|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2017 (C17)||None|
|Commander Anthology (CM1)||Uncommon|
|Conspiracy: Take the Crown (CN2)||Uncommon|
|Magic 2014 (M14)||Uncommon|
|2012 Core Set (M12)||Uncommon|
|MTG: Commander (CMD)||Uncommon|
|2011 Core Set (M11)||Uncommon|
|2010 Core Set (M10)||Uncommon|
|Tenth Edition (10E)||Uncommon|
|Ninth Edition (9ED)||Uncommon|
|Ninth Edition Foreign Black Border (9EDFBB)||Uncommon|
|Eighth Edition (8ED)||Uncommon|
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|Have (5)||orzhov_is_relatively_okay819 , , Bluboltar , GrimMeeper , PTsmitty|
|Want (8)||zachfillmore07 , elijahdprophet , Spuirrel , metalmustaine , SkylordAleksander , Nuregami , jteck , ddrextremexxx|
Diabolic Tutor Discussion
23 hours ago
certain cards you may really like for the +1 +1 counter strategy: Spike Weaver it gives you the ability to repeat fogs over and over against people who like to swing. Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder give you the ability to go hecka tall hecka quick and make your dudes as big as you want em. Plaxcaster Frogling gives you the ability to protect your boys with counters on them for hecka cheap.
More two mana rocks would be better in your deck then some of the others you chose. look up the full set of talisman cards and throw in some more signets. they recently just completed the cycle of all 10 talisman and those are just nice and cheap ways to assure you get mana faster. the first three turns of a non cEDH game tend to be all set up. having stuff to do on the first few turns is pretty sweet. also throw in Coalition Relic over Darksteel Ingot . you lose out on the indestructible, but gain so much more mana out of it because of atraxa
because you can be a bit more of a combo deck that a guarantee you the people you play with don't expect, you wanna have more tutors in the deck. now you COULD run counterspells, or hear me out, you could run more tutors. stuff like Eladamri's Call , Demonic Tutor , Vampiric Tutor , Enlightened Tutor , Worldly Tutor , Sylvan Tutor and of course instead of Diabolic Tutor try Mastermind's Acquisition . it's the same cost but also throws on a second mode for a wish so just in case people exile something you really could have wanted to use you can grab that bad boy back. also a better tamiyo to run is Tamiyo, Field Researcher .
1 day ago
Hi, a few things.
Not enough ramp! I counted about 7 different sources of ramp. Your goal is to play big boys in many different colours. If you hit your ramp and fixing then things will work out great. Adding in more mana rocks or more consistent ways to ramp will really help your deck. Fellwar Stone , more signets, Sol Ring , Mind Stone , etc etc. Due to the higher nature of your curve (3.94 Avg CMC), I would go upwards to 39 lands at a minimum, if not 40.
The creatures that are in your deck that have blue or green identity are: Draconic Disciple, Dragonlord Silumgar, Empyrean Eagle, Niv Mizzet Firemind, Shalai, Ramos, Rienne
Those are the creatures you're allowing for 5 colour Kaalia. I'm not exactly sure it's worth it or if the idea is just sweeter in your head. You will have a tighter package all around by cutting blue due to the very little you're getting from blue, and cutting green as well, or utilizing green more for the ramp it can provide. The benefits you're getting from blue are really minor.
That is just speculation and trying to help you figure out if your plan is worth it or to kill your darlings for a tighter package, something only you can answer. If you do want to keep it five colour, I would suggest utilizing green for more ramp and adding in more basics in other colors to include very easy color fixing in the form of Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse . They're slower, but they really help consistency.
To help answer whether or not to do 5 color or stick to 4 or 3, ask yourself what you want this deck to do, other than swarm with angels, demons, and dragons. Once you know the core purpose of this deck, it will be able to tune and cut better. To me it seems like a midrange deck that wants to overwhelm with board, but if so, how about some ways like Eerie Interlude to protect your board state?
As an aside, Mastermind's Acquisition can not grab items from outside the game in Commander, and it will effectively be a Diabolic Tutor . If you're okay with that, great!
Hope this all helps. Happy deckbuilding!
2 days ago
My first suggestion involves your artifact ramp. Dimir Signet and Orzhov Signet are worse than Talisman of Dominance and Talisman of Hierarchy in the majority of situations, mainly because they don't need mana to begin activating. Talisman of Progress is also worth considering, though I'm assuming blue and white are your lesser colors. In that vein, I suggest cutting Chromatic Lantern for another piece of two-mana artifact ramp. In my experience, there is a big difference between 2 and 3 mana rocks in EDH, and anything you can do to increase your deck's speed will be a good thing.
Considering the win conditions: I think Approach of the Second Sun is superfluous. In my experience, zombie decks are perfectly happy just trying to get away with the aggro win condition, though the Gravecrawler loops are certainly an interesting second. The problem with Approach of the Second Sun is that it is not good by itself; generally, you want to run combo pieces that also serve some utility even without the combo. (For example, this is why I hate the Isochron Scepter in my Kess, Dissident Mage list.) Drawing it in your opener or when you don't have the mana to cast it leaves it essentially dead, and I think the aggro or Gravecrawler plans are just better.
Once you hit three colors, mana base becomes extremely important. City of Brass and Mana Confluence are excellent cards, and I've had excellent luck with them. Ideally, you'd run fetch lands like Polluted Delta and Misty Rainforest as a sort of 'additional dual land,' but these can be very pricy. If that's an issue, I advise slow fetches like Bad River , Flood Plain , Rocky Tar Pit and Grasslands . Cavern of Souls is an expensive card, though it is excellent in any tribal deck -- if you have access to it, you should run it. Unclaimed Territory is another thing to consider, as is running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth instead of one of your basic Swamp s. I also think you're running a few too many lands. Thirty-three is generally my upper limit, and since your curve is so high, I think that's about what you'd want. Thirty-five is too many.
I like that you're running zombie lords. Though anthem effects do greatly reduce the synergy of Gravecrawler with Skullclamp , I think their bonus to the aggro plan is high enough to justify their inclusion. In that vein, Lord of the Undead and Zombie Master are worth considering.
Card advantage decides most EDH games -- for example, yesterday I had someone concede not because I had pressure on the board, but because I was drawing five more cards than them a turn. Though this may have been a premature concession, it does illustrate my point. Thus, I highly recommend running cards like Graveborn Muse , Phyrexian Arena , Painful Truths , Chart a Course , Slate of Ancestry , Glimmer of Genius , Pulse of the Grid , Night's Whisper , Notion Thief , Thirst for Knowledge and/or Windfall . Similarly, cantrips like Ponder and Preordain are almost auto-includes in a blue list. Brainstorm 's efficacy is dependent on the number of shuffle effects you run, though if you choose to include fetches (slow or otherwise), I highly advise it. Many of these cards involve paying life; if life becomes an issue, try Whip of Erebos or a non-lethal Exsanguinate in addition to your Gray Merchant of Asphodel .
Tutors are good cards. I'm a fan of Entomb in addition to your Buried Alive , as it gets Gravecrawler in the yard for your combo and, if you pair it with reanimation like Reanimate , Animate Dead or the Victimize / Stitch Together you already run, it allows you to cheat in fatties. Grave Titan and Massacre Wurm are two of my favorite reanimation targets, but they're both around $20 these days. Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor are the gold standard for black tutors, but these can also be inaccessible because of their price. Diabolic Tutor is a fine substitute, and I've had good success with Lim-Dul's Vault .
Liliana is also a good zombie-include, be it for flavor or for the power she offers. Liliana, Death's Majesty is great in zombie decks and is pretty affordable; Liliana, Dreadhorde General has been dropping in price recently and is also great. Depending on your playgroup's meta, Liliana, the Last Hope may be a powerhouse, though she is $40 these days.
Generally in EDH, one-for-ones are not where you want to be. There are usually three opponents, so on average you'll be facing 3x as many cards as you have. Anguished Unmaking and Utter End are good cards, but they are not as good in EDH as they'd be in 1v1 formats. Supreme Verdict and Merciless Eviction , which I see you're running, are better. Might I suggest Damnation , Wrath of God , and/or Toxic Deluge ? You may want to lean toward black board-wipes, as this is already where your mana will be when casting zombies. An overloaded Cyclonic Rift is also great, especially if paired with the aforementioned Windfall .
Perpetual Timepiece is a cool include. Consider Cephalid Vandal . Because you're not running Call to the Grave (which I think is overrated anyways), there is little to no cost of running non-zombie creatures in your deck. I think Cephalid Vandal is another good way of trying to keep your deck churning with self-mill.
Another thing that takes good EDH decks to the next level is counter magic. I see you're running Counterspell , which is good, but you should consider running at least three to four other counter spells as well. Force of Will , Mana Drain and Pact of Negation are all good if you want to sell a kidney. If you're a slightly more reasonable player, cards like Narset's Reversal , Negate / Countersquall / Dovin's Veto , Swan Song , Disallow , Arcane Denial and Archmage's Charm are also worth considering.
Depending on your meta (and your personal level of sadism), Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render should be considered. Turning off tutors and extra-draws with asymmetrical effects is brutal. Personally, I don't think those two cards should ever have been printed, but what the hell -- they're here, so we might as well use them.
Patriarch's Bidding is a good way for a tribal deck to recover after a board-wipe, and Living Death is just good for black creature decks in general. Living Death is a sort of nonbo with Wonder , but that may be worth the trouble; play-testing will iron that issue out.
Good luck man!
enpc on Combo Tutors
4 days ago
Thank you to everybody who commented, sorry about the delayed response. Good ol' fashioned life getting in the way (not to mention I wasn't getting notifications for a while).
DrukenReaps: The extra tech with Tez is nice. Ultimately, the reason I like him so much is that once he's down, it's an ability which fetches the artifact and puts it straight into play. He can also get a mana rock (read Mana Vault ) turn N and Isochron Scepter turn N+1. The untap is the icing on the cake, but not why I would play him. The double blue is a bit of a shame, but what can you do. I think he's a relatively strong contender for the slot.
Joe_Ken_: I think I'm goingto swap Impulse for Spellseeker - she just seems better (albeit at sorcery speed). It's a shame she doesn't have flash, but I get why she doesn't have flash. And I think I agree with you on Whir of Invention , while the deck can hit triple blue, you effectively need quad blue held up to resolve it.
jaymc1130: I both agree and don't agree with you. First off, I'll touch on Mystic Forge - I don't mind the combo but I don't think it has a place in the deck. The thing about PE was that sure, there was a combo with Sensei's Divining Top , but more than that it tied the rest of the combo packages together in the deck and acted as a nice piece of redundancy against losing access to reversal/scepter. And I don't think that Mystic Forge does the same thing.
On the topic of 3+ CMC tutors - while I agree to an extent, I don't want to discount them either. Grim Tutor is probably the worst tutor in that paying 3 mana is basically a bad Demonic Tutor (which, granted, is one of the best tutors in the entire game), but even still there is zero restrictions on what it can get.
The rest of the tutors however provide some kind of additional value, most of them in the form that they deploy the tutored card into play, effectively uncounterably (yes, I know that Stifle is still a card). So while you are paying ultimately 1 additional mana, you get to test the waters a little bit. And in that light, the difference is a single mana. Dark Petition is a bit different, but again the ability to get anything is super strong. Not to mention that when getting then playing an Isochron Scepter , there is no cost difference between it and D Tutor. But on the flipside, I'm not going to be cramming Diabolic Tutor into my deck anytime soon just to increase the tutor density.
As for the whole fast v slow matchups, again, I agree and I don't. sure, expensive spells are generally bad against lightning fast decks, but that also comes down to what else is going on in my hand. Generally the faster a deck, the more glass cannon-y it is, so in those games I'm focused more on a counterspell or two anyway - I'm playing the slower game. But that doesn't always mean I'm going to generate value with Tymna. A common table for me is Kess storm, OG Sisay combo/beats hybrid and Tasigur control (I appreicate this may not be toppest of top shelf cEDH but they're still not casual, pub-stomp games). Kess will be about on par with me speed wise, but all of the other decks outcreature me. At this point, I don't mind paying a bit more for a value tutor - especially since most tutors I'm interested in do more than just putting a card in my hand.
On the topic of your Tymna/Thrasios deck, I had a look and it looks really cool. It's interesting to see the amount of proactive hate the deck runs, which is not as common to see these days compared to just packing a deck full of counterspells (which is I guess what you're going for). That being said, in my playgroup and for my playstyle, it's not the deck for me. If all I was versing was fast combo it would be much more appealing. But as it stands, I'm happier with the direction the deck is currently taking and given my group, I think the list has more potency for what I'm up against (not to mention it seems like it would be a lot more stressful to pilot :P).
The transmute cards are interesting. I think that Muddle the Mixture is by far the strongest of the three (which is why I re-included it). Shred Memory is nice GY hate, but feels like it's just a tutor and at that poing costs the same as Grim Tutor . And Dimir Infiltrator is cool (especially with Tymna) but you want ot cast it as soon as possible for CA, which tehn means it's no longer a tutor.
I hand thought about Tribute Mage but he just feels too narrow.
I don't like Reshape here - I'm basically eating mana rocks to get the thing which combos with mana rocks.
Long-Term Plans is a cool card, but yeah, it feels a bit weak here. Good in Melek though.
StopShot: I had thought about Diabolic Intent before and the benefit that worst case scenario you just eat your commander. I'm still on the fence about it though. Again, I don't want to eat a thing to fetch a thing which combos with what I just ate.
I completely forgot about Wargate though and I have to say I'm very intrigued by it. The fact that it can fetch a part of any combo (except Dramatic Reversal and even then it can get Spellseeker assuming I make space for her) is very nice and the fact you don't sacrifice the end goal card if gate is couterspelled is really cool. The mana coast is a bit tricky but I think it could be a strong contender.
Scroll Rack is nice, but potentially a bit slow and can feel really empty if you're stuck topdecking for whatever reason. It's good wheel insurance though. I'll have a bit more of a think about this one.
I had thought about Tainted Pact , however the mana base will cause issues since I run 4 Island s for High Tide (which is surprisingly good). If I cut this down to 2 I could do the whole land/snowland trick, but I'm not sold on it.
Again, thank you all for your comments - there is a lot to digest here but I very much appreciate people's thoughts on it. Also, I think I really overthink card swaps :P
5 days ago
Deck names: Fartless Summoning, Summoning Funnoning, Summoning Bums, Heedless Summoning, Wreckless Summoning, Discount Monsters, Mold-Damaged Beasts, Runts, Grunts, Cheap Beasts, Seconds, Defect Discount... I can come up with some more if you're interested.
Other relevant spells: Always Watching (negates -1/-1 from Heartless Summoning, Hall of Heliod's Generosity , Tragic Poet , Odunos River Trawler , Restoration Specialist , Bojuka Bog , Mortuary Mire , Buried Ruin , Scavenger Grounds , Field of Ruin , Ghost Quarter , Bump in the Night , Lightning Bolt , Terminate , Cast Down .
I don't see the need for Mass Hysteria. It's nice, but not relevant to the deck's goal of getting Heartless Summoning down. I'd cut it in favor tutors and/or disruption/utilities.
6 days ago
Phyrexian Delver Munitions Expert Tuktuk the Explorer Pawn of Ulamog Master of Cruelties Bedevil Hero's Downfall Read the Bones Diabolic Tutor Dreadbore Blasphemous Act Last One Standing Skullclamp Jar of Eyeballs Thran Turbine Vessel of Endless Rest Impact Tremors Temple of the False God
2 weeks ago
I agree wholeheartedly ae0n5105. Call them wishboards if you prefer that, but allowing them is much better than not. Especially when Wizards keeps printing cards like Karn, the Great Creator , and Vivien, Arkbow Ranger that are all nerfed into being essentially useless in Commander despite being strong in standard when they should be even stronger in Commander where we have so many more cards to choose from.
It's pure foolishness that Mastermind's Acquisition should be reduced to an overpriced Diabolic Tutor purely because the rules committee whiffed on sideboards for Commander. My playgroup allows for wishboards and honestly I think the game is better for it.
2 weeks ago
I would also tone down on how good of removal you are using in decks. Like instead of using Natural State instead use Root Out another example being instead of Ponder or Brainstorm use Scour All Possibilities
Also just using less effective tutors could help keep things more casual. Like using Thalia's Lancers or Diabolic Tutor instead of cards on the high end of price like Demonic Tutor and Enlightened Tutor
Diabolic Tutor occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.13%
UB (Dimir): 1.08%
WB (Orzhov): 0.59%
RBW (Mardu): 0.5%
WUB (Esper): 0.44%
UBR (Grixis): 0.49%