessary since any deck other than some heavily creature-reliant ones is likely going to be running a boardwipe or two.
November 18, 2020 2:04 p.m.
shadedred68 I'll take a look into that one. Would Legendary have any scope outside EDH, or is it mostly there?
Massacar That sounds a little niche right now. I'll add it to the waiting list, but I want to see how much it develops. I'm also a little concerned that it'll be slapped onto any deck with a couple of Supreme Verdicts. Is there a more specific name that would work?
ellie-is Since the block structure doesn't exist right now, pretty much every build-around Standard-legal mechanic is a single set mechanic. The best plan might be to just not create hubs specifically for standard.
On a semi-related note, evergreen mechanics are getting some pretty good support, especially with Ikoria. Does anyone have thoughts on hubs like Flying Creatures or Vigilance Creatures?
November 18, 2020 2:20 p.m.
wrath tribal is definitely a distinct and separate archetype which I have encountered before (not just pieces of deck tech), the most obvious commander being Avacyn, Angel of Hope and now Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. These sorts of deck archetypes are what I was referring to (it's even listed separately here.
legendofa as I said, it's admittedly a little niche, which is why I don't blame you for not adding it. But it is a theme that I've seen from multiple sources over the past few years.
November 18, 2020 2:58 p.m.
we have included all tribes and mechanics as hubs to simplify things.
November 18, 2020 3:09 p.m.
Thanks for the response, legendofa. I do not know if Legendary would apply much outside EDH, but it looks to be a large/growing archetype in one of the largest formats with a number of different commanders/color combinations.
November 18, 2020 3:40 p.m.
yeaGO That's an impressive list. Are you planning on having all of them be open? I don't see hubs like Baddest, or Frenzy getting much (serious) use.
shadedred68 I'll add Legendary to my "look into this" list.
November 18, 2020 3:50 p.m.
legendofa we have changed the system a little bit to inspect the deck and then allow people to opt into the tribal and mechanic hubs
November 18, 2020 4:26 p.m.
yeaGO I just checked it out and saw how it works. Now that I know what's going on, I like it. There's some duplicate tribal hubs now, though, since a good handful of tribes are preexisting hubs. Are those going to stay, or will they be removed?
November 18, 2020 4:41 p.m.
yeaGO Don't worry about that, and don't mind me. Looks like you got them all and I was seeing things.