|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Iconic Masters (IMA)||Mythic Rare|
|From the Vault: Angels (V15)||Mythic Rare|
|Avacyn Restored (AVR)||Mythic Rare|
|Promo Set (000)||Mythic Rare|
Combos Browse all
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Legendary Creature — Angel
Flying, vigilance, indestructible
Other permanents you control have indestructible.
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Avacyn, Angel of Hope Discussion
3 days ago
I'm thinking of challenging myself to build a mono-white EDH deck that can at least hold it's own. Doesn't need to be "competitive" in terms of cEDH, but I'd like to be able to hold against numerous opponents.
Haven't settled on a Commander or a theme yet, but I am looking into win conditions to actually close out the game. I'm thinking with enough prisons and such, I can kind of just bide my time. Between wraths, targeted exile, prisons and lifegain I think I can last long enough to play it out.
The win conditions that are reliable enough to make an impression that I know of are the following:
- Zetalpa, Primal Dawn + Grafted Exoskeleton = 1 hit kill
- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Kormus Bell + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth = All lands are 1/1 creatures, and all creatures my opponents control get -2/-2. Ergo, nobody gets lands but me
- Test of Endurance / Felidar Sovereign + Teferi's Protection = Hit the life total requirement and phase out so nobody can interfere with me. 100% surefire win upon phasing back in
- God-Eternal Oketra + flickering creatures = Giant boardstate. Isn't a win condition, but sets you up to win
Are there other good ones?
No, I will not be running Aetherflux Reservoir . I personally am of the opinion that it is a terrible "win condition". That's a topic for another day, so let's not discuss it here, okay? I may consider it as a lifegain enabler, but I will not consider it as a win condition.
Also, I'd love to hear some ideas on who would be a good Commander. Should I just choose Oketra / Zetalpa / Norn just so I always have access to them, or should I go for someone cheaper or perhaps better in terms of protecting what I have, such as Avacyn, Angel of Hope ? I know white is very has no ramp outside of generic stones like Sol Ring and Mana Vault , but if I go the route of enchantments / prisons then I at least have access to Serra's Sanctum . That with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx could be very beneficial.
So to reiterate, this thread is to discuss WIN CONDITIONS in mono-white, but if you have a decent suggestion on who should be at the forefront of the deck, feel free to share that as well.
5 days ago
enpc Fair enough, I'll get to your response in bits too. Sorry it's been so long underway but I've had my response written down on a different PC that I couldn't get access to for a while. I'm just going to post this initial section and keep adding to it going forward.
- "But your argument here basically boils down to "artifacts are bad because they die to removal". I get that there are a bunch of good artifact removal cards, but that doesn't mean that we should stop leaning into artifacts because of it."
Not quite true. My argument is that relying too heavily on artifacts makes you very vulnerable to a removal type that is a lot more common than counter measures to alternative kinds of resource generation - like land ramp, blue's untaps and artifact manipulation, black's graveyard ress, alternative payments, and rituals, and red's artifact swap, rituals and other mana cheats . It's a lot easier to counter measure an artifact than many of the other types of mana accelerations in the game. And if your color can basically only achieve a very fundamental mechanic of the game like ramp and card draw through artifacts, it makes you more vulnerable than those that can achieve it in a different way.
I completely agree with you that removal is a fundamental part of an interactive game like MtG and is part of the fun and makes the game what it is. I don't advocate that removal/interaction should be worse or something like that. However I reckon when there's a disparity between how well removal interacts with artifacts versus other mana accelerators and that it hits certain colors more than others, then I see a possible issue that is worth looking into and possibly correct.
- "In addition to this, white has a lot of ways of protecting your stuff from being destroyed, whether it's indestructible, hexproof, just an outright Teferi's Protection (which yes you did mention), or more importantly shutting down an opponent's removal source using Torpor Orb effects, of which white has many."
I mean outside of Avacyn, Angel of Hope and emblem elspeth , and the aforementioned Teferi's Protection (which is a pretty ludicrous spell in of itself), white cannot actually protect their own non-creature stuff that well. And their hexproof is mainly to protect the player themselves and not their board (there's odric off-keyword giver - I mean deathtouch, skulk, menace?) - which is kinda weird in my eyes as white is the color of community and going wide more than tall and have indestructible as a primary evergreen keyword.
So white doesn't actually have that good, flexible or effective means to protect their own non-creature stuff. White is even the color of indestructible as one of their primary evergreen keywords... and it's actually worse off when protecting non-creature permanents than a color like green .
So in your proposed scenario where white counters green's land ramp with MLD, green actually has a very good, cheap and flexible counter, that leaves white at a huge disadvantage. Although it is only one card, but then again, there are 3 major land destruction spells in white (that is legal in Commander) being Armageddon , Ravages of War (check that price tag, hello Portal), and Catastrophe ... and to an extend Fall of the Thran .
Lands have always been the exemption to many destruction effects and there have not been printed much in terms of land destruction in recent times (outside 1-for-1s Tectonic Edge that is meant for removing utility lands/power lands). So I'd like to challenge your claim that land destruction is what WotC wants to show is part of what white does. I cannot deny that WotC have made more stax-like cards for white in recent times, but I reckon that's because taxing and hindering is something WotC can more easily print for white as a color identity mechanic than land destruction, again because lands have a special status and don't perish as most other permanents in the game.
In relation to the mentioned cards that can help white to land ramp; true these exists and many utilize them in their decks if they don't have better options. I did not actually know of the Kor Cartographer , paralleling Wood Elves in a worse state, fitting of a color imitating another color's strength. I would just like to see more of these type of cards, and if WotC finds a way to make them less mana intensive (like the 6 needed for Burnished Hart - it's still a good card because it's 2 on the field, but it's good more due to lack of better) but requiring something else that white is good at, I think that would be a good compromise between allowing that power but not make it as flexible and strong as green's ramp. Simply requiring more mana to mana ramp, seems kinda unproductive as those colors wanting that imitating mana ramp is already light on mana production. Kinda feels like "Don't be poor, just be rich. It's easy making money when you're rich!".
And I'm afraid I'm being a bit repetitive, but stax effects in general, are something that negatively influences white's political standing and threat/annoyance assessment in Commander - so if white is doomed to be the "I hold the rest of you back"-kind of guy, to be somewhat "on par" with the rest, then white is always going to be a bad color for casual multiplayer formats, like Commander.
- "So again I push the point that white is capable, however the issue here is that it's not the way you (or some other casule commander players) want it to be. But again, that's not white's shortfall."
The limited data we have and many players' personal experience says that white is less likely to succeed in Commander than any other singular color. Do you think this is just pure fiction spun up by white-loving players? Or do you think there's some truth to it? Why would white players be more prone to bad deck building than players of any other color?
Jumping at bit in your post:
- "Here's where we get to brass tacks (if we haven't already), I wouldn't agree with you on the comment that "a large portion of the commander community" thinks that mono-white needs fixing. Ther eare some poeple, sure. And those people might make a lot of noise about it, but that doesn't mean it's the majority of players. I know that most players who I interact with would agree wiht my viewpoint on it."
My anecdotal evidence is from 6 friends I play Commander with, where most agrees that white is the worst of the colors for Commander when considering mono-color (I'm uncertain of the opinion of 2 of them as they haven't said it outright). Other than that I know that the Youtube content creators "The Command Zone" has strong opinions on white lacking support in Commander, and as far as I've seen in the comment section of their video regarding color strength, within context of the Commander format, there's a lot of people who shares that viewpoint and a lot who don't. Of those that don't share the viewpoint, there's some who are very vocal and sadly also some who are frankly quite rude in their statements.
I'll end my post here and get back to you when I have more time.
2 weeks ago
What I am seeing is that you have a lot of solid cards that are great in a vacuum, but not a whole lot of cards that actually work well with one-another. In others words you don't just lack combo, you also lack synergy. The issue with a deck like this is that you may be casting spells and expanding your boardstate every turn, but you aren't doing anything impactful to the game.
- You may feel like you are going off, but really you are just playing random cards.
What you lack, overall, are bombs. You need cards that immediately threaten the presence of the game such as Craterhoof Behemoth .
However, your Commander is Captain Sisay , so I am going to suggest specifically Legendary spells. This in turn gives you synergy between your Commander and the rest of your board.
- Avacyn, Angel of Hope ; A strictly better version of Zetalpa, Primal Dawn
- Bow of Nylea : Increases the danger of attacking into you. Trust me, when players see this thing on the field, it immediately halts aggression
- Dosan the Falling Leaf : Stops blue decks in their tracks
- Ghalta, Primal Hunger : Toward the end of the game, this is effectively a 1-2 turn clock. What I mean is, if you play Ghalta after a wrath, he will take down an opponent typically in 1 or 2 attacks. If you play him before a wrath, you threaten entire boardstates as players will need to double and even triple block to absorb the damage. And if he gets countered, so what? You only paid for him, anyway. At least, in most cases
- God-Eternal Oketra : You are running a lot of creatures. This should be main-boarded with no exceptions
- Karametra, God of Harvests : She allows you to ramp by playing creatures. The hidden power of Karametra is that by taking lands directly from your deck, you thin your deck down. This in turn increases the probability of drawing into powerful cards sooner rather than later
- Konda, Lord of Eiganjo : Effectively an 8/8 you can swing with and block with every turn. Just this alone makes opponents rethink attacks because they know they will lose at least one thing. This means they must attack with two creatures, knowing at least one will die
- Linvala, Keeper of Silence : Snuffs out creature-focused combo decks
- Odric, Lunarch Marshal : Overall a powerful synergy piece once your boardstate is robust enough
- Parhelion II : Solid boardstate generator
- Shalai, Voice of Plenty : Stops a lot of midrange decks
- Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger : Gross
- Yeva, Nature's Herald : Play in response to actions. Give your opponents the least amount of time to react to your spells
- Zetalpa, Primal Dawn : Deadly beater
3 weeks ago
Update from this weekends cEDH tournament.
Won all rounds, but probably should have lost to a Kess, Dissident Mage in round 2, had a Glen Elendra Archmage resolved. I managed to Toxic Deluge it but then they Thoughtseize my Grim Tutor so was waiting for a tutor to pull a Swords to Plowshares . Then they tapped out on casting a Pact of Negation on my Bloodgift Demon (At the time, I only had Reflecting Pool (luckily they had played a Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth which enabled it to be ) and they were trying to mitigate my draw. (Note: I kept a 0 land hand in that round because I had Mana Crypt , Arcane Signet , and Dark Ritual in hand. Soon as they had no , successfully resolved my combo (again), they had already Force of Will cast on me earlier.
Anyways, never used the Worldgorger Dragon at all, drew the Bogardan Hellkite in the last round, never played him. Each round got there the same way, Buried Alive + Reanimate . The last round I resolved a Razaketh, the Foulblooded , sac'd Kaalia of the Vast realized I didn't have enough , so had to wait a turn, then cast Kaalia of the Vast again, resolved an Avacyn, Angel of Hope , sac'd Kaalia of the Vast to pull a for Goblin Bombardment (post-combat) sacrifice all the Restoration Angel after casting Buried Alive + Reanimate .
Post the tournament, realized Demonic Consultation was too much of a dead draw, going to replace it with Plunge into Darkness , saw it played a couple times was not horrible, worst case just pulls a tutor usually.
Also worked that evening on replacing Worldgorger Dragon and Bogardan Hellkite but came up with nothing. I primary win-con all rounds, never went to Leonin Relic-Warder which is far safer secondary than Worldgorger Dragon . Still thinking a Doomsday is a better way to go, could do Doomsday + Night's Whisper and build a stack:
Leonin Relic-Warder (discard with Faithless Looting )
That's CMC7 though .
What I really need is another Buried Alive best I can think of is Final Parting >> Leonin Relic-Warder + Animate Dead (to hand), but then still need a Goblin Bombardment . So the combo would be Final Parting + Goblin Bombardment or Animate Dead . So would be CMC9. Better than Doomsday CMC7 (stack) + = CMC10, and doesn't require a same turn enabler like Street Wraith . Still not right though. Hmm.
1 month ago
Griselbrand for sure, this guy's money.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope is just a beast.
The Ur-Dragon seems terrifying here.
Shadowborn Apostle could fill in some huge gaps.
Id say give yourself a lot less removal and stuff to make your big guys untouchable like Lightning Greaves / Whispersilk Cloak / Darksteel Plate since your getting to cast big creatures for free, use your mana to protect them.
Removal can come from other stuff too like Sunblast Angel .
There are all sorts of fun control too like Dash Hopes / Dawn Charm to counter stuff. Once Kalia is un-touchable you should be good to go. Whip of Erebos can bring stuff back to play that gets killed.
Check out EDHREC, if you need more suggestions and can't get them here.
1 month ago
Maybe have a look at Gift of Immortality over Indestructibility as it can let a key creature survive a board wipe and maybe lean on Avacyn, Angel of Hope as a means of giving your permanents indestructible.
1 month ago
2 months ago
Hey guys, i need some tips in order to power up this Pauper UB Dimir into a casual format powerhouse. The only restriction is no single card more expensive than 50$ - 60$. My main opponents would be RW Dragons (with cards like Thundermaw Hellkite ; Grand Abolisher ; Mother of Runes ) and GW Angels with Avacyn, Angel of Hope ; Iona, Shield of Emeria ; Baneslayer Angel and some Elves to ramp mana. There are even some Circles of protecion and Leyline of Lifeforce here and there.
This is my deck: Dimir Alchemy
Avacyn, Angel of Hope occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.06%
GW (Selesnya): 0.78%
RBW (Mardu): 0.44%