|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2019 (C19)||Rare|
|Commander 2016 (C16)||Rare|
|Commander 2013 (C13)||Rare|
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Tempt with Discovery
Tempting offer — Search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Each opponent may search his or her library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. For each opponent who searches a library this way, search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched a library this way shuffles it.
Tempt with Discovery Discussion
2 weeks ago
enpc Your response makes me believe you didn't actually read the OP through. Further suggested by how you said earlier that I forgot to talk about White's ability to resource denial while I clearly had a shorter paragraph mentioning Armageddon , Ravages of War and Limited Resources and how I didn't believe that archetype was a very progressive way to forward white's multiplayer playability in Commander, even though it is one of white's more powerful archetypes but it has some nasty side effects on the political spectrum.
My main problem with white having to almost exclusively go to artifacts for fixing their problems on ramp and card draw is exactly because artifacts are plentiful in Commander and therefore many run artifact removal. It is quite tough as a white player that spent a lot of mana on dishing out mana ramp and/or card draw artifacts, just to have an opponent cast Bane of Progress or Vandalblast or be the target of an incidental Casualties of War or Aura Shards , and there's limited options for white to counter that, bar the expensive catch-all . Why green has better and more flexible counters that actually fits white more is a bit strange to me and I wish white had at least a comparable answer that didn't cost 40$.
In a way I wouldn't mind if white also got some artifact restoration as they did in the older days . Blue and red has some good artifact pulls but white did have that same affinity back in the day, so it is definitely part of their color pie . White just has a huge problem again with the symmetrical effects being a disadvantage in multiplayer unless they can fuel the graveyard - which they cannot by themselves.
One solution could be a Tempting Offer card that pulls back artifacts.
Tempting Offer Show
White's tempting artifact recovery
Tempting Offer - Return an artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield. Each opponent may an artifact card from their graveyard to the battlefield. For each opponent who does, you may return an artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Most opponents would likely take the offer to return their strongest artifact to their board, and in exchange white gets to mass-return their wrecked artifacts at a discount. Unlike say Tempt with Discovery which in general should never be accepted.
One of the mana ramp suggestions (in the OP) was indeed to return low CMC permanents, which could hit ramp artifacts as well - so pulling double duty and well within white's color pie. Getting extra lands this way is more resilient versus playing mana artifacts but requires extra steps compared to mana artifacts and will never be a true replacement but merely a supplement. And it's not the first time white restores lands .
I think it would be better if white players could included these types of permanent restoration cards into their decks and it was viable, rather than having to put Manalith into their deck.
Again these suggestions are unlikely to replace mana artifacts or become auto-includes, but they could provide good supplementary support. I advocate choice, but if improvements could be made to a color specific solution to a color that falls behind in the format, then I see no issue.
And none of the suggested cards are something I would imagine would swim rather than sink in eternal formats, but it's possible there's something I overlook.
It's also meant as a general take on a possible solution, and not necessarily the only thing needed to improve white's ability to compete in casual EDH. For instance if the land restoration cards I suggested was a way to go, then more cards that facilitate that line of play could be made. More functional reprints of Evolving Wilds , a variant on Flagstones of Trokair or basically anything that helps that line of play and doesn't need to be *the* fetchlands . Prismatic Vista was a very good alternative to the fetchlands, that sadly has taken a very similar price trend. Although I think that may have more to do with the price of the Modern Horizons set compared to what value was in there, than the actual card - a cash-back so to speak. Now I just hope for future functional reprints - even while owning 2 Prismatic Vista s.
White lands that end up in the graveyard Show
Variant on Flagstones of Trokair
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
, Sacrifice ~: Search your library for a basic Plains card and put it onto the battlefield, you gain 2 life.
Something with a line of play that lets you put lands into the graveyard but not fall behind on lands in play.
, : Look at the top 6 cards of your library, you may put any number of land cards from among them into your graveyard, then put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in a random order. You may shuffle your library.
Outside the colors of Jund's lands matters deck. Outside of most landfall decks. Will likely cause Crucible of Worlds to increase in price, but is an example of something white could do that isn't specifically self-mill, isn't draw discard and isn't land- Buried Alive .
White have previously had a somewhat similar effect in Endless Horizons , one that is somewhat similar to Land Tax . Where Endless Horizons essentially provides deck thinning and pseudo card-advantage, it also presents a rather significant risk if blown up, especially if you play greedy - don't do it. This suggested land or whatever it will end up being, it doesn't need to be a land... it can thin your deck and throw lands in the graveyard, and provide a library shuffle if needed.
What I mean to say with the above, is that the suggestions in the OP and here is more about a direction of solutions to this perceived issue with white in casual Commander, more than it is "this card will single-handedly turn white into just as great a color as green for Commander". Therefore reflecting on these cards' viability in context to only existing cards would be against the point I try to make.
Think of red for a moment. For almost two decades, red didn't have actual card advantage. They had Browbeat as a punisher mechanic, they had Wheel of Fortune in the very early days but those are more exceptions than the rule. Then red got their temporary draw or draws with downside with an underlying theme "it's here in the now, use it or waste it". Card draw is so basic and essential to the game, that each color has come up with ways to achieve it. I think white needs to find a similar solution for multiplayer formats.
And finally, to quote you; "But if your argument is that they're not as good (the manarocks) and so you don't want to play them, then tough, welcome to how balancing works. And if that's not fair in your mind then you have some really bad double standards."
Does balancing need to include price tags? Joke aside.
But how come a large portion of the Commander community has expressed that white and to a lesser extend red are the least powerful colors in Commander, especially white when considering mono color? Red is getting support lately and is improving, but white falls behind.
Do you claim you know balance better than all those people?
2 weeks ago
My two cents.
My version of this deck also includes the flash enablers like Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery so I can keep up counter mana or recur spells with Tasigur's ability. I also have Primal Amulet Flip to double up on important X spells.
1 month ago
Hey amazing deck. Upvote. Is there any reason you don't run certain cards, do they not synergize with it or did you run them and take them out. Tempt with Discovery , Expropriate , Life from the Loam , World Shaper , Scapeshift . I would think they would accelerate faster deck or outright win?
1 month ago
Thanks for the input Bighimmy!
So I've gone through the list and my understanding is that you mean proactive interaction/removal. So from the deck list thus far there is:
- Assassin's Trophy
- Beast Within
- Windgrace's Judgement
- Pernicious Deed
- World Shaper
- Acidic Slime
For boardwipes there are:
Now for some of the other options I've gone through in the past I personally don't feel like a few of them are really worth it, and feel free to discuss these since there's always going to be something that I'm missing or haven't really thought about. My thoughts on:
- Chaos Warp : This is an attractive option, it deals with anything and you can even use it on your own permanents to try and spin into something more useful. It means that certain threats don't go to the graveyard (for reanimation or death triggers) and can get lost in the deck. However, from past experience I'm much more a fan of Assassin's Trophy as you can then Bojuka Bog to exile the threat along with the rest of the graveyard. This is a less risky option, and I completely understand why people go to it but I know I'll be kicking myself once a Chaos Warp turns a threat into a bigger threat.
- Gaze of Granite : Pernicious Deed just does everything that Gaze of Granite does that much better with the only exception being planeswalkers. You don't have to sink all your mana into the casting (so if it gets countered it's not a complete loss) and furthermore you can use Pernicious Deed at instant speed, which is a massive way to interact with non-creature permanent-based strategies (such as enchantments and artifacts).
- Go for the Throat / Doom Blade / Dismember / Abrupt Decay : I'm not a massive fan of conditional removal in commander because my rule of thumb is that the broadest answer is the best answer the vast majority of cases.
- Putrefy : for the longest time I played this in the deck before Ravnica Allegiances rolled around and Bedevil took its place. The ability to interact with planeswalkers is fantastic, but the key thing I think is that the inability to regenerate clause from Putrefy isn't of massive concern for this deck for a couple of reasons. Firstly regeneration isn't particularly common, and when it is you're dealing with Asceticism in which case you're not Putrefying anything. Otherwise you have access to Damnation which doesn't allow regeneration and Toxic Deluge which also doesn't allow regeneration.
- Force of Vigor : I started playing this in my Ayula, Queen Among Bears commander deck and in mono green it is the best answer to a lot of early game and late game threats. Current this deck has 42 green cards so there's no shortage of fodder to play this for free on your opponent's turn, but I'm unsure as to what this supercedes in the deck currently.
- Casualties of War : as a budget option this is fine but the sorcery speed makes this lacklustre.
- Noxious Revival : This was on the radar for a while when I was concerned about getting Glacial Chasm destroyed and then getting exiled, however there is not really a reliable way to recur this effect, and it is not particularly powerful (though has some utility due to being able to play it at instant speed for nothing). My other concern was that it requires an additional step to get it into hand, so if you draw it for turn, you would need a way to draw an additional card to then get whatever you need from the graveyard to your hand. As a redundant effect for Eternal Witness I understand, however I think it is too much of a corner case and I would be more of a fan of Regrowth -like as you will have access massive amounts of excess mana from Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers . I imagine something like this will come along some time in the near future, it's only a matter of time.
- Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast / Guttural Response : I find that this angle of interaction is far too narrow to really be applicable unless you know there is a very high chance of versing counterspells in your local meta. This is why I find that Boseiju, Who Shelters All is a better solution to this problem, primarily because it can be searched off abilities and deals with the majority of effects while being difficult to interact with itself. Now the way your opponents can get around this is effects like Venser, Shaper Savant , Narset's Reversal or any other Unsubstantiate -type abilities. I learned to simply accept this as a weakness of the deck given the colours. The archetype is rather weak to its inability to interact with the stack, but I think there are more unconventional ways around this, such as Contamination to punish their mana base or by waiting until your counter-laden opponents are tapped out from trying to deal with each other. I think that this is a fair trade off for this deck being difficult to interact with.
The main weakness of this deck I believe is its inability to deal with mill and combo effectively, vulnerability to bounce effects on the stack like Venser, Shaper Savant and counterspells. I've found that these weaknesses can be reduced with a couple of strategies:
- Playing some political cards Pir's Whim + Tempt with Discovery + Rites of Flourishing to try and ameliorate the board (and not draw the ire of anyone who might have a counter available),
- Building up a solid land base from both a deckbuilding and play perspective to support a late-game comeback due to the lack of cards that effectively interact with land-base strategies, and
- The ability to play around counterspells and interaction, such as Boseiju, Who Shelters All and reliance on using abilities rather than just spells.
So after a little more testing, Elvish Reclaimer is an absolute house in being able to effectively Crop Rotation each turn to more reliable tutor out either ramping or utility land. The summoning sickness issue means that again this does not pull this deck back from the brink in the late game, but as an early game drop it provides access to both stocking the graveyard for Lord Windgrace and fixing mana for the later game. I regret my initial skepticism on this addition and think it is a great upgrade for the deck.
I am planning on adding in Korvold, Fae-Cursed King shortly because I think another Gitrog Monster will be welcome here. I think I'll finally have to pull the trigger on cutting Zuran Orb , it's been there since the start...
2 months ago
Easy switch outs to me:
Acidic Slime - you have plenty of destroy enchantment or artifact things.
Verdant Force - meh with what you're doing
Turntimber Sower - also kinda meh
Baloth Woodcrasher - no trample, would be chumped all day long
Seer's Sundial - you should be ramping enough that this is irrelevant to you - green and black are excellent ramping colors save this for the red or colorless deck you're going to build in commander.
Second Harvest - too situational
Deathreap Ritual - seems very situational
Zendikar Incarnate - can grow fast, no trample or other evasion
Scute Mob - dangerously fast growing - no trample or other evasion
Crop Rotation - search for a land card, put on battlefield
Sylvan Scrying - search for a land card, put in hand
Reap and Sow - destroy target land and or search for a land
Tempt with Discovery - search for a land and for as many lands as opponents search for
2 months ago
Alright, the jig is up on Tempt with Discovery . People are getting wise to the shenanigans. Since it has just become a 4 CMC Sylvan Scrying in my recent games, I decided to bite the bullet and replace it with Sylvan Scrying and save the mana.
2 months ago
Further suggestions, on the backs of the two creatures I suggested to you I would cut Garruk's Horde and Ruric Thar, the Unbowed both are high CMC and I think you have other creatures you would rather play for those costs and get more bang for your buck.
On the side of Ramping out, let's talk a couple of options. Grand Warlord Radha could serve you well as you're going to want to be swinging a lot with several creatures. Radha would allow you to generate more mana for doing so and allow you to summon in back up during Main Phase 2 to shore up your defenses.
A Chromatic Lantern might seem decadent or too much for a dual colored deck but let's think of it this way, it's a three cmc mana rock that taps for any color AND color fixes all of your lands the moment it hits the field, that's almost always a good deal.
Talisman of Impulse and Farseek are both great options at only 2 CMC a piece which means we are potentially ramping on Turn 1 AND 2 which is huge. On a related note I would cut Tempt with Discovery as not only is it 4 CMC but in my experience, good players will always choose to let it whiff. OR even worse they will go fetch Ghost Quarter or Strip Mine and blow up anything cool you happen to go get for yourself.
Finally on the high CMC side for Ramp there is Caged Sun and Zendikar Resurgent The Sun is normally limited to mono colored decks but you are currently leaning so heavily into green I don't think you'd ever mind extra green mana at your disposal. Resurgent nets you all important card draw as Gruul has a bad habit of going Hellbent in a hurry.
3 months ago
Any of the enchantments that give haste might help. Then Collective Voyage and New Frontiers instead of Tempt with Discovery (do people really add mana to this when they see your deck?) and another single land sorcery.
Tempt with Discovery occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.04%