|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Eternal Masters (EMA)||Rare|
|Commander 2013 (C13)||Rare|
Combos Browse all
As an additional cost to cast Toxic Deluge, pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.
Price & Acquistion Set Price Alerts
Toxic Deluge Discussion
59 minutes ago
He has 17 green creatures at 3 mana and under. While there is the chance of drawing Order without a green creature, there's higher odds of drawing Pattern or Rector with no sac outlet, etc.. Natural Order absolutely deserves a slot in this deck.
As a quick aside, I do see that you have those cards I mentioned in your maybeboard. Whoops. Well, let me give some more in-depth advice now.
Manglehorn is a very solid new addition to a lot of competitive green decks, and this deck would be no real exception.
Toxic Deluge may be an invaluable little card in the event you have to play against Blood Pod or some variant of Stax (Captain Sisay, for example) in competitive pods. It also gives you another way to get Rector or Hulk put into the graveyard should you have 2B open, which is something I've actually had to do more than once (Blood Pod is kind of a pain in the ass for a graveyard-centric deck to deal with which is why I recommend some things to interact with it. If you have 0 Blood Pod in your meta, ignore this unless you think the added sweeper will be helpful.
As for what to remove: I'm not too big on Elvish Piper: Everything this deck wants to do, it can do through Pattern, Natural Order, or discard + recursion enchantment. Or, hell, ramping up to 7 and casting it is oftentimes easier than trying to stick a 4 mana summoning sick creature who either puts in a 7 mana creature (Hulk) or creatures with a lower cmc than itself lol. Loyal Retainers may also be one you could safely cut, because while it's great with the Saffi win condition, Renegade Rallier now does that better (so you can do Rector + Seer + Whatever first time, sac Rector for Animate Dead, then get Rallier + Cutthroat + Whatever because Rallier can bring back Animate Dead. Sac Rallier with his trigger on the stack, trigger resolves, Animate Dead returns and brings Rallier back, repeat until everyone is dead, or you can do another line of Hulk to win some other route if you wanted). Rallier also works with a sac outlet + Saffi for this same combo, so while Retainers can bring back 3 creatures in the deck (not including the Commanders), you have other lines you can combo off with. Of course, there may also be some use for Retainers I'm not seeing beyond the limited utility and the Saffi + It + Cutthroat line that Rallier can do, too (and I miss things often, so I'm open to hearing how lol).
I'm also assuming that Bloom Tender will be replacing Sylvan Caryatid once you obtain one? That will be a good call too.
I personally played Cabal Therapy and think it may deserve a slot in here too.
2 days ago
SynergyBuild, I made some adjustments. Windfall and Toxic Deluge added. I also included Detention Sphere, Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light and Grasp of Fate to remove any pesky nonland problems. I feel the adjustments will better suit the meta.
I didn’t add Swan Song because of a 2/2 flying blocker. Even though we could always decide to go around that and become unblockable, but it’s always best to hit hard and fast. Didn’t think I had enough blue to justify the addition of Force of Will. I usually don’t include Arcane Denial, too often in my decks, just because I hate that my opponent gets value from it. So I just stuck with plain, boring Counterspell.
3 days ago
I understand Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune combo perfectky well, simply in a competitive environment, either one will be countered, or they will be removed with something like Chain of Vaporing the Archangel, in response to the first activation of Spike Feeder. That is a blowout like a Time Walk since you can't activate it again without killing the Spike Weaver. Felidar Sovereign with Chord of Calling is your best actual wincon, but I mean... 9 mana/creatures? What turn are you on? If this deck consistently puts out creatures and mana like that by turn 3, since you need to win by turn 4 at the latest for this to be a combo/aggro cEDH deck, then run it, I just don't think that is plausible.
2/2 Cats aren't a real strategy on their own. They don't make mana, and so don't combo out and win, simply put, I could get into Commander theory and the 'Aggro Problem', but I will just copy and paste the work I already did for something else:
This is too much for them. Generally there are a few way aggro compensates, one of which abuses the already built-in system of 'Commander Damage.' Building up a ton of auras and equipment on a commander to make it huge and swing in for 21 damage works in a lot of cases, and is called "Voltron." The main issue with this is a cheap and fast commander like Rafiq of the Many is too easily prone to removal like Swords to Plowshares, and more controlling commander like Sigarda, Host of Herons or Uril, the Miststalker are generally a bit too , slow to get around board wipes like Toxic Deluge, Wrath of God, Damnation, Day of Judgment and Supreme Verdict.
But there are other tricks aggro has up its sleeves, think infect. Really, infect is just as powerful in Modern or Legacy than in EDH, right? Well, not exactly, yes infect still only needs to deal 10 poison counters to kill a player, but you still have to deal at least 30 damage given your opponents can't kill faster than you, or if they are also playing infect. It's tracked differently, so if someone is at one life, they can take up to 9 poison counters and still live. Running Atraxa, Praetors' Voice can give some inevitability to your infect win, and stuff like Saskia the Unyielding can also be run to make you only have to deal 20 damage to win with infect.
The biggest issue with infect is that players generally frown upon it, and will target you, or player cards like Solemnity as a counter to it. Some playgroups set the poison counters needed to kill to 15 or 20, and some outright ban it. Also, since there are no commanders other than Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon directly support it, there is little consistency to infect decks, despite there explosive turns and wins.
Well, that is the aggro problem, it is what leads so many decks to be control, midrange, combo, or hybrid builds, and why the format is generally considered slow. This isn't to say decks can't win turn 1 or anything, tons of combo decks can, however, this is what leads to the final point. Combo is generally the best win condition, not to say a deck like Edric, Spymaster of Trest shouldn't beat face to win, but for most decks, combo with differing levels of disruption is the best strategy.
Many playgroups don't use combos, whether they are more casual, frown upon combo, outright ban it, or simply run more beatdown strategies and don't care for combo particularly. This is perfectly fine, and reasonable, but it is the work-around for the aggro problem, while not relying solely on control.
Okay, so now you see the problem with aggro, and why 2/2 cats in essence aren't a wincon, Archangel of Thune can be removed in response to the first Spike Weaver activation, and so aren't as instant win as you thought, and even so, unless you have enough creatures to kill each other player, it isn't going to win the game, as they will simply win on their turn, in a cEDH meta. Since Felidar Guardian combo is too slow generally, and you only run 4 tutors for the Thune-Weaver Combo, it isn't a fast combo deck.
That isn't to say it isn't competitive, you could make it stax, run the fast elf-ramp, and Armageddon until you win, but that still requires a different gameplan.
Again, all of this is meaningless if you don't want to make it stax or fast combo, but without blue, your card draw isn't their for permission control, and that means you aren't able to consistently make this cEDH competitive, but I won't claim it is bad or anything, it is simply a high-powered mid-level EDH deck, and I think that is fine.
On ramp, most of the options you mentioned were sub-par, Tithe, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip, Mirari's Wake all are either too expensive or not impactful enough, 1 mana ramp is where you want to be, the fast rocks, Ancient Tomb/Gaea's Cradle/Gemstone Caverns, elves, etc.
3 days ago
So after tweeking the mana base and looking at your choices, is there any reason your not running Toxic Deluge over Wrath of God as another answer to an indestructable board or is it just the budget restriction? I also oped to replace Mistmeadow Witch with Archaeomancer and have seen a much higher close rate in my group. I found with how much we dig 1 copy of Deja Vu on a stick is usually enough. Also you can pick it with AEthermage's Touch, choose the touch with the ETB and not blink the mancer to just get both back to your hand.
4 days ago
And yeah, the value of particular cards can really depend on how many people are running full cEDH lists or just strong pub-stomp decks. Toxic Deluge is played reasonably often in the cEDH meta, and most blue decks run Cyclonic Rift in case the game actually goes long, but other wraths are pretty scarce. I occasionally also see Fire Covenant pop up in some lists. It's hard to justify playing a 4+ cmc wrath spell in cEDH because most decks don't play a lot of creatures and cEDH decks can often threaten to just win the game on turn 4 instead of spending that mana on wrathing the board.
Have any cEDH focused groups like the Lab Maniacs or people on the cEDH Reddit written an article detailing how cEDH differs from a strong pub-stomp meta? That would be an interesting discussion to have because the cEDH meta really is a unique beast when it comes to EDH. The difference is kind of like the difference between the Modern and Vintage formats, and you can see it in how cards like Mental Misstep are actually a viable option to run in cEDH due to the low CMC cards that are usually run. Mental Misstep would be a complete waste of a card slot in less competitive metas because its range of possible targets would be too narrow. Faerie Macabre is another one of those cEDH meta cards that you aren't likely to see in other metas. There are enough degenerate graveyard interactions in cEDH that being able to get the faerie's free removal ability at instant speed from hand can make it a reasonable deck inclusion depending on the decks your group runs, but in other EDH metas the overall game impact that the card has probably wouldn't be enough for it to stay in a deck for very long. It would be really neat to read a comprehensive article that digs into the different deck-building philosophies that define cEDH.
1 week ago
Looking good so far I'll just add a few notes if thats ok. Probably replace one of those Acquire with Bribery. Coalition Relic is strictly better than Obelisk of Grixis. While Dragon Blood isn't the worst I think Unspeakable Symbol is most likely better (6 mana for the first +1 counter is rough) especially since you need kinda low life to trigger dethrone. Feast on the Fallen is a card that seems good but that I don't super like since to get max value out of it relies on your opponents attacking each other instead of you. Finally Fork or Twincast are always better than Doublecast.
I did not know this until today, not only does Marchesa's ability effect herself but it still triggers if she herself isn't on the battlefield so wrath effects like Damnation,Toxic Deluge and Blasphemous Act will basically only effect your opponents.
Soul Channeling is some sweet old school tech but I'd rather get haste so you can get those counters on asap since once they're on your team is safe, Fervor and Lightning Greaves are classics, Bloodsworn Steward, Urabrask the Hidden, and Dragonlord Kolaghan are also fair options.
On the creature front I won't say too much more other than maybe cosider a few cards that just get +1/+1 counters in other ways like Scourge of the Throne, Markov Blademaster, and Taurean Mauler. Although none of those are compulsory inclusions by any means.
ps. you might like Wild Ricochet
1 week ago
Also consider Windfall, Timetwister, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Rapid Hybridization, Pongify, Dismember, Into the Roil, Blink of an Eye, Toxic Deluge, Grasp of Fate, Dispel, Mindbreak Trap, Spell Pierce, Remand, or Silence, they are all great esper control cards, and different packages of them lead to a very strong control build, but should be tuned for your meta accordingly!
Good luck my friend!
1 week ago
Not terribly creative this time, but where's your Toxic Deluge?