|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2019 (C19)||Common|
|Commander 2013 (C13)||Common|
|Shards of Alara (ALA)||Common|
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: Gain .
, , Sacrifice Naya Panorama: Search your library for a basic Mountain, Forest, or Plains card and put it into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Naya Panorama Discussion
1 week ago
Tzefick: I read through the original post, but I want to circle back to it later. And you will have to excuse the order in general, I was responding to this across the course of a day.
On artifact removal
There are a few points to unpack here. The first, and most importantly, is that removal is a big part of Magic, the Gathering and honestly, is what makes games (and deckbuilding) interesting. IF MtG was just about amassing board states and then slamming big creatures into other big creatures, the game would be much more boring (not to mention take much longer). But your argument here basically boils down to "artifacts are bad because they die to removal". I get that there are a bunch of good artifact removal cards, but that doesn't mean that we should stop leaning into artifacts because of it.
As for dealing with removal (especially mass removal) - there are still many options that white already has access to which does actually allow them to ramp. Wayfarer's Bauble , Burnished Hart , Solemn Simulacrum , Kor Cartographer , Knight of the White Orchid are all perfectly valid land ramp cards. Sure, the average CMC of these spells is higher than their green counterparts, however green is THE ramp colour, so it would be expecteded that there would be hihger costs/more contitions to be met for other colours to do a similar thing. And that's without even touching on cards like Sword of the Animist or Explorer's Scope which are both equipment and what white excels at.
In addition to this, while not ramping, white already has access to cards like Weathered Wayfarer , Land Tax , and Tithe which allow you to consistently hit your lands. While not as good as outright ramping, if you're hitting your lands each turn, you're genereally not doing too badly. And when combined with other ramp effects, by mid to late game you still end up with as much mana as most players.
Now onto the artifacts. Yes, there are a lot of good artifact removal effects which can slow players down. But I would also point out a few things here too.
Mana dorks are a very common form of ramp in commander. Most green decks will run a bunch of them and there are even strategies (elf ball) which almost solely relies on them. But just as artifacts can be hated on, white has some of THE best creature removal in the game. This includes both single target but also mass removal, which can severely hamper your opponents with regards to ramp. And unlike green (who is the main comparison point here), white doesn't rely on mana dorks, leaving you relatively unaffected from a mana standpoint.
In addition to this, white has a lot of ways of protecting your stuff from being destroyed, whether it's indestructible, hexproof, just an outright Teferi's Protection (which yes you did mention), or more importantly shutting down an opponent's removal source using Torpor Orb effects, of which white has many. Sure, this doesn't stop everything, but it can shut down a lot of (especially green) big bad ones. We are seeing a lot of these printed in new sets, to the point where WotC are really trying to drive home the point that "this is what white does".
Ok, now circling back (And I will do this more than once) and picking up on my previous paragraph. On the topic of land ramp - white is very good at shutting down this. between all of the MLD, Balance type effects and library shutdown effects like Aven Mindcensor , white hating on green's land ramp is to green hating on artifacts (i.e. white's main ramp source). Again I reiterate, this is what white does. It has been made abundantly clear, since we have time and time again seen printing of cards that equalise the board, to take away other players' advantages. So again I push the point that white is capable, however the issue here is that it's not the way you (or some other casule commander players) want it to be. But again, that's not white's shortfall.
On Graveyard Recursion
This topic follows on from the whole artifact removal thing. Yes, white is very strong in graveyard recursion. And just to touch on one of your points, even recently white got a bunch of graveyard recursion via cards like Daring Archaeologist and Restoration Specialist . Not repeatable sure, but still decent. And let's face it, any mono-white commander product is going to see Sun Titan reprinted. But back to the whole recusrion thing in general - while white is good at recursion, it's permanent based, not specifically land based. Yes, this overlaps (especially in the case of Sun Titan ) but here it's just a bit of nice value.
Land recursion is very much a green thing (I'm not even going to list the cards) and that makes sense. But for white, the recursion is generally symmetric if en masse. And again, this makes sense. White is good at wrecking stuff, so it's also good at bringing stuff back. But the point is that just because you wreck stuff and bring it back symmetrically doesn't mean that you can't exile a graveyard or two in the middle. Ok, but what's my concern with what you're recommending (both across the board but let's talk specifics)?
So, fundamentally I have no issues with the release of white cards which can return permanents from the graveyard to the battlefield, and fundamentally I have no issues with pairing these cards with any kind of fetchlands to ramp. As you mentioned, we have the new Sevinne's Reclamation and Brought Back alongside Sun Titan and Profound Journey .
Where I have issue in this case is not with the concept of having a cheaper spell that hits smaller stuff, but in this case your suggestion. Unforntunately, ther is a fine line between being able to be used early game for ramp purposes and just being broken. The card you proposed is similar in effect to Unearth , though it being able to hit any permanent for 2 mana (yes, even CMC 2 or less) is super good. That means that in legacy it can hit cards like Young Pyromancer , Snapcaster Mage (to get other spells even at sorcery, like itself for example), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Wasteland , etc. as well as potentially getting another permanent too. It just seems way too powerful. Sure, we could start tweaking the mana costs/effects but I think you would end up with effectively a functional reprint of Sevinne's Reclamation . And look, if that's what you're going for then that's fine. But that's the danger with working under the guise of returning permanents while focusing on lands.
As for the land sepcific recursion effect though, this just seems out of charater (and heavily moving into green's territory). Just because one card was printed, which again did a symmetric effect (almost seems good with Armageddon + Tormod's Crypt ...) does not mean that it's a shoo-in for more cards to be printed like that. Planar Birth was printed inthe same set as Catastrophe and it seems like those cards were designed to play well with each other. As for hitting land drops each turn, I have no issues with this (hell, I even mentioend it before) and to aid in the available "non-good fetch" fetches, you have Terramorphic Expanse , Evolving Wilds , Myriad Landscape , Grasslands , Flood Plain , Bant Panorama , Esper Panorama , Naya Panorama , Warped Landscape , Terminal Moraine and Thawing Glaciers . That's a pretty good collection of budget fetch effects that already exist. And between Scaretiller , Sun Titan , Sevinne's Reclamation and Crucible of Worlds (and in conjuction with other ramp) there are already options there.
Again, I will double down on my argument that if you look, these cards already exist and can be made to work together in a deck. Yes, Crucible of Worlds has ~$25 USD price tag (at the time of writing this) however that is not too exorbitant for a strong EDH card.
On Other Colours
I get that each colour has its strengths and weaknesses and that when you put all of them alongside each other there will always be a worst colour. But I don't think that's a bad thing. White is an incredibly powerful colour outside of commander, and as a second colour, white is still super good. But mono-white has to have a weakness. In this case, it's slow. Buat again, that's done for a reason - because white represents balance. White might be slow, but it will do a really good job of slowing you down with it. And again, I get that ther will be a group of players who don't want to play all of the stax cards for fear of getting other poeple's backs up. But what about the players who don't care about that? you've now just armed a bunch of people with ramp and draw with their existing supply of stax. Think of how much worse that will be.
Now onto red (since you touched on it) - yes, WotC have come up with a nice balance for red's card advantage (in that it matches red's ramp style) - momentary bursts of value. Rituals and exile - you use it or you lose it kind of effects, which makes sense (and which you pointed out). But it's all done within the bounds of the colour pie still. But everything about white screams that it's card advantage is making sure your opponents don't have cards.
While I believe that commander should be avaialble to anyone, there are some cold, hard facts: Some people can spend more than others, and, not everybody within a playgroup has the same budget.
The cards I listed before were budgetless and in most cases, the best of the best. And I understand that only a small portion of commander players actually own said cards. But there are always alternative cards at all budgets, they just may not be as desirable. But that's where my double standard comment came in, which is "if you want to play a colour that doens't have good ramp, but still want the best ramp then either pay the money to buy the good (read "expensive") stuff or deal with the fact that you can't/won't buy it." I don't think that's an unfair statement, and it's a slippery slope once you start pandering to it.
But again, if ther is a budget discrepency within a playgroup then I also don't think that it is WotC's responsiblity to fix it. This is something that the players have to own and is an entire discussion point in an of itself, so I will leave that there. But I think most players would agree with me on this.
On Other Players
Here's where we get to brass tacks (if we haven't already), I wouldn't agree with you on the comment that "a large portion of the commander community" thinks that mono-white needs fixing. Ther eare some poeple, sure. And those people might make a lot of noise about it, but that doesn't mean it's the majority of players. I know that most players who I interact with would agree wiht my viewpoint on it.
And don't get me wrong, I play both casual and competitive lists, I work full time and have funds available to afford nicer cards. A casual list for me sits in the $400-500 range. But before you discount my opinion becasue fo that, hear me out. I have looked at many, many, many lists on tapped out, ranging from <$100 to >$5000 and have learnt a lot over the years. Typically the things I notice is that the kinds of poeple who complain about a lack of XYZ have also employed a lot of bad deck-building practices (no, I'm not implying this on your lists). Really heavy mana curves, little ramp to begin with, high CMC ramp, lack of focused win conditions, all that good stuff. And I'm not saying that the decks are completely unplayable, but a lot of them are really clunky and slow. And I won't begrudge people for building those decks. But if your average CMC is 4.5 and then you're complaining that your deck is slow, that's becasue of the card choices you made. However bad deckbuilding is not WotC's fault.
So compared to those poeple, I will be a bit arrogant and say I undstand balance better than them, yes. But, and more importantly, so does WotC - because they seem to be printing more stax cards for white as sets come out, but not more ramp and card advantage which would fix the non-problem.
2 weeks ago
Hey, saw you're forum topic asking for help.
You have 21 deck spots left which should all go toward lands. You have $50 left in your budget which is plenty to finish a playable manabase with some left over. I see Farseek , but there's currently not a dual land that it can search for. You could add Temple Garden , Stomping Ground and Sacred Foundry , Farseek can search for one of these Shocks lands. Another direction that's less expensive is Canopy Vista , Cinder Glade and Sacred Foundry . The Battle lands like the Shock lands can be searched for with Farseek. Of course the better option would be to include all these lands.
Here's a land package to consider for $40:
- Exotic Orchard
- Ash Barrens
- Naya Panorama
- Contested Cliffs : Uril is a Beast.
- Battlefield Forge
- Canopy Vista
- Cinder Glade
- Sacred Foundry
- Stomping Ground
- Temple Garden
- Fortified Village
- Game Trail
Round out the rest of the manabase with basic lands.
As far as optimizing on a budget then Argothian Enchantress and Path to Exile combine for $20 which I think I can be better used because there's plenty of less expensive alternatives especially Enchantresses. Sterling Grove for example gives you something that's better than Argothian, an enchantment tutor that also protects from target removal for all your other enchantments. Sterling is an enchantment, it has other interactions in your deck which is really good for a tutor. Path is fine, but is less needed when you have Swords to Plowshares . Sigarda's Aid gives you something that your deck doesn't have, flash for auras.
Other cards to consider adding:
- Sterling Grove
- Sigarda's Aid
- Eladamri's Call
- Wild Growth
- Trace of Abundance
- Fertile Ground
- Enchantress's Presence
- Satyr Enchanter
- Nature's Lore : search for a Forest dual land (Garden, Ground, Vista, Glade)
- Beast Within
- Fellwar Stone
Cards to consider cutting:
- Argothian Enchantress
- Path to Exile
- Kodama's Reach
- Rampant Growth
- Faith Unbroken
- Vow of Wildness
- Scourge of the Nobilis
- Boros Signet
- Gruul Signet
- Selesnya Signet
Because of the Enchantresses I think land auras are better here than Signets and many land ramp spells that can only get basic lands. Good luck with your deck.
3 weeks ago
Hey, Eladamri's Call is one of the best creature tutors in Commander and it's budget. It could replace Gaea's Touch . Command Tower is one of the best lands for multicolored decks. It could replace Selesnya Guildgate or comparable price Sungrass Prairie . King of the Pride is a Cat lord and it could replace Cleansing Ray .
Beast Within is a versatile instant removal spell. It could replace Consign to Dust . Metallic Mimic could be cut to clear $7+ to help the manabase. Sunpetal Grove , Ash Barrens , Naya Panorama , Fortified Village , Scattered Groves , Rogue's Passage . Mimic isn't worth $7 unless you're comboing with it which you're not doing here. Good luck with your deck.
4 weeks ago
Hey, you're welcome.
With Korvold, Fae-Cursed King you may want more lands (36) because a land can be the permanent you sac to grow, attack and draw with Korvold. Fetch lands even budget ones: Evolving Wilds , Jund Panorama , Naya Panorama , Blighted Woodland are good if you add Nesting Dragon as these lands give you for more landfall. High Market is a sac outlet that's a land.
There doesn't have to be a big Dragon change with Korvold. Prossh should definitely be included in the 99. Dragon Broodmother and Nesting make a good Dragon team to fuel Korvold's sac. Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire can sac, but Prossh is also a six drop Dragon and it's much better with Korvold than Vaevictis.
There's already several Dragons here that will be good with Korvold such as Broodmother (repeatable source of tokens and sac), Prossh (sac outlet and source of tokens), Utvara (repeatable source of tokens), Lathliss (repeatable source of tokens), Boneyard (good sac target since it can reanimate itself), Bladewing (reanimate another Dragon you saced).
The biggest change will be the support that Korvold wants. Korvold as General for Dragons needs more support than Prossh, but the trade-off is an increase in power level. However, an increase in power level isn't cheap. Many support cards you want with Korvold have expensive prices especially Dockside Extortionist , but even Nesting is expensive price. If this is a problem then Korvold might not be the change you want to make, but Korvold can do more than Prossh if you have the support.
If you choose to switch then these are cards to consider cutting:
- Explosive Vegetation
- Kodama's Reach
- Rampant Growth
- Furyborn Hellkite
- Fiery Confluence
- Door of Destinies
- Dowsing Dagger
- Dragonlord's Servant
- Moldervine Reclamation
- Descent of the Dragons
- Fearsome Awakening
- Hellkite Overlord
The support you want with Korvold are repeatable sources of permanents to sac, some sac outlets and different recursion.
- Dockside Extortionist
- Awakening Zone
- Tireless Tracker
- Orcish Lumberjack
- Greater Good
- Ashnod's Altar
- High Market
- Crucible of Worlds and/or Ramunap Excavator
- Eternal Witness
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Springbloom Druid
The ramp sources could be changed and the reason to change them is if you draw them after getting Korvold onto the battlefield then they will give you more value then just ramp. Examples of potential ramp changes:
on Naya Zoo
1 month ago
1 month ago
Hi epsqm, glad to hear you're on the Tatyova side!! :)
1) The common killing line is just the combo, which you can achieve through several different lines. The most common line is to find Mystic Sanctuary and Ghostly Flicker as a start (together with Tatyova of course). From there on you only need some kind of mana acceleration like High Tide , Cloud of Faeries or Peregrine Drake and then you have infinite mana, infinite carddraw and infinite life. Finding this combo is the actual challenge of piloting this deck. Then you can finish by bouncing everyones permanents ( Capsize or Temporal Fissure ) into killing them with Adventuring Gear , yes, because your creatures also have infinite power then. I must admit that I am running a Gear-less list right now, and I am finishing through Compulsive Research :D The Gear has always been a dead card whereas Research can work as an actual card. Especially when you're trying to go off and youre only searching for the last piece of the puzzle, a card draw spell is nice to have. And even if they exile your graveyard with the Research in it, they will still lose the game if you bounce them all their permanents lol They can decide to either die fast or slowly :P It's not easy to come back without any lands, any other permanents and against a Tatyova player how could always go infinite on instant speed again ;) So basically with the combo you can lock everybody out not giving them any chance, even if you didnt have any other win con.
2) Sporemound has been in the list from my very first scratches on, and had to go as the very last part of "old, good ideas". The thing is: This deck is so fast at killing people through the combo, it actually hurts to slam down a 5drop that could be countered or removed and I would have been time walked then. Even in team games, I managed to kill with Tatyova like Turn6 even through some sort of removal and counterspells. But its really challenging, as I said. I have goldfished this list about 50 or 60 times and actually played it like 15 times. And its never boring because its so challenging to go for the right lines.
3) Relic of Progenitus has never been great for me, but I kinda do see the reason. I just feel you never really wanna play without a relic in your deck, especially if you're playing Trinket Mage nontheless. Feel free to exclude the Relic from your list, but there is other cruel combo decks out there as well. And sometimes other people wanna lock you out as well. I think I once used the Relic to break the Soulherder 's value chain, because he was blinking his Archaeomancer and always got his Counterspell back. Relic was my only way to break that lock, if I remember that game correctly. And sometimes Relic is just a bad cantrip and just fine.
4) Wormfang Newt is new to me, I have not seen this card, I will be thinking about that. Going off with Displace is super hard in this deck and Newt surely helps with that. The most difficult part is to find a slot for it. Thanks a lot for that suggestion.
5) Tilling Treefolk has been in and out. You gotta know: When I started building a Tatyova Deck, I was thinking about a great value deck with all the shenanigans. But then in the middle of the testing, Mystic Sanctuary got printed and suddenly the whole deck had the chance to become a great combo deck I noticed. So I went back to the drawing board and had to cut so many great but "just fair" cards ;) There isn't even a Mulldrifter in this deck anymore. And so even Treefolk had to go. And the Grixis Panorama and the Naya Panorama went with him.
I have about 80 cards (or more) that were in this deck, but had to go at some point.
1 month ago
Hey, nice budget upgrade of the precon. Good work in progress :)
Birds and Smothering are very good choices for expensive price upgrades. Helm is fine too because you added Aurelia and Godo to give you a combo win. Omnath at $7 is kind of out of place because not playing many ways to take advantage of sacing Elementals. Rampaging does the same thing as Omnath for less than $1 and it has trample. Armada Wurm and/or End-Raze Forerunners each less than a $1 could replace Omnath and have more impact. Hornet Queen at $2 creates some nasty tokens.
Interesting choice for the other expensive price cards: Iroas, Panharmonicon and Splinter. There's nothing wrong with these cards, but I don't think they're upgrades that a budget version of the precon needs. The $20 from these three cards could be better used for land upgrades. $20 can get you the three Check lands, one Shock land as well as some other lands and these will help your deck much more.
In my opinion the upgrades that the precon needs the most are lands, tutors and ramp. I see that you're playing pretty much the stock manabase from the precon, but there's many good lands in the maybeboard. Are you in the process of getting the lands in the maybeboard? If so my advice is make them priority for upgrades.
Some budget cards to consider adding:
- Battlefield Forge : colorless/colored mana source.
- Scattered Groves : dual land that can make white mana that Farseek can tutor for. Can be temporary until you get Temple Garden and/or Canopy Vista .
- Naya Panorama : colorless/colored mana source.
- Opal Palace : colorless/colored mana source.
- Game Trail
- Fortified Village
- Sheltered Thicket
- Eladamri's Call : one of the best creature tutors in Commander.
- Fierce Empath : creature tutor to blink.
- Open the Armory : tutor for Greaves or Helm. Having another way to tutor for Helm helps consistency of assembling the combo.
- Congregation at Dawn
- Sylvan Scrying : tutor for a colorless land source or Command Tower , etc.
- Orcish Lumberjack : can tap the Forest to make mana before you sac it meaning Lumberjack combined can make four mana which is very good for a one drop. Lumberjack and a white source can get Ghired onto the battlefield fast.
- Avacyn's Pilgrim
- Talisman of Impulse : colorless/colored mana source.
- Talisman of Unity : colorless/colored mana source.
- Talisman of Conviction : colorless/colored mana source.
- Eldrazi Displacer : with colorless mana sources blink for Ghired and other creatures. Can protect Ghired, after he attacks, triggers, blink him out of combat.
- Mirror Entity : busted with Atla Palani, Nest Tender since it can turn all your creatures into Eggs. Can activate it's ability for no mana making all your creatures 0/0s. They all die, each one cheating a creature from your library onto the battlefield. Entity is also a good card with tokens because until end of turn it can pump all your creatures/tokens to huge amounts depending on how much mana you can make.
- Ogre Battledriver : repeatable pump and haste when creating tokens. Can be a win condition with Entity and Alta giving all the creatures/tokens you cheat onto the battlefield haste. Casting Ghired after getting Battledriver onto the battlefield can give an opponent a beating with haste; doing a combined 16 damage with Ghired and two 4/4 Rhinos.
- Armada Wurm : creates a token with trample, good with blink. 10 power of trample for 6 mana.
- Hornet Queen : creates nasty flying tokens, good with blink.
Cards to consider cutting:
- Rugged Highlands
- Blossoming Sands
- Graypelt Refuge
- Kazandu Refuge
- Myriad Landscape
- Sungrass Prairie
- Emmara Tandris
- Doomed Artisan
- Full Flowering
- Ghired's Belligerence
- Slice in Twain
- Aura Mutation
- Growing Ranks
- Flameshadow Conjuring
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Splinter Twin
- Iroas, God of Victory
If you like some of these suggestions I offer more advice about these potential additions and the cards I'm suggesting to cut. Good luck with your deck.
1 month ago
the manabase is very slow, all your duals come in tapped. I'm not a fan of that fact, but hey, it is budget, so good job making it competitive for 50 bucks. I guess what I'm trying to say is, for people willing to spend a bit more money on this, upgrading the mana base is what I would do first. get rid of all the guild gates and the life lands or what ever their called and get shock lands. upgrade the warped land scape and evolving wilds into fetch lands instead. the only lands I would keep that come in tapped are the bounce lands. Selesnya Sanctuary , Gruul Turf , Boros Garrison , Jungle Shrine , Rogue's Passage , Skarrg, the Rage Pits , Contested Cliffs and the basics are what I would keep, dump the rest for better things. This is of course only aimed at people that can afford it. Sacred Foundry for example is dirt cheap for a shock land. the others aren't expensive either. So for People that can afford them, I recommend: Sacred Foundry , Stomping Ground , Wooded Foothills , Windswept Heath , Bloodstained Mire , Prismatic Vista , Naya Panorama & Bant Panorama . These last 2 are dirt cheap, tap for a colorless and can fetch you all and 2 of your dominating colors in your deck. But if you really wanna splash the cast, replace those 2 with Arid Mesa & either: Marsh Flats for a white fetch, Scalding Tarn for a red fetch or Misty Rainforest / Misty Rainforest for a green fetch. looking at the card cost in the deck I would go for white and green for the last 2 slots, but these last lands I mentioned cost a fortune, we are talking upwards of a 100 $ a piece. Arid mesa is the cheapest @ 50 bucks I think. So my personal suggestion is to go with my original idea and go for the tri colored fetch lands (the panorama lands).
Naya Panorama occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.03%