|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|From the Vault: Twenty (V13)||Mythic Rare|
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Fading 4 (This artifact enters the battlefield with four fade counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a fade counter from it. If you can't, sacrifice it.)
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player taps an untapped artifact, creature, or land he or she controls for each fade counter on Tangle Wire.
Tangle Wire Discussion
2 days ago
I don’t know your meta but in a blind meta I think that you should play Sphere of Resistance , Static Orb Tangle Wire , Thorn of Amethyst , Trinisphere , Winter Orb and maybe Root Maze . You must add some restriction cards such as Containment Priest , Ethersworn Canonist and Spirit of the Labyrinth . In a graveyard environment you must play at least with Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace . Autumn's Veil and Mirri's Guile are great additions too.
1 week ago
Hey, @jaymc1130, Thanks for the in Depth response I really appreciate it!
"there are a number of choices that are particularly awkward in terms of Cedh and prevent this list from being as competitive as it could be"
Now that would be merely a biased opinion in a dataless world were no tournament viable feedback or anything else is available except for some wonky "FUNmander" youtube channels that attempt to play "Cedh" but don't even come close to what a tournament setting and maximum competitiveness would represent...
Either way, Our commander league, Tournaments, and FNM over here don't mean anything either but the experience of some of our pods are easily on par or even way better than any player on any power/tier/whatever list or any channel/stream you can imagine (not talking about the garbage command zone, TeamTurnThree, or star-city games but most of them are irrelevant anyway as they always have the 4-5-6-7 same people in 4 man pods which does not mean anything either regarding consistency or tournament level competitive viability ;) )!
Nonetheless, I will go over your thoughts with care, but my list seems to have been outdated when you were typing: s
(Cards marked with were already cut during the time of your writing and for some reason you saw an outdated build or my deck hadn't updated yet nonetheless I left at 19:00 ish after the feature and update I did :) )
1 - Aetherflux Reservoir was already cut, the list just didn't want to update for an entire day now but this card isn't needed indeed...
1.1 - Jace, Wielder of Mysteries Though is an equally okay flex slot as for example "consul" or "tainted pact" routes as an extra backup when loopable spells no longer become an option or get used/exiled along the way... Just going for the same strategy is often not always possible and this can fight trough rule of law effects/sphere/ and heavy Stax meta pretty easy regardless of being drawn or not... while just exiling the entire deck under Urza and only having to resolve Jace and a +1 winds-of-rebuke/Labman/and also drawing you a card +1 ... you can side it out pretty easily here as well with any generic draw or interaction spell like you mentioned later on.
I' de say it's consistency would definitely not suffer from running Jace...
2 - Time Spiral : same as fluxervoir... didn't update for the longest time was taken out around 19:00 - 20:00 before featuring it as I had to go to work but yeah still working on the list, after tests and what not xD
3 - Unwinding Clock I can see where you are coming from but being able to tap out for single/multiple activations of Urza or tapping out for anything else and still untapping to be able to interact again still sounds good enough for me. Perhaps sinks could use it to create more advantages but I'm pretty sure just 1 or 2 of those won't make the difference... Yisan also loves its Seedborn Muse although here it's a bit more specific for artifacts and Urza...
4 - The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale It is Just too good in dork/tymna/frog/ or 90% of the decks that need their commander in play to actually do something Meta (najeela,sissay,yisan,gitrog,selvala,and the list goes on and on and on)... + great against Hatebears.. it is fairly expensive sure but if it's not in your budget just use any utility land you see fit or an extra island...
5 - Gilded Lotus : List didn't update...
6 - Tezzeret the Seeker : Tezzeret is a wincon -5 + more mana +1 + a tutor for everything this deck is about so definitely not the wrong deck for it...
7 - Fabricate : Mages are too narrow and don't even compare to Fabricate as it can fetch any artifact at the same CMC so why handicap yourself on specific CMC when you, for example, aren't looking for that CMC 2 card and could have won using a way more flexible tutor...
8 - Fellwar Stone : Fellwar stone 70 % of the time always taps for blue... But you're right there are better Artifacts to slot in, but since I'm on so many I'm actually going to give Sai a shot as he can also combo with some of the cards already in the deck and draw cards...
9 - Merchant Scroll , Dig Through Time , and Fact or Fiction : The cards have always worked and will always work + dig deep so they are kinda auto-includes for me and many others amongst the Cedh community.
10 - Rhystic Study : Hmm, even if they pay for it it has done its job pretty damn well... The amount of time you can come back from otherwise lost games with this card is Absurd... even if it's only one extra card per turn cycle it's worth it and on many occasions, not everyone can afford to pay up... This is a Mono-Blue deck and will have a lot of grindy games so why not grind harder than everyone else? Again if you don't forget the trigger having them pay 1 more for everything sounds like an auto-include one-sided sphere effect to me with the added bonus of drawing you and generating card advantage at any stage of the game if they don't or can't...
Onto your inclusions for this deck:
11 - Crystal Shard : Just no... pretty bad card...
12 - Voltaic Key : List didn't update...
13 - Trophy Mage : Mages are too narrow...
14 - Tangle Wire is okay to run but does die off rather quickly and should see more play in Stax heavier Urza decks... But Trinisphere As mentioned in the primer can only effectively be shut off during the end step of the opponents turn before your turn... it untaps in your turn and you can not break parity like you can with the orbs... Because using it for mana during your turn shuts it off for the others... So a no go for any Urza deck compared to the orb effects... even playing null rod is better than playing trinipshere here...
15 - Aether Spellbomb : Casting Urza and recasting Urza is a bad and slow plan I'm not committing this deck to and requires more dead slots... I'm fairly happy with the artifact suite right now + The Monolith package as it works and wins if it resolves paired with their respective pieces... I've been on Oona long enough and yea having more pieces to the puzzle that do the same and work together is pretty nice...
16 - Pongify and Rapid Hybridization : Are In the maybeboard, they are flex slots if your meta has more creature win conditions but here it's too mixed to have full effect from these (also loopable spell slots if you don't want a bird army but an ape army for example... the same goes for Reality Shift under a second scepter (copy artifact) it still requires a target for it to work though, but can be a wincon when looped)
17 - Mishra's Workshop : Sounds pretty good, to be honest!
1 week ago
Interesting build, but there are a number of choices that are particularly awkward in terms of cEDH and prevent this list from being as competitive as it could be.
First and foremost: Aetherflux Reservoir and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries . At 4 mana these cards are on the slower side for cEDH, and what's worse is both are only good in the situation where you are actively in the process of comboing off. 99% of the time you draw these they will be dead cards. You will lose more games per 100 played against top tier decks just running these cards than if you ran any 2 other random cards. Much too card slot inefficient for cEDH, I personally would never run either of them in any cEDH deck and expect to win consistently.
Time Spiral : If you already own and are running Timetwister then including this card seems very odd. It can't loop your Timetwister and is very difficult to cast. It's not a terrible inclusion for the purpose it serves, it's just that running it makes the deck less consistent in terms of opening hands and early plays as it will also be a dead card outside of actually comboing off. Another card that is too inefficient card slot wise to make the cut for cEDH.
Unwinding Clock : Cute, but it doesn't really have much synergy with the rest of the list. I'm looking for mana sinks that can repeatedly make use of the extra mana available, but Sai is in your maybe cards, there is no Kefnet or similar effect, not even so much as a Compulsion to generate value from the Clock triggers. Ultimately this Unwinding Clock is a card that is already fringe viable for cEDH and while I think there might be an Urza build that could make good use of it your current list seems rather lacking in it's ability to leverage that extra mana for maximum value.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale : I'll be honest, I immediately included this card in my original lists as well. And then I play tested with it and found out that it was often proving more of an impediment to me than my opponents. Urza + Construct makes for a hefty upkeep tax without considering any other creatures that might come into play on your side or that you might wind up with multiple huge constructs out that are a serious threat you don't want to sacrifice but also can't afford to keep if you want to be able to interact with an opponent. I made the choice to cut this card and keep it as a side board option for specific creature heavy meta's where I'd run a less creature intense list myself and this decision wasn't all that difficult. It's also an extremely expensive card so many people who are not as lucky as I am to own a copy will find it difficult to accommodate.
Gilded Lotus : While this card is a staple for CVT decks, it's not a relevant card the majority of the time for an Urza deck. Urza is already turning all artifacts into mana rocks, it costs 5 mana, and since Urza makes blue mana the colored mana is also not relevant. Fine card, wrong deck for it though.
Tezzeret the Seeker : Similar to Gilded Lotus, this card is a staple for CVT, but out of place in Urza decks. Too mana intensive, a bit on the slow side, and running Paradox Engine as a primary means of untapping basically turns him into a 5 mana artifact tutor that can't fetch Paradox Engine itself. Fine card, probably the wrong deck.
Fabricate : I've been back and forth on including this and ultimately have opted not to run it. I think it's an acceptable card to run, even if it's a bit on the edge of what's truly cEDH viable, but Urza builds focused on low cost artifacts can probably get more value from the tutor mages (Trophy, Trinket, Tribute). Particularly when combined with an Urza must run card I will get to later, the mages out perform Fabricate for their ability to be reused and as blockers that can trade for Tmnya (a very important consideration in cEDH).
Fellwar Stone : In a mono blue deck where all your artifacts are regularly turned into blue moxen this card seriously under performs when compared to Thought Vessel or Mind Stone which offer some utility outside of being pure mana rocks. It seems like a very odd inclusion if the goal is to be cEDH level competitive. Card slot efficiency is key and the other options mentioned bring more to the table.
Merchant Scroll , Dig Through Time , and Fact or Fiction : I've elected not to run any of these for the time being, let me know how they work for you. I'd be really interested to hear how consistently they create the right kind of value as these are options I have on my radar but feel there are better inclusions.
Rhystic Study : Is a card I've cut from every single cEDH deck I have. The meta has become to grindy with games taking quite a long time and tons of mana available to every player for this card to generate any value at all in my games. Everyone pays for it every time, it's just too slow to get it out, and the mana spent to deny draws seems to very rarely impact opponent's abilities to interact appropriately. I consider this card at the moment to be extreme fringe viable for cEDH at best.
On to some noticeable exceptions from your list.
Crystal Shard : This card is an absolute must run win con for Paradox Engine Urza lists for cEDH. It's hands down proven to be the single most reliable and effective method of winning games in my testing so far and should be run even by budget lists as the card is very affordable to acquire. Generating an infinite army of infinitely large creatures that generate exponential mana ramp all at one time is more than enough to win games. It's never a dead card as it can generate value outside of winning the game where cards like Jace and Aetherflux cannot and is easier to cast than either. A must run for cEDH Paradox Urza lists.
Voltaic Key : Another must run combo enabler and value generator card for any Paradox deck of any color that also runs Top and mana rocks. Just assembling Key, Top, Engine, and mana rocks totaling at least 2 mana production means infinite draw and untap triggers, infinite storm count, and eventually infinite mana as you draw into more rocks. Absolute must run for cEDH viability. At worst it's a 1 cmc mana rock, at best it wins you the game.
Trophy Mage : A quality value body that can find a number of pieces that buy Urza the time needed to go off or the all important Crystal Shard (often the first target, so you can reuse the mage repeatedly for the other targets).
Tangle Wire and Trinisphere : Already running Static Orb, so Tangle Wire should be a no brainer to completely lock down opposing board states and create an opportunity to combo off. Trinisphere, likewise, can be better leveraged by Urza than any other commander and can seriously complicate opponent's abilities to interact, advance board state, etc. Easy to tutor for with Trophy Mage. Turn into mana rocks that allow you to deactivate their effects at will. The best time buying options available to cEDH Urza lists.
Aether Spellbomb : Already running Academy Ruins and Candelabra, so this should be an auto include. Worst case scenario, it's a one cmc mana rock. Situational use scenario, it can interact with the board when needed. Best case scenario, it wins the game through allowing repeated castings of Urza, or infinite draw triggers to draw itself (using Ruins to put it on top of library before it's draw trigger resolves) which generate infinite spell casts for infinite Paradox untap triggers for infinite mana to do basically anything you would like. Must run if already running Candelabra and Ruins.
Rings of Brighthearth and Basalt Monolith : I run these as a flex combo for extra resiliency and more consistent access to infinite mana generation. Between Paradox Engine, Dramatic Scepter, and these its going to be very difficult for opponents to shut down all our infinite mana generation options with a lucky Ashiok, Dream Render activation or similar effect. These two also happen to be easy to tutor for as Trophy mage can target them both. Brighthearth also combos with SDT for multiple draw triggers allowing the drawing of the whole deck and infinite spell casts into infinite untaps with Paradox Engine out for 1 more mana than Key+Top. Redundancy like this where multiple pieces all provide the same net effect makes the deck's performance more consistent against other top tier decks that will all be running tons of interaction and disruption elements that can often stifle your first, second, or even third attempts to position for a win.
Pongify and Rapid Hybridization : Cheap effective creature interaction in a color that often lacks good ways to deal with creatures. I'm not running Gilded Drake at the moment, but that has more to do with my meta not including good targets for it (like Gitrog Monster). These 3 cards are going to be the primary means of dealing with a troublesome creature for cEDH Urza lists, and you must be able to run enough interaction to interact often enough in the longer, grindier meta of cEDH at the moment.
Mishra's Workshop : Doesn't feel like a must run to me, but I have rather enjoyed it's performance in my games thus far. Particularly potent on turn 1 when you have multiple mana rocks in hand and can enable extremely early Paradox Engine drops.
I've got my list here if you'd like to take a look: Looper
1 week ago
Crystal Shard , in my mind, has become the single most important win con for Paradox powered Urza lists. It's proven extremely effective in my limited testing thus far and provides value outside of situations where you are actively going off while being relatively easy to tutor for. It's also inexpensive so even budget builds should be running it as the primary win con.
Personally, I've had better performance with Sai, Master Thopterist than Mirrodin Besieged , although both cards fill a similar role. Enchantments are generally harder to remove, but they also don't block Tymnas. I tried running both and it felt a bit like overkill and what I really needed in that game was a piece of interaction or card draw over one of them to actually go off, but it might be the right call to run multiple of those effects ( Trail of Evidence also for consideration in that case as something similar).
I've got my list here if you're interested: Looper
1 week ago
If that won't work, I'd recommend trying to use a very specific loop:
You need to start by making sure no one can reasonably do anything. Chains of Mephistopheles , Sensei's Divining Top and you being hellbent ( Oppression / Bottomless Pit and Chains help this) are all that is required. On each of your upkeeps, activate top, milling one card, placing top on the top of your deck. After that, you draw the top, replay it, and each turn you always can be assured you won't mill out. It lets you actually deck each opponent. Making it so no opponent can win isn't super easy, use effects like Humility , Winter Orb , Tangle Wire = Aminatou, Rest in Peace /Leyline/etc.
Now, many variants use Helm of Obedience with Rest in Peace / Leyline of the Void , or they run some Walker like Teferi, Hero of Dominaria or any number of other easy walkers that win, but I haven't found it necessary.
BTW, this list is old, not updated fully with me currently testing War of the Spark and Modern Horizons cards.
2 weeks ago
ToffMcSoft - I've had mixed results with Narset, but the games where she was effective she's basically why the deck won. The combo with wheel effects is pretty nice. I've been play testing the core of this with about 90-93 cards kind of set and mixing up the things I throw in the last 6 or 7 slots to see what extra things matter the most without much consensus outside of "yep, all 12 or so of these options that could fit in here work in the niche scenarios where I want them to work."
Trinisphere, for me at least, has been terrific, but it's best used in one common scenario I've found.
When I cast Trophy Mage my typical first target is Crystal Shard as having it allows some really nifty shenanigans with Paradox Engine (With any of the 3 tutor mages in play, Urza out, Shard out and 4 mana rock mana available I can deterministically reach infinite tap and untap triggers pending interaction from opponents by infinitely replaying the tutor mage and searching up targets that provide me more gas and rocks). But in situations where I don't yet have my engine set up and in place I tend to need to buy some time so playing the Trophy Mage to grab Crystal Shard to use to replay Trophy Mage for Trinisphere helps me lock opponents out of efficient things to do for a couple of turns while I'm probably going to be tutoring up 3 cmc artifacts to cast any ways. Usually this turns into the full lock combo of Trinisphere , Static Orb , and Tangle Wire reliably and usually shuts my opponents out of the game so much that I can then cast Urza and start to abuse his ability. All of those lock pieces then turn into lock pieces that are also now ramp pieces that I can shut off and on at will to keep opponents out of the game for a turn cycle or two while I set up to go off or just go off. In this capacity Trinisphere has worked absolute wonders for me and I have a difficult time imagining ways to replace it since it's drawback usually proves negligible but the upside is an effective and so far consistent line of play that usually sets me up nicely for a win with pretty minimal risk.
An unfortunate piece of collateral damage to include the Trophy Mage package was Narset as she was at the same mana cost but had a more narrow use case. I figure a couple more games with her in and out in place of some of these other pieces will happen before I settle on what all my 3 cmc pieces should be.
2 weeks ago
Sol Ring Mox Opal Thran Dynamo Basalt Monolith Grim Monolith Mox Amber Gilded Lotus Mana Crypt Mana Vault Worn Powerstone Hedron Archive Dreamstone Hedron Fellwar Stone Fractured Powerstone Mind Stone Thought Vessel Sky Diamond
Solemn Simulacrum Ornithopter Memnite Clever Impersonator Phyrexian Metamorph Etherium Sculptor Master Transmuter Metalworker Kuldotha Forgemaster Myr Retriever Scrap Trawler Junk Diver Myr Sire Trinket Mage Treasure Mage Trophy Mage Palladium Myr Hangarback Walker Sai, Master Thopterist Phyrexian Walker Shimmer Myr Foundry Inspector Dross Scorpion Workshop Assistant Cathodion
Jester's Cap Memory Jar Scroll Rack Voltaic Key Clock of Omens Thousand-Year Elixir Myr Turbine Rings of Brighthearth Tezzeret the Seeker Mycosynth Lattice Unwinding Clock Sculpting Steel Mirage Mirror Grafdigger's Cage Caged Sun Extraplanar Lens Gauntlet of Power
2 weeks ago
I'll admit, I neglected Sai and Mirrodin Besieged at first because I figured if I'm already repeatedly tapping/untapping for Paradox shenanigans then I can win the game anyways. I tried them both out though and the one game where one of them landed the effect proved to be just what I needed to start generating critical mass and ramp up to infinite. I'm liable to keep that in from now on.
I've found, so far at least, that the most important thing is just to get Paradox Engine down with a Sensei's Divining Top out at the same time. Without much mana to work with these 2 cards can start the ball rolling. Anything that will allow you to untap the Top at instant speed (Voltaic Key is best here) nets you two Top draws with the Top moving itself to your hand and one mystery card. Then playing Top again untaps everything. It may start the process in a herky jerky kind of a way, but this often winds up ramping to critical mass quickly and reliably.
I'm all in on the 1 cmc or less utility artifacts and tutor methods. These things are mana dorks most of the time and the useful bonus effects help ensure progression up the ramp ladder.
Tangle Wire occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%