BUG combo control

Designed to draw on the power and interactions available within BUG for incredible resilience, consistency, and brutality. Developed for a highly competitive multiplayer environment (tournament pods) but holds up extremely well in 1v1.

MTGS Thread


Infinite Mana:

  1. Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator
  2. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image

Primary Win Conditions:

  1. Deck opponent out using Blue Sun's Zenith (requires infinite mana)
  2. Bounce all permanents I don't control using Venser, Shaper Savant + Deadeye Navigator /Riptide Laboratory (requires infinite mana, latter requires infinite land untaps)

Control Interactions:

  1. Deadeye Navigator + Eternal Witness (powerful recursion engine)
  2. Deadeye Navigator + Venser, Shaper Savant (bounce engine against permanents and spells)
  3. Deadeye Navigator + Snapcaster Mage (decent recursion engine)
  4. Deadeye Navigator + Rune-Scarred Demon (powerful tutor engine)

There are far more interactions than that in the deck, but they are more dependent on board state in that they require more cards to be on the field and are easier to disrupt.

Sideboard: cards that are currently in the deck but are being considered for replacement.

Maybeboard: cards that are currently not in the deck and are being considered for inclusion.

Regarding My Meta

This deck is meant to be played in highly competitive environments. I play to win, and there are no house rules. It's by-the-books, tournament-level gameplay and the deck needs to be operating flawlessly at the highest level to survive. Therefore, I will not include any cards that lack power or synergy with the rest of the deck.

Event history:

  • May 30, 2012: 1st place - Icon's Comics & Games EDH Tournament (pod record 1st/1st/2nd)
  • (Date unknown): 1st place - Commander Pod #2, The Days of Knights
  • August 05, 2012: 1st place - Commander Pod #7, SCG Open D.C.

Other Notes

Please do NOT suggest the following cards. They are suggested all too often, and they aren't viable in this deck.

  • Forbid - Yes, I can replace the cards when Damia's ability resolves, but discarding two cards for a three-drop counterspell is not ideal. It's too disadvantageous.
  • Walk the Aeons - Yes, I can replace the lands if I have Azusa and Crucible, but sacrificing three islands is far too disadvantageous. I don't want to gamble against counterspells after losing three of the lands that would fuel my own counterspells (especially since they're likely to be dual lands), and I don't want to rely on two or more other cards being on the field to make something even remotely usable.
  • Acidic Slime - This card is too slow and expensive for what it does.
  • Lion's Eye Diamond - This card doesn't work with this deck. I don't want to discard everything to get Damia into play; if I did and Damia died or was countered, I would lose the game. It'd be too difficult to come back from having nothing in hand and no general on the battlefield.
  • Progenitor Mimic - This card doesn't benefit me at all. I don't want to spend 6 mana on something that needs to survive a turn cycle before generating lackluster advantage.
  • Prophet of Kruphix - This card doesn't offer enough advantage to justify its cost. It doesn't untap mana rocks, so it's worse than Seedborn Muse , which was already cut for being too slow.



Comment Sweep — Aug. 9, 2014

Resetting discussion.

Comment Sweep — May 4, 2014

Resetting discussion.

Comment Sweep — Oct. 26, 2013

Resetting discussion.

Comment Sweep — Aug. 9, 2013

Resetting discussion.

Comment sweep — July 11, 2013

Just resetting the discussion. The page was becoming annoyingly long.

Cleaning house — May 11, 2013

This deck is performing well, but I still feel that it should be faster and more consistent. Maybe I'm just greedy.

Speaking of greed, I have a list of cards to acquire.

More playtesting and updates, continued — April 2, 2013

I decided to drop some of the slower and more situational cards to add a major boost to my ramp package. The deck now regularly gets to turn three Damia.

More playtesting and updates — March 9, 2013

This deck keeps getting faster and faster. Recent changes:

Cryptic Command
Leyline of Anticipation
Pernicious Deed
Phyrexian Arena
Seedborn Muse
Thran Dynamo

Arcane Denial
Deathrite Shaman
Arbor Elf
Abrupt Decay
Birds of Paradise

Finally got some more playtesting done — Feb. 9, 2013

I had the opportunity today to play a couple games with this deck, and I also spent a good deal of time speaking with its codesigner. He has opted to drop many of the expensive counterspells and ramp cards in favor of their faster counterparts. He also runs a few mana dorks - a choice with which I don't necessarily agree. However, I more frequently play in multiplayer pods, so I face a higher risk of playing against sweepers.

I cut the filter lands for basics because, after talking with my friend, I realized they weren't always optimal. Running two of each basic allows me to squeeze a few extra uses out of my fetches. I also upgraded the basics into snow-covered basics in case I run into anyone using snow lands any Extraplanar Lens .

Finally, I dropped Survival of the Fittest for Lotus Cobra . I don't run enough creatures for Survival of the Fittest to really do what I need it to do, and Lotus Cobra is stupid with nine fetches, Nature's Lore , Skyshoud Claim, and three Exploration effects.

I'm considering dropping

  • Mana Web - It's limited in application, and completely irrelevant in some games.
  • Bribery - It's great when it works, but there have been many games where I didn't even cast it.
  • Mystic Snake - It has a good interaction with Deadeye Navigator , but I rarely play Deadeye Navigator outside of my combo, and Mystic Snake itself ends up being little more than an expensive counterspell.
  • Cryptic Command - Although I like Cryptic Command as a card, it's prohibitively expensive for a deck that wants to ramp and control as much as possible.
  • Fact or Fiction - I like the instant-speed card advantage, but I often find the mana cost inconvenient.
  • Leyline of Anticipation - I'm on the fence about this one. It's great to have on the field from turn 0, but it's inconvenient to cast if I ever draw it.

Comment Reset — Dec. 28, 2012

Just cleaning up the discussion a bit. At this point, there are 507 comments on this deck.

Minor Update — Nov. 25, 2012

I'm siding out Deserted Temple for Cavern of Souls on the advice of my co-designer. We play enough Wizards to make Cavern a viable inclusion.

Cleaning up comments section — Oct. 20, 2012

No major changes at this point, just sweeping the existing comments under this update. Discussion for this deck seems to be dwindling, but I still want to keep it updated and finely-tuned. I've been busy lately, but when a tourney or event rolls around, I want this deck to be ready to perform.

A Moment of Silence for Primeval Titan — Sept. 22, 2012

In the wake of the RC's horrendous decision to ban Primeval Titan , I have made the following changes to the deck:


  1. Primeval Titan
  2. Cabal Coffers (it isn't good enough without Primeval Titan to find it)
  3. Mindbreak Trap (it hasn't impressed me in the time I've been testing it)


  1. Azusa, Lost but Seeking
  2. Wasteland
  3. Necropotence

Minor deck updates — Sept. 3, 2012

Just made a few minor edits and tucked all comments to clean things up.

First major overhaul in progress. — Aug. 16, 2012

Dropping some of the cards I've come to question for some cards that hold the Promise of Power .


  1. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
  2. Vedalken Orrery
  3. Sphinx of Magosi
  4. Decree of Pain
  5. Increasing Ambition


  1. Mystic Remora
  2. Life from the Loam
  3. Scroll Rack
  4. Intuition
  5. Mystical Teachings

Epochalyptik says... #1

Deck has been updated a bit. Dropped Time Stretch and Utopia Sprawl ; added Spell Pierce and Carpet of Flowers .

I'd like to fit Diabolic Intent in here somewhere. That probably means dropping a counterspell.

August 9, 2014 3:32 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #2

I havent found diabolic intent to be a high achiever. Its dependent on multiple conditions being fulfilled which makes it tricky.

August 9, 2014 3:35 p.m.

miracleHat says... #3

I could see dropping Mental Misstep for Diabolic Intent . I actually really like that tutor because it replaces a not so good creature for a much better card for the situation that you are in. also, Mental Misstep is the most restricted counterspell that you have in here (i think).

August 9, 2014 3:39 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #4

Its dependent on both you having the tutor and a creature. Doesnt always happen. Having a dead card is bad times.

August 9, 2014 3:40 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #5

The intent is to sacrifice one of the utility creatures for the tutor, but I do need to protect Diabolic Intent itself; it's the kind of card opponents would love to counter in order to 2-for-1 me.

August 9, 2014 3:43 p.m.

GlistenerAgent says... #6

Is Spell Pierce all that useful with every deck (usually) having access to lots of mana? In 60 card decks drawing it too late is terrible, and obviously with larger decks you're even less likely to have it when it matters.

Like ChiefBell said, Diabolic Intent requires you to have a creature, and it's quite conceivable that you won't have one in play.

A couple of suggestions. I feel like a combo that requires fewer individual cards to win might be strong. Voltaic Key untaps mana rocks, and of course you can combo it with Time Vault . Did you feel that those cards were too weak individually to be in the deck?

I also feel that certain planeswalkers may be helpful to your attrition strategy. Vraska the Unseen kills anything you want her to. Liliana Vess is Vampiric Tutor on a stick. Nissa, Worldwaker and Garruk Wildspeaker , while more combat-oriented, can provide needed ramp in case you feel you don't have enough. If you want to go for the Key-Vault combo, Tezzeret the Seeker is great, and he still finds mana otherwise. Those are the ones I found to be at all relevant, but there are plenty of others obviously.

August 9, 2014 3:46 p.m.

miracleHat says... #7

It might also run into the problem that Survival of the Fittest had. "Finally, I dropped Survival of the Fittest for Lotus Cobra . I don't run enough creatures for Survival of the Fittest to really do what I need it to do," (epoch). I never thought about the 2-1 business with that card, hmm. Also, could the argument be made for Riftsweeper ? you have five cards in the deck that exile your own cards (counterspell fodder, flashback, yawgmoth). it can also bring back exiled Palinchron /Deadeye Navigator combo pieces along with what you have exiled.

August 9, 2014 3:49 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #8

All of those are kind of high mana though. Although Tezzeret can come in and immediately get something onto the field which is very useful.

August 9, 2014 3:51 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #9

Sorry that was referring to the planeswalkers.

August 9, 2014 3:51 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #10

thispersonisagenius - Epoch has said that he doesnt like combo pieces that are useless on their own so I doubt that the artifacts will make it in. And as much as I love Tezzeret he doesnt have much to tutor up at the moment.

August 9, 2014 3:55 p.m.

miracleHat says... #11

If it had blue in it, you could make use of it with Force of Will /Misdirection fodder, but that is not the case.

August 9, 2014 3:59 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #12

@thispersonisagenius: Spell Pierce is good because it's effective in counter wars. It's not optimal, but it's good.

I generally do have a few creatures on the battlefield because I use several of my creatures for utility. I can justify sacrificing a Birds of Paradise or Azusa, Lost but Seeking to find a combo piece.

Also, Time Vault is definitely banned in EDH, so there's that.

There is no attrition strategy in this deck. The focus is shutting people down and comboing out as soon as possible. The only planeswalker that's remotely useful in this deck is Jace, the Mind Sculptor , which makes the cut because it's a toolboxing engine and pairs very well with fetches.

@miracleHat: Riftsweeper would only be useful in a few fringe cases, and it's generally not important enough to be able to recover exiled cards. I just play around the disadvantage.

August 9, 2014 4:01 p.m.

rathalos3000 says... #13

What do you think of Mirri's Guile ? It's a good 1-drop and works well with the fetches.

August 9, 2014 4:10 p.m.

I would suggest adding Hurkyl's Recall and Tezzeret the Seeker . Hurkyl's Recall has enormous blowout potential and Tezzeret the Seeker can generate large amounts of mana quickly and tutor for other mana rocks.

I would cut Remand and Utopia Sprawl . Both these cards seem to week except in certain situations. Utopia Sprawl fails to be useful as a topdeck late game and Remand against combos but cannot adequately defend a combo against a dedicated attack.

August 9, 2014 5:04 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #15

@lordoftheshadows: Utopia Sprawl has already been dropped; I cut it for Carpet of Flowers , but I guess the change was never saved.

Hurkyl's Recall is kind of underwhelming. Optimistically, it's a Time Walk . However, mana rocks are easy to play off of one another, so it really doesn't gain me too much. It's especially underwhelming in multiplayer, where I can only inconvenience a single opponent at the expense of two mana and a card.

Tezzeret the Seeker might have a shot if it cost 2UU, but at 3UU, it's too steep to fit properly into this deck.

Remand is strong because it helps delay critical plays in a resource-intensive format, and it cantrips. It's not always a hard counter, but it works in many situations.

@rathalos3000: I considered Mirri's Guile a while ago, but I opted not to include it because it doesn't actually draw me any cards. The effect is certainly good, but I have to ask whether it's good enough.

August 9, 2014 5:44 p.m.

rathalos3000 says... #16

Another suggestion: I would rather play Toxic Deluge than Damnation , it costs 1 less and destroys even indestructible creatures and creatures with regenerate. And I remember reading, that lifeloss is not very important.

August 9, 2014 5:50 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #17

I haven't been able to test Toxic Deluge because I don't own a copy. It's on my list of cards to get.

August 9, 2014 5:52 p.m.

Eulemann says... #18

Conjurer's Closet would work with your creatures' enter the battlefield triggers especially with Eternal Witness and Rune-Scarred Demon .

Have you ever considered any mill in the deck? Lotus Cobra + Mind Grind would seem to work well with multiple land drops every turn, plus possibly an Archeomancer to get it back.

August 10, 2014 1:34 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #19

@Eulemann: Conjurer's Closet is too slow for this deck. I don't play my win conditions as normal cards. Rune-Scarred Demon will never be on the battlefield unless I'm winning that turn.

Mill is a bad win condition in competitive decks, especially in competitive multiplayer. It isn't a solid win condition, and it should be considered a liability until it "wins" because it doesn't actually prevent the opponent from doing anything in the meantime.

Although suggestions are appreciated, please remember that this deck is a tournament-level deck that is designed to be as fast and efficient as possible. Suggestions should be tailored to a cutthroat meta and a need for ruthless speed and efficiency.

August 10, 2014 1:54 a.m.

I would add more removal. Maybe Doom Blade . I would also add Chasm Skulker . It's great against removal, works well with your commander, and if left alone, can be very dangerous even if they have removal.

August 10, 2014 4:03 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #21

@biggestmtgnerd: Removal is one of the things this deck lacks, but I don't think Doom Blade fits the bill. Many important creatures are black. The problem is that there are so few kill effects I could run without being too limited, and those effects are generally pretty expensive.

Chasm Skulker is generally bad in EDH. It's expensive to cast, small as a threat, and doesn't have relevant abilities. Tokens, and combat as a whole, are unimportant in a combo-based format.

August 10, 2014 4:23 a.m.

Traveler247 says... #22

Has Storm Crow been suggested yet? If not, I'm gonna go in as the one to suggest it, because Storm Crow ends games just by hitting the table. It's more powerful than Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator in play with a blue sun in hand. So yeah, I'd recommend that card. Totally worth it for 2 mana.

In all seriousness though, I'm surprised Scroll Rack didn't make it into your list. I saw that you added it, but I don't see it in the deck.

I'm also wandering about the possibility of Entomb and/or Reanimate . Certainly, it has exactly three useful interactions with the graveyard (grab strip mine if crucible is out, grab whatever if you have yawgmoth's will or eternal witness), which makes entomb less than stellar, but it is a 1-mana instant speed tutor. I can see it being useful with a few more graveyard strategies, but I don't know if any of that is powerful enough to merit space in the deck.Reanimate can grab a fallen opposing consecrated sphinx, vorinclex, etc, and for 1 mana that's fairly powerful. That being said, I don't play competitive enough to know how often that circumstance is met, so I can't really judge the value of the card.

Do you need any graveyard hate? I'm truly surprised that isn't more relevant in competitive. against many decks stopping their combo is a simple as a tormod's crypt or nihil spellbomb. If you want to really do it well, you can go with a relic of progenitus. It seems like having at least one piece of graveyard hate would serve your deck well, but again, I don't know competitive EDH, so that could be completely wrong.

Also, just because it would be hilarious, would you please, just once, put in a knowledge pool and whip out the old knowledge pool/teferi combo against someone? That would seriously be the funniest thing ever. Just once. Just for the story. And make sure they know your deck.

Lastly, I would like to suggest Chimney Imp . This card is right up there with storm crow on the table of deadly cards, so I definitely think you should run it. It's kind of like tooth and nail in that it wins you the game immediately, but it has a lower mana cost.

August 10, 2014 9:28 a.m.

Deathrite Shaman is banned dude

August 10, 2014 1:30 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #24

@Traveler247: Scroll Rack was cut. It's a good card, but it's just not good enough in this deck. It had some applications, and the interaction with the fetch lands was nice, but it wasn't a necessity.

Entomb won't make the cut because my graveyard interactions are fairly limited.

Reanimate is certainly a good card, but it's also limited. I don't like having to depend on there being something useful in a graveyard when I'm trying to combo out on turn four or five. For the same reason, graveyard hate is not strictly necessary. Yes, there are some graveyard-based strategies, but counterspells work as a general-purpose answer to both those and normal strategies.

August 10, 2014 1:45 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #25

@Traps_and_Spells: DRS is banned in Modern. It's perfectly legal in EDH.

August 10, 2014 1:46 p.m.

miracleHat says... #26

Looking at your maybeboard, i saw Trickbind . I thought that the cost was too prohibitive. Has that changed?

August 10, 2014 3:32 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #27

Trickbind 's cost has never been objectively prohibitive, I'll admit, but in comparison to Stifle , it's a little higher. It's a matter of testing whether the split second and full-turn shutdown is worth the extra mana.

August 10, 2014 4:10 p.m.

enpc says... #28

You've had Worldly Tutor on your sideboard for a while now - have you ever given it a playtest? Also, have you given a thought as to what cards you would run in your wishboard?

August 10, 2014 8:51 p.m.

enpc says... #29

Sorry bout that, I meant Living Wish ....

August 10, 2014 8:51 p.m.

Have you considered adding Cabal Coffers to go nuts with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth . You could also add Crop Rotation to find matchup specific cards like Boseiju, Who Shelters All combo cards like Riptide Laboratory .

August 10, 2014 9:04 p.m.

Orbrunner says... #31

Cabal Coffers was cut when Primeval Titan was banned.

August 10, 2014 9:12 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #32

@lordoftheshadows: See the Primeval Titan update.

Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is certainly a strong ramp interaction, but Cabal Coffers is useless on its own in this deck, and I'd only ever want to play it if Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth were on the battlefield.

August 10, 2014 9:21 p.m.

Nigeltastic says... #33

Is the reason for no Merchant Scroll (instead of Mystical Teachings ) because of Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir ?

August 10, 2014 9:23 p.m.

Regarding Living Wish in your maybe board: since there are no sideboards in EDH, are you able to fetch any legal cards you have with you?

August 10, 2014 9:44 p.m.

Ohthenoises says... #35

aeonstoremyliver Most competitive metas that I have heard about institute a 10 card sideboard.

August 10, 2014 9:46 p.m.

There are in fact sideboards in EDH @aeonstoremyliver. There is an optional sideboard rule that is endorsed by the creators of EDH which can be found here.

August 10, 2014 9:46 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #37

@Nigeltastic: Partially. The other major thing is that Mystical Teachings has flashback, which means I can use it to find Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or Vampiric Tutor (Merchant Scroll can only find blue instants), then find Blue Sun's Zenith . Merchant Scroll is also a sorcery, which is not ideal. Demonic Tutor gets away with being a sorcery because it finds any card and has no reveal restriction.

@aeonstoremyliver: In casual EDH, wishes typically work the same as they do in casual 60-card (which is to say you can find any card from your collection). However, competitive EDH typically follows the EDH sideboarding rules (which allow you to pre-board after commanders are revealed, and allow you to wish only for cards in your sideboard).

August 10, 2014 10:13 p.m.

Gotcha. Thanks gents!

August 10, 2014 10:17 p.m.

TheCommonFig says... #39

I would suggest testing Pongify or Rapid Hybridization . I think they're the only two creature removal spells worth testing at this point. At the very least, you could use them to destroy utility creatures at the low cost of U. As for what to remove to make room for one of them, I'm leaning toward Mental Misstep . It may be a free counter, and a good one when it hits, but it really sucks when no one is playing 1cmc spells and it's dead in your hand. There will always be something to hit with Pongify , even if it's less than ideal, but the same is not true of Mental Misstep . It's still worth testing Mental Misstep as it could be more useful than I imagine (for example, it counters 22% of your decklist), but I don't foresee it staying in the deck long-term.

I was also wondering about Homeward Path . Is it common for creatures to be stolen in competitive games? I can't think of any creature theft card worth playing aside from maybe Gilded Drake . I don't know how often people try to destroy your creatures, but Yavimaya Hollow might be a better option than Homeward Path if you think creature destruction is more common than creature theft. I know you generally have counters to protect from either occurrence, but I think it's worth considering.

August 12, 2014 12:13 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #40

@TheCommonFig: I use Pongify and Rapid Hybridization in another one of my EDH decks, and I don't know how I feel about them in this deck. They're probably worth testing because I have little removal in this deck, and you're probably right about testing them over Mental Misstep . I will say, however, that Mental Misstep is key for countering many important counterspells as well as Sol Ring , Vampiric Tutor , Mana Vault , Sensei's Divining Top , Carpet of Flowers , and Exploration .

Homeward Path falls under the "nice just in case, but not a big deal" category. I was considering the idea of moving some of the less important utility lands to the sideboard and adding Living Wish to find them or an alternate win condition, but that idea never got past brainstorming. I think we kind of stopped discussing it.

August 12, 2014 12:30 a.m.

imarockyou says... #41

What do u get with Intuition ?

August 13, 2014 10:11 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #42

@imarockyou: Because I can't miss the opportunity to use this response: it's largely intuitive. Sometimes I use it to find three free counterspells. Sometimes I find three tutors. It depends largely on the situation.

That's part of why redundancy is such a big deal in this deck. Redundancy increases resilience and allows me to take advantage of Intuition .

August 13, 2014 11:06 a.m.

Broliver says... #43

How about Submerge ? In my meta, there is usually one other opponent that plays forests. In response to a fetch or a tutor, it can be fired on a general or large opposing creature threat, causing em to shuffle it into the deck.

August 18, 2014 2:23 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #44

@Broliver: Submerge isn't without its applications, but I have my doubts about its strength. I wonder whether the effect is really necessary.

Part of the problem with not being able to regularly playtest is that I have a harder time telling what is and isn't viable anymore.

August 18, 2014 3:48 p.m.

miracleHat says... #45

@Epochalyptik: Submerge doesn't have to get rid of creatures. You can save an important combo creature and just draw it again and combo off the next turn.

August 18, 2014 6:56 p.m.

imarockyou says... #46

Is it your job to win before the Reanimator player sets up his/her combo? I'm asking this because i do not see a Scavenging Ooze

August 20, 2014 10:39 a.m.

atgarnett says... #47

imarockyou he can tutor up DS

August 20, 2014 12:29 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #48

I don't often find myself in need of graveyard hate. Counterspells serve as a general-purpose answer to many strategies, including reanimator. They won't catch everything, but they're more flexible then running answers to single strategies.

My stance might be different if I were exposed to reanimator-heavy metas, but you also have to account for the fact that counterspells make up a significant portion of the deck and are therefore a widely available answer to multiple kinds of threats.

August 20, 2014 3:23 p.m.

Traveler247 says... #49

In your description, you mention Time Stretch, but it appears to be cut from the deck.

August 24, 2014 4:48 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #50

Good catch. I recently removed Time Stretch from this list in favor of some other cards.

August 26, 2014 11:08 p.m.

imarockyou says... #51

You going to play Sultai Charm?

August 30, 2014 11:57 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #52

Probably not. It's too expensive for what it does.

August 31, 2014 12:04 a.m.

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$2874.06 $3374.19 $5267.93
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Date added 2 years
Last updated 6 days

This deck is Commander / EDH legal.

Cards 100
Avg. CMC 2.61
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Top rank #2 on 2012-08-19

Last update 2 weeks ago

+1 Rapid Hybridization maybe
+1 Pongify maybe

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