Force of Negation
If it's not your turn, you may exile a blue card from your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Counter target noncreature spell. If that spell is countered this way, exile it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard.
|Want (4)||Ender666666 , , Rinan , aalsasa1|
Printings View all
|Modern Horizons (MH1)||Rare|
Combos Browse all
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Force of Negation Discussion
2 weeks ago
Not sure if you are still updating this deck... I've changed mine quite a bit over time, but mostly because I can go outside of Modern. But anyways, I recently added two Mystic Sanctuary to my version Ice Up Son!. It works awesome with Deprive. I also added Force of Negation; although, Force isn't really budget. This has become one of my favorite decks, especially when I play 1 v 1, it's so frustrating to face.
1 month ago
TypicalTimmy I kinda feel like you gave up on balancing this Timmy creation.
It's a 4 color Planeswalker, true, but is only 5 CMC. It starts with 5 loyalty, which is fair considering the previous.
The +2 is acceptable but is in a rather good state, as +2 is strong on the defensive side and the ability is not bad if you build for it.
The +1 is too strong as is. You get to turn any permanent (preferably of higher CMC) into a "tutor" for any other permanent. And you do it as a positive loyalty ability. It's basically Birthing Pod-esque but for any permanent type. This should really be a negative loyalty ability, like -2 or -3.
The -4 is completely unacceptable. I don't know if it is omission by accident or purpose, but the lack of target makes this a triple Council's Judgment without the voting, and that in itself is almost ultimate worthy. That you can do it from the start and the PW still lives is just bonkers! Even if it was meant to say target, a triple Oblation without the drawback (AND the ability to target lands!) is insane value and one of the best removal options in the game next to exile.
If you cast this on turn 4 (given you're green and likely can ramp just a tiny bit with mana fixing to make sure you get all 4 colors in time), you drop this 5 CMC and tug away 3 of your opponent's lands... What are they supposed to do? If they cannot counter the PW and hope the caster cannot counter it back with a Force of Negation or similar, they basically lost the game. It's way too swingy an ability and need to be restricted to nonlands, cost more (loyalty), be unavailable at start, and/or have less targets.
The -9 seems like a fool in disguise. Granted, most cannot bounce lands very easily, so you're at least a bit protected, but it would seem like you could put yourself at a major disadvantage. The best way to take advantage of this would be if you had Omniscience on the board, so you can effectively dump your newly acquired hand to secure the win.
The logistic part of the ultimate seems to be its biggest strike. Making tokens for every permanent you have would seem like a major memory issue.
1 month ago
There aren't a lot of straightforward replacements some of the cards here (particularly time walk) and some might be a little worse and you'll definitely lose some of the synergy, but that doesn't mean we can't keep the game plan. Also this is for the modern format (what used to be extended) and not the current standard. That being said:
- Horseshoe Crab/Thieving Magpie - Still modern legal/Surge Mare also works.
- Thornwind Faeries - Prodigal Sorcerer.
- Raven Familiar - Augury Owl/Sea Gate Oracle.
- Rayne - No functional replacement that affects all your creatures/Monastery Siege might be able to serve a similar purpose of making it harder to target your permanents rather than discourage your opponent from targeting.
- Curiosity - Still modern legal
- Hermetic Study - Viridian Longbow/Sorcerer's Wand, though not an enchantment, it functions the same way.
- Soothsaying - Descendant of Soramaro
- Sigil of Sleep - No functional replacement, Gorgon Flail/Basilisk Collar might be a nice alternative here.
Counterspells. This one is a bit tricky as they moved away from the classic Counterspell and there's a lot of variety here and counters have changed a lot. So I'm just going to recommend a few to consider:
- Quash and Rewind are still modern legal
- Also Lullmage Mentor can be a pretty good finisher/cornerstone of a counter deck
- Saheeli, Sublime Artificer/Talrand, Sky Summoner can also add some nice value to play counterspells.
Well, that took a bit of time, but I hope this helps.
1 month ago
I'll cede the Nevermore point to you, the commander does indeed slip through it and yes I also know the card isn't played. The larger overall point though is that at any table you only have control over 100 of the 400 cards that see play and being vulnerable to a single card that shuts down your entire strategy is a liability. Especially when you play paper, people don't have 100% powered lists and often substitute hoser or situational cards. Regardless, the deck is still 100% dependent on the commander sticking on the table, and its practically your only source of card advantage. Any deck that handles the commander easily is going to shit all over your pile of 99. Replace Nevermore with Lignify or Kenrith's Transformation or Darksteel Mutation or Song of the Dryads or Imprisoned in the Moon and you have the exact same problem, your deck is shut off when your commander is handled. Rather than engage the actual logic of what I'm saying, you and your buddies are getting caught up on specific cards instead of overall types of interaction.
This deck crumples if it can't get commander triggers. That is the point I've been making. Stop misconstruing it.
You'll notice how when I talked about alternate costs, I even said you don't cast it for the regular CMC normally. I did say that in some situations, especially in grindier games, you may find yourself in a position where you end up casting the actual CMC of cards like Force of Negation as you don't wish to -1 card advantage your hand and you're packing the mana. Once again, why do you ask me if I'm reading your primer when you aren't reading my replies?
Yeah its neat that misdirection handles spells, I never said it didn't. I said it doesn't handle the 3 most important spells resolving in the format right now. I am well aware how it interacts with uncounterable cards. Once again, are you reading what I'm writing? Losing a permanent to Abrupt Decay sucks but losing the game to Tainted Pact is 100% worse. This is extremely easy comparative logic for anyone who is trying to win games.
I never spoke badly about Dark Ritual except to note its a consumable piece of mana, and doesn't help you in creating turn loops. I have no problem with its inclusion.
You must be seriously new if you don't understand that when I say Pyroclasm and variants, I'm talking about cards besides simply Pyroclasm. Every time I've mentioned it I've talked about pyroclasm effects, I'm talking about Anger of the Gods Earthquake Toxic Deluge Rolling Earthquake Fiery Confluence Sweltering Suns Fire Covenant Sudden Demise and Subterranean Tremors. There are also all kinds of "Destroy all creatures" effects that I didn't list. Yes, I am highly aware that 2 damage from pyroclasm doesn't kill Yuriko, but it sets back your board state, and all the other pyroclasm VARIANTS do kill Yuriko. This strategy is also seen in decks like Ruric Thar or Keranos. Its more usually seen in tier 2 decks that are able to engage the meta due to how creature heavy the current meta is. Being proud for playing cedh but only playing against 6 different decks doesn't really give you a huge representation of the viable decks in the format. It means you're still new. Yes its good to be aware of the tier 1 decks and the commonly played decks, but if you're running into more fringe decks that are able to leverage these kinds of cards against you, your deck is going to lose in more places than it should. Especially since many tier 1 partner decks are able to utilize these creature blow out cards with things specifically like Sudden Demise.
This leads into Xantcha being a competitive deck. It is 100% a competitive deck, there are decks besides Flash Hulk you need to be aware of. Especially in the current creature heavy meta, continuously blowing out the board turns your Pyroclasm effects into 3-for-1 or 4-for-1 trades to keep ahead of Blue and Green decks. It isn't a tier 1 deck, but if you play cedh you'll run into this deck or another deck that trades specifically on big creature hate. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/xantcha-combo-control/
Similarly, you'll run into a planeswalker commander like Animatou that is able to run big creature hate effects like Humility that once again, completely blow this deck apart.
I am not friends with SolelySelesnya and I don't know him personally or online. I just find these lists haven't explored new territory with Yuriko.
You guys can spend all day saying I'm rude until you're blue in the face, but I made a simple comment on both lists asking why they didn't run a specific card. Rather than respond, or tag me, or answer me, they deleted the comment and wrote a note about it that I received no notification for, and had to dig to find. Me posting on their lists is not passive aggressive, not being able to even respond to a comment and deleting it is passive aggressive. Also why complain about my tone when you use the same post to engage in the exact behavior you're so mad about? If you had just taken 3 minutes to respond giving your very basic reasoning for card justification instead of deleting comments, we could have had this conversation without you getting upset.
Now to respond to Rad Dummy specifically
If you don't think pyroclasm is cedh playable you need to reevaluate. Look at the proliferation of green due to the 7 mana different turn 1 mana dorks available to the color. Players keep 2 land hands because it includes a Llanowar Elves. Look at the amount of hatebear strategies that are significantly chipped away at from Pyroclasm and variants. Look at value enablers like Edric, Spymaster of Trest or even just Dark Confidant that are blown out by Pyroclasm. For real, the card definitely sees play. Board wipes ARE relevant for Yuriko because without a creature on the board you must cast then pass, not getting the immediate card advantage trigger. You also lose further card advantage from not being able to land other ninjas on players too for additional triggers. Your inability to see this makes me think little of your critical faculties.
Diving Top is indeed a grindier card, but you're missing the point I've been making the entire time. Your ONLY pile cracker outside of your commander is Brainstorm or Thought Scour. When your commander isn't available, your DD is a dead card in hand. Rather than respond to this point, you keep sidetracking about how its too much mana investment or only good for grindier games. Not every game is going to curve perfectly into a turn 4 or 5 win. Running DD and only running a pilecracker via your commander is short sighted. Rather than respond to that point, you keep sidetracking. Have you considered that maybe Doomsday isn't the exact same strategy as the rest of the Yuriko deck? Maybe by choosing to slot DD, you have to include build around cards to help find it and resolve it smoothly?
Its neat that you're getting real upset and want to patronize me about math. I only talked explicitly about mana costs, and didn't misspeak. The ability to start the time warp with 5 mana and take the extra turn into the land drop for the 6 mana for the loop is neat and should be included in the primer for the combo, but the combo has far bigger problems. You also never responded to my point about assuredly getting to 6 mana reliably with 29 lands and 4 pieces of ramp, only 3 of which can execute the loop. You're assuming a lot of Yuriko triggers that are not guaranteed. Once again, the back up combo still relies heavily on getting Yuriko triggers. It isn't helping you in match ups where Yuriko struggles.
- Breezecaller is a creature and can be removed by LITERALLY any color at any point to disrupt the combo
- Mystic requires 3 other islands in play, meaning you absolutely 100% cannot start the combo before turn 4 at the earliest
- Mystic requiring 3 other islands means you are vulnerable to Strip Mine or Wasteland or MLD while setting up
- Mystic returning from GY means literally any piece of targeted grave hate stops this combo. Any deck can run Tormod's Crypt, while many opt for more efficient pieces of GY removal or GY hate
- Time Warp requires a cast every time and can be disrupted. It can also be Misdirection'd lol
- Extra turn hate is present in some decks especially in the form of Stranglehold.
The combo is basically hoping everyone is tapped out or has 0 instants in their hands. While it may be slot efficient with other things that you wish to run, it is by no means efficient or fast overall.
I know you're trying to carve out a name for yourself, but you are clearly inexperienced. Playing against 6 decks that are copies of Shaper lists doesn't encompass the entirety of the competitive scene. Both this deck and your own list are extremely vulnerable to a handful of cards and a couple overarching strategies. Rather than engage critically and employ your big boy thinking pants, you would rather split hairs over "Xantcha could NEVER be competitive viable" or "Go watch casual YT video". My point stands. Rather than engage with honest critique, your ego is much too fragile to imagine that maybe the list you made has problems and isn't perfect. @ me if you wish to continue further discussing these points, otherwise lets save both of us any future headaches and leave this be.
1 month ago
MadCatMax I gave a very clear reasoning. You are able to hit your infinite turns combo much faster if you are able to pay the mana reliably.
Your combo costs
- for the Oboro activation
- Play a land and have at least 3 other islands in play
- Cast Time Warp for
- Total cost is
- 3 Islands + Mystic provides
- There is still required every execution of your turns loop
- You run 3 rock accelerators in a 99 card deck, and also Dark Ritual which is not effective for the loop
- Even utilizing the untap effect from Oboro on one of your own lands, the earliest you can rip this combo is turn 6 without accelerators.
- This is assuming you hit a land drop every turn for 6 turns. 29 lands, probably not.
You have colorless mana costs in Intuition Oboro Breezecaller Commandeer Force of Negation Misdirection Spellstutter Sprite Tale's End Gingerbrute Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive Fallen Shinobi Ingenious Infiltrator Mist-Syndicate Naga Mistblade Shinobi Sakashima's Student Skullsnatcher Universal Automaton Brazen Borrower Contagion Cyclonic Rift Snuff Out Submerge Whiplash Trap Back to Basics Chains of Mephistopheles Cursed Totem Grafdigger's Cage Scroll Rack Temporal Manipulation Temporal Mastery Temporal Trespass Time Warp Demonic Tutor Diabolic Intent Hope of Ghirapur and Snapcaster Mage. That's 35 cards, literally exactly half of your non-land cards. Of course you can argue that a handful of these have alternate costs that don't include colorless mana, such as the pitch-to-play and some of the ninjutsu, which removes 10 cards from the "uses colorless mana" list. Either way, a quarter of the actual cards you draw and a third of the non-land cards you draw use colorless mana, and the alternate cost cards you will undoubtedly sometimes pay full price for when games go long and resources are available. I didn't even count your two burn cards.
I know you're trying to be clever by cutting slots, and I know this deck doesn't have the explosive plays of hitting Sol ring into mana rocks. Don't try to reinvent the wheel and get clever by cutting mana positive rocks in a deck that uses mana.
My comment is more directed at your friend, who I wrote a very elaborate response to as for inclusions for Sensei's Top in his Doomsday list, and how being reliant on your commander and creatures entirely for card advantage as well as pile cracking is setting him up for failure. Rather than respond, he chose to delete and block me. These decks have a bigger overall problem of being decent competitive decks against most match ups, but absolutely entirely worthless against certain match ups that completely hose the strategy because of how reliant on the commander these decks are. Nevermore on your commander either causes you to scoop or pray for amazing top deck. Repeated Pyroclasm effects resolving cause scoops. Choosing to run Misdirection over Swan Song means if you're counting on Misdirection to stop Pyroclasm you're scooping, or if you're counting on it to stop Demonic Consultation or Flash or Tainted Pact you're scooping. Yes I know it makes a bird token for blocking, but slotting bad cards is your biggest problem.
No I'm not joining your discord. You two are clowns, enjoy brewing your mediocre deck on your own. I'll enjoy the free wins if I ever end up in a pod against someone playing one of these decks.
1 month ago
Hey there! I like the list overall. The theme of denying mana from your opponents seems pretty interesting. The main thing I would take a look at is adding some extra control into the deck in order to make sure Zur can get to the battlefield. I would say, with your mana curve and ramp package you could easily cut 4 lands and still remain relativity safe. I think you could also part with some of the less effective / protection enchantments (like Steel of the Godhead, Triclopean Sight, Empyrial Armor, and maybe one of the shroud affects) in order to, again, add more instant speed protection and control. I think the enchantments are strong, but the fact that Zur can tutor out the best ones consistently means that redundancy isn't as important as long as you can reliably cast Zur and keep him around.
In terms of which counterspells I suggest, I would focus on low CMC, non creature counterspells. Counterspells like Negate or Dispel are easy to cast and can be used efficiently to protect Zur against opposing counterspells and instant speed removal. The higher cost counterspells (In terms of monetary cost) are also very strong as well, but that's more dependent on budget. Flusterstorm, Force of Will, Force of Negation, Mana Drain, and Pact of Negation are all fantastic if you can afford them, but spells like Mystical Dispute, Narset's Reversal, and just regular old Counterspell can get you there as well on a budget.
1 month ago
1 month ago
I was brainstorming, and I think the best solution (in addition to the Force of Negation you already have in the sideboard) would be to add one or two Commandeer, because Teferi is so important to your strategy, too. Free spells are difficult to play around. You could then start the lock using their own Teferi. It also has uses against Tron decks, so it won't be completely dead in the sideboard.
There is silver lining to the spells being cast off the scepter: you can pay kicker costs, so Prohibit and Into the Roil might be worth considering. Prohibit can be a harder counter than Mana Leak and Into the Roil can be a card draw engine in a way Echoing Truth can't.