- 1x Ancient Tomb
- 1x Bayou
- 1x Bloodstained Mire
- 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
- 1x Breeding Pool
- 1x Cavern of Souls
- 1x Cephalid Coliseum
- 1x Command Tower
- 1x Drowned Catacomb
- 1x Flooded Strand
- 1x Forbidden Orchard
- 1x Gaea's Cradle
- 1x Hinterland Harbor
- 1x Marsh Flats
- 1x Misty Rainforest
- 1x Overgrown Tomb
- 1x Polluted Delta
- 1x Reflecting Pool
- 1x Reliquary Tower
- 1x Riptide Laboratory
- 1x Scalding Tarn
- 2x Snow-Covered Forest
- 2x Snow-Covered Island
- 1x Snow-Covered Swamp
- 1x Strip Mine
- 1x Tolaria West
- 1x Tropical Island
- 1x Underground Sea
- 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- 1x Verdant Catacombs
- 1x Volrath's Stronghold
- 1x Wasteland
- 1x Watery Grave
- 1x Windswept Heath
- 1x Wooded Foothills
- 1x Blue Sun's Zenith
- 1x Consecrated Sphinx
- 1x Crucible of Worlds
- 1x Deathrite Shaman
- 1x Demonic Tutor
- 1x Eternal Witness
- 1x Green Sun's Zenith
- 1x Imperial Seal
- 1x Intuition
- 1x Lim-Dul's Vault
- 1x Mystic Remora
- 1x Mystical Teachings
- 1x Mystical Tutor
- 1x Necropotence
- 1x Phantasmal Image
- 1x Sensei's Divining Top
- 1x Snapcaster Mage
- 1x Sylvan Library
- 1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
- 1x Vampiric Tutor
- 1x Yawgmoth's Will
- 1x Arbor Elf
- 1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
- 1x Birds of Paradise
- 1x Burgeoning
- 1x Carpet of Flowers
- 1x Dark Ritual
- 1x Deathrite Shaman
- 1x Exploration
- 1x Grim Monolith
- 1x Kiora's Follower
- 1x Lotus Cobra
- 1x Mana Crypt
- 1x Mana Vault
- 1x Mox Diamond
- 1x Nature's Lore
- 1x Oracle of Mul Daya
- 1x Skyshroud Claim
- 1x Sol Ring
- 1x Three Visits
- 1x Arcane Denial
- 1x Counterspell
- 1x Cyclonic Rift
- 1x Dispel
- 1x Flusterstorm
- 1x Force of Will
- 1x Mana Drain
- 1x Misdirection
- 1x Nature's Claim
- 1x Negate
- 1x Pact of Negation
- 1x Remand
- 1x Spell Pierce
- 1x Stifle
- 1x Swan Song
- 1x Toxic Deluge
- 1x Venser, Shaper Savant
- 1x Autumn's Veil
- 1x Displace
- 1x Fatal Push
- 1x Living Wish
- 1x Mana Leak
- 1x Mental Misstep
- 1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
- 1x Miscalculation
- 1x Muddle the Mixture
- 1x Negate
- 1x Phyrexian Tower
- 1x Pongify
- 1x Rapid Hybridization
- 1x Reality Shift
- 1x Reanimate
- 1x Reverent Silence
- 1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
- 1x Trickbind
- 1x Unsubstantiate
- 1x Yavimaya Hollow
Comments View Archive
ooop333 This deck uses Palinchron to win, so it really needs a good number of lands on the battlefield. With only 3 or 4 lands it's difficult to combo, that's why the land count has to be so high and why cards like Azusa are required.
February 16, 2017 6:47 p.m.
February 16, 2017 6:57 p.m.
@ooop333: This deck is designed to operate on a lands-matter win condition, where it needs a sufficient number of lands in play in order to make Palinchron or Peregrine Drake functional. Therefore, the deck leverages additional land plays and includes more lands than other competitive decks. I don't think it's productive enough to cut cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Burgeoning given that focus. I haven't had great luck running a leaner land base, either, but I suppose it could be worth testing again.
For cards like Paradox Engine and Aetherflux Reservoir, consider the points I outline in the "Criteria for card selection" chapter of the primer. These cards are expensive and don't offer much to the deck in light of their costs. Paradox Engine is hard to fit into the deck's curve (the CMC 4-5 range is actually very difficult to play around) and its usefulness is only directly proportional to the number of mana rocks and land/permanent untappers I have on the field. Aetherflux Reservoir doesn't do anything particularly useful; it would only be viable as a win condition (as opposed to a utility card), and it isn't nearly as strong as the other win conditions in the deck.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a possible substitute commander. I'm less sure if it would be part of the 99; I have no experience using the card. If you have experience with it, please share what you've found.
I generally don't like cards like Windfall or Timetwister in this deck. There's a reasonable amount of draw power available, and I'm able to keep my hand full (or close to it) most of the time. I hesitate to spend at sorcery speed to refill my opponents' hands.
@Emzed: Regarding Illusionist's Stratagem (from an earlier comment), I think the limited targeting options and the extra cost outweigh the cantrip effect. I'm comfortable enough with the redundancy in the deck and with Ghostly Flicker's ability to fulfill its role that I can justify not including Illusionist's Stratagem. Others' mileage may vary, though; it's an interesting alternative/insurance policy for those who find themselves in need of one.
February 16, 2017 10:46 p.m.
Has Foil been suggested? I feel a competitive, low curve deck like this would dream of having as many zero cost counter spells as possible. Also, this commander in particular is excellent at drawing the cards needed.
February 16, 2017 10:58 p.m.
I'm not sure if it's been considered before, but given the low count of Islands in this deck, I don't think there's enough support to make it work.
February 16, 2017 11:05 p.m.
Epochalyptik I don't know about you, but my competitive playgroup is almost completely made up of storm and combo decks that want to draw most of their deck in a single turn. Leovold is an include in pretty much any deck I make that uses the colors because he hoses their draw, works with wheel effects to twist their hands away, and replaces himself if removal is used on him.
February 17, 2017 11:33 a.m.
Epoch, when playing blue sun's for utility, what's the most you draw for? Do you simply leave open the room for counterspells in hand and go in, or do you have a set plan in mind?
February 21, 2017 9:55 p.m.
Epoch, when playing blue sun's for utility, what's the most you draw for? Do you simply leave open the room for counterspells in hand and go in, or do you have a set plan in mind?
February 21, 2017 9:56 p.m.
Epoch, honest opinion on seedborn muse? I have this deck card for card, and i took out green sun's for Villainous Wealth, but thinking about adding seedborn and re-adding green sun's, what do you think?
February 24, 2017 11:26 a.m.
XxFATMAN247xX: Both of those cards are covered in the description under "omissions".
February 24, 2017 7:01 p.m.
This has probably been asked already but why no one mana cantrips like ponder/preordain etc.? Don't they generally just raise consistency?
March 5, 2017 12:05 a.m.
Hey man, I really love the deck. There are a few cards you should consider adding to the deck though : Countersquall- Counters a spell like Negate, but also takes 2 life from the opponent. Havengul Lich- Brings back any of the creatures important to your combo by paying 1 colorless mana more. Oh, and he also let's you cast every creature from your opponents graveyards too (as long as you have the other colors of mana). Massacre Wurm- He's a big body that can sweep your opponents creatures and gain you life as well. Two other considerations would be Rakshasa Deathdealer and Beast Within.
March 7, 2017 12:52 a.m.
@Silverf1sh: It depends. I know that's not a great answer, but control decks must be played contextually, and there are really no hard rules for things like Blue Sun's Zenith. Generally, though, I'll use it as a utility card and leave /X up. I try to cast it when most players are tapped down to reduce the change of interference.
@XxFATMAN247xX: I don't play either of those cards for the reasons stated in the primer. They're slow, expensive, and not impactful enough for their costs.
@Pyromancer999: It's true that cantrips generally raise consistency, but they don't make enough of an impact. In a deck clamoring for tutors, counterspells, and ramp, I'm hard-pressed to include "throwaway" spells that replace themselves for only minor benefit. The amount of raw draw and tutor power, plus the shuffle effects, reduces how important cards like Ponder might be.
@budlaorf: This deck is built on a philosophy of efficient, high-impact cards. The cards you mentioned don't really jive with that.
Countersquall's cost is completely saturated, meaning I must pay to cast it (as opposed to /X). This deck wins through combos, and there's really little reason to ping people for 2 life in the interim.
Havengul Lich is expensive and doesn't really do enough to justify paying . This deck also does not play combo creatures ahead of time, so those cards are rarely in the graveyard. I feel I have sufficient alternatives and recursion in case they do ever hit the yard.
Massacre Wurm is very expensive for a board wipe in these colors, and, as I mentioned above, I don't really need to make opponents lose life before I combo. And because I don't really need to attack with this deck, the fact that it's a 6/5 is kind of irrelevant.
Rakshasa Deathdealer has no utility abilities; it's just a 2/2 that can attack or block.
Beast Within was cut from the deck earlier because it was expensive to cast. It's good enough that it could still see inclusion in variations of this deck, but I never cared for casting it.
March 7, 2017 8:34 a.m.
@ Epochalyptik Love the deck man!! your primer imo is one of the best i've read.
as to making Leovold, Emissary of Trest your commander, how often do you cast damia? i think that if it weren't for damia being the long-standing figurehead of the deck, I would recommend leovold as an alternate commander, as he can come out as early as turn 2 and dominate the board, while you pile up card advantage.
keep up the good work! i'd hate to see you stop editing this deck and making it even better!
March 14, 2017 10:40 a.m.
@VraskaTheCursed: Thank you.
Damia and Leovold are both good cards. Both have good abilities. My main problem with Damia all this time has been the cost.
Leovold certainly fixes that issue: it's not prohibitively expensive to cast (or recast). However, I do wonder whether the card advantage is comparable. The reason Damia was successful in this shell is that it replaces the cards spent building advantage in the first few turns. Having not tested Leovold, I'm unfamiliar with how much card advantage it actually generates.
March 14, 2017 12:17 p.m.
I don't think you can count on Leovold drawing you the 3+ cards that Damia can usually provide (if she sticks). While he will draw the occasional card, and sometimes multiples, most of his power lies in his disruptive ability. Many combo decks don't work with him on the board, and you have plenty of counters to make sure he stays. This anti-draw ability also allows you to generate massive card advantage/disruption with wheel effects. His second ability, however, is great if someone tries to kill you with Tendrils of Agony or Brain Freeze (each storm copy triggers Leovold separately), since you can just draw cards until you find Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap.
March 14, 2017 1:57 p.m.
@ Epochalyptik i agree that damia's ability is grossly powerful and adept at refilling your hand. i think the way leovold generates card advantage is not just drawing you cards (although this he will certainly do), but by limiting your opponents' draws. because your opponents will NEVER draw more than 1 card per turn with leovold out, it's safe to say that you will always have more options, considering the amount of draw in this deck. another reason to consider leovold is that he is an active card-advantage generator as soon as he hits the field, whereas with damia you have to wait a turn to start reaping her benefits.
that being said, this deck could certainly perform incredibly well with both generals, it probably comes down to personal perference
March 14, 2017 3:45 p.m.
What about Heroic Intervention? It's a good cheap way to protect your permanents from a board wipe.
March 15, 2017 10:21 p.m.
March 16, 2017 12:34 a.m.
Alright, one last recommendation would be Ertai's Meddling. It can really screw with your opponents timing, counters any counterspell for 1 blue and 1 of any color, and is one of the only ways I know of to at least delay a spell that can't be countered such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
March 16, 2017 6:59 p.m.
@budlaorf wouln't a hard counter with a different drawback be better? if x is more than 1 it just is worse than Counterspell or Arcane Denial, considering the amount of mana fixing in this deck. plus Delay is a better version, except for uncounterable spells of course
March 16, 2017 7:22 p.m.
If you were going to run another counterspell, I would have thought that Unsubstantiate would be the next in the list as it doubles as creature removal.
March 16, 2017 9:12 p.m.
Would it be viable to stick a Leovold in the 99 of this Damia deck? I know it technically doesn't fit into any of your requirements, but it's nearly guaranteed card advantage on top of disrupting your opponents tempo. You're already running enough counter spells to protect it. It doesn't seem like it's diluting your deck to the point where it slows down your gameplan.
March 19, 2017 4:49 p.m.
Leovold is an interesting consideration, however, his first ability disrupts the main win condition for this deck, as your opponents will not be able to draw more than one card during your turn, forcing you to find ways to deal with your own creature during or right before the combo-turn. So I believe it's counter-intuitive to play him in this deck at all.
March 20, 2017 4:10 a.m.
very true - didn't even realize that. that's too bad, leovold would have been beast in this deck
March 20, 2017 6:25 a.m.
Well, generally you would attempt to draw your own deck to maximize the options you have in hand, then start eliminating opponents. Going that route, you'd more than likely have a way to bounce or otherwise remove Leovold, Emissary of Trest before attempting to combo someone out of the game.
March 20, 2017 9:07 a.m.
Epochalyptik, I've been using Leovold, Emissary of Trest since it was released in my deck, absolutely love it I find it gives me a great advantage, However, be wary of clones as clones of leovold flat-out shut damia down until dealt with.
March 20, 2017 10:12 p.m.
March 23, 2017 11:57 p.m.
budlaorf: Check the omissions section of the primer. There's a write up about why it's not run.
March 24, 2017 4:07 a.m.
You might try adding Reality Shift from the Maybeboard. It could be that as Prime Speaker Zegana is my general, it feels very consistent drawing my library to hit the palinchrombo, Eternal Witness, Forbidden Orchard, and Reality Shift. but I find that since having it in there, I have been relying on it as my win con even over the typical blue sun's, venser attrition, and otherwise. Not to mention, it's a sweet utility card as is. I tend to use it to pop Linvala, Keeper of Silence and the like outside of the combo.
March 26, 2017 12:23 a.m.
Silverf1sh, Krosan Grip totally is meta dependent. I agree with Epochalyptik it's usually not worth it. Especially in my meta where people love morph creatures, and Voidmage Apprentice can counter a split second card
March 26, 2017 7:06 p.m.
Any chance of including Thought-Knot Seer? It's a decent disruptive card and a solid win condition: Flicker it to make your opponents draw their decks. If you stack everything correctly, there are very few ways to interact, even if they draw their whole deck (Time Stop and Summary Dismissal aren't exactly cards you need to play around, but Brain Freeze could become dangerous, as could a way to play Tendrils of Agony at instant speed).
If you have no trouble finding BSZ every time you go infinite, you don't need the Eldrazi as a finisher, but otherwise it might be a decent back-up.
April 3, 2017 9:11 a.m.
Summoning Trap for counter spell heavy metas? It costs zero while digging 7 and possibly plays a win con for free. Who knows, it might find the combo card you need.
Or is it better to draw a 2 mana counter spell that you may not be able to afford casting?
April 8, 2017 11:48 p.m.
Dankey: Summoning Trap might fit certain metas, but in the case of this deck, it's high of a possibility to be a dead card. with damia out, you can essentially draw in your win con, with that card in hand. Or you could just never get it's trigger. In my opinion, it's just not efficient enough for this deck.
April 9, 2017 10:46 a.m.
A big reason why I brought it up is because a lot of people tend to wait for you to cast your commander to use their counter spells and removal. Without being able to bring Damia out long enough for your upkeep to trigger, you're not getting enough tempo that you otherwise could get. Worst case scenario it digs 7 for 0. I think it could be justified if you're seen as a potential threat in a 3 or more player game. 1v1 it may be a different story.
The fact that it's not guaranteed to do more than bury 7 cards to the bottom of your library is probably a good enough reason to not play it. Although I personally like the dig effect, maybe you have enough tutors where it's unnecessary. I tend to see it as a free cantrip.
April 9, 2017 3:29 p.m.
The problem with Summoning Trap is that it requires a very specific set of conditions to be useful. You have to cast a creature, have it countered, basically hit Palinchron with it and have the other half of the combo in hand.
While it's cute to use it as a contingency if Damia gets countered, a) the deck already runs a bunch of zero and one CMC counter spells to protect her, b) the deck runs Cavern of Souls to stop her from getting countered and c) you'd be better off just running a wheel like Timetwister to give you more momentum. Or Dig Through Time which potentially costs 2 mana to hit any two cards.
April 9, 2017 5:42 p.m.
How does this deck stand up to stuff like Nath/stax?
April 11, 2017 7:43 p.m.
Also, how do you deal with simple faceaggro? Even if I'm not directly focused by, for example, Saskia, it still seems like I get a lot of hits in just because I'm the only one without a decent board.
April 12, 2017 9:13 p.m.
So I have questioned Consecrated Sphinx. It feels like there are other draw sources that can achieve a similar outcome of drawing a lot of cards. I couldn't name any of them to be honest with you though. I am curious if anyone has felt the same at some point. Consecrated Sphinx is a 6 drop and paints a large target on yourself. While yes it can draw an absurd amount of cards and a 4/6 flyer. I find it very hard to devote a turn to it unless it happens on turn 2 or 3 and there is very little to no chance that it can be answered timely. Maybe I am missing something but it doesn't feel like "best in slot,"for lack of a better phrase, that it used to be.
April 26, 2017 4:37 a.m.
Have you considered Stroke of Genius? it seems to me that the 2 colorless and one blue would out way Blue sun's shuffle ability.
April 27, 2017 2:21 p.m.
April 27, 2017 11:29 p.m.
Hey Epoch, what're your thoughts on Timetwister? It lets you vomit your early game ramp into play and then quickly restock your hand. The graveyard recursion is also nice if you're forced to discard a combo piece / TaN for some reason.
April 28, 2017 12:57 a.m.
Nice deck going on here!
plus 1 from my side for sure :) Yeah, so let's get down to business. I love combo decks with low CMC, though I am not so much a fan of infinite combos - but who I am to talk with abzan company in modern and rhys the redeemed infinite combos in EDH.
So, what about replacing Arbor Elf with Crop Rotation? Helps to get the right utility lands in no time with that many tutors available in this decklist. Or cut one land. I mean, you have 37 lands while having a CMC of 2.48 and are playing just three colors. I guess you went down with CMC quiet a bit over time - maybe you didn't with the lands?
Then did you ever consider playing Holistic Wisdom as recursion? You got 23 instants, 37 lands and 17 creatures. Apart from just the obvious recursion you could play like Strip Mine several times a turn in combination with Azusa, Lost but Seeking/Oracle of Mul Daya/Exploration. Furthermore it's another ability you can use at instant speed and honestly, I am envious about your commander - she's just asking to trade unsuitable cards in hands with powerhouses in your graveyard ;)
Also taken exactly your commander's ability into account Commandeer might be something for you in order to steal problematic and important spells like let's say your enemies commander. I would sort out Spell Pierce as it doesn't do much in the late game and Commandeer can be played from turn 1 on just like Spell Pierce
Keep up your awesome work! cheers :)
Well - that's already all I got.
April 28, 2017 5:04 p.m.
April 28, 2017 5:10 p.m.
So heres a risky card to add either for added risk but at the same time consistency or if youre on a budget.
- Its 50c!
- Its a one mana tutor for anything to your hand!
- It doubles as a wincon with Laboratory Maniac if you choose to add it (name a card not in the deck)
- Is a Real card and is in EDH LEGAL, "Neigh the card does not exist" You might protest if you dont know the card. (its not in enough decks imo) Thats where you're wrong kiddo ...
May i Present to you the better diabolic tutor Demonic Consultation
It only has a minor draw back of well umm.... Show
Meaning that if you tutor and the card you were searching for is in the top six youve lost the game on your next draw.
June 9, 2017 12:43 p.m.
also lab maniac already has some synergy with your other wincon blue son zeneith
June 9, 2017 7:32 p.m.
Even if you do not hit the name card in the top 6, those cards are still exiled from the game. In a singleton format, that is a big no-no. The fact that you lose on the next turn (unless you have a teferi and l-maniac on the field) does not help. Tainted Pact is the safer, but still sketchy choice.
June 9, 2017 8:07 p.m.
Miracle you ehter well didnt read my whole comment as ive listed everything youve mentioned with an explanation or misunderstand how the card works you are either using it and hopeing its not in the top 6 cards as i stated to tutor your win for the turn or your using the card itself to win preferably that turn by naming a card not in your deck and using one of the draw spells or effects like damia or necropotence. no need for venser or tefferi unless you need somthing to save you depending on the meta aswell theres alot of tuck cards out there which could of tucked your wincon in which this is safe to use. also i attempted comedy in my orriginal comment that waas a miss for you ""Neigh the card does not exist" You might protest if you dont know the card. (its not in enough decks imo) Thats where you're wrong kiddo ...May i Present to you the better diabolic tutor Demonic Consultation
It only has a minor draw back of well umm.... [show]"
that said if you want all the tutors tainted pact is also a fantastic addition here as you dont have to name the card so you might use it to tutor your first combo peice but thats a bit risky or late game where you already have all your lands of one colour which otherwise could of stoped the search.
June 10, 2017 4 a.m.
Huge spoiler this morning! Will it see a spot in this deck???
June 14, 2017 8:58 a.m.
June 16, 2017 10:04 a.m.
But isn't Crucible of Worlds one of the best cards in this deck? Why not double the chances of getting it/it's effect? It's good at almost any point in the game, no?
June 16, 2017 10:20 a.m.
It is a great card, and it's already in this deck. The thing is, what would you cut for a 2nd one? A second one isn't going to win you the game any faster.
June 16, 2017 1:06 p.m.
I don't really follow that logic. If a card is more powerful than others in your deck and has incredible synergy with a lot of cards in your deck, there is always room for it. There has to be at least one other card in your deck that can get cut. If you would want advice I'd be glad to take a look at your deck! :)
June 16, 2017 1:17 p.m.
Tell me, looking at this deck here, what card would you cut to make room for this card? I don't find it viable in this deck here, nor did I say my deck needed a card to be cut to fit this in it. I don't see it a decent card. Your statement of "Crucible of Worlds" being one of the best cards in this deck is also false, unless you're saying it's one of 15 of the best cards. It doesn't aid you in assembling your combo, short of bringing back fetch lands. Then, if you don't have burgeoning, Azusa, or other "May play more than one land per turn" cards in the BF, then it's just a body that helps you with getting a land per turn dropped.
June 16, 2017 6:49 p.m.
It helps with Wasteland and Strip Mine. You can keep recasting them and blasting your opponents lands in the process. You can start this combo early game, locking your opponent down that way. It's a pretty powerful pairing.
June 16, 2017 7:13 p.m.
I CANT BELIEVE I HAVENT UPVOTED THIS DECK YET +1 i feel bad now
June 23, 2017 7:30 a.m.
This deck is awesome!! after viewing it, understanding it, and reading all the comments individually my verdict is. What about maybe some of these cards? Rising Waters Future Sight Pendrell Mists Autumn's Veil Night's Whisper Notion Thief Brainstorm Baleful Strix Temporal Mastery Trinket Mage. Let me know some of these may be really good ideas.
August 3, 2017 4:31 a.m.
PS - Your deck outclasses these cards, they should be replaced with something better Arcane Denial(Way better Counters Exist than a 2 for 3?) Three VisitsSkyshroud Claim Nature's Lore ( With all the instant land drop that your deck is putting down it would be more efficient to remove these cards for sheer card draw)
August 3, 2017 4:43 a.m.
August 3, 2017 4:49 a.m.
Deckgodmaster: While some of those cards would seem good, in this deck, they are not. This deck is meant to be a fast-paced competitive combo deck. Meant to win as early at T5 if the MTG gods smile upon us. That said, here are my reasons for why I wouldn't include these cards, short of Notion Thief.
Omniscience: Too slow, game should be over at this point.
Mindslaver: Not our purpose in this deck. More suited for the trips.
Rising Waters: I feel while this is a nice tax card, again, not the purpose behind this deck. Plus you'll need to use your own removal to let you combo out.
Future Sight: Too costly, not that great.
Pendrell Mists: Too costly, you lose your own creatures further delaying your own game.
Temporal Mastery: This isn't a miracles deck, so without serious manipulation, this would be cast at full cost. Not efficient again.
August 5, 2017 8:33 a.m.
I would never give up ramp for card draw. What's the point of card advantage when you get 4 lands on the battlefield without them being added to your land per turn. With Ramp comes Damia and with Damia is your card draw.
August 5, 2017 8:37 a.m.
Can confirm: Torment of Hailfire is a devastating addition to Damia. It's dangerous at just about every point in the game
August 6, 2017 12:19 p.m.
Torment of Hailfire is SOOOOO not good at every point in the game. That card is good if you make either 30+ mana, or infinite mana. The latter of which means you should be able to combo and win with plenty of other cards in this deck than a Torment of Hailfire.
August 6, 2017 4:09 p.m.
BiggestJohn Because you need to cause 90+ damage to each opponent to win? Even at 10 it's brutal. It hits ever op if you haven't read it
August 6, 2017 9:15 p.m.
The life totals of your opponents are literally irrelevant. And if you want to control the board there are much better and more efficient options. As for the hands, eh screw em'. They don't matter until they can affect the game, and if they can, then there's a lot of counters in this deck that can stop them. Besides, if there's a card in their hand worth playing, then they won't be discarding it anyway.
August 6, 2017 9:41 p.m.
There have been a few posts here recently and I think it's worth clarifying something for this deck: this is a competitive EDH deck. It's not designed to play big, splashy spells. It's not designed to sport 1v1 lockdown. It's designed to follow one line - get down enough mana to play Tooth and Nail as quickly as possible and then end the game then and there. The end game for this kind of deck is around the turn 8 mark (it should be faster than this is a goldfishing scenario). That means that slow/expensive spells are out. Mana is tight for these kind of decks. That is evident from the deck running cards like Spell Pierce.
I get that this isn't where a lot of people play EDH, however this is where this deck is designed to play. It's important to keep this in mind when suggesting cards. If you're talking about 5 mana for a card, it better have a big impact. if you're talking about 10 mana for a card (or even X=10), then the card better be game ending.
August 6, 2017 10:57 p.m.
Torment of Hailfire needs around 20 mana to start REALLY putting the screws to people (this is also assuming no one is shitting out tokens and just laughs at you demanding they sac 18 of them). If you have 20 mana in this deck, go win... you can just Yawgmoth's Will to re-use your Demonic Tutor to go find Tooth and Nail, or you your Eternal Witness to get it back, or flashback your Mystical Teachings to find your Snapcaster Mage to replay the Demonic Tutor, leaving you 10 mana to entwine it and have a Flusterstorm backup.
Like he said this deck is about WINNING, not making your opponent suffer through horrible choices. Torment of Hailfire needs to be in a shell that is built to drag the game on a very long time and attrition your opponents out. Damia is trying to end the game by turn 8, if that does not happen by turn 8 it may run out of steam and get taken out of the game because it is not built to win an attrition war. It is built to ramp to, find, and entwine Tooth and Nail to win the game.
August 7, 2017 1:10 a.m.
gr8 Deck mate but the description wuZ a bit loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong
August 11, 2017 10:36 p.m.
That's just one BSZ, however if you use custom categories, the same card can be listed in multiple categories. (Phantasmal Image also appears as both "Utility" and "WinCon".)
August 14, 2017 4:37 p.m.
Been a while since I commented. I'll try to respond primarily to those points that others haven't already addressed.
Thought-Knot Seer is expensive to cast and doesn't really perform a vital function in this deck, given that its abilities don't have a high impact.
Stax is a challenge. This deck does have the means to outpace some stax decks by ramping extremely aggressively, but sacrifice engines in particular are effective at keeping utility creatures from having a great deal of impact. I haven't played in several years (apart from the casual 60-card game here or there), so I'm not really qualified anymore to assess how this deck competes with more modern Tier 1-Tier 2 stax decks.
This deck would rather not play Zendikar Resurgent or Mana Reflection because they need to be hard cast and are more difficult to find. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger would be a stronger choice in that respect (because it's Tooth and Nailable), but even then it hasn't made the cut. I leave that to players' discretion, though. Some people may find that the redundancy is important in their meta.
As a combo deck, this deck can normally outpace most noncombo aggro decks. Certain commander damage decks can pose a threat if unanswered. And don't forget that you can chump block with utility creatures if you have to. Surviving in a difficult position is preferable to being out of the game entirely.
I do feel that way about Consecrated Sphinx from time to time. Unfortunately, having not played in a true competitive multiplayer environment in a long time, I can't say with certainty whether it needs to be replaced. The mana cost is the biggest downside, but it's a powerful backup draw engine that's much less risky than Damia herself.
Stroke of Genius is serviceable, and there are ways to recur cards from the graveyard just as there are ways to get them back from the library. I use Blue Sun's Zenith because mana is not an issue by the combo turn and the win con is safer (from hate effects) in the library than in the yard.
Timetwister is an interesting choice, and certainly something that becomes more potent as this deck becomes faster. I would test it.
Arbor Elf ramps, but Crop Rotation does not. I'm not sure if they're comparable in terms of slot consumption. In some metas, the land tutor may be more important because there may be a greater dependence on cards like Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
I don't recommend playing Demonic Consultation unless you're playing Laboratory Maniac, and I don't really think this deck wants to play either (although it could be built in such a way that they're more viable). Demonic Consultation presents the issue of exiling potentially necessary win conditions in order to find a combo piece, and it's never really completely safe to use. Similarly, Tainted Pact isn't in the deck (and is actually covered in the "Omissions" section). I don't think there are many cases where I'd so desperately need a single card that I could risk potentially exiling every other card for it.
It's true that Crucible of Worlds is a good card, but every card in this deck is a good card. Crucible of Worlds doesn't really provide necessary functionality to this deck, though, so I wouldn't call it one of the best cards and similarly wouldn't be able to justify increasing its redundancy at the expense of some other functionality.
Lots of feedback there. I'll try to respond to as much as I have space for.
Rising Waters is an issue because this deck really wants to maximize its mana availability.
Future Sight was in a much earlier version of the deck, but was cut because the cost outweighed the value. Some people may prefer to run it, but I don't.
Pendrell Mists is a good stax card, but this isn't a stax deck. I'd rather keep my utility creatures at the risk of letting other people keep theirs.
Autumn's Veil has some potential. I've never really experimented with it in the 99, though.
Night's Whisper is not as preferable as a draw engine, in my opinion.
Notion Thief could be good in some cases, and I haven't actually tested it in the deck, but there weren't very many times where I think I would have (and would prefer to spend) the mana on it given its inconsistency from game to game.
Brainstorm was in an earlier version of the deck, and it could still justifiably be run given all of the fetch lands, but I prefer to spend the slot on other cards.
Baleful Strix doesn't really do enough to justify spending the mana.
Trinket Mage is a more expensive and more limited tutor than those already in the deck.
Arcane Denial is in the deck because it's a hard counter for , which I'll gladly take in the final turn.
Three Visits and Nature's Lore are important ramp cards and cannot be cut. Skyshroud Claim could potentially be cut on a cost basis, but it's very powerful and pays for half of its own cost on resolution.
Mindslaver is not something this deck needs. I don't really want to spend to control someone's turn if I could spend much less to get myself closer to actually winning. It's not good without a recursion combo or when facing multiple opponents.
Academy Ruins could be played, but I don't really need to recur any of the artifacts in this deck as much as I need access to on-color mana.
Omniscience is not necessary. My primary win con is an spell, which doesn't benefit at all from Omniscience and does benefit from an infinite mana combo (the latter of which enables just as many other cards as the former).
August 14, 2017 7:19 p.m.
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|Date added||5 years|
|Last updated||2 months|
This deck is Commander / EDH legal.
|Tokens||1/1 Spirit, 1/1 Bird|
|Folders||EDH, EDH, edh ideas, Awesome EDH, EDH, 6. Funnihilator, Brilliant, EDH Decks, Other People's Decks, EDH Stuff, See all 493|
|Top rank||#2 on 2012-08-19|