|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Shadows over Innistrad (SOI)||Mythic Rare|
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Nahiri, the Harbinger
Planeswalker — Nahiri
+2: You may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
-2: Exile target enchantment, tapped artifact, or tapped creature.
-8: Search your library for an artifact or creature card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. It gains haste. Return it to your hand at the beginning of the next end step.
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Nahiri, the Harbinger Discussion
1 week ago
Ocelot44 thanks a ton for the suggestions!
I really should be running a way to deal with an opponents' lands. However needing to blow up my own land to do so seems really painful. So I need to find a different solution.
Nahiri, the Harbinger, Wear / Tear, Legion's Initiative and Ingot Chewer have all been in the deck at one point or another. The two former I could see returning at any point but personally I never had great luck with Legion's Initiative. I found that leaving 2 mana open each turn hurt, and if your opponents are smart it's not too hard to play around, plus, in a game where everyone is wiping the board 5-6 times a game, it really just is like trying to fix a dam with bubblegum and tape. Boros Charm makes the cut because its tricky, tutorable, and can be recurred with Mistveil Plains. And I find Ingot Chewer is too cute even for Kelemne. (lol)
An overarching instinct I had making this deck is I really cant afford narrow 1:1 answers for things unless the literally win me the game Comeuppance, Wild Ricochet, or are extremely efficient and/or can be tutored off Sunforger like Return to Dust.
I see the cards you've suggested, and they're good, but some of them I can't see running, and it makes me wonder what I'm thinking is best for the deck and why. Perhaps I value Sunforger too much, but I do like any answer cards to be instants under 4cmc for that reason, in the same why I'd rather run Aura of Silence in a deck with Enchantment synergies.
I don't really see the deck as one that can actively prevent opponents from achieving their gameplan, but finding ways to work around them. Because, for example, while Aura of Silence is a great card, ultimately it doesn't further my plan and I'd really rather just play a mana rock. And yeah Return to Dust doesn't either, but it atleast has synergy with Sunforger and doesn't cost me a card in the end.
I really just try to get the most out of the cards I play, and I see them in 2 ways:
Anything that doesn't fall in those categories is either Lands, Ramp, or Sunforger Package.
I can see adding Reforge the Soul immediately to the deck so thanks for that one ;)
At the end of the day it is just different ways of valuing cards and deck building, no one is right or wrong. I'm also just happy to see someone else who enjoys building her too.
1 week ago
Good to see someone else who shares my love of Kalemne! :)
You can't really afford to lose to a Ghostly Prison effect, so you might want to consider running more Disenchant effects. Aura of Silence is incredible because it taxes your opponents' mana until it gets rid of something, and it wombo combos with Sun Titan! I've also had great success with Nahiri, the Harbinger and Wear / Tear. I've never personally run this, but a classic Kalemne card is Ingot Chewer because you can evoke him and still get an EXP counter!
Maze of Ith and Kor Haven will also cause you problems, so some land destruction should be added in case anyone in your meta starts running these. Strip Mine and Dust Bowl are both classic and reliable
I really like @Ivogel's recommendation of Possibility Storm because I've run it before, and let me tell you, it immediately pisses off everyone else at the table (especially control players) and the value that you can get from double EXP counters is real! Highly recommend trying it out sometime!
To me, it doesn't look like you're running enough draw. If you ever want to add more, I've had great success with Reforge the Soul, Magus of the Wheel, and Howling Mine if you can't afford a Wheel of Fortune
1 week ago
First thing's first: "Why is this in the Rules Q&A thread?"
I decided to place this question within the main thread for two reasons.
1.) It will generate a bit more traffic to get a better answer since it's sort of an open-ended question as it embarks on both facts and opinions. By not putting it in the EDH or Modern thread, it allows players from both formats to enter the same thread and discuss the topic.
2.) We are actually talking about the ruling as to why it is banned in one format over another, and the interaction it plays within the two formats in general. I felt this was relevant enough to warrant this thread. I encourage any Mod / Admin who feels differently to please move this thread to a more appropriate section as desired.
So the question is why is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn banned in EDH but not in Modern? Obviously, having Em as a Commander is highly violent in nature. You could ramp into her via the plethora of stones and have a neigh unstoppable wrecking force.
But, at the same time when you consider the abrupt and vicious tactic of Nahiri, the Harbinger or an equally devastating Samut, the Tested if you can manage Haste with a quick spell / artifact, the game suddenly feels just as one-sided.
I'd actually argue she should be banned in Modern, and not in EDH. In Modern, you have one opponent, a smaller life total, a smaller pool of cards to build from, and your opponent could have not just four copies of her in their deck but also four copies of each method to draw her out. You could Goryo's Vengeance her out of your graveyard, you could Genesis Wave her from your library, you could Spawnsire of Ulamog her from outside the game - thereby effectively negating even the possibility of a Surgical Extraction if your opponent doesn't know what's going on.
But in EDH? If you manage to kill her via chump blockers, she's immediately going to cost a staggering , if not far, far more.
She has protection from colored spells, yes. But that resides in the realm of being targeted. To my understanding, protection acts a lot like Hexproof - If you aren't the "target", you aren't "protected".
Yes, a 15/15 flyer with Annihilator 6 is just the worst. But it's not unstoppable. Your opponent is the one who decides what is sacrificed, not you. So they could just keep a flyer or a creature with reach to chump block. If she doesn't have vigilance, all other opponent's will likely team up and take her down.
Now obviously I skimmed over the titanic Loxodon in the room (God, did I really just make THAT pun? Ugh...), and that is her extra turn she gives you.
But this is where my point is just even more honed in.
In Modern, where you have 20 life and games are usually violently quick, that 2nd turn may not even come up. Even if it does, it's essentially a 100% guaranteed win. If you don't have some sort of immediate answer, such as AEtherize, you are 100% losing the game unless you have tons and tons of life and tokens. In fact, Selesnya Tokens with some sort of lifegain buffer might just be THE BEST against her because you can shrug off both the damage and the Annihilator.
But in EDH? Well... You can wreak havoc against one opponent, then against the same opponent or another.
You're dealing a max of 30 damage. Yes, as a Commander that's lethal amounts. But she restricts you to a purely Colorless deck.
Meanwhile, as just a card in your main 99, you have to actually get her out and if you can't win in those next few turns, you bet you'll be taken down ASAP.
Let's talk about that 30 Commander Damage, by the way. You'd have to spend both turns attacking the same opponent to win. Thereby leaving two opponent's open to assault you. And if you spread the Annihilator around to wreak as much havoc as you can, you haven't actually beaten anyone - just set them back. No different than a Wrath spell, in that regards.
I feel like she's honestly too powerful for Modern, as she makes the game truly one-sided and doesn't even really need the 2nd turn in most cases. She deals nearly lethal damage just in one swing and destroys the entire boardstate along with it. Once she hits, it's game.
But in Commander, even if you manage to get her out it becomes less about EDH and more about Archenemy where IF YOU'RE LUCKY you can take out a single opponent during your second turn. Otherwise you just payed for a Wrath of God and a 2nd turn. Brutal, but not necessarily game-winning.
So what are your opinions? Do you agree? Do you feel differently? How so and why?
2 weeks ago
I like the Deus of Calamity and might mess around with them at some point but I don't know if I would want to trade what are typically my best threats for a beater that I have to pay full price for.
As for the other suggestion, I think they're far too expensive for that effect, especially when if I just ult Nahiri, the Harbinger, that's only a 4 mana and 2 turn investment that wins me the game immediately.
2 weeks ago
It isn't typically very slow and even when it is, Simian Spirit Guide is in there to speed things up.
Typical line of play is turn 1 suspend Greater Gargadon or play a fetch land and crack it on your opponents end step. On your next turn this lets you play two borderposts which then sets you up for a turn 3 where you put them to zero lands, zero creatures and possibly very few cards in hand.
After that, which is happening turn 3 typically, you just play a game winning card like Nahiri, the Harbinger, Metalwork Colossus or Chandra, Torch of Defiance. If you don't have a threat you play a way to speed up finding one like Supreme Will or Monastery Siege while also hoping to Restore Balance them to keep them from doing anything.
Overall, when the deck does what it wants to do, it can be very powerful and surprisingly fast.
3 weeks ago
This deck is sweet, but I would reccomend cutting Asylum Visitor to make the deck a bit more consistent by making Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt full playsets as I can see the deck being prone to early aggression. Furthermore Liliana of the Veil seems awkward in this deck as unlike Jund or Abzan your deck isn’t trying to grind out a win through resources but instead looking to win through a very specific Nahiri ult or Madcap play. Thus I reccomend going up to 4 Nahiri, the Harbinger as that is the card likely to win you more games, then I think maybe you want to go with the full set of Faithless Looting to get rid of dead cards late game. You don’t have to cut Lili entirely, but based on how the deck current looks your focus should definitely be on Nahiri foremost.
1 month ago
In all honesty, token beat down is how your current build is progressing. You need creatures/tokens in your deck to win a game, and you currently are not playing any creature spells. The only decks that do not play creatures/tokens as the win condition are combo decks such as storm, scapeshift, control etc. Your only non-token win condition is Nahiri + Emrakul, and that is a very slow plan and vulnerable to Dreadbore, burns spells to keep Nahiri from her ultimate, creature heavy decks, discard spells, and control decks. No Nahiri equals no emrakul casting, or very slow casting if everything is shuffled back into your deck and you hope to draw everything again. For a break down if your planeswalkers:
Ajani Vengeant seems to be more of a semi-control with the +1 ability, and using the -2 ability over and over again will be very slow and allows for your opponent to find an answer. The -2 ability does not hit all creatures in the format so it will not be very consistent with controlling the field. It is a good walker to get extra damage across, but not something I would not recommend using as a primary win condition.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant fits the token theme well and provides protection for your walkers. So no issues with this card.
Gideon of the Trials can be used for beat down when activated as a creature, but it is vulnerable to Path to Exile. Also, you lose the ability to attack with it as a creature if you have to use the +1 ability to protect yourself and your walkers. Thus, you would lose a win condition. Also, this would cause board stalls and allow for your opponent to draw into answers. I do think it is a good card to have in this deck though, but it just needs some additional support.
Liliana of the Veil is just a great card in general. I see no concerns with playing this card.
Nahiri, the Harbinger is a good card for filtering and the -2 ability will be relevant. I already addressed the concerns with the Emrakul plan.
Sarkhan, Fireblood is a good card filtering mechanic and is something early on that your opponent does have to answer. The -7 ability could be helpful, but it is a token which goes against your deck concerns.
So outside of your Nahiri + Emrakul plan, your win conditions are tokens generated by Elspeth, Sarkhan, and Lingering Souls, creature beats from Gideon, and pinging your opponent with Ajani. Even with the Oaths in there you are hinting around at a token themed deck because you get 1/1s from Gideon and 2/2s from Liliana.
Please do not get me wrong by all of this because I think you are on a right path with your build, but I just want to explain why adding more token generation would be important to your plan. You basically need a quicker clock so your opponents do not have enough time to find their answers. I suggested the other walkers in place of the Oaths because I felt like they fit your superfriends theme as well as providing more consistent token generation.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a good card in regards to token generation and clearing the board with the negative ability, but I do have to agree with the posts on your thread that getting up to 6-mana to play it may be tough. You can give it a try and see how it works because the worst case senario would be to just replace it with something else.
For Chandra, Torch of Defiance, I was not thinking that you should take Sarkhan out for it, but replace it for one of the Oaths since all of the abilities are relevant.
You could try your extra Inquistion and Thoughtseize plan, but that may be too much discard and without a reliable discard oulet on your end it would be a bad draw late game. I know you have Lilly, Sarkhan, and Looting in your deck, but that is just 7 cards out of 60 that allow you to discard. So your odds of having them out along with one of them in your hand for discard is small.
If you really want to get away from the token theme, you could try using man-lands as another win codition. These would be Shambling Vent, Lavaclaw Reaches, and Needle Spires. I am not sure if I would recommend that though because it has the potential to really slow downy our game early on since they have to come in tapped.
There are just a few ideas I had for you and in now am I trying to bully you into the token them. Just some things I was noticing with your current build and would like to help you make your deck more consistent.
May I ask why you are against the tokens theme?