Regarding Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker. I run shirei, would definitely rate her as tier 3. It's not necessarily true that the deck needs to be commander centric. If you build Shadowborn Apostle combo, then who cares if they come back at all? My deck in that vein runs a lot of mass reanimator and runs shirei for the occasional combo or some "maybe, who cares" resilience for apostles.

In my real Shirei deck, I can get shut down so often, even with a pretty solid stax strategy. I built my best version of Shirei as stax precisely because it is impossible to set up a winning board state in the early game. You need your mana to get shirei into play, to get creatures into play, and to get a sacrifice outlet into play before the real power of the engine makes an impact on the game. That being said, the simplest of hate cards (Scavenging Ooze, Containment Priest, Grafdigger's Cage), a single well placed Counterspell, or any form of removal for shirei that gets around equipment / aura protection (Cyclonic Rift, Devastation Tide, Merciless Eviction, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (w/o Champion's Helm)) can set you back by multiple turns. Any kind of color hate is very difficult to deal with, even running lots of colorless removal that is available.

Tier 3. Good commander, a lot of fun, completely wrecked by real decks. Please check out my decks if you don't believe that I am building Shirei correctly.

I appreciate this list and discussion very much

I would make the argument that Daretti is tier one considering it can often create unbeatable situations as early as turn four and it often beats other tier one generals.

@Squirrel_of_War Tier 5 was already the "unplayable" tier. Adding a sixth tier was completely unnecessary.

@Illumfolly I later came to realize the same points you just brought up yourself--he's certainly not tier two material, upon reconsideration.

@Alexyoung I have no particular experience with him myself, but I do hear many rumors about how powerful he can be. Nonetheless, I'll stay neutral on this one.

@Yavimaya_Eldred Tier 6 exists as a way to be logically capable of splitting tier three up into an upper half and lower half without them simply being one tier. The old tier four should now be tier five, the lower half of tier three should now be tier four, the old tier five should now be tier six, and the upper half of tier three should be the actual tier three. Hardly 'completely unnecessary', considering the clutter of the current tier three. The true issue now lies in determining just where each commander of said tier now properly belongs.

@ yavimaya_eldred. Absolutely right. Sadly, the addition of a sixth tier was not discussed. It was simply implemented. We're stuck with it until Gigi decides to remove it.

I disagree. Darigaaz, the Igniter sucks but he is tier 5. Something like Barktooth Warbeard is tier 6, unplayable. I like to see the separation of these types of commanders.

@Squirrel_of_War Garbage is garbage, it shouldn't matter if something is slightly less garbage than something else. Tiers 1-4 are the cards that are playable, Tier 5 is stuff you just shouldn't ever consider whether it has a text box or not. Is Darigaaz better than Lady Orca? Sure, but why does that matter? You shouldn't run it under any circumstance. The other tiers don't have that problem. Angus Mackenzie is lower in power level than Derevi, Emperial Tactician, but you can at least debate why you'd rather play an Angus style deck since it's still a fine card on its own and asks something different of you than Derevi does. Tier five cards don't belong in such arguments, since they're just so bad that you can't make a legitimate argument to run them.

@NoOneOfConsequence There was a way to clean up tier three without adding another tier. Setting aside that tier three is likely to be crowded anyway since that's where the average cards are going to end up, discussion is a better way to deal with it than adding more sections. Morinfen and The Lady of the Mountain being in different tiers just because one has a text box and the other doesn't is just silly.

Assuming that Tier Six is here to stay, I think that Haakon, Stromgald Scourge should be moved there. With exactly one card that makes him work, he is essentially unplayable.

So looking through Tier 5 I feel like Brothers Yamazaki, Chisei, Heart of Oceans, Daughter of Autumn, Phage the Untouchable and Yukora, the Prisoner should all be moved to tier 6. My basis for saying this is that their abilities are not possible to activate like Yamazaki or they are actually detrimental to play like Yukora (a one sided wrath to you?)... Or Phage, there's only one card to get her out of the command zone that I know of, otherwise you can even cast her.

Also, Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker should be moved to tier 4. He's not amazing but he's not unplayable either. Mill is a very difficult strategy in commander to execute but his ability is way more powerful than other mill commanders like Szadek, Lord of Secrets (simply because szadek will get removed immediately if he gets big) but less so than Oona, Queen of the Fae.

You know, I would like to note that you can cheat Phage's ETB trigger with things such as Sundial of the Infinite, Torpor Orb, Platinum Angel, and so on. Command Beacon is just one more card to add to this list. She's not unplayable, but she's still incredibly gimmicky.

You can even Withering Boon her, then choose to let her go to your graveyard for a Disentomb. Again, gimmicky, and pretty stupid, but not undoable.

Like Phage, Chisei has weird interactions that can make it not the worst. Cumalative upkeep costs, Dark Depths-type stuff, etc. There's a fair amount of stuff where removing counters is a benefit.

Having said that, the card is still pretty bad.

Also I feel like Tajic, Blade of the Legion doesn't deserve to be a tier 4 general. Every time I have ever faced him, he's fast and difficult to deal with. Definitely not a tier 2 general but I feel like tier 3 is fair. White removal and blue bounce are the only consistent ways to deal with him and in optimized builds its not hard to have 2 other creatures on the field. I mean having an indestructible general is great, and Jokulhaups/Worldslayer with him in play is just game over.

I would agree with Irisfibers concerning Tajic--if tiers three and four now represent the upper and lower halves of the original tier three, respectively, then tajic deserves to be in the higher of the two. Yes, yes, him and the strategy that he headlines are inherent 'card disadvantage', lacking efficient ramp, tutoring, and card draw, and can't 'block a hermit druid combo!' as SleazeBag would put it, but he stills provides a consistent and resilient aggro clock that performs well at more casual levels.

I nominate Prossh to come down a tier. He's really strong but his CMC needed the Partial Paris to have explosive starts.

Tajic, I feel is fine in Tier 4. Aurelia and Gisela are much better R/W Generals than Tajic. He doesn't play well without a few other creatures and has no Evasion(For Combat damage to get through). Aurelia and Gisela play BETTER with other creatures but don't necessarily need them, they're perfectly fine carrying a sword or two. Tajic, I'm afraid doesn't have the same quality

Aurelia and Gisela are high-costed and they both have a creature type that has very little support. Tajic is only 4cmc, and he's a soldier. I'd say that last part alone gives him a significant advantage. On the other hand, Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas is arguably generally better than Tajic for soldier tribal. (also better for Voltron

@Jazzyboy I disagree Kalemne would be better.. Perhaps equal due to his abilities but he's waaay easier to remove which is my main reason for suggesting Tajic. You can destroy everything else on the board and he's still there to win (even if his bonus doesn't go off). Indestructible generals are brutal...

@Lorderos23 I think Tajic is up there with Aurelia/Gisela. No he doesn't have their abilities (which are awesome) but he can be dropped turn two with a first turn sol ring and most black/green/red removal doesn't touch him because they're all damage/destroy effects. Yes the other two have evasion but they can be dropped by any color's removal. Also, there are plenty of haste creatures/effects that are one or two drops in red which means that third turn you can drop two haste creatures and start swinging for 7 general damage. Seven general damage on turn 3 is difficult to shrug off.

I've faced this deck in two different "optimized" builds (tokens/destroy everything else on the board) and he's really hard to deal with unless you are in white or blue.

It seems there's still quite a bit of contention over the 5 Tier vs 6 Tier systems. I think it's best if we vote on it, since the it will heavily influence things going forward.

I personally vote to keep the 5 Tier system. 5 Tiers is more than enough, giving ample room to differentiate between amazing, good, mediocre, bad, and garbage. It does not have any perceivable disadvantages to a six tier system, aside from a slightly oversized Tier 3 (which can be efficiently dealt with by raising the minimum threshold for a card to be Tier 3). Meanwhile, adding a sixth tier forces us to completely reevaluate every since card currently in Tier 3 or below, a massive undertaking that simply is not feasible this late in the developement process. Adding an additional tier would effectively undo half of all the work that has been accomplished thus far.

Please reply with your vote, and perhaps a brief paragraph stating why.

I vote to revert back to a 5 tier system. I feel that there was a place for everything, and we were almost there in working out where that place was.

I like the 6 Tier personally...

I think its more descriptive and it helps alleviate the issues between thinking about competitive commanders vs casual commanders. All the competitive commanders are pretty much in a league of their own and they fit in the top two tiers.

There is also seems to be two general power levels in the context of casual commanders. Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Karlov of the Ghost Council and Kokusho, the Evening Star are significantly more powerful than other cards sitting in the 3rd/4th tier. The casual level seems to be creatures that seem interesting/fun to build a deck around though knowing they will probably be average.

The 5th and 6th Tiers are varying levels of terrible. But there is a very clear difference between Szadek, Lord of Secrets (who is not great as a commander as he's expensive and will be shot down before he can make a difference) and Jedit Ojanen who is a 7 CMC, vanilla commander.

Do we need a vanilla tier though? I think we can understand that bad is bad.

For the record:

I did not suggest Tier 6 as the "vanilla tier," I suggested it as the unplayable tier.

There are a TON of commanders currently in Tier 5 that I think should be moved down; I've just been keeping quiet about because thegigibeast seemed busy.

Maybe that makes you a little more open to the idea?

And reevaluating Tiers 3 through 6 is way easier than you would think. Differences amongst low power levels are much easier to spot that the subtleties of competitive play in Tiers 1 and 2. I can do it in like, the next 3 hours. Watch:

Almost got it in three hours, I'm only like 20 minutes late.

Assuming a 6 tier system:

To be moved from T5 to T6: (Rationale: french-vanilla, overcosted with no pay-off, or just vitually no effect on the game.)

Akuta, Born of Ash, Anthousa, Setessan Hero, Baron Sengir, Bartel Runeaxe, Boris Devilboon, Cho-Manno, Revolutionary, Arcades Sabboth, Atogatog, Chromium, Circu, Dimir Lobotomist, Cloudhoof Kirin, Commander Greven il-Vec, Crovax the Cursed, Dakkon Blackblade, Daughter of Autumn, Gabriel Angelfire, Gallowbraid, Gosta Dirk, Grandmother Sengir, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Halfdane, Hazduhr the Abbot, Hivis of the Scale, Huang Zhong, Shu General, Hunding Gjornersen, Ihsan's Shade, Irini Sengir, Ishi-Ishi, Akki Crackshot, Iwamori of the Open Fist, Jacques le Vert, Kei Takahashi, Kentaro, the Smiling Cat, Lady Caleria, Liu Bei, Lord of Shu, Livonya Silone, Lord Magnus, Ma Chao, Western Warrior, Marhault Elsdragon, Morinfen, Myojin of Cleansing Fire, Myojin of Life's Web, Orim, Samite Healer, Palladia-Mors, Pang Tong, "Young Phoenix", Pavel Maliki, Princess Lucrezia, Purraj of Urborg, Rashida Scalebane, Rashka the Slayer, Reveka, Wizard Savant, Riven Turnbull, Rohgahh of Kher Keep, Shimatsu the Bloodcloaked, Sima Yi, Wei Field Marshal, Soraya the Falconer, Spirit of the Night, Stangg, Taniwha, Tarox Bladewing, Telim'Tor, Tuknir Deathlock, Tuktuk the Explorer, Ur-Drago, Vaevictis Asmadi, Veldrane of Sengir, Xun Yu, Wei Advisor, Yukora, the Prisoner, Zhang Liao, Hero of Hefei, Zhao Zilong, Tiger General, Zhou Yu, Chief Commander, Zuberi, Golden Feather.

(I left out Ramirez DePietro because I just didn't have the heart to be the one to demote him. I mean, come on, he's a pirate. Pirates should get their own tier...)

Moved from T4 to T5: (Rationale: mediocre voltron stats w/ limited defensive or evasion abilities, effects that don't have a strong effect on the game.)

Arashi, the Sky Asunder, Adamaro, First to Desire, Alexi, Zephyr Mage, Atalya, Samite Master, Autumn Willow, Ayumi, the Last Visitor, Balthor the Stout, Bounteous Kirin, Cabal Patriarch, Cao Ren, Wei Commander, Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh  ^Flip, Commander Eesha, Daghatar the Adamant, Diaochan, Artful Beauty, Dong Zhou, the Tyrant, Eron the Relentless, Fumiko the Lowblood, Geist of Saint Traft, Gerrard Capashen, Ghost Council of Orzhova, He Who Hungers, Heidar, Rimewind Master, Higure, the Still Wind, Iizuka the Ruthless, Iname as One, Iname, Life Aspect, Isao, Enlightened Bushi, Infernal Kirin, Jareth, Leonine Titan, Jedit Ojanen of Efrava, Jiwari, the Earth Aflame, Kamahl, Pit Fighter, Karona, False God, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Kaysa, Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, Kiyomaro, First to Stand, Kiku, Night's Flower, Kodama of the North Tree, Kumano, Master Yamabushi, Korlash, Heir to Blackblade, Kuon, Ogre Ascendant, Lady Evangela, Lady Sun, Latulla, Keldon Overseer, Linessa, Zephyr Mage, Llawan, Cephalid Empress, Lovisa Coldeyes, Masako the Humorless, Masumaro, First to Live, Munda, Ambush Leader, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Oyobi, Who Split the Heavens, Oriss, Samite Guardian, Pianna, Nomad Captain, Pharika, God of Affliction, Polukranos, World Eater, Radiant, Archangel, Ragnar, Rakdos the Defiler, Rayne, Academy Chancellor, Rorix Bladewing, Ruhan of the Fomori, Sensei Golden-Tail, Shauku, Endbringer, Shisato, Whispering Hunter, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Sosuke, Son of Seshiro, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Starke of Rath, Sun Ce, Young Conquerer, Sunastian Falconer, Tahngarth, Talruum Hero, Tajic, Blade of the Legion, Takeno, Samurai General, Thriss, Nantuko Primus, Tymaret, the Murder King, Vhati il-Dal, Vorosh, the Hunter, Zhang Fei, Fierce Warrior, Zurgo Bellstriker.

Moved from T4 to T6: (Rationale: a combination of the last two. These guys really didn't belong in T4 in the first place.)

Guan Yu, Sainted Warrior, Hakim, Loreweaver, Hikari, Twilight Guardian, Kodama of the Center Tree, Kuro, Pitlord, Kongming, "Sleeping Dragon", Maga, Traitor to Mortals, Mannichi, the Fevered Dream, Meng Huo, Barbarian King, Nagao, Bound by Honor, Obzedat, Ghost Council, Patron of the Nezumi, Patron of the Kitsune, Tivadar of Thorn, Zhang He, Wei General, Zuo Ci, the Mocking Sage.

Moved from T3 to T4: (Rationale: Just basing this off of my experience with the commanders and the synergies available to them. Trying to split into Good Tier and Average Tier. Priorities for Good Tier: commanders that have built in methods of dodging removal and disruption (e.g. Thrun, the Last Troll), and commanders who's strategies quick swing the board out of proportion if left unchecked (e.g. Rakdos, Lord of Riots).)

Adun Oakenshield, Akroma, Angel of Fury, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, Angus Mackenzie, Anowon, the Ruin Sage, Athreos, God of Passage, Balthor the Defiled, Baru, Fist of Krosa, Borborygmos Enraged, Bosh, Iron Golem, Crovax, Ascendant Hero, Dragonlord Atarka, Dragonlord Dromoka, Dragonlord Silumgar, Dralnu, Lich Lord, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, Erebos, God of the Dead, Ertai, Wizard Adept, Feldon of the Third Path, Gahiji, Honored One, Garza Zol, Plague Queen, Godo, Bandit Warlord, Heliod, God of the Sun, Homura, Human Ascendant, Iname, Death Aspect, Isperia, Supreme Judge, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip, Jenara, Asura of War, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Jolrael, Empress of Beasts, Jori En, Ruin Diver, Kaervek the Merciless, Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, Kaseto, Orochi Archmage, Keranos, God of Storms, Kodama of the South Tree, Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury, Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, Kozilek, the Great Distortion, Kresh the Bloodbraided, Lavinia of the Tenth, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Liliana, Heretical Healer  ^Flip, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Mangara of Corondor, Marrow-Gnawer, Mayael the Anima, Mirri the Cursed, Mogis, God of Slaughter, Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer, Nahiri, the Lithomancer, Nin, the Pain Artist, Nissa, Vastwood Seer  ^Flip, Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, Norin the Wary, Nylea, God of the Hunt, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, Olivia Voldaren, Patron of the Akki, Patron of the Orochi, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Radha, Heir to Keld, Reki, the History of Kamigawa, Sapling of Colfenor, Skullbriar, the Walking Grave, Surrak Dragonclaw, Surrak, the Hunt Caller, Sygg, River Cutthroat, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thraximundar, Thromok the Insatiable, Toshiro Umezawa, Trostani, Selesnya's Voice, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, Urabrask the Hidden, Varolz, the Scar-Striped, Vendilion Clique, Venser, Shaper Savant, Visara the Dreadful, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Wrexial, the Risen Deep, Xira Arien, Yasova Dragonclaw, Yeva, Nature's Herald, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Zada, Hedron Grinder, Zo-Zu the Punisher, Zurgo Helmsmasher.

Sorry for the lack of spoilers. They don't seem to work on my browser, and I don't want to just type in code and hope for the best.

Hello there,I recently came across a Facebook page called Top Commanders of EDH where they have their own tier list. They have a number of Commanders that they list as top tier that aren't tier 1 in this page. For example, they list roon of the hidden realm as a top tier lockdown commander. What are the thoughts about this page? It seems pretty legitimate except for the tier list in my opinion. I can't see how they list roon over Brago who is way less mana intensive and can blink more than one permanent a turn.

Ultimately, I concur with your classifications, Sonnet666, but I find some of the particulars of your choices thereof to be somewhat less agreeable.

Now, there's a fair amount of discussion to be had here, but I'll start off with this: Zada, Hedron Grinder should stay exactly where she is.

Simply put, being able to repeatedly cast Collective Unconscious with cheap, efficient cantrips such as Expedite and Crimson Wisps is quite ludicrously powerful, solving red's card draw issues in one fell swoop, and allowing for some very powerful combo deck potential for that very reason--you know, Kiki-Jiki/Zealous Conscripts or Dualcaster Mage/Twinflame. Plus, thanks to spells such as Balduvian Rage and Reckless Charge, such as deck would still have a strong plan B in aggro. Radiate on a stick is something you can bust wide open, as I hope you've realized.