|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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Creature — Beast
When Manglehorn enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact.
Artifacts your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.
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3 weeks ago
Thanks, that response was great. I have been following your deck building work for a while.
I am considering cutting Null Rod, Stony Silence, Sanctum Prelate, Runic Armasaur, and Ulvenwald Tracker. Consecrated Sphinx, Glen Elendra Archmage, Tendershoot Dryad, Sun Titan and maybe Idyllic Tutor would be the replacements.
There are no artifact based decks. I see the fast mana artifacts some. Grim Monolith, Mox Diamond and Mana Crypt are rare. Sol Ring, Thran Dynamo and Mana Vault are played. I never see Paradox Engine.
The other list has eight means to tutor creatures and none to tutor instants. Caustic Caterpillar and Manglehorn are in the list. I don't see Blood Moon, Back to Basics or many of the oppressive enchantments. I do see a lot of Propaganda effects. Do you think changing Manglehorn to Reclamation Sage would allow me to cut Nature's Claim?
Thanks for taking time to answer these questions. I know you have played Derevi for several years. Your insight into the deck is very informed.
4 weeks ago
PookandPie SynergyBuild First off just to give everyone a little more information my meta consists of Animar, Zur Shimmer Storm, Paradox Arcum, Gitrog Frog, Chain Veil Teferi, Jarard Protean Hulk, and then a bunch of random more casual stuff, however the mentioned lists are fully competitive. Natural Order will definitely be getting tested at some point since I've yet to struggle to get a green creature out. As for Manglehorn I've been on the fence about it for a while. I also play a cEDH Yisan list that runs it and it does very well there, although I may cut Elvish Piper for it. This is the first graveyard focused deck I've built and initially I wanted to make sure I had enough ways to cheat protean hulk out but I haven't had a situation where Piper is the fastest answer. Usually Fauna Shaman ends up functioning like I want Piper to. Toxic Deluge probably would end up hurting this deck more than helping because Animar is the only other deck in my meta where creatures really matter.Loyal Retainers has been such a flex slot I still haven't bought it in paper haha I mostly just wanted the redundancy of Rallier in case one got exiled or whatever. I've only managed to get about 10 real games in and it's performing well right now but there's definitely room for improvement, and yes you're correct in assuming Bloom Tender will be replacing Caryatid. I'd also like to work Elesh Norn into the deck so I could have another game changing reanimation target, but I'm not sure if it is worth running if I don't also run the Living Plane combo with it. Again thanks for the help!
1 month ago
He has 17 green creatures at 3 mana and under. While there is the chance of drawing Order without a green creature, there's higher odds of drawing Pattern or Rector with no sac outlet, etc.. Natural Order absolutely deserves a slot in this deck.
As a quick aside, I do see that you have those cards I mentioned in your maybeboard. Whoops. Well, let me give some more in-depth advice now.
Manglehorn is a very solid new addition to a lot of competitive green decks, and this deck would be no real exception.
Toxic Deluge may be an invaluable little card in the event you have to play against Blood Pod or some variant of Stax (Captain Sisay, for example) in competitive pods. It also gives you another way to get Rector or Hulk put into the graveyard should you have 2B open, which is something I've actually had to do more than once (Blood Pod is kind of a pain in the ass for a graveyard-centric deck to deal with which is why I recommend some things to interact with it. If you have 0 Blood Pod in your meta, ignore this unless you think the added sweeper will be helpful.
As for what to remove: I'm not too big on Elvish Piper: Everything this deck wants to do, it can do through Pattern, Natural Order, or discard + recursion enchantment. Or, hell, ramping up to 7 and casting it is oftentimes easier than trying to stick a 4 mana summoning sick creature who either puts in a 7 mana creature (Hulk) or creatures with a lower cmc than itself lol. Loyal Retainers may also be one you could safely cut, because while it's great with the Saffi win condition, Renegade Rallier now does that better (so you can do Rector + Seer + Whatever first time, sac Rector for Animate Dead, then get Rallier + Cutthroat + Whatever because Rallier can bring back Animate Dead. Sac Rallier with his trigger on the stack, trigger resolves, Animate Dead returns and brings Rallier back, repeat until everyone is dead, or you can do another line of Hulk to win some other route if you wanted). Rallier also works with a sac outlet + Saffi for this same combo, so while Retainers can bring back 3 creatures in the deck (not including the Commanders), you have other lines you can combo off with. Of course, there may also be some use for Retainers I'm not seeing beyond the limited utility and the Saffi + It + Cutthroat line that Rallier can do, too (and I miss things often, so I'm open to hearing how lol).
I'm also assuming that Bloom Tender will be replacing Sylvan Caryatid once you obtain one? That will be a good call too.
I personally played Cabal Therapy and think it may deserve a slot in here too.
1 month ago
Oh, I take back what I said, forget it, sorry about me white-knighting the competitive tag in the past (not far past, but still) and I love the list!
If you really want to make it competitive, I can't promise I can make Arahbo tier 1, but tier 2-3 I can do, as long as you are willing to drop some of the more fun cats, and are able to build up this deck to become a stax-beatdown hybrid.
Okay, so to start, consistency is key, more tutors should be the goal, think Fauna Shaman and Survival of the Fittest type cards, and you'd really want to slow the deck down, which is the opposite of what most people will say.
Running Vryn Wingmare, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Glowrider, and Thorn of Amethyst can stop many combo decks in their tracks, and shut off storm decks in general, while not slowing you down nearly as much. Avacyn's Pilgrim, Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Arbor Elf, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, and Boreal Druid are all fast mana ramp that gets you to dropping your commander + Lost Leonin combo (what I believe to be the simplest wincon) faster and also gets unaffected by non-creature hate.
Effectively I am arguing for stax, but not just stax, also combo, running the combo you already have is fine, Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder, however it doesn't win the game until your next turn unless you already have a large amount of mana, or an Aetherflux Reservoir type effect.
Consider Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid/Wirewood Channeler + Umbral Mantle/Sword of the Paruns/Staff of Domination as a powerful combo with cards that are individually useful. Emptying all of that infinite mana into a Genesis Wave or Walking Ballista can easily win games.
Okay, for the 50 bucks thing, Armageddon, Ramunap Excavator, Glowrider, Vryn Wingmare, Aven Mindcensor, Norn's Annex, Ghostly Prison, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Arbor Elf, Elvish Mystic, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Boreal Druid, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Nature's Claim, Dryad Militant, Rest in Peace, Path to Exile, Suppression Field, Aura of Silence, Beast Within, Manglehorn, Mother of Runes, and Return to Dust add up to $49.95 on TCGplayer not including tax or shipping costs, and make up a core stax build, with other reasonably cheap cards that could help being Root Maze, Natural State.
1 month ago
I think your underestimating my suggestion of Victimize, it costs 1 less mana than Zombify and at the expense of sacrificing a cheap creature it reanimates rather 2 creatures even if so etb as tapped. I think Victimize would be the better choice, but if you still disagree you should at least consider Dread Return if you can acquire them over Zombify as it's a slight upgrade.
I think you should also add in something like Torgaar, Famine Incarnate as 1x of that I featured in that above list, it makes for a good reanimation target for a few reasons: first of all the most obvious is to halve your opponents life total, but something you may not have thought of is that it can also be a way for you to gain a little bit of life. It also unlike Pelakka Wurm, and Moldgraf Monstrosity is much easier to cast if necessary when reanimating something is not an option due to it's cost reduction effect.
Also do you encounter a lot of artifacts or something? I don't think Viridian Zealot is necessary here otherwise, in any case if you do feel you need such an effect you should swap them for Caustic Caterpillar, or Manglehorn?
1 month ago
muckfac Unfortunately, there hasn't been much in recent sets that have really contributed to the primary gameplan. I think the closest card in recent sets to make the cut would be Bramble Sovereign. Unfortunately, after a brief testing period, he didn't make the cut. The worst part about him is that he's a terrible topdeck and requires him to be in play first to generate value. Additionally, as a tutor target when you go off with a lot of mana he's essentially a worse Temur Sabertooth. If you don't have a lot of mana he's not great either, as his ability costs quite a bit of mana and only becomes mana-positive if you both have Concordant Crossroads and a card like Priest of Titania in hand.
The other card I'd most consider would be Whiptongue Hydra. I think its effect is very powerful, and would be good in a meta where there are a ton of flyers. However, we already run Hornet Queen and Maze of Ith, which are better general-purpose cards. It reminds me of Bane of Progress, which while great in some metas, kind of gets outdone by more flexible MD answers like Reclamation Sage and Manglehorn.
The deck I feel is in a really solid place right now. I think the most "flexible" slots if you wanted to try new things are the Woodland Bellower/Fierce Empath package, as well as Mana Reflection. However, I really like the flexibility of the bellower. If you need bodies, it's 3 bodies via Wood Elves and Dryad Arbor. If you need gas, it fetches Fierce Empath for Regal Force. If you need to kill problematic artifacts/enchantments it can fetch Reclamation Sage and Manglehorn, and if you need to recur cards from your GY, it can fetch Eternal Witness and Ramunap Excavator .
As for Mana Reflection, the card's sometimes win-more, but I've found that you get enough value off of it with our 3 mana rocks, Nykthos, and Cradle. It can sometimes be awkward when you're behind, but this deck runs a bunch of great mana sinks to make it shine. I think it's a lot less win-more than Doubling Season, a card I used to run. The problem with Doubling Season is that instant-ult Freya requires both a decent board and Freya to be in the command zone. If you play it with Freya out, your opponents are a lot less likely to pick her off (and just keep her at a constant 1 or 3 loyalty). If you're not using it with Freya it's a more dead card than Mana Reflection, as you'd much rather have the extra mana to kickstart combo turns than extra tokens which are either excessive or vulnerable to creatures. Mana Reflection is great before or during your combo turn, as it only requires cards that tap for a total of 6 mana to be mana-positive, and counts as a ritual effect. Additionally, it's a 3rd combo piece with Earthcraft (first two being Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl), which is fantastic.
Despite all this, I think there's also an argument for cutting it, so I think it's the first slot to go if there's something new to be tried. Let me know if you have any ideas; new ideas are always encouraged and welcomed!
1 month ago
Hey all! Just a few comments, been busy lately but I really appreciate all the interest in my build, and as one of the few folks who has already fleshed out a version of Jund lands ahead of the imminent C18 I hope I can offer some insights and thoughts.
I will be waiting for the full spoiler before I update my build, comment on all the new goodies, and make final decisions, but early on here in spoiler season I already have a few things I’d like to say.
First, I think Lord Windgrace is a very interesting card, and while personally I’m not a Planeswalker in commander can I think he would be an excellent pilot for a more controlling, less combo oriented version of this list. He does simply accrue value quite nicely and has a high loyalty. If not your pilot, I would rather include Nissa, Vital Force in the 99, as I feel she just does more after hitting her ult and also protects herself which is dope.
The card I’m currently most excited for is a new Golgari staple, Windgrace's Judgment. Card should just go in every deck with B/G and will always do work. The fact it is an instant is silly. I’m debating which removal spell to replace - it may be personal favorite Acidic Slime due to same CMC, either him or Manglehorn which is a card I’ve grown to love.
1 month ago
SynergyBuild, thanks for your comment and suggestions!
I built this deck a long time ago and did some changes recently. About your suggestions, I totally forgot the Birds of Paradise and, of course, it is a good addition (entering in the battlefield early in the game, blocking flyers and maybe winning games with some Kessig Wolf Run effect).
About Manglehorn, I think this worth a test at least. I don't know if the "artifacts enter the battlefield tapped" effect is more relevant than the versatility of destroying artifacts when I want to (with Thrashing Brontodon) or destroying enchantments (with Reclamation Sage). My meta isn't too competitive, I don't have to worry with Mox Diamond and these kind of cards.
About the 1-CMC-mana dorks, I also have doubts. Would you suggest cards to remove from the deck for the inclusion of those dorks? I don't have any idea of what to remove to consider these inclusions.
About Primordial Sage, unless I'm forgetting a shenanigan with it, I think Soul of the Harvest is better, having more power and toughness than Sage and being an Elemental, which benefits Omnath, Locus of Rage.
For Elvish Piper, considering that I included the Eldrazis recently and it can surprise the opponents cheating creatures in the battlefield in Instant-speed, maybe it worth the slot, but I still think that Elvish Piper is too much slow, given that the deck don't give haste frequently to my creatures.