: Add to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play artifact spells.
|Want (2)||MRB_Alters , hkobrinetz|
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|Vintage Masters (VMA)||Rare|
|Masters Edition IV (ME4)||Rare|
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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Mishra's Workshop occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%
Mishra's Workshop Discussion
1 month ago
I made a relatively similar deck with Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy as commander. Mishra's Workshop might be good in your deck, but it is very expensive. I also found that Shimmer Myr or Vedalken Orrery go very well with Unwinding Clock. Looks good!
3 months ago
That explains a lot. The modern day legacy and vintage decks are very different from the ones back in the day.
If you haven't already, I'd look at some of the decklists at MTG goldfish or mtgtop8. Looking at those decks should give a decent idea of the power level of these decks. In vintage the big 3 decks are Artifacts with Mishra's Workshop, Dredge decks with Bazaar of Baghdad, and some blue deck held together by Force of Will.The exact versions of these decks vary drastically, especially among the blue decks, but almost every vintage deck plays one of those 3 cards, and sometimes multiple.
While those cards are expensive, there are a lot of very powerful cards which are affordable. Since you play white weenies, I recommend 4 copies of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. It is by far the most important creature card printed in recent history. It holds entire archetypes together across multiple formats.
3 months ago
jaymc1130 Thats intresting. Im in love with Mesmeric Orb. I think its fantastic as an early play to start digging through the deck at each upkeep. It wins the game with Basalt Monolith, and Emry. It also wins the game together with Mirran Spy + Lotus Petal or Lion's Eye Diamond. Scepter combo also wins the game with the orb.
I ended up cutting Candelabra of Tawnos as I felt that it diddnt provide enough utility when I drew it. I believe the posibility of a strong hightide turn is not worth the downside of drawing a card that untaps Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad and other utility lands as you mentioned.
Minamo, School at Water's Edge has no downside other than not having synnergy with hightide and being hit by Blood Moon once every x games. It's ability may also be copied with Rings of Brighthearth. Definetly worth the slot!
4 months ago
In a cEDH setting, Nin is an artifact combo list with a healthy dose of interaction and a little stax. This is because we are slightly slower than the dedicated fast combo decks anyway (Food Chain, Storm, Flash Hulk, etc.), so it is best to pack more interaction to help control the game until we can safely win. Yes, I know Thrasios is king of the infinite mana generals, but I've got a soft spot for Nin and I've enjoyed tweaking the absolute highest power list with her as possible over the years. (I'm confident she's solid tier 2 material. She actually has some advantages over fish man!)
I'll start with the deck's plan, win conditions, my local meta, then break down the card choices by card type. To keep this from being the length of your average thesis, I'm not going to go in-depth into play patterns and such, but I hope you can absorb some of that type of information from my discussion on each of the cards in the list.
Basic Metrics / Gameplan:
Land count: 31
Average CMC: 1.81
cEDH Nin is an infinite mana combo deck. I have tried everything else (Theft, Storm, Sneak Attack Eldrazi) but nothing matches the power and efficiency of the artifact mana kill. Our gameplan is to generate infinite mana using one of our compact 2-card combos and find an outlet to kill the table. Nin fills the role nicely since infinite mana with Nin means you draw your deck (and win, presumably).
Here's how you can get infinite mana:
After you have infinite mana, you have a few options. In order to win, you usually play Walking Ballista for X = 1 million and activate its second ability a million times (holding priority) to kill the table. If you don't have it in hand, you can use Nin, the Pain Artist's ability on herself (or another creature you control) to draw your deck. You can also use Staff of Domination (or the suite of artifact tutors to find Staff) to achieve the same effect. If the Ballista gets exiled somehow, you can still kill the table with Expansion / Explosion by casting it and flashing it back with Mission Briefing. If everything has gone wrong and none of those options are available, it's time to start hitting opponents' creatures with Nin to deck them.
Why Nin over X General?
First, no, Nin is not as strong as 4-color Thrasios (No deck is, I believe it is the best deck in the format). This is partially since Thrasios doesn't care about summoning sickness to draw your library, and the extra colors allow you to take advantage of the best green and black spells out there.
But, Nin has a few unique advantages that I've found very enticing. First, the red splash offers a variety of helpful stax pieces (Blood Moon, Stranglehold) and enables unique cards that few other cEDH decks can take advantage of (Dack Fayden). This makes for a deck with all the payoff cards of a mono blue deck (High Tide, Vedalken Shackles) while still having the spiciest interaction. Second, she can hit herself midgame to refill your hand when running low on gas. Since cEDH is so fast and mana costs are so low, it's common for decks to peeter out quickly without a good draw engine. Nin fits the bill extremely well here, and there have been many situations where I've been able to ping Nin with her ability for 5 cards or so EOT, then win with my massive advantage the next turn. That efficiency just draws more cards than Thrasios/Tymna on average, which gives us an edge.
As for other infinite commanders, most either are useless without infinite mana/storm (Oona, Circu) or need colored mana (Tasigur, Breya) and require more complicated combos than the ones seen in this deck. Among other Izzet commanders, the biggest competition is new Jhoira. But that deck is too glass cannon IMO (reliant on the commander) and is forced to play tons of weaker artifacts just to hit critical mass to reliably draw cards. If Jhoira is taken out, it's very hard to get the ball rolling again. Nin can play both the control role and combo role just as effectively.
As any tuned deck should, this list is tuned for my local playgroup. If you're looking to take inspiration from this deck, feel free to adjust things if you find they won't be as helpful in your pods. cEDH has a lot of silver bullet stax cards, so it's expected to pick and choose the best for your most frequent opponents. On a given day, I'll be against:
Thrasios + Tymna
Chain Veil Teferi
Brago, King Eternal Stax
Yisan, the Wander Bard
Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
Food Chain Tazri
Approximately 8 million Flash Hulk variants (Tasigur is the main one in this group)
All of these are at or near the cEDH level. If you're not against other cEDH decks, don't build a deck like this. You'll be seen as a pubstomper asshole and it's kinda rude.
Let's dive into the decklist. Here you'll find a quick explanation for every card in the list - separated by card type.
Gilded Drake: Simply best in slot for commander theft. Obviously better than just killing an enemy commander since they'll need to kill it to use it again. Plenty of cEDH decks rely on their commander (Yisan, Selvala, Animar, Yannifar, etc.) and this stops them dead in their tracks (particularly greedy decks like Gitrog that don't interact at all).
Dockside Extortionist: Excellent new guy from C19 - he serves as a piece of ramp and leaves a body to be hit by Nin afterwards.
Metalworker: Yikes, what a card. Any card that can generate more mana than it costs is a contender for cEDH, and lil' robot provides. With 3 artifacts in hand, he combos for the win with Staff of Domination. Otherwise, often taps for a lot of mana, then gets sacrificed to Nin for a fresh hand.
Spellseeker: Can find Dramatic Reversal for the combo, Transmute Artifact to find the Scepter, or countermagic to protect the combo if you already have it in hand. If you're really in a pinch, go find Cyclonic Rift.
Trinket Mage: Basically Sol Ring on a stick. Still worth it even at 3 mana. Sometimes can snag Grafdigger's Cage when an opponent is eyeing their graveyard or about to tutor something directly into play.
Snapcaster Mage: Excellent all-arounder. Works as a double of your essential card draw spell or interaction against disruption. I prefer this over Mission Briefing since the body is relevant (you can ping him with Nin later to draw cards).
Tribute Mage: An even better variant, since it can find combo pieces such as the Scepter or Monolith. If you need to, it can find a different rock or hate piece.
Thing in the Ice Flip: A recent addition but welcome one. It blocks well, has a big butt so I can hit it with Nin for cards, and applies pressure when it flips. A 2 mana creature wipe is extremely rewarding, and shines when your meta is dominated by creature combo decks (as mine is).
Walking Ballista: The kill card of choice. With infinite mana, you win the game. Remember to hold priority after each activation of his damage ability to prevent people from interacting with you. Can find it with Trinket Mage, Inventor's Fair, and several other artifact tutors.
Pact of Negation: Cheap countermagic is the king of interaction in cEDH. Who cares about the upkeep cost if you win the game the turn you cast it?
Brainstorm: Legacy staple for a reason. Good here because of our shuffle effects (Ponder, Fetches, tutors, etc.). Handy for hiding cards you want in your library right before a Wheel of Fortune.
Chain of Vapor: No one's going to sac a land to copy it. 1 mana bounce is great.
Galvanic Blast: A metagame choice. Brago, Linvala, Meren, Atraxa, Karador, Zur, and Kess are tough to deal with - Blast helps me efficiently deal with these pesky 4-toughness commanders. Sometimes you just have to kill a commander or lose (Yisan, Selvala, Zur). Most don't expect it, and punishes people who go a little too deep with Ad Nauseum. Most often gets rid of a hatebear, which is just fine. Also is a nice spell to imprint under the Scepter when I'm going for Plan D to win, which has happened a few times.
High Tide: 1 mana to make like 5 mana? OK. 1 mana = 1 card with Nin, so I'm down for that. We have lots of basic islands to afford to play with this.
Mental Misstep: A LOT of cEDH cards are CMC 1. The fact that this is free is even better.
Mystical Tutor: Not much that needs to be said here, generically useful tutor effect.
Swan Song: 1 mana hard counter for 3 card types. The bird doesn't matter.
Pyroblast: It's good disruption and combo protection all in one, especially if you know there will be a lot of countermagic trying to interact with you.
Abrade: Very versatile interaction - either blows up a piece of fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt), hatebear or other relevant creature (Yisan, Thalia, Baby Jace), or stax piece (Trinisphere, Null Rod, etc.). Really helps round out my removal suite since most of my other interaction doesn't hit artifacts or creatures.
Counterspell: Classic. 2 mana is good enough for an unconditional counter.
Cyclonic Rift: One of the remaining board wipes left in the deck, and the one with the most punch. Some decks cut this, but I think Nin makes enough mana to reliably overload it when really necessary.
Dramatic Reversal: Part of the primary combo. Not even terrible when you aren't imprinting it under the scepter, especially when you need to reset Grim Monolith or Mana Vault.
Expansion / Explosion: I'm interested in this as a replacement for Comet Storm (previous back-up plan kill card), so I'm trying it out. You can get Comet storm with Muddle the Mixture, but you can get this with Merchant Scroll. I like that it is a good early interactive spell that can counter opposing counters, or borrow some of black's tutor power when an opponent casts something, all while still being a good outlet for infinite mana when it's time to win (burn an opponent and make another deck themselves, or deck myself and draw into Walking Ballista if I don't have it yet). Besides, I'm not using the burn portion of Comet Storm much since I've been happy with Abrade and Galvanic Blast.
Impulse: Handy and efficient card draw when Nin isn't online. (Can put it under the scepter in grindy games.)
Mana Drain: Oof. I hope you don't need me to explain why this card is busted.
Muddle the Mixture: Secret powerhouse. It finds both pieces of Plan A and Plan B combos, and can also counter things when needed.
Narset's Reversal: Wonderfully tricky interactive spell. Can borrow some of black's tutor power while delaying opponents' tutors, or redirect their removal at their own board. This works nicely against counterspells since you can return your own spell to your hand in response, then recast it.
Negate Unless your meta is filled with Elfball and Creature combo decks, negate will always be great.
Whir of Invention: Chord of Calling for artifacts. The fact that this is instant is huge - not much else to say here. It's a tutor = It's good.
Fact or Fiction: Recently added back into the deck. I thought 4 mana was too much, but turns out that's still a great rate for what you get here.
Force of Will: See Pact of Negation. If this was some 4 color nonsense deck, I'd think twice about using this. We're nearly monoblue, so no regrets.
Gitaxian Probe: Free card draw. Useful for checking if the coast is clear to combo off, and 0 mana to get a Paradox Engine trigger sounds great to me.
Ponder: Obviously good card selection. Cheap and effective.
Preordain: See Ponder.
Vandalblast: Every cEDH deck uses fast artifact mana, and most use even more artifacts as engines, stax pieces, or kill cards (Like this deck). 5 mana to kill 8+ mana worth of rocks, Cursed Totem, and your Chain Veil? Insane. 1 mana to get your Sol Ring? Still good.
Merchant Scroll: Obvious generically good tutor. Main targets are counterspells, Dramatic Reversal, and Cyclonic Rift.
Transmute Artifact: Best there is. Easiest tutor to sneak Paradox Engine into play early.
Fabricate: Obvious generically good tutor. A tad expensive, but can't complain.
Pyroclasm: Wrecks the elfball / hatebear decks. I wanted a cheap sweeper to fight against creature decks since most of my remaining removal is designed to fight blue.
Wheel of Fortune: 3 mana for 7 cards. We want as many of these as we can get after dumping mana rocks early. Try to use this right after an opponent tutors for something to hand.
Windfall: See Wheel of Fortune.
Chrome Mox: A lot of these will be busted mana rocks, so let me lay it out here - fast artifact mana is absurd in cEDH. In a game like magic that is balanced by limited resources, if you can have 5 or 6 mana on turn 2-3, you'll win a vast majority of those games. There's no mystery why every powerful deck is filled with these 0-2 CMC rocks (minus Animar). In our deck, more mana = more cards with Nin, and a greater likelihood of doing something insane with Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter or Paradox Engine the moment they hit the field.
Lotus Petal: Yeah, still good enough. See Chrome Mox.
Mana Crypt: Busted. See Chrome Mox.
Mox Amber: It's a mox, albeit the weakest of the bunch.
Mox Diamond: It's a mox.
Mox Opal: it's a mox.
Grafdigger's Cage: Stops Reanimation, Hulk combos, Yisan, and Chord effects. Hardly affects me at all.
Mana Vault: Busted. See Chrome Mox.
Sensei's Divining Top: Provides a little bit of extra digging when you need it. You can stack draw triggers when you have a Paradox Engine loop to draw through your deck.
Sol Ring: Busted. See Chrome Mox.
Fellwar Stone: 2 mana, comes into play untapped, makes colored mana. "Rock" solid.
Arcane Signet: Great new rock! Even better than Fellwar.
Grim Monolith: Busted. See Chrome Mox. One of the pieces for Plan B infinite mana combo.
Isochron Scepter: One of the pieces for Plan A/D infinite mana combo. Don't be afraid to imprint something other than Dramatic Reversal if you can't find the combo after a while. Mana Drain / Impulse / High Tide / Whatever every turn is still pretty sick.
Izzet Signet: 2 mana, comes into play untapped, makes colored mana.
Mind Stone: Weakest among the rocks here, but cycles when I'd rather have something else. Still good enough.
Talisman of Creativity: 2 mana, comes into play untapped, fixes mana when you need colored.
Scroll Rack: One of the best ways to dig through your deck, especially after scooping up a bunch of cards after using Nin to refill your hand or a Wheel of Fortune effect.
Staff of Domination: an infinite mana outlet, and a piece to achieve infinite mana in Plan C. Usually we use this to draw our deck.
Vedalken Shackles: A little expensive mana-wise, but much stronger than it looks. Most creatures in a competitive environment are small, so I usually only need a few islands to threaten to steal anything. Makes strategies that rely on a commander very difficult (Yisan, Brago, etc.). Sometimes just steals mana dorks, which I'm fine with since I can hit it with Nin and steal another one the next turn.
Mystic Remora: A cEDH staple that has still gone under the radar in a lot of casual circles. Will either force everyone to play slower for a few turns or draw you like 8 cards.
Power Artifact: The other piece of the Plan B infinite mana combo. Usually find this guy via Muddle the Mixture.
Blood Moon: I live off the tears of greedy 4-color manabases. Straight up locks some decks out of colored mana, and doesn't affect me at all. Stops other stuff that's tough to interact with (Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, etc.).
Back to Basics: Another excellent payoff for being primarily blue with a light red splash. Decimates greedy manabases of 3+ color decks. Unlike Blood Moon, you can play this when opponents are tapped out to completely lock them off of mana (instead of giving them a bunch of mountains).
Dack Fayden: Consistently awesome and one of the biggest payoffs for going UR. There is always a good mana rock to steal.
Narset, Parter of Veils: One of the more recent heavy-hitters in cEDH, Narset is an excellent stax and card advantage piece all in one. Notably, you can Nin opponents' creatures with Narset out, and they'll only draw 1 card (0 if you're doing it on their turn). Also pairs especially well with Wheel effects, since you'll strip opponents of their hands.
Tezzeret the Seeker: Expensive, but excellent. Think of it like a copy of Transmute Artifact, but if you're lucky you can use it twice.
Inventors' Fair: It's a tutor!
Timetwister / Mishra's Workshop / Volcanic Island: The benefit just isn't worth it in real world dollars. I'm not doing any infinite Timetwister loops, so it's just an insanely expensive wheel effect. Mishra's Workshop is not even good, and while including Volcanic Island would be nice, the benefit is marginal for how much it costs.
Past Inclusions + Currently Testing:
Paradox Engine: Goodnight, sweet prince. It was nice while it lasted. RIP
Kuldotha Forgemaster: Too expensive / clunky.
Consecrated Sphinx: Casual all-star, but 6 mana to maybe draw some cards is too much to ask.
Magus of the Moon: Great when Karador, Animar, Kess, and T&T are at the store, but lately there's been a lot of Edric, Yisan, Yannifar, and Teferi (who don't care about this effect).
Great Furnace: Used this to make sure Mox Opal would be active more often, but I've found it's more important to just have Islands (Vedalken Shackles, Blood Moon effects, etc.)
Annul: The blue 1-mana disenchant. The cards I'm most terrified of are Stony Silence, Null Rod, and Cursed Totem - all of which are hit by Annul. Also, there are plenty of scary targets besides the one I mentioned. There are other 1 mana answers that are more useful though.
Thought Vessel: Got cut as the weakest of the 2cmc rocks as more hatepieces made their way into the deck (Grafdiggers, Blood Moon, Stranglehold, etc.)
Voltaic Key: If we're treating this as a mana rock, it doesn't net mana often enough to be worth it. (Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt are the only good targets)
Torpor Orb: Karador has mostly left the local meta, so I feel better about taking this one out. The only deck this really messes with nowadays is Animar and Brago, but I have some tech for him already.
Stranglehold: Gets better the more competitive your group is. Brutal when powered out early, since it also turns off fetchlands. Love playing this against Yisan and Sisay players in my group.
Gamble: This card was in the list for years, and it was only recently that I took it out. I understand why it's popular (it's a 1 mana tutor in red!), but in my years of experience I've found it to be overrated. You usually use tutors to find the second piece of your two card combos (Iso/Scepter or Grim/Power). By that time, there usually isn't much else left in your hand, so discarding one of your combo pieces is likely. So, perhaps you use this to just tutor for fast mana or silver bullet stax pieces? But you can't do it when you have any combo piece in hand, since you're SOL if you discard it. Sometimes you're just unlucky. Generally, I only use this card when I've drawn a lot of cards with Nin and the probability of discarding something critical is low. So, most of the time Gamble is a win-more card. I'm testing taking this card out, but who knows. Most cEDH lists use it, maybe I've been using it wrong.
Spell Snare: Just like Mental Misstep, most people in cEDH play cheap spells. This slot was at first reserved for protection against the scariest stax pieces (Stony Silence, Null Rod, Cursed Totem), but I realized that Spell Snare is more useful than most counters not just against these hate cards, but tons of others. Hits Survival of the Fittest, Kataki, tons of hatebears, Isochron Scepter, several counterspells, Grim Monolith, Flash, Thrasios, etc. Currently replaced with Into the Roil since it's more versatile.
Dispel: Turns out cEDH has a lot of good instants to counter. Most non-elfball decks run at least 20-25. Handy for protecting Nin when attempting to shoot herself to refill my hand, or countering disruption during combo turns.
IN GENERAL: the 1-mana "narrow" counter/removal slot(s).... I'm constantly flip-flopping between Spell Pierce, Pyroblast, Annul, and Spell Snare. Judging from other cEDH lists, Spell Pierce is the most popular, followed by Pyroblast...but I'm not too fond on any of these cards.
Thanks for checking out the guide! If you have any questions/suggestions about the deck, feel free to comment below.
(Sidenote: My playgroup allows PEngine, which I've replaced narset's reversal with.)
5 months ago
jeacaveo To specifically answer you, I play weekly in a very competitive meta at my LGS in paper. I play against Consultation Hulk Najeela, Gitfrog, TnT Flash Hulk (now Fish Hulk), Brago Stax, Yisan, Doomsday Breya, and all kinds of other stuff. I am aware of the format, and the meta. I have played Azami and Naru Meha and Baral as mono blue decks, no I don't have lists for them on tappedout. Either way, I don't really care if you gatekeep me from "competitive" as long as you respond to my critiques or link cards. Which you didn't. So much along chump, your comment was worthless too.
AlwaysSleepy This list hasn't been updated for 5 months. You can speak about how the meta has changed with the coming of Oracle and how this deck brilliantly handles it, but that doesn't really mean anything to this list because it hasn't been updated. If it handles Oracle, it is by no intentional omission or addition from the brewers. I know you guys absolutely love to claim these brewers are 10/10 never before seen genius brewers, but ayyy lmao I'm going to need you guys to reel it in. This is what I mean when I talk about idol worship and people being mindless. This list is 5 months old. It wasn't good then. It still isn't good now. Defending this to your last breath is a weird hill to die on mate.
Basalt + Rings being considered unplayable is certainly understandable. Its in across two cards with another to start the combo for total. Grim + Power artifact is a half that at . Neither of the combos have an outlet themselves, and both of them produce colorless mana. I'm not arguing that the rings combo is more efficient, it definitely isn't. I'm arguing that Power Artifact is a 100% dead draw outside the combo and Rings gives better value outside the combo. I've playtested this deck. Numerous times. It runs out of gas frequently and struggles assembling and executing the combo. Rings + Basalt is easier to find, easier to recur, and Rings has much more incidental value and can form loops for winning with other cards already slotted, like Codex Shredder. PA is only getting tutored off two cards, Intuition and Muddle the Mixture. Rings is getting tutored off MANY more cards. Even if the speed is slower, the availability and utility is much higher. From the availability perspective, I think it is a much more valuable include. This deck struggles to assemble a win in a timely manner, so make the pieces more fetchable. Even if you disagree with Basalt + Rings, Grim + PA is definitely a weak combo in that PA is absolutely useless without Grim, and you get 2-for-1'd by artifact removal in response to casting PA. Some of the mana cost is negated with Urza too, but more importantly, you're more likely to have excess mana from other artifacts (if you run more than 17 ahahahaha) which helps to power the combo and sustain uses for value. Yes the value from Rings costs a lot, but wow! Urza makes mana! Maybe, if we combine the mana from other artifacts we're already playing, and then use that to pay for Rings activations, we can get ahead!
My biggest reason for including Rings + Basalt was because this deck is just slow as fuck. I understand it can't race against decks with Black, but honestly this $4000 durdle pile can't race at all. Having your game plan be "Untap, upkeep, draw, and that will be a pass from me" is unbelievably stupid. Compare to a deck like Rashmi or Baral, which can actually accrue value from this style of play. When given space, all this deck does is. . . uh . . . hold up mana for counterspells.
Honestly the biggest problem with Workshop is a bad topdeck late game. P.S. this card also makes more sense with more artifacts. I'm not advocating for adding it in this list without adding other cards.
Howling Mine - Lets look. If Urza is in it draws you a card. If Urza is out it draws you a card. Seems like it still works without Urza.
Speaking about the failure mode though, Static Orb may wreck your game worse than 3 draw triggers. If you have Urza get removed while trying to protect, you're most likely tapped out. Not having the mana to interact with the Flash is going to be worse than giving the Flash player 1 more card. Similarly, other opponents are going to have mana difficulties with either of the Orbs to interact with the Flash Hulk player too. This is pretty well known, and the card is still ran. If you think that a colorless Dark Confidant + Mox Sapphire stapled to it with the failure of symmetry instead of asymmetry isn't worth running, we have nothing more to discuss on the matter.
I agree that Narset's Reversal is an over slotted card and should be used mostly in mono color. I think its popularity is because it serves as a Copy Artifact outlet with Dramatic Reversal, as it does here.
About Urza and spinning the wheel, its reusable card draw + play the spell. It doesn't replace your regular card draw, and yes having high counterspell density does cause more bricks from activations. The rest of your argument for this section talks about the "meta and how you can't be agnostic of it". Yeah dude, once again, this deck hasn't been updated in 5 months. Tell that to the brewers.
BUT PITHING NEEDLE DOESNT SEE PLAY SHAPER TOLD ME SO
Yeah dude, of the 400 cards you see in a pod, you only have control over 100. If your maximum power deck only works against maximum power decks, is it really a maximum power deck? Sure, in theory you shouldn't account for Needle, but
- This game being played in paper with real costs to cards means that the vast majority of players do not have 100% access to the cards they should slot, which means they put another card in that slot
- The vast majority of players are not aware of the competitive meta or lists. Those who are enfranchised with knowledge and access most likely are aware of how Needle performs in other formats and consider it here as well.
- A savvy player who loses to a deck that can be shut off by a single card may slot that card when they expect to see the deck again. The meta evolves as players realize how vulnerable this deck is to a 1 cmc card that literally any deck can slot
- Needle variants see play, and players without large card pools may slot more of the same effect. Players may also slot the needle in place of Totem or Linvala, especially if they are Modern players who already have the Needle but not a Totem.
Imagine someone running Kiki combo being shut off by someone's random Ghostly Prison. Sure, that card shouldn't be run in optimized lists, but not being able to handle permanents on the board speaks to bad building. How this deck fares against Needle effects is the same.
As far as blind followers and me shitting on 'em, look at the replies to my posts mate. We have
- Tepid regurgitation post from a fan restating the primer
- 0 decks 1 post guy calling me a fucktard but saying I might be onto something
- You, saying this deck is golden against Fish when it hasn't been updated since 5 months before Fish hit the scene
- Dominican bro saying I've obviously never played competitive because ??? No reason given
- Still no one can explain why this deck has a 90% match to CVT or why it runs only 5 pieces of removal
Lazy, phoned-in deck from 4 brewers who just couldn't be bothered. If this opinion makes you mad, or makes you need to @ me, its because you're basing it off the merit of the names associated with it instead of the cards listed inside it. You can justify it as handling Fish meta, but the list hasn't been updated. Y'all really drink the Kool-Aid, and you drink it all.
5 months ago
I'm not sure how my comment may be construed to be idol worship lol. I'm providing an additional context.
So, for some of the card choices touched on, I think we have differing evaluations and overall opinions on cards. I'll just share for the record my quick evals for context:
I think Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth is just unplayable. I think both cards alone are not strong enough for play. I don't think Urza fixes them either. I get your point, Urza makes mana, and there's synergy. It shouldn't justify weak card choices. Urza in this case shaves off a small 1 mana from the investment for this pricy combo. From a cEDH perspective, regardless of Urza's improvement, it's unacceptable. Rings as value is undoubtedly too slow for the current meta.
I find Mishra's Workshop weakly tenable at best in EDH. You have to skew too much to make it a reasonable land, versus a ritual effect. By the time Workshop is consistently a land, I find, the deck has been weakened more than otherwise picking stronger cards.
The difference between Howling Mine and Winter Orb and crew (3ball included) is that the latter actually help you if untapped should Urza be gone. Mine will actively hurt you. Yes you can always try and time Urza to make it safer. Though realistically, people understand Urza is a major threat, and mini-combos with failure modes are not an acceptable power level for cEDH currently. I hold all cards to this metric. Narset's Reversal is another example I generally avoid playing unless specifically forced (like, in mono U). With Oracle Hulk being the prime metagame singularity, cards with failure modes in decks being taxed to interact is incorrect.
If you feel safe cutting some countermagic for artifacts, it's understandable as a deck building decision. Again though, I ask the question of really how much are you rushing Urza and just spinning the wheel that the issue with interaction density being higher somehow detracts overall. I don't think Urza can be built agnostic of the current meta. If you think it can be done leaner, sure, go ahead. But that's starting from behind as Urza doesn't win the race war. I'm not convinced this strategy is completely sound.
Look man, the issue isn't card choices, or who made the list, or what an opinion on cards is. It's that the changes in deck building decisions somehow led to this discussion on people being stupid sheep without any capacity to think. If someone disagrees with you, that shouldn't disqualify them as blind followers. If it does, the discourse isn't in good faith.
Theory arguments should stand alone and don't have to be backed by anything else.
5 months ago
AlwaysSleepy If you can't understand why I would point out when a 0 decks 1 post account logs in after two years to call me a fucktard, then there isn't much more to discuss on that point.
As far as whether or not you suck, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I enjoy it when people with less or more experience post, as long as its discussing cards or linking new ones.
As far as building Urza midrange versus artifact focused, yes I understand why the choices are made. This just keeps coming back to some basic facts though. The commander makes mana from artifacts, and then uses lots of mana to get free spells. Running 12 counterspells is going to mess with Urza activations. In a vacuum, a counterspell is going to be better than a trinisphere, but do you know what card the deck always has access to, every single game, from turn 1? Urza! What does Urza do? Give mana from artifacts, and use mana to get free spells. Do you know what free spells are unfortunate to get from Urza activations? Counterspells!
To respond to your card comments
Legacy's Allure - I'm glad we are in agreement that this card should go.
Homeward Path - This card is very common as tech in Selvala and Yisan decks. Gilded Drake is a very popular card that can go into most competitive decks with blue as a piece of removal. Both Yisan and Selvala are extremely commander dependent while being mono colored, with the Crop Rotation already there in many builds. Just because the card is not run in the Shaper list does not mean the card does not see play, it is tech that shows up. Since the card makes those decks cry big fat tears when it is resolved, it goes in. Which brings us to
Pithing Needle and friends. There are enough of these effects and they are so rancid for this deck that you must be aware of them when you build. It is simply asinine to ignore how dire this card resolving is for this deck. The bigger problem with these types of cards is that this deck runs so little removal and places all emphasis on counterspells. As far as Needle appearing or not, just because it doesn't show up in a big name brewer list doesn't mean the card isn't played. I have seen many competitive commander decks slot this card. It is a strong hate card against many commanders, the card that everyone always has access to (if they run Homeward Path lol). This list crumples to turn 1 Pithing Needle and it serves as proof of what the card can do. 1 mana and 1 card to lock out a player from winning is significantly better than a counterspell. The card is mana denial against uncracked fetches (they can't crack in response to the naming), it hoses entire commanders, its great against the random planeswalkers that show up, its amazing against the random Animatou deck that showed up, it shuts off so many infinite combos and is such a strong answer that can go in any deck. P.S. it could even go into an Urza build
Aether Spellbomb - My thoughts exactly. Goes in for Allure
Recurring Insight - I can believe that anyone who has resolved it has won. There are caveats to that statement though. You're giving up big opportunity cost as you could have another card in that slot doing something else before 6 mana. It is also hard to protect it resolving, because it costs 6 mana. Let me use an analogy to make one last point. Just because I won by tutoring from Diabolic Tutor does not mean that Demonic Tutor is the same. You can run sub-optimal cards that lead to winning, that category would most likely encompass 99+% of decks made.
Mishra's Workshop - This card once again used to show flaws in deckbuilding. The commander focuses on artifacts. This deck doesn't have an artifact density high enough to run Workshop and put it to use. It runs 19 artifacts. This card and the commander make big mana for or from artifacts. After the lands, there are 68 slots. 19 are artifacts. This is another overall design flaw rather than weakness between the card and the commander.
Howling Mine - I agree that this card has risk associated with playing it. This is why timing is crucial. If played when Urza is on the board, you are able to advance meaningfully with an extra and card every turn for and 1 card. Howling Mine isn't great in a vacuum, but once again it goes really well with that one card we always have access to. Even if later Urza is removed, we got advantage from it first and we got it earlier. Giving all your opponents 1 extra card (so 3 total) on turn 5 is negated by getting an extra card for yourself on turn 3 and 4. Getting access to the cards earlier for us is worthwhile even if on a later turn our opponents are collectively getting 3 cards to our 3 cards. Timing is just required to make this card effective. I find it hilarious that this list realizes the benefit in running Winter Orb and Static Orb but glances over the same synergy with Howling Mine. Do you see how those cards also hurt you without your commander?
Trinisphere - Its totally not cut, just not in the list. The authors can put flowery words next to it but this card should be an auto include. Not having it here makes me question why.
Ensnaring Bridge - Not the best possible include but worth a consider if the deck is more artifact centric. Can hose down Tymna and also some win cons. Urza plays well with a small hand and a fatty board.
As far as "You're just going to get flashed on" I'm not advocating for eliminating counterspells completely. It could easily go down to 8 and you will still see counters in your opener. The forgiving mulligan rules of multiplayer with the added new London Mulligan makes it easy to go back for one if you see yourself sitting across from TnT.
Expedition Map - Leads to Tabernacle and leads to Inventor's Fair. You can use to go to Academy Ruins to plop back on top to continue to toolbox lands. Its a tutor in a relevant type that can become an engine in games where you have more space. In more artifact centric builds you can extend more into non-basic lands as fetch targets, because you will need less blue for counterspells and 6 mana draw spells and Legacy's Allure.
Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth is a usable combo in certain contexts. Gonna keep going back to this idea that we always have Urza in the command zone as being important to the development of the deck. Urza gives us A LOT OF MANA. Rings has a great effect, but needs A LOT OF MANA. See where I'm going here? When we get Rings activations onto fetches, we are double thinning and ramping ourselves, but we're also priming the deck for BETTER URZA ACTIVATIONS. You also get infinite mana loops with Codex Shredder and any card that goes to GY like a spell. Basalt is definitely a downgrade from Grim, but Rings is such an upgrade from Power Artifact for usefulness outside combo and mana isn't as much of an issue in Urza so I think its worthwhile.
As far as the rest of what you wrote, yeah nice dude this is a $4000 durdle list and you are out here defending it. These brewers are so isolated in their own meta they make absurd card choices and overall deckbuilding decisions. Yeah this list is trash dude, and my comments about people being sheep are funnier with every reply. Why are you out here schilling for this list? Idol worship or idle time?
5 months ago
alright well sure why not ill take a stab but i suck at magic and also didnt make this list so if that discounts me you can stop reading now, though since it appears to matter, yes this is my main account
General comment about the state of the format, and how it's changed a lot since Oracle. Urza isn't a considerably quick deck, the nature of mono blue limits its options speedwise, and while the card quality blue has is on average, very high, mono blue normally is not as consistently fast as decks with black - though with certain draws it can be.
This puts Urza in a weird spot deck building wise. Urza wants to play to the board and develop its mana and board state. But Urza is ultimately a value card overall, which is even reflected outside of EDH as most Urza decks across formats are some mixture of midrange with a combo finish. Does not mean EDH must do the same but such a strategy has legs.
Okay so now EDH context. Urza isn't the fastest deck at the table. Especially with Oracle Hulk being the strongest deck now - this puts stress on Urza to hold up interaction consistently as opposed to develop mana for a few turns and attempt to combo.
Some of the artifacts can do both, some cannot. My point is that just vomiting artifacts and goldfishing a few turns doesn't work in EDH unless you are the Flash deck. Urza has to accommodate that. Thus, a midrage plan is explored.
Okay specific cards:
Legacy's Allure - I've not been big on it. Also it looks weaker now cause like, it's not as playable any more. It was Hulk tech cause it worked vs. older Hulk piles. It's not effective any more into Hulk, and is a very reasonable cut.
Homeward Path effects - I'll be honest I've never seen this played in a cEDH deck. The effect is so narrow for a poor manabase addition. It's severe deckbuilding cost to run this single card for what is, 1 or 2 effects max across a format. Anyone running this for just Drake is probably focusing on too small a margin.
Pithing Needle effects - Similar, I don't think it's necessary to skew a deck so harshly for a single card. Needle is rare, Revoker is more common. Totem would be the real issue to worry about. It's completely fine to tech more against it if you see it. But teching or skewing for specific effects not commonly played isn't a good idea.
Aether Spellbomb - Sure, I like it too. I see it in place of Allure with Oracle Hulk.
Recurring Insight - I don't think anyone who resolved this card has lost. It's a win-con itself. If you want to write this argument off, I don't think I can say much more.
Mishra's Workshop - Most EDH decks don't run enough artifacts for this. By the time you are your card quality is lower than it could be. I cannot say I've seen any EDH deck run an adequate density for this to not be a random ritual and then it's done. You need to skew heavily into artifact permanents, but then, see the original Urza gameplan argument.
Howling Mine - This card is actually dangerous if Urza is removed. Not a fan.
Trinisphere - It's amazing. In fact, it's so good, the authors literally said it's really good and you can run it. It's not cut.
Ensnaring Bridge - Mono blue is not a terribly inspiring Bridge deck considering there are so many good blue cards to run. But yes, it's playable in Urza.
Spinning Urza is strong, but arguing that counterspells make it miss and that card draw isn't good with it isn't understanding where Urza stands as a deck in the format. You probably aren't going to be able to sit and spin the wheel much in the current EDH climate. Or at least, not without getting Flashed on.
Expedition Map - It's fine. Not winning awards for speed, but it's an extra copy of a land.
Basalt + Rings has not been playable in cEDH for a very long time, and Urza doesn't change that. There is not an excuse to play poor quality cards for a moderate upside.
Urza isn't an artifact goldfish deck in EDH - or at least in the max power environment, it just can't afford to be any more. That's what many of these card choices have as context. If you have some different opinions sure. Doesn't make the entire list trash.
I find your aggressive comments on calling everyone stupid followers comical lmao. Like, come on that rhetoric is unnecessary. If you want to make a point, it should stand on its own by its actual soundness. Don't need to shit on literally everyone and then tell people to suck it up and put on "big boy pants" and give you a pass to engage in needlessly aggressive discourse.
but whatever i suck at mtg. its my real account tho, i used it like 2 days ago