|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Masters 25 (A25)||Rare|
|Commander Anthology (CM1)||Rare|
|Commander 2015 (C15)||Rare|
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Blue Sun's Zenith
Target player draws X cards. Shuffle Blue Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
|Have (22)||ironax , Fleshxandxbone , marcus638 , mziter501 , SirFowler , webdokkeren , redlegs_17 , REV666 , EliGjerdingen , switchkill65 , LoneCrusader399 , joshw335 , frederiklw , Reliva , superdude2431 , Melmo , Epidilius , The_Munchkin , Va1mar , FALLEN-X-ANGEL , mazrimtaim , Horizon97|
|Want (3)||vashaclarens , helium2 , binarysecond|
Blue Sun's Zenith Discussion
2 hours ago
The deck looks like it would play well. I am a big advocate of Stalking Vengeance . I was surprised to not see Blue Sun's Zenith . It looks like you have enough wheel to consistently pump out tokens, maybe a few combat tricks to pump the team? I found a few cards on your list that might make my The Old Grixis Mill deck.
2 days ago
If you're running Guile in a stax deck, you should be running Dovescape .
With Grand Arbiter+Pili-Pala combo, you should probably run some X draw spells. Blue Sun's Zenith , Sphinx's Revelation , and Pull from Tomorrow are your friends. If you want to make that a central part of your game plan, Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal is an easy one to run, and Muddle the Mixture is a good budget tutor for both pieces that has utility, as well as being able to get Pili-Pala and Pull From Tomorrow. You can then win on that turn with Approach of the Second Sun.
If you're going to run a bunch of Armageddon effects, I would also run Faith's Reward .
3 days ago
Blue Sun's Zenith should probably replace Mind Spring . Costing one more shouldn’t matter to a deck like this, but also instead of Spring you can point it at your opponent with infinite mana to deck them out
1 week ago
I think what this deck wants is some ways to make infinite mana. The one that would be best, in my mind is Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter . You'll want more mana rocks, although I think you want more anyway, but with that combo, you can power out Blightsteel or proliferate out the table with Contagion Engine , Contagion Clasp , or Viral Drake . You'll want the typical Muddle the Mixture to grab the combo, and artifact tutors such as Whir of Invention , Fabricate , and Tezzeret the Seeker can get your Engine and Clasp, as well.
A cheaper alternative is the old Pauper Peregrine Drake combo. You use Ghostly Flicker , Illusionist's Stratagem , or Displace to blink Drake, Great Whale , or Palinchron with Mnemonic Wall , Archaeomancer , or Salvager of Secrets , returning the instant each time.
I'm also surprised not to see Corrupted Conscience in here. Love that card.
As for cuts, I'm not really sure what Helm of the Host is doing here. It's not your commander you want more of, it's infect creatures. For that kind of mana, you could just kick Rite of Replication . Not really sure what Telepathy is for. If anything, you don't want the table to know when the infect player is a danger. Borrowing 100,000 Arrows has always been a pet card of mine, but making the kind of mana you are, you want X spells. Blue Sun's Zenith , Open Into Wonder , and Pull from Tomorrow are you friends.
Since you're limited on infect creatures, you might want normal clone effects. Phantasmal Image is cheap. Gigantoplasm can copy an infect creature and one-shot people, Quicksilver Gargantuan to a lesser extent. Phyrexian Metamorph is flexible. Vizier of Many Faces has recursion. Stunt Double can surprise the table by speeding up the clock just before your turn. Fated Infatuation comes with card selection. Mirror of the Forebears survives board wipes. Cackling Counterpart , Stolen Identity , Quasiduplicate , and Saheeli's Artistry can all copy creatures multiple times.
1 week ago
As a fellow Mizzix player I can give you some insight based on my experience. Based on your build I would take out Mizzix's Mastery . I know, it is a fantastic card but since you are playing so many X costed spells you can't really take advantage of it since it forces you to play them without paying their manacost which means that X is equal to 0.
Here is a list of cards I have in my deck which work pretty well (in no particular order): - Blue Sun's Zenith this card can be crazy with enough counters. I even managed to kill a player by making him draw 80 cards with it. - The Mirari Conjecture get back your precious spells and unleash hell. - Invert / Invent basically playing it for Invent. - Apex of Power with enough experience counters this just wins the game. - Karn's Temporal Sundering This can honestly be any extra turn spell but this has the bonus of bouncing an annoying permanent. I had one lying around and I put it in. - Jaya's Immolating Inferno This one is really really good.
Thanks for the list since it showed me some cards that I had completely forgotten about so I hope that I helped you as well. Happy spellslinging!
2 weeks ago
Having cards that can tutor for Tide are helpful: Mystical Tutor , Spellseeker , Merchant Scroll . If you're able to splurge for one card get Mystical because it's so versatile instant for one mana that can be recurred. Blue Sun's Zenith and Pull from Tomorrow are draw spells which you can put a ton of mana into thanks to Tide.
Budget mana rocks to consider: Sol Ring , Mind Stone , Everflowing Chalice , Fellwar Stone , Prismatic Lens , Wayfarer's Bauble , Gilded Lotus . Thought Vessel is another one and it's very good, but not budget even though it's a damn common. Sapphire Medallion and Baral, Chief of Compliance are not mana rocks, but they're two drops who can reduce the mana cost of most of the rest of the spells which is just as good, but they may be too much for the budget here.
High Tide Talrand (Budget) is my $160 Talrand deck. Maybe it can give you some ideas, feel free to use it as inspiration.
Good luck with your deck.
2 weeks ago
You could add mana rocks and then Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal (neither of which are bad in the deck by themselves). This combo by itself with 2 mana production gives you infinite drake's. At 3 mana production you have infinite mana, which you can channel into Blue Sun's Zenith ing each of your opponents. Using Whispers of the Muse (again, good with talrand) is another draw to help you dig for your win con once you have infinite mana.
2 weeks ago
I was intrigued and looked for your list, but I didn't see it on TappedOut. We should compare, at the very least!
In any case, sorry it took so long to write this response. I wanted to try and break down what I think are your main points, and, well, I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but here's what I got out of your comment:
The way I read it, it looks like you're saying the deck needs to be slower. This reading is a little unfair on my part, possibly a little too overly hostile, but, I mean, I can't fathom a turn-six kill when I play a card like Peregrination on turn four. Like, that's just not going to happen. And if you're arguing that the deck becomes more able to grind, well, I have two problems with that:
First, I guess I don't know your meta entirely, but do non-optomized tables not just gun for Sasaya immediately? Like, even just reading what she does kind of sets off some alarm bells, doesn't it? I know everytime I play with somebody new, whenever I get to the "So if I have six Forests out, they all tap for six green" bit, the inevitable response is something akin to "Oh, that's not good." And then if the combo does work, all the more incentive to get targeted next game, or next week, or whenever I play the deck again. That's why I aim for speed above everything else, because if I don't, well, I just get run over.
Second, the methods you suggest of becoming more resilient don't really work? Like, yeah, Howling Mine has its uses, but I'd really rather not give my opponents more cards to beat me with, because I'm still the target. It's also why I'm skeptical of Oath of Druids . It's not that I probably won't get free stuff, it's that other people get free stuff first, and when Sasaya's on top of the hill -- a position the deck's going to be in until it's dead -- all that free stuff is headed right at me. I figure you disagree with me about this -- I mean, you did talk about how people want to deal with other people's threats -- but that really hasn't been my experience.
Incidentally, these are the reasons I cut utility lands as well. They do have a use. Of course they have a use. But that use is kind of marginal when just playing them makes the deck slower. If they were named "Forest" or "Snow-Covered Forest", we might be talking, but they're not. The only instance I can imagine where that wouldn't be the case is hitting one off of Oracle of Mul Daya , and that seems kind of marginal at best. I've mentioned this before, but sometimes I'm not even sure Scrying Sheets belongs in this deck.
But, speaking of Utility lands, let's talk Reliquary Tower . Or, I guess more specifically, "no max hand size" effects and why I think they're bad/overrated:
So the consensus as far as I understand it in "real EDH" (read: non-Sasaya) circles is that these cards (Reliquary Tower specifically, though I imagine Spellbook and Library of Leng have similar reasoning (at least Thought Vessel is a mana rock)) are kind of win-more. Like, there is definitely the feel-bad psychological effect of casting a big Blue Sun's Zenith , not finding an outlet for all those cards, and having to discard all the way back down to seven, effectively wasting all that mana, but if you think about it, at the end of the day you're still keeping seven really good cards. So that plus the fact that the graveyard is much more of a resource in EDH than almost anywhere else, and the "no max hand size" effect starts to lose its luster.
But let's talk about Sasaya specifically. As you mentioned, seven lands is a lot of hand space. Under normal circumstances, that means you'll only really have room for one payoff spell, so it better be a good one (put a pin in this idea, we'll come back to it in a bit). But there are alternatives. Last paragraph, I talked about the feel-bad of not getting to keep that big hand, but remember how that big hand happened in the first place: a Blue Sun's Zenith. More specific to my point: an instant.
Continuing this thought experiment a little further, let's ask why a player might cast a 7+ card draw spell in the first place. One might imagine that a player casts such a draw spell hoping for an effect that removes their hand limit, but that's not the only possibility. They could also be looking for a specific combo -- a way to end the game. Compare that to Sasaya's instant-speed land searchers (a special shout-out to Yavimaya Elder !). In Sasaya's case, the payoff effect we're looking for is already in the Command Zone.
In my opinion, therefore, the deck doesn't need its hand limit removed because there are enough effects that ignore that limitation, and cards like Expedition Map that can find these cards aren't actually that good.
But the "why" for that specific claim is a different topic entirely. Let's talk about it!
In your post, you mentioned that cards like Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , and Peregrination were all "ideal ramp spells" for a Sasaya player, as they also added a land to the hand, therefore ending up card-positive. Now, I already dismissed Peregrination out of hand for being too slow, but it's important to include it here as well because I feel it has the same other trappings that might encourage a Sasaya player to play these cards. In short, I posit that these cards are, in fact, card-neutral at best.
This applies to Renegade Map et al. as well, but I'm just going to focus on the sorceries just for simplicity's sake. Let's examine a typical goldfish turn. First, the draw step. Obviously, they're at plus one card. Then, the goldfish plays a land, removing a card, then playing a non-land, which is minus another. If that non-land is a Cultivate effect, that only adds one card back, which leaves the goldfish more or less where they started. Because ramp becomes negligible once Sasaya flips (while there is certainly a difference between, say, eightteen starting mana and twenty-eight, I find it's not enough to worry about, and the difference between twenty-eight and forty is even less), that means the goldfish is spending three mana on nothing much at all (as a sidenote, you might notice Nissa's Pilgrimage and Evolution Charm in the deck, which seem to contradict this point. However, both of these cards have occasional upside potential. It doesn't always happen (and, in Pilgrimage's case, certainly never on Turn 3), but circumstances for it do exist, so they keep their slots).
The solution some Sasaya players offer is to stop making land drops, but that seems so tempo-negative to me. I feel that, if I do continue making land-drops, eventually I'll be able to cast these giant threats without the help of Sasaya, and could easily win the game that way.
Lastly, before I get into specific cards, I wanted to talk about the ramp spells I do play. Namely Azusa, Lost but Seeking and similar effects. I already mentioned the speed aspect of my build, and these cards are a part of that. To be more specific, these cards are in the deck to turn cards like Chord of Calling and Citanul Flute into more ramp if necessary, which, when you're going for a Sasaya flip and a kill in the same turn, is worth having in the toolbox. But these cards also function as pseudo-alternate win-conditions. As I alluded to just a paragraph above, the only difference between tapping ten lands for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and tapping one or two is how smug the caster gets to feel. But the caster still gets an eldrazi in either method, so I don't think the difference in smugness is very big.
So now we come back to that pin I made earlier. Let's talk card specifics. Now, I've tried to go through a lot of these already, sifting through to get at your main points, but there are some notable stragglers, so let's take a look:
Summer Bloom : I've tried it. The problem is, because it's a one-shot effect, it's way too dead pre-flip. Azusa and her kin are both tutorable and stick around, so they're just better.
Skyship Weatherlight : This and Book of Rass are my two favorite suggestions, and I definitely want to try playing around with them on paper instead of just theorycrafting. If there's anything you take from this too-long screed, I want to thank you for bringing these cards to my attention.
Goblin Cannon : This was suggested before and I didn't really dismiss it off-hand, though I did ask "What do I cut?" I didn't have a good answer, then, though maybe it's -1 Akroma's Memorial , Hydra Broodmaster , and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa for +1 Goblin Cannon , Book of Rass , and Skyship Weatherlight ? I'm still hesitant because Kamahl at least is fine pre-flip (Broodmaster is bad yes, but not terrible. At least, I think there's a difference there), not to mention in my meta, effects like Crawlspace and Ensnaring Bridge are less popular than Leyline of Sanctity or even Aegis of the Gods . I guess there I'll have to test and see. You're right, by the way, about Akroma's Memorial being pretty dead 99% of the time, but it's the best haste outlet, and specific kill's been good enough for me.
If I didn't mention a card here, it's because it obviously is different from either my strategy as I've listed in various places, or is implicitly against the deckbuilding philosophy of my particular list. Or maybe I missed it, and you can bring it up if/when you respond.
In any case, thanks for the comment, and keep fighting the mono-green combo fight!
Blue Sun's Zenith occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.32%
G/U (Simic): 0.97%
W/U (Azorius): 0.19%
U/R (Izzet): 1.64%
U/B (Dimir): 0.1%
BUG (Sultai): 0.1%
U/B/R (Grixis): 0.08%
GWU (Bant): 0.07%
W/U/B (Esper): 0.05%
All decks: 0.04%
All decks: 0.01%