|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
Combos Browse all
Thorn of Amethyst
Noncreature spells cost (1) more to play.
|Have (11)||ChainerDragon65 , MrCrazzyc , Shiromakuro , Feyd-Rautha , Wolfebladeelite , hippienproud , buildingadeck , TAI434 , Abzkaban , Mortiferus_Rosa , cklise|
|Want (42)||sleepy104 , buildingadeck , TiredTofu , toastertree , Alondith , Vukodlak , legobumb , Piekan , kovellen , flipdipple , snowmaster55555atgmaildotcom , joschang01 , AgentHellboy , marsp44 , baconater , MindAblaze , CryAll , lightbow , bezet , Esquire_ , SweetMermaidPuss , mango_channel , Cacosan , Tellur , RoninH3RO , Arcontos , westerhack , Aenderan , ReliableSenpai , writermike , XVicarious , NinjaExit , baalman9 , Orbrunner , Nano_Raptor , Sharpie1584 , nocipher , acbooster , regnek , FlavorPolice , DarkStarStorm , legioncult13|
Thorn of Amethyst Discussion
dingusdingo on Flex
3 days ago
It is true that there are infinite "what ifs" in a game as open as Magic, but we know that there are certain cards we can expect to see in the most competitive formats. If we look at what is currently being run and why its effective, we can better prepare our decks to be more resilient against them.
Your deck tries to combo out by ramping mana, drawing cards, and playing into a win-con. There are going to be certain styles of decks that are more prone to shutting you off, which is why I'm bringing up these strategies in particular. Since your combo window is turns 4-6, you need to be worried about two things in cEDH. The first is people comboing out faster than you. We see this in decks such as Gitrog, Godo Helm, or even Grenzo. When these decks are consistently busting their combo turn 2-3, you need to answer or lose. Relying on other players to put a stop to a win attempt will prove unreliable, which is why its so important that you slot removal. Your turn 4/5/6 answer does no good when the game is over by turn 2/3. If you have no way to turn off their win, you are asking them to goldfish to a victory on you.
The second type of decks that will prove problematic for a turn 4-6 combo deck is stax, because their deck is designed to deprive you of resources and push your combo window so far back that you are unable to combo before they have won. They drop very fast and efficient heavy mana rocks, and then put down tax effects to make you unable to play. This specific style of deck can be hard for your build because they can lock you out of playing your draw spells, they can steal your draws, or simply prevent your draws altogether.
Let me give an example to show you what I mean.
Stax Example Show
You take your second turn, you play another land, and are unable to play due to Trinisphere
Your opponent takes their second turn, playing a fetchland into Underground Sea . Tap tomb to make , untapping Grim Monolith with Voltaic Key , leaving . Tap Monolith up to , use sea and opal to get to . Drop Tangle Wire then Sphere of Resistance
You take your third turn. You tap your two lands to Tanglewire, play a third land, and are still unable to play due to Trinisphere .
Your opponents third turn, they drop Tangle wire to 3 before tapping tanglewire sphere and ancient tomb. They drop any land, use it for voltaic key to Grim Monolith, before using monolith for and opal for / for Timetwister / Wheel of Fortune / Windfall , gaining them 7 shiny new cards while making you lose your mulligan card quality opening hand. They pass, knowing you still can't play anything
Your fourth turn, you have to tap all 3 untapped lands to Tangle Wire , you play a land, and pass. You have basically been timewalked 3 turns in a row.
Your opponent starts their fourth turn, dropping Tangle wire to 2 before tapping wire and sphere of resistance to Tangle wire. They are now free to drop more stax pieces ( Nether Void Winter Orb Static Orb Thorn of Amethyst Lodestone Golem Stasis ), play whatever commander/s they run, tutor up very cheap and cost effective winning combos, or establish a game-winning board presence that leads to their game winning combos.
Your fifth turn starts, you tap two lands to Tangle Wire , and if you play a fifth land. You have 3 untapped, so you might be able to play a spell assuming they haven't dropped anymore stax pieces and aren't holding any counterspells. Note that you can only play a 1 or 2 cmc spell, Sphere of Resistance is out, so your commander is still a no-go, and Trinisphere ensures you are only getting 1 spell max here no matter what. Its more likely than not with your current build you won't be able to play any spells here at all because your average CMC is so high. You've basically been time walked 4 turns in a row.
Stax is a very common archetype in the competitive scene, which is why its so important that you try to stax-proof your deck. It looks to me as if stax can cause serious problems for you.
On top of taxing stax, there's another type that may shut your deck off. Heavy discard. An early Sire Of Insanity can hose your whole game, while Mindslicer can impact your card advantage enough to cause a loss. Multiple discard effects like Necrogen Mists Bottomless Pit Oppression landing by turn 2 will make your build extremely sad (Turn 1 Dark Ritual Cabal Ritual Mana Crypt + any producing land and drop two discard enchantments). Chains of Mephistopheles turns off all your big draws, so does Alms Collector or Notion Thief
Another set of cards I would recommend taking a peek at is recursion. It can help against discard effects that would otherwise shut you off, or serve as a 2nd/3rd/4th copy of your draw spell. Wildest Dreams would work surprisingly well in your deck, the mana aspect is negligible and lets you reuse multiple big draw spells from your graveyard, as well as recover from wipes. Nostalgic Dreams is arguably worse with the additional cost, but can translate extra basics tutored by your 3 cmc ramp spells into more draws. Regrowth is also fantastic.
I hope you don't mind the close inspection! I really enjoy your build, I'm just curious to know if you run into these cards and how you interact with them. Almost all the stax cards I linked are included in tournament proven cEDH lists with various commanders, so they're cards that are in the meta and will be played.
4 days ago
You might be right about Mox Diamond being a dead draw after turn 5, I didn't think about that. I'll still give it a shot and see how it plays out. I haven't given this deck a test run yet. I been focusing more on a few other decks that I been trying to complete. It almost feels like a never ending battle. I don't think one can really say "this deck is complete" but more like "I'm currently satisfied with this build" ha!
Hatred I dont want to go as far as to say this card is an auto include in everything black, but its almost damn near close to be. I feel it can be a great political card, as in, Make truths with someone for a round (you don't touch me, I wont touch you) to eliminate a bigger threat at the table. Regardless if its Regular or Commander Damage but then you can combine that with Combat Celebrant Maybe put Hatred on Kaalia of the Vast
I also feel it's starting to get a little iffy here. Are you trying to get an alternative win con? Combat Celebrant is a damn nice card (I have it and was actually waiting for you to post some test run results about it) but I feel if you're going to play that card, you gotta somehow be ready to win because you're going to be the target when the table goes around and if you're not ready to win, hopefully you have some support to untap it or protect it the next go around.
But again, if you aren't playing Aurelia, the Warleader then why play Combat Celebrant Is it the lower CMC cost that Combat Celebrant carries? But then you can argue, Aurelia, the Warleader technically can cost nothing if you cheat it out with Kaalia of the Vast granite you'll have to wait a turn for that combat trigger. I really don't know what to that because I dont know how you're going to go about it. Maybe my thought process of playing it is completely different than your way? who knows, I can also be over thinking all this, hahaha which is a bad habit of mine.
Crucible of Worlds works great in conjunction with fetch lands. Definitely can get to hard casting those A'D'D but I feel it will also slow down the tempo of your current build. Sure you can tutor it but is that tutor taking away from a more crucial card that will end the game sooner?
I feel Crucible of Worlds would work better in a stax build. Using Ghost Quarter , Wasteland then the support of Ravages of War , Armageddon etc...Throw in all your talisman and signets along with Winter Orb , Orb of Dreams , Mana Vault , Mox Opal , Thorn of Amethyst Paradox Engine and especially Inspiring Statuary plus so much more.
For me, it starts taking on a different build adding Crucible of Worlds which can also be fun but I dont know man, Kaalia of the Vast there are a few different builds you can make with her. Its nice to hear opinions from other people because everyones perspective is different but the only real way is to just throw it in and try it out? It might work or it might not.
dingusdingo on Flex
6 days ago
Nice deck! A lot of neat combos tucked in here. I have some suggested edits for you though!
Mouth of Ronom is a card you could very easily run. Green doesn't have a lot of targeted removal, and the opportunity cost for playing it is extremely low. If you swap your forests for snow covered forests, you're golden
I'm confused why you're running a fetchland at all. You don't need color fixing, and the deck thinning is extremely marginal when you consider how much it can slow you down against cards like Root Maze Back to Basics Thalia, Heretic Cathar Blood Moon Magus of the Moon Frozen AEther Kismet
Some of the card draw you run is pretty inefficient or extremely expensive. I'm specifically looking at Seer's Sundial and Sandstone Oracle . Sundial costs you 6 mana for the first card, while Sandstone is always dependent on opponents hand sizes for card draw, making it unreliable (and also costing 7 mana). I'm also not a huge fan of Sea Gate Wreckage but the opportunity cost for running it is extremely low. Have you considered Memory Jar or Howling Mine ? With your massive mana production Memory Jar could allow you to draw 7 and dump your entire hand. Howling Mine will accelerate your draws much earlier, although it is symmetrical. Beast Whisperer could be a good replacement if you don't want to give advantage to opponents, you certainly run enough creatures to justify. Life's Legacy is also a solid choice, especially since you're already running Greater Good
You run quite a few basic land tutors, some of them pretty low card quality. When you have access to Gaea's Cradle and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx , why are you spending mana and card resources looking for basic lands? Specifically looking at Cultivate Kodama's Reach Nissa's Pilgrimage Seek the Horizon Journey of Discovery and Yavimaya Elder . If you ran fewer than 40 lands in this deck, you probably wouldn't have to run so many cards to deck thin to help your top deck, you could pretty easily cut to 34-36 lands. I'm also not wild about the very high CMC Hour of Promise , but it does search for non-basics. I'm also not very hyped about Tempt with Discovery , if you are playing against even mediocre or up skill level opponents you will be paying 4 CMC to search for one non-basic land. You're only getting more than one land off Tempt against bad players, or against players who can drop a Gaea's Cradle or other super value land against you.
Speaking of ramp, you should consider running Priest of Titania as well as Karametra's Acolyte . Currently you are very vulnerable to Armageddon and Ravages of War , two cards that see play in stax decks (as well as others). Having Ramunap and Crucible is a good choice, but you won't have access to those every single game you get hit by Armageddon. You should really consider mainboarding Carpet of Flowers as well, its virtually guaranteed someone will be running blue in a pod of 4, and it will let you hit turn 2 Azusa, and provide more value as the game goes later for very small investment.
On the topic of Stax, your deck is super vulnerable to getting caught. Almost all your draw is 3+ CMC, you have basically no removal, and you run a barebones 0/1/2 CMC ramp package. Thorn of Amethyst Sphere of Resistance Winter Orb Static Orb Thalia, Guardian of Thraben Lodestone Golem all cause immense problems for your deck. I understand that if you start your draw engine, you can escape from underneath them by dumping lands with your commander, but what do you do if one of those stax pieces lands on turn 1? Going fast works against stax, but there's no way you're going faster than a deck that runs the full suite of 0/1/2 cmc artifact ramp (which most stax decks do). You aren't going fast enough to threaten a win on turn 3, so you need to include removal. Having no removal is also a huge problem when beatdown is your wincon. What do you do against Moat ? Or Island Sanctuary ? Or Solitary Confinement ? A single piece of removal in the form of an 8 cmc creature is just not gonna cut it against real decks.
I would also recommend casting a really critical eye towards anything 5+ cmc. Cards that cost that much that don't actively win or directly lead to winning are most likely not worth the mana investment or the card space, even though you are a deck that ramps mana and draws cards. To put it in other terms, there are better things you could be doing with that mana. Your primary win con costs 10 mana to cast, 20 more to use, for a whopping 30 mana. Its forcing you to run pretty low quality cards like Mana Reflection and Zendikar Resurgent to get to that absurd amount of mana, on top of 40 lands. Running lower CMC spells will allow you to free up those expensive CMC slots that only enable you to play other expensive spells.
A couple more cards in specific you should reconsider Akroma's Memorial Ring of Three Wishes . Memorial you can replace with Lightning Greaves as a haste enabler for Craterhoof Lines, and Ring happens to cost you 10 mana to get a single card to hand, 15 for 2 cards, 20 for 3 cards, which we would call inefficient.
Would recommend Staff of Domination , especially if you include Priest of Titania or Karametra's Acolyte . Opens up lines for infinite mana and drawing your deck, or just provides a solid dump when you have too much mana and nowhere to go. I would also recommend Eldritch Evolution as another strong tutor. Uncage the Menagerie and Weird Harvest are a bit lower quality, but potentially what you're looking for as well. And I can't stress enough, add some removal to your deck. There are plenty of hyper efficient 1/2 cmc removal spells in green, as well as creatures that pack removal on ETB, which combines well with all the green tutors you run.
2 weeks ago
As a general rule, cards that are Restricted in Vintage are banned in every other format. If something is too powerful for Magic’s most broken format, it’s probably too powerful for a more casual format like Commander. The exception is tax cards like Thorn of Amethyst , which are disproportionately powerful in a format where the first player can drop Moxen, locking the second player out of the game for good.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor’s point, which you discounted on the grounds of “but that’s only if it is in your opening hand” is valid.
The banlist exists in part because of degenerate opening possibilities. If a card puts you too far ahead too early, that’s not healthy for the meta. It turns victories into “who got lucky with their opening hand” not “who deserved to win.”
The rules committee does not want to produce games that are made or broken by whether you have a specific card in your opening hand. That the event might not always happen is irrelevant - it would happen enough to be problematic.
3 weeks ago
Don't warnt to Beat sound the Bush but it's like MUD without prison effects and with a big payoff if you got the setup. I like the idea but I doubt it would work out,maybe add some staples like Thorn of Amethyst to Resch the Pointe da eier.
3 weeks ago
clayperce thanks for the thoughts!
Yeah 14 non crestures is admittedly alot. I shaved off 2 off a failed experiment.
Opal somewhat pays for itself and the others are just chalice and thorn now! Runs better.
The original version had Field of Ruin but now i only run 2 basics..YIKES also the thought with Tectonic Edge is to keep them off the 4th land that can get 2 drops like Manamorphose for example to resolve through 2 tax effects.
Ruins of Oran-Rief ? Ive never seen this before! Yeah its a tap land but i can try this out in the 23 land version and treat it as a very very nice spell. THANKS FOR THIS!
after quite some thought and playtesting i did just swap out Blinkmoth Nexus for a full set of Inkmoth Nexus . It came along with the 4th Hangarback Walker as getting to 10 infect with just that and a Arcbound Ravager has been pretty insane. And yes rhe bloxks deffinately are so good.
Thanks alot man!
Chino90: i havnt thought anout that card. I actually havnt thought of a white splash at all. Currently i dont think my manabase can handle it but i will deffinately try a light white splash out. Thanks :)
3 weeks ago
I haven't playtested the deck so apologies if these are laughable! But here are a few thoughts:
- I totally get it that the deck wants tax effects but Thorn of Amethyst seems out of place in the mainboard. As a parallel, Humans generally runs 3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , but they only have 4x non-Creature spells in the main. I just can't imagine them running Thalia with 14x non-Creature spells ...
- Unless I'm missing something, it seems like Field of Ruin is better than Tectonic Edge here.
- I'm not sure there's any room for another utility land (especially one that enters tapped), but Ruins of Oran-Rief might be good here.
- I see the discussion above on Inkmoth Nexus but if you haven't already done so, it might be worth testing as a 2-2 spilt with Blinkmoth . Inkmoth just really complicates decision-making by opponents, and it's also very solid on defense (since even if it dies, the -1/-1 counters nerf future attacks).
Good luck (and good skill) with the deck!
1 month ago
If youd take a look at successful prison decks in modern they tend to drop chalice on turn 2 just fine. Death and taxes primary tax card thalia js dropped on turn 2, Thorn of Amethyst is almost the same card, but i have 8 more cards to hinder the opponent. Tax wise i hit much harder than dnt and red prison decks. Im just trying to tune this to make it better than it already is.
Every tier 1 deck started as someones janky build :)
Thorn of Amethyst occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%