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|Eternal Masters (EMA)||Mythic Rare|
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|Promo set for Gatherer (PSG)||Mythic Rare|
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Vampiric Tutor Discussion
8 hours ago
I think you're playing too many tapped lands. Golgari Guildgate and Jungle Hollow can easily be cut for basic lands. Having more basics also helps you avoid getting absolutely destroyed by things like BloodMoon or Back to Basics , which are commonly played cards.
Your deck's curve is also a little off. I think you need more 1 drops ( Expedition Map , Wayfarer's Bauble , Mana Vault , Vampiric Tutor , Birds of Paradise , Deathrite Shaman , etc). I would cut some of your 6 drops to make room (you have a lot of 6 drops).
I also think you should make use of ramp spells before you play mana rocks. Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , Nature's Lore , Farseek , Sylvan Scrying , Nissa's Pilgrimage , Search for Tomorrow , and Skyshroud Claim are all just so much better than Gilded Lotus or Golgari Signet .
14 hours ago
Breya is always an interesting deck. I personally like the infinite-mana options; repeatedly casting Breya, then sac-ing her and one of the thopters to bolt an opponent results in game over immediately. I see three ways that are easiest to achieve that goal.
Second, reanimated dragon combo: Worldgorger Dragon with Animate Dead , Necromancy , Dance of the Dead , or any other reanimating enchantment. The Worldgorger (which is reanimated from the yard) trigger exiles the reanimation enchantment, which lets it die, which returns the enchantment, which brings back the dragon... tapping all your lands/mana rocks for mana when they flicker in results in infinite mana. You really need another creature to target to end the loop, but it isn't too difficult to make sure this is the case.
Note that combos 1 and 2 accommodate Entomb effects as a tutor. So if you want to run those combos, Entomb , Buried Alive and/or Faithless Looting and the like are your friends. Note also that 1 and 2 generate infinite ETB triggers. Pairing them with Altar of the Brood allows you to win even if your commander has been countered or removed to oblivion. Furthermore, running Sculpting Steel or Phyrexian Metamorph to copy Sharuum the Hegemon creates a loop where you sac one to the legend rule and then bring back either the original or copying artifact. That also generates infinite ETB triggers, and is a pet combo of mine.
I strongly advise tutors outside the transmute ones. Demonic Tutor , Vampiric Tutor , Imperial Seal , Enlightened Tutor , Reshape , Whir of Invention , Gamble and Transmute Artifact are all in your colors (though some are more easily obtained than others). These will increase your deck's consistency, regardless of whether you decide to use the combo-build.
Depending on your deck's budget, you might want to consider your mana base as a work-in-progress. Slow Fetches like Rocky Tar Pit and Flood Plain are well under a dollar, and work well enough as a replacement for Bloodstained Mire or Flooded Strand . Mana Confluence and City of Brass are also powerhouses in a 4-color deck. You should at least consider Forbidden Orchard .
Ramp is important in any EDH deck. Mind Stone is a good addition, along with Ancient Tomb . I typically don't care for 3-mana rocks, but Chromatic Lantern is good in 4- or 5-color decks. Izzet Signet is a good idea in addition to the other two signets you're running. Non-blue ones aren't nearly as good, but if you really need another, I advise Orzhov Signet over Boros Signet or Rakdos Signet . Sculpting Steel and Phyrexian Metamorph are good ways to copy opponents' rocks as well as your own, or even creatures in the case of the metamorph. Copy Artifact is another option.
Because you're in black, you have access to some real good card draw. Phyrexian Arena and Staff of Nin are good as permanent sources of card-advantage. Ambition's Cost , Ancient Craving , Painful Truths and Chart a Course are all good ways to draw cards as well.
Good luck with deck building.
1 day ago
Ok. So you said you want degenerate, so... here goes.
First off, Braids, Cabal Minion is banned. So you might want to remove it.
You should either be running the fetches, including the off-color ones like Flooded Strand , or run Suppression Field ; this also is a somewhat broader and more applicable answer to planeswalkers than The Elderspell , as it has non-planeswalker target. It puts a damper on the planeswalkers, but I feel like they might be better replaced with board wipes like Wrath of God , Day of Judgment , Damnation or Toxic Deluge . When I played this general, I don't think I ran any creatures; they tend to be easily removed, but their effects may be replaced by enchantments/artifacts (ex: Thorn of Amethyst replaces Thalia, Guardian of Thraben ). Additionally, because Athreos, God of Passage is indestructible, it survives most board wipes. I recommend Erebos, God of the Dead as a second useful god; and in an Oloro meta, it seems particularly applicable. Sphere of Safety and Lightmine Field can serve as further deterrents to attackers; Maze of Ith also fits in well. Serra's Sanctum also is a powerhouse, if combined with a high-enough enchantment count. If you take the creature-less rout, I advise Night of Souls' Betrayal to remove the ability of elf- or dork-based decks to function. You might also consider Cursed Totem .
I see you have Vampiric Tutor in the maybe board. It's massively superior to Diabolic Tutor , if only because of its much lower mana cost; Imperial Seal is a strictly worse version I run in my Kess list, but it is also very good. Bitterblossom is a great inclusion, especially if you're running something like Contamination to mess with everyone's mana.
Mana Crypt is invaluable in cEDH decks. Fragmentize is a good white equivalent to Nature's Claim , especially in metas with low curves. Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace are good techs against graveyard decks like as Gitrog, with the added advantage of allowing a win with a Helm of Obedience activation.
I've never been impressed with 1-for-1s in EDH; by that token, Mortify and Doom Blade may be on the chopping block. Utter End is alright, simply because of its universality. I'd replace these with the above boardwipes, but I also suggest Pox or Smallpox . Pox has the additional advantage of severely lowering your opponents' life totals, so ad nauseum players tend to just cry, and your Painful Quandary becomes more oppressive. Stab Wound , which is another type of 1-for-1, might be better replaced with Palace Siege . Swords to Plowshares is the single 1-for-1 I highly recommend, because of its low cost, exile-based removal, and relatively small downside.
Good luck! Stax em out.
5 days ago
Daedalus19876 Thank you very much for your feedback. The cards you mentioned from my maybes were pretty much the exact ones I've selected so that's very reassuring.
All the other suggestions are great, thank you. I was already swapping Luminarch Ascension for Bitterblossom so good to get your encouragement on that swap. I don't own Vampiric Tutor atm. My current budget substitute is Diabolic Intent which I could use for the same purpose. Any other card draw you could reccomend in place of Damnable Pact ? I just bought a copy of Tymna the Weaver so I guess I can swap in her for Pact. I think Altar's Reap is possibly weak too, but I do sorta like having a surprise instant speed sac effect.
I should have explained but I don't tend to run Toxic Deluge at the moment because there is one guy in our playgroup who always plays big mana big creature green based decks with commmanders including Arixmethes and xenagos. He also runs lots of cards that double creatures power and double +1+1 counters etc so the creatures often end up extremely big so Elenda, the Dusk Rose is often not the biggest creature and Toxic Deluge frustratingly is just not as good as usual against his decks as the amount of life you have to pay is sometimes huge and sometimes even unpayable. It's possible the card is still good enough tho and I should give it more of a try because maybe I've underestimated how I can gain that life back same turn or get to a life total where I can pay. I run Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares for a similar reason but again I'm open to trying out Swords to Plowshares especially as this friend is moving this month so the meta is going to change.
This decklist is still in quite an experimental stage and The Elderspell is something I have been just trying, partly as an alt wincon with the new Liliana, Dreadhorde General . I agree that it seems loose and I should cut it for one of the ones you highly recommend like Reaper from the Abyss .
I have a copy of Bolas's Citadel and would never have thought of it for this deck so thanks so much for that idea. I'll def try it. I will add back Swiftfoot Boots too but I cut Lightning Greaves because it stops me targeting Elenda, the Dusk Rose with effects like Hatred and Shizo, Death's Storehouse . Do you def think Lightning Greaves is better given that drawback?
One new card I was extremely impressed with was God-Eternal Bontu I ended up 1v1 against my friend on a Ruric Thar deck and I was recurring Bontu and he was recurring Ilharg, the Raze-Boar and the card advantage from Bontu in a token deck won out.
6 days ago
skillz2125, so true. Especially the good ones like: Demonic Tutor , Vampiric Tutor and the most expensive of them all: Imperial Seal . The best one I own is Diabolic Intent but that's in another deck. I suppose Corpse Harvester is, and he's obviously in here but thats on a creature. Other than that though, I have Diabolic Tutor and Razaketh's Rite and Mastermind's Acquisition available but theyre so expensive CMC wise. And I wouldnt even know what to cut for them.
6 days ago
Looks solid depending on the tournament's power level. Your mana curve... hmm. Not sure about that. You don't have many 1 and 2 drops but with Edgar's Eminence ability you want to start dropping vampires asap. Also some ramp may be helpfull.
4 boardwipes for a creature reliant deck? Well, I guess better to have one when you need it than... And what about tutors? You probably could swap 2 of the boardwipes for Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor . Would add some flexibility. Also if you play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth you probably want to add Cabal Coffers too.
You may take a look at my Vampire deck I build recently. Maybe you see some stuff that could fit in here as well.
6 days ago
My first thought would be to reduce the number of lands you control that enter the battlefield tapped. They're a significant issue for this deck IMO, since WB doesn't have access to especially good acceleration as-is. Your enchantment suite is good, though I'd be cautious about Luminarch Ascension (I wouldn't run it without Cataclysm in the deck).
I find that Damnable Pact is generally a bad return on card draw; I'd run something like Vampiric Tutor to grab Skullclamp instead. I'm not convinced by The Elderspell here unless you play in a meta with a significant number of PWs (this deck isn't generally one where you want to eat your own PWs to get a boost in loyalty). Careful with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - he can sometimes backfire when you'd rather get the death trigger than the token. Swords to Plowshares is significantly better than Path to Exile in this deck. I'd cut one land for Fellwar Stone , probably. I'm surprised not to see Lightning Greaves in here, since it's good at protecting Elenda from the dreaded exile effects. The other glaring exclusion is Toxic Deluge , which is an INCREDIBLE board wipe for this deck (since you can tailor it to not kill Elenda under most circumstances, and immediately gain back far more life). I'm curious if you've considered Bolas's Citadel , since it works very well with Pox -style effects in a deck like this that can gain back life. From your maybeboard, I'd most highly recommend Fleshbag Marauder , Hero of Bladehold , Merciless Executioner , Reaper from the Abyss , and Sadistic Hypnotist .
Hope that helps! Deck looks pretty good to me ;) and I'm flattered by you linking my primer in the description!
6 days ago
To answer your questions:
You are missing Pitiless Plunderer from Control_Train's four card combo of Chainer, Dementia Master , Izoni, Thousand-Eyed and Savra, Queen of the Golgari . This dovetails into my first question. How does this deck win? I'm in no way on the move to play a combo. Plus a 4 card combo in my opinion is maybe a bit janky to pull off. I don't have the feeling I miss the mana/ramp to include Pitiless Plunderer . Chainer, Izoni and Savra all stand on their own and perform a lot of work.
Would this deck benefit from an all star closer in green, Craterhoof Behemoth ? Short answer? No. Craterhoof Behemoth is a typical go wide card. Most of the time I have around 3-4 creatures on the board. Craterhoof would do nothing for my deck.
I really liked your inclusion of Mindslicer . I just pulled one from my box last night and was planning to put it into the deck. Sheoldred, Whispering One had been on my radar for a while. Well credits for that one go to you, my friend. ;-) I had it in my binder and when you mentioned it I looked at it and went why not! Let's at least give it a try. Sheoldred, Whispering One is an all star and I would always run it in any meren deck.
Do you find that you need three boardwipes, Damnation , Toxic Deluge , and Living Death ? This deck plays more removal than any I have seen in a while. I count 13 cards, with the addition of Casualties of War , that serve this function and that is excluding Sheoldred, Whispering One and the graveyard removal cards. For now I don't have the feeling I'm running too much removal. The goal of the deck is pretty much winning the grind. So wiping the board + destroying and removing stuff is the main goal of this deck. I need to playtest waaaay more to figure out if I run too much. To look closer at the cards you mentioned. If I need to cut Damnation would be the first one. I just always have the feeling it's a welcome card to draw. Toxic Deluge is brilliant and it's an early boardwipe to disrupt our opponents. Living Death serves more as a reanimation card, then it is a boardwipe. My creatures are most of the time in the graveyard. It's basically a win con on it's own.
Could I make an argument that Imperial Seal is superior to Final Parting ? Would you include both? What would you cut? Superior, absolutely. It's basically another Vampiric Tutor . Unfortunately I'm not made of money and I simply don't own that card. That being said, most of my games I got to play Final Parting. And with Meren out on the table I would rather draw into a Final Parting then a Imperial Seal . Playing Final Parting means I get one card to my hand (any) and one creature to the battlefield at the end of our turn. That's where the power comes in from this tutor! Next to this. Imperial Seal is sorcery speed. So if we have no draw engine, we need to wait an entire turn. But if you have one laying around, I would just playtest them both a bit. See wich one feels better.
Why are you and Control_Train playing only one fetchland? I love fetches and normally I stuff my deck full with them :). But in this deck I don't have the feeling I'm missing them too much. I have 5 decks and 3 of them run all the fetches they can. One is Omnath, Locus of Rage (dont think I need to explain). Queen Marchesa a control deck, so it's important I get my colors and shuffle effects. This deck is more, if I have green and black I'm good to go. The fetch is more there to go to my shock. If I had more lands that gave double color and that I could fetch I would run 1 more. In my opinion, 3+ color decks and decks that want their decks shuffled benefit more of fetches. It's a personal preference.
You only have 13 basic lands to be utilized by Earthcraft . Has that been consistently sufficient? Earthcraft I'm still in doubt on as well. I mentioned it at Control_Train as well. The card often feels a bit underused. But early game it helps to get my bigger dudes out faster. The card is not in there to be super abused since we often only have about 3-4 creatures on the field. So yeah you might be right on that. For now it stays in but it's on the shitlist.
I thought Control_Train's argument for the exclusion of Gaea's Cradle was not his strongest. Do you agree with what he said? I totally agree with his argument. I own one copy of Gaea's Cradle and I run it in Omnath, Locus of Rage where it does all the work and really keep the engine going. In meren we probably will have a cradle tapping for 2-3 lategame. And tbh we don't need the ramp. Cradle is a super nice card, but it's a bit of the same argument why I don't run Craterhoof Behemoth
You didn't follow Control_Train's lead and cut Dread Return or Soul of the Harvest . As we speak I have my deck in front of me ;) And those 2 are laying outside of the deck. Now just checking what to put back in. Solemn Simulacrum is on it's way into the deck I think. Since he ramps and draws cards, but as you just mentioned I only run 13 basics and with also 2 other creatures who do so he might not be the strongest pick. I also laid out my curve and Birthing Pod might be on its way back in. Phyrexian Obliterator might also going back in, since he is a nice target to recur at 4 mana for a 5/5. It also stops people from attacking you. If you have any other good suggestions I would love to hear them!
What would you cut if you added Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves ? Do you not have issues with Meren getting removed? If you really want to play a sol ring maybe Dread Return ? Honestly I never really had the feeling I missed not having a sol ring in a deck. Lightning Greaves is maybe a good addition. The thing is with Sylvan Safekeeper he is recurrable. Lightning Greaves will definately get destroyed. Or at least in my meta people love blowing up boots/greaves. If you really want to play it, I think Prowling Serpopard if you run it now?
Dark Confidant in theory seems very dangerous in a deck with as high as a mana cost as this one. Am I way off base? The thing what makes Dark Confidant so good and for example Dark Tutelage absolute trash, is the fact that it's a creature. He is the one example where you don't want him to stick around. Enchantments stick around, creatures don't. Early game he is a powerhouse and an awesome target to dump in a meatgrinder after a few turns!
Vampiric Tutor occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.15%
U/B (Dimir): 1.17%
W/B (Orzhov): 0.46%
W/U/B (Esper): 1.09%
RBW (Mardu): 0.67%
U/B/R (Grixis): 0.88%
BUG (Sultai): 0.77%