|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Vintage Masters (VMA)||Rare|
|Masters Edition IV (ME4)||Rare|
|Masters Edition II (ME2)||Rare|
|Revised Edition (3ED)||Rare|
|Revised Foreign Black Border (3EDFBB)||Rare|
|Unlimited Edition (2ED)||Rare|
|Collector's Edition (CED)||Rare|
|International Collector's Edition (CEI)||Rare|
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|Limited Edition Alpha (LEA)||Rare|
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Land — Island Swamp
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Underground Sea Discussion
5 days ago
cdkime I think we had a misunderstanding here. When reading through the comments, this statement of Rzepkanut got stuck: Like you could just draw your infinite combo and not cast it. I don't always choose the "most optimal" line on purpose, just to make games more interesting.
This is what I meant with intentionally playing worse than you could with your available cards. Someone knows what the best available Play is, chooses not to make it because he assumes the opponents can't stop him anyway and would not want the game to end yet. That's a really awful behaviour imo, it's essentially saying "wait, let me kill you in a more complicated way. that's more fun (for me) but I could win anyway if I only wanted"
That's something completely different than pubstomping, where you already outrace the opponents in deckbuilding because of more monetary and strategic investment. Pubstomping doesn't create fun games (you pretty much addressed that in your comments), but playing intentionally worse than you could does as well. What I meant is that "spike" behaviour is something different than pubstomping and can be done on every power level...it's trying to play optimally within your means and that shouldn't be discouraged imo.
On the topic of proxies: I'm personally in the lucky position of not needing proxies in general. I have started playing early enough (6th Edition) to have purchased lots of legacy and vintage staples (which are now also EDH staples) for cheap prices. In my local meta we are mostly players around the age of 30 and most have either started playing early or have enough money to buy at least some of the staples for the deck of their choice. Now, we are playing competitively, which means there are cards needed for certain strategies that you definitely won't just buy with pocket money if you don't already own them today. Timetwister, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mishra's Workshop, Underground Sea...you know what I mean. Again, I don't even need proxies for these cards because of my playing history but the newer players with well paying jobs are already not able or willing to just invest that much at once into their deck(s). They might miss like 5 cards max then, which is still fine in order to keep up but if some younger guys want to play along with us there's absolutely no chance they could do so if we didn't allow proxies.
To address your 6 points above:
If you establish proxy use in the local meta, people coming into that meta have to accept it or choose to play somewhere else. If you go somewhere else, it's the other way round obviously. It probably depends on how dominant your local group is in a larger area...for example where I play we have the only actually competitive EDH meta within an hour by car in all directions. If we didn't allow proxies, people who want to play at that power level would have to spend more money or they wouldn't be able to play because there's no other place nearby to play competitively. If we go somewhere else to play (we've recently visited a shop in another town to check if there are potentially competitive players to connect with) we don't change our decks and switch out proxies if there are some and in the beginning we would play among ourselves, letting other people watch, before we have games with strangers. It's rather unrealistic that anyone will have objections to a few proxies when the value of the real cards involved at the table would buy a nice car.
Buying cards often happens online, especially when the LGS has higher prices on average. You can buy a whole deck and not automatically support the LGS with that
Respecting wotc these days is a lot to ask for. Just look at their newest money grab with the new masters set...on a side note, buying eternal staples on the secondary market is something that wotc doesn't profit from anyway. The company doesn't care if you buy your timetwister from another player or print it on a piece of paper instead, the unlimited booster packs have been sold 25 years ago and wotc doesn't sell singles.
Absolutely true and it's the reason why I still buy cards today. I like to have the deck look nice, with exclusive versions of cards, foils, foreign cards, alters...that's a good reason for buying real cards imo, apart from the investment aspect. That's everyone's personal choice though and it shouldn't have an effect on the gameplay. having original and fancy cards is just for the feel and looks imo.
Obvious. Proxies shouldn't obscure what the card is. Writing on another card really sucks for gameplay and shouldn't be done imo...print the card out and put it in the sleeve in front of another card, so that it covers completely what is behind. Using a hqcp is debatable since they might be passed off as originals in sales and trades, which is definitely not ok. If you don't plan on selling anything out of your decks, chances you could confuse them accidentially are basically zero though.
Power 9 is banned in EDH (except timetwister), so that's not a reason against proxies. Obviously, someone proxying Time Walk for EDH wouldn't be ok - just like using the real card. Proxies can only be used for legal cards anyway and that creates an even playing field despite budget differences within a meta. If the fully original decks aren't budgetless yet, proxies could be a problem if the proxy decks become better. A possible solution for bringing the newer players up to the level of the established players might be to check the price of the most expensive original deck in the meta and allow everyone to proxy up to that total deck price. That way you could keep the maximum level at the deck price that the most invested player owns. I much rather prefer to have completely budgetless builds for everyone, but this is because we play cEDH. In my own meta that suggestion wouldn't cap the power level because there are fully original decks in our arsenal with tabernacle and workshop and stuff...For casual groups that want to cap the power level at what is "realistic", orienting everyone at the most expensive real deck might be a trick though.
6 days ago
I think Arvail hit the nail on the head. Being "too spiky" is entirely dependent on the meta you play in--there are groups where a turn 5 win might be considered "too spiky" when the same deck would be woefully inadequate in others.
I wanted to add one additional thought to Arvail's point. Lands are such a fundamental part of the game that players don't usually consider them "spiky." However, as everyone knows, if you take two decks, one running Bad River, Dismal Backwater, etc., and another running Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, and Watery Grave, all other things being equal the second deck will be faster and more "spiky."
When trying to avoid being too "spiky" for your meta, pay close attention to what lands others are playing. Don't bring Shocks, Fetches, and ABUR lands to a table full of lands that enter tapped. You'll be seen as too both spiky and winning because of money, not because the rest of the deck is better.
2 weeks ago
For future reference, there is a Rules Q&A section for questions regarding cards, card interactions, and the rules. Unlike other forum sections, you can "Mark as Answer" a post, helping with forum organization.
shadow63 is correct. From the Gatherer ruling:
This effect doesn’t affect names or supertypes. It won’t turn any land into a basic land or remove the legendary supertype from a legendary land, and the lands won’t be named “Mountain.”
So, for a few examples:
Underground Sea will become: Underground Sea; Land - Mountain.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx will become: Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx; Legendary Land - Mountain.
3 weeks ago
Sometimes basic is best!
1 month ago
Swapped out Snapcaster Mage for Mission Briefing Seemed like a good change, I lose the ability for the cost reduction to make it cost just U but you gain the Surveil, with Kess in play the Surviel is incredibly powerful.
These couple of changes also made my deck drop in competitive scaling, so not sure what happened there.
Also need to try to reduce CMC a bit more, want to get the average to around 1.5 CMC
1 month ago
SRJ26 I don't personally proxy (which I know players who couldn't buy cards when they were cheap may not be able to do on a budget), but I realize some do, and so because my decks are worth thousands, I am okay with them proxying cards.
My LGS says you can proxy a card as many times as you want if you own at least one proxy, for the in-store competitive events. This means you can have one Underground Sea you proxy and another you have in another deck, which I think is fair.
I really wouldn't ever say that supporting proxying cards for such an expensive game is a terrible thing or anything, it is perfectly fine, yet some players will, some won't, some have specific rules on how they are able to do it, and talking about proxying isn't bad.
With your last point, I have found cEDH isn't normally in person, so it is online, and proxying doesn't even exist, and in real life, every player I have played cEDH with has actually bought the cards (they normally are older players you got duals and stuff for $5 or $10), so saying cEDH is more lax about proxies has been wrong in my own experience, however that is anecdotal, and maybe I have only met oddities.
1 month ago
Grandmaster5327, all of those are uncommon or higher rarity, so none of them are legal in Pauper format. Thus, none of those would work for this deck in this format. At the level of common, which is all that may be used for Pauper format, there are no dual lands that enter the battlefield untapped.
Rootwater Depths = uncommon Underground Sea = rare Volcanic Island = rare Tropical Island = rare Scrubland = rare Plateau = rare Savannah = rare Tundra = rare Taiga = rare Bayou = rare Badlands = rare
Looking at the cards from Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, and Revised, they didn't have the color designations for any symbols (indeed, they lacked symbols completely), but looking them up on Gatherer shows that ALL of them are uncommon, rare, and there are even some dual lands at mythic rare. None of the dual lands at the level of Common enter the battlefield untapped.
2 months ago
hah. I can’t believe it’s been that long! You’re welcome, I’m sure it’s come around on other decks over the years.