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Drowned Catacomb Discussion
21 hours ago
So just as a note, I run a Lazav deck with a minor clone sub theme (much less now than it used to be). My issue with lots of clones is that you can be as strong as your opponents, but often you will be as weak as them also.
You will need a few good beaters of your own to clone and swing with if you play against, say a creatureless deck, or a tribal deck, or just a friend's budget deck. You need Consuming Aberration, Guiltfeeder, Lord of the Void to swing at people, and these are also good clone targets. Cut Echo Mage, Eternal Dominion, and Elite Archanist, Maybe also Havengul Lich unless you play a lot more cheap or ETB creatures.
If you want to make use of combat triggers and just win in an attack, you need more evasion, like Thassa, God of the Sea
Mindcrank goes infinite with Duskmantle Guildmage. If you don't run this combo, i would cut him, because your mill potential is really low. His spot would be better served by removal.
How will you make use of Lazav in this deck, because I see very little removal, discard, or mill. All I see are a couple counters and a couple super expensive boardwipes. I would add at least a Murder, and a Go for the Throat, and a Pongify. Maybe also use some discard with Syphon Mind? I just don't see Lazav being relevant for the majority of the game unless you get a good counter or a board wipe that he can survive. That may ne as late as like turn 8-10 which is like mid game.
With my deck I have Lazav out by turn 4 about 75% of the time (partially also due to careful mulliganing, always mull if you don't have 2-4 sources of colored.), and i start milling turn 5-6 depending on my options. it still plays a kind of slow game, though.
Best of luck. Here's a +1. And GO Dimir!
23 hours ago
IF it triggers, people lose, no matter their lifetotal or amount of cards they run. It's infinite.
Traumatize is the best millcard in theory, in practice, by the time you can cast it in a deck without ramp is way too late for it to be useful.
Slaughter Pact is a workable alternative to Dismember. And, you know, Doom Blade exists. Dismember is usually reserved for off-color decks for that removal slot. Good card, but you already run Black mana, and less wonky alternatives exist.
Lazav, Mirko, Ashiok and Phenax are, once again, way too expensive manawise or too much off the archetype to help much. But that's more of an personal bias, if you want to run creatures, by all means do. IMO, only Hedron crabs (big if on Crabs) and Jace's Phantasm are worth it to use, aside from the infinite mill Duskmantle. instead of all those, run Consuming Aberration maybe?
Increasing Confusion seems like a good card, but when you consider that opponents deck is 60 cards and you have to mill minimum of 50 to win in any reasonable timeframe, X seems like a bad investment. Memory Erosion seems like a nice alternative.
Mesmeric Orb because screw you using permanents.
Pithing Needle screw you using THAT ability.
Damping Matrix basically don't use any abilities.
Torpor Orb yes, I do mean any of them.
Archive Trap because screw opponent using his expensive fetch-lands.
And Extirpate makes those fetch-lands a liability, not a good card to run when all 4 go poof and force a Archive Trap to trigger. Same utility as Surgical Extraction but hey, 8 of em now. And Ghost Quarter you already run can force opponent to tap those Shock-Lands and imaginably gain nothing from it but headache.
Twincast is always lolzy on higher mill cards.
Noxious Revival is always nice, you can do all sort of nasty stuff with it, if you can tolerate the Life Cost.
Most Importantly, get some graveyard hate. Sideboard plenty of it, minimum of 4 cards. Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage or SOMETHING. Otherwise dredge/snapcaster/Storm eats you alive.
Defense Grid is nice against more controlley decks, but you ARE controlley deck, make a judgement call on that. You could imaginable toss all the counters off and run it.
And I'm guessing you know your landbase is kinda wonky. Sure, better lands easily ramp the price of the deck by a large margin but they also make it objectively better.
2 days ago
How about Tasigur's Cruelty in place of Monomania?
Mesmeric Orb in place of the Obelisk. The Orb is an insane milling Engine.
Why use Greed, when you can use Erebos, God of the Dead and hose on other Lifegain. Let the feelig of Despair wash over your enemies, as Cthulhu desires.
Hope this helps. Giving you a Lovecraftian +1 from a big fan of the mill archetype, and a fellow UB player.
3 days ago
While this deck looks fun, I'm still not sure that the end-goal of the deck is. Is is a value/ card advantage war of attrition? Stolen creature beatdown? Maybe winning is not a goal? That is an equally appropriate goal when playing for fun. I like to think that having at least a chance of winning keeps the game interesting. It would make making suggestions easier if i knew your strategy.
Also, how are you making use of Lazav's ability and/ or filling the graveyard? I usually see players use either mill, discard, or heavy removal/ sacrifice to get triggers for Lazav. Personally, I like mill a lot so I try to steal creatures direct from top of the library. Since Lazav has an awkward cost, I might suggest a different commander if you don't plan on using him much. Commanders like Vela the Night-Clad or Sygg, River Cutthroat are easier to play early and may be more advantageous to you if you only use Lazav for the colors.
I would include stronger ETB creatures like Sepulchral Primordial or Diluvian Primordial get you mega value as the game runs on. Silumgar and Scuttling Doom engine do you little good compared to what these suggestions could. I also recommend Wrexial, the Risen Deep who is a repeatable Spelltwine, and can serve as a viable alternative commander when you want to mix it up.
Lazav is going to be lost without his favorite Dimir horror Consuming Aberration.
I think Avatar of Woe would be an improvement over Big Game Hunter, if not just for the reusability.
Maybe use some cheaper reanimation like Animate Dead or Necromancy or Dance of the Dead which are reanimator staples. Maybe Geth, Lord of the Vault, who is a good repeatable animator that fills the grave back up as well.
Maybe some better color fixing and artifact ramp could be Chromatic Lantern and Armillary Sphere? For lands, I highly recommend Tainted Isle and Drowned Catacomb. The Vivid lands Vivid Creek and Vivid Marsh are useful fixing as well. Rogue's Passage gets you a couple hits in when it lands.
If you eventually plan on upgrading the deck, i have some more pricy suggestions for the deck. I left them out from above in case this is a budget build Sword of Body and Mind, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Thassa, God of the Sea, Gilded Lotus.
I guess that's all I have to say. I saw your list on a random list of UB decks and thought I would say what's worked for my Lazav list. I hope you find at least something here in this comment you can use. I love seeing how others build Lazav, and your looks like a solid budget build for the guy. Definitely a good list for a new player who wants to improve the deck over time, and you provide lots of directions to take it. Have fun!
6 days ago
Hey there! Welcome to Mill in EDH!
Undead Alchemist helps you make use of all the milled cards by giving you blockers or more mill engines.
As far as mill engines, Dreamborn Muse Mesmeric Orb and Memory Erosion are not to be underestimated. The Orb is the single most powerful mill card in my Lazav EDH deck (Welcome to the Undercity), which also runs Phenax as an alternate commander for when I get bored.
Instead of Chancellor of the Spires (which has a cute interaction with opponents' Rites of Replication), I think you will get more value out of Lord of the Void
If you are careful, Minds Aglow could draw out a table all at once, save you.
For stuff that You don't want to be in the Graveyard, I would add in Dimir Doppelganger
Other stuff I would cut- Echo Mage, Knacksaw Clique, Traumatize. These are all too expensive for what they accomplish. Echo Mage takes a huge investment and once he gets killed you are looking at a tempo loss of 11 mana. The fairies cost 2 for every additional untap. Still, I see why you might want it.
Traumatize, though... 1- it's sorcery speed so can only cast it your turn. 2- always mills exactly one half, so it cant ever finish a player off even if they have 2 cards in library. 3) it only hits one player (this is also true for Psychic spiral). 4-Except for some GY interaction (reanimator ,etc.) Traumatize does not help a lot. It is too expensive to play early and mill 45+, and it is too ineffectual to play late and mill 10-20. Mostly a mid game card, sadly. Psychic Spiral is a bit better in some situations, and Keening Stone is a nice clock.
Hope this helps! +1 for this deck and Happy Milling!
1 week ago
I would say add in Undead Alchemist, which synergizes pretty will with your Altar of the Brood. Any creature you mill gives you a free token which triggers the Altar again. This can go on for quite some time depending on how many players are in the game. It is also good with Intruder Alarm. Really, there's no reason to leave it out :)
Dimir Charm has more utility than Essence Scatter. It kills a Prophet of Kruphix, cancels a late game bomb, or just screws an opponent with Top.
Impulse is worse than Ponder since it is cheaper, and you can shuffle if you see nothing useful.
Pemmin's Aura is a common enchantment in Phenax decks to do untap loops.
Thinking of Altars, I really like Altar of the Brood. It is a good response to board wipes. If they kill your creatures you can sac the all to mill the perpetrator for the combined power of your creatures. I've done it a few times when someone tries to kill my Consuming Aberration.
Change Dissipate to Counterspell.
Duplicant could be the much more versatile Clever Impersonator.
Honestly, what I think I see is a deck that is a bit lacking on actual win conditions. You have lots of card draw but only a couple combos. How will you secure a game when you want to win. You need a bit more resilience. Are you milling out? You will need to mill 270 cards in a 4 player game. You need more effective mill spells or combo pieces. Helm of Obedience has an infinite mill reaction with the black Leyline. Mesmeric Orb is crazy powerful, as is Dreamborn Muse. You could also get part of the way with Memory Erosion. Be careful with the orb, though, if you have tap/untap combos - be sure you can win before your draw step when you go off.
Change Oonas Grace or another weak counter' draw spell for Muddle the Mixture to tutor for the Guildmage or the Mindcrank.
I run a thematic Lazav mill deck with minimal combo, so I do have experience with the card's I've suggested. They have served me well. I hope you can use a couple of the suggestions! Happy milling!
1 week ago
For your manabase, I'd advise the following (moving down to 23 lands):
I added a Tec. Edge because it is incredibly powerful against manlands, opposing Lighthouses and Tron.
Regarding the rest of the deck: I really want four Remands in here. One Twin seems like the right cut. I also want four Snapcaster Mages, and might fit Thought Scour in as a 2-of for two Inquisition of Kozilek. The last Inquisition could become the third Thoughtseize.