Force of Vigor
If it's not your turn, you may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Destroy up to two target artifacts and/or enchantments.
|Have (2)||lorddarkstar ,|
Printings View all
|Modern Horizons (MH1)||Rare|
Combos Browse all
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Force of Vigor Discussion
2 days ago
Overwhelming Stampede great damage and trample gain. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx great devotion mana ramp. Craterhoof Behemoth another great damage and trample gain. The Ozolith to keep all your counters. I would move Force of Vigor, Natural State to sideboard. I would remove 2 Castle Garenbrig and all the Llanowar Reborn for regular Forest and 2Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I would also remove the 4 Managorger Hydra for 4 Khalni Hydra. Move the artifacts to side. I would also recomend putting in some Primalcrux but i wouldnt suggest straying away from the creature type past that,
3 days ago
If my Opponent has an effect that spells cost 2 more to cast and I play Force of Vigor and exile a green card to rather than pay the mana cost, still I must pay 2 more?
1 week ago
2 weeks ago
Pretty solid list so far, I have a few suggestions though. First and foremost, if you haven't checked out the cEDH decklist database, I recommend it. If you're truly wanting to get in to cEDH, then that is a good outlet for deck brewing. There are a bunch of cards in your list that are solid picks for a Kinnan deck, but there are also some that aren't up to snuff with the meta, but that's not a necessarily bad thing. Competitive EDH is about play the most powerful cards in the your color pie to achieve your overall win condition and to do it as efficient and consistent as possible. Kinnan is quite new and people are still trying to find the best way to brew the deck, but his strategy is undoubtedly proactive, so we have to try to overwhelm our opponents as fast as possible.
Here are the cards in your deck that you just don't see in the cEDH meta. Not a bad thing, just something to consider.
Your mana dorks are higher in CMC that the meta heavy mana dorks. This puts them being cast usually around turn two, which is when you want to be casting Kinnan.
Arcum's Astrolabe - It's just way too circumstantial, especially when you only have 6 snow lands in the deck. This card would be dead in your hand most of the time. There are also better mana rocks.
Mind Stone has been sub-par for a while. In cEDH, you want to get plenty of mana as soon as possible so you can start setting up for win quickly. This is why Grim Monolith and Mana Vault are very prevalent in the meta. They are net positive mana rocks that come in quickly.
Whir of Invention and Blue Sun's Zenith are on the cusp of being played in the meta and not, mostly Blue Sun's Zenith as it's used to help draw the deck after getting infinite mana. Usually you see these more in mono blue decks because they have plenty of blue to pay the non-generic mana and can go big with the X cost, however, once you leave mono blue it's very difficult to keep up mana for interaction after casting these and usually when X is greater than 2, it's worth someone countering it. If they're countered, the feel bads set in as you're now 5-6 mana behind. I would suggest cutting at least Whir of Inventions for a cantrip like Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain that nets you cards for cheap.
Force of Vigor - It's not bad, I've seen a few decks run it that are more on the control side, but Kinnan is trying to be more proactive than reactive. Blue has some of the best removal in the game for cheap. Maybe consider a Chain of Vapor. That way if there is a problematic card for you on the board such as Cursed Totem or Linvala, Keeper of Silence, you can hit it regardless of what it is for one mana regardless of whose turn it is.
There are a few suggestions I'd like to make for you to add that are practically staples for most of the cEDH Kinnan decks:
Seedborn Muse to help you use your commander more and acquire an overwhelming board state.
Right now, if you were to play a game with this list, I wouldn't be afraid of you activating Kinnan because there's nothing that will severely impact the game. Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is in a lot of the other cEDH decks because getting this guy on the field is detrimental to every opponent's strategy. I suggest you get a higher creature count and put more scary things in the deck. You'll whiff a lot with on activations with a creature count that low.
Here is a link to my current Kinnan build that has been assembling win (in a vaccum) very consistently between turns 3 and 4: Kinnan Activations cEDH
1 month ago
Hey, your deck is really good, but if you're looking for some upgrades here's some suggestions.
Some expensive cards within the budget of $600:
Viscera Seer + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Walking Ballista is a creature infinite combo with Ballista as the win condition. In my opinion by adding just one infinite combo as a win condition it makes a deck better. Because all the cards of this combo are creatures then they can all be reanimate or recurred by Meren. I'm suggesting this combo because you already have Mikaeus and Seer.
Some less expensive price upgrades:
Cards to consider cutting:
- 1x Swamp
- Evolving Wilds
- Pawn of Ulamog
- Greenwarden of Murasa
- Noxious Gearhulk
- Black Sun's Zenith
- Gilded Lotus
- No Mercy
- Sudden Spoiling
- Rune-Scarred Demon
- Dictate of Erebos
Many of these suggested cuts are high CMC redundant creatures which you don't need with Meren.
Good luck with your deck.
1 month ago
Tutors are necessary for an entire archetype to function.
You didn't mention which archetype that is, but I'm assuming you are referring to combo. I completely disagree! I've built quite a few combos that win without worrying at all about whether or not the deck has access to combos (in fact, some times the decks are playing stuff like Mindlock Orb that restricts my ability to tutor as well). Here are three examples:
That's on top of the deck I played in my stream last night, Nethroi Apex of Death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mlA0-agBDk
(And this is responding to as well) Tutors aren't necessary for combos, at all. They are just necessary for the most mana efficient of combos (and having those around is why the higher the powerlevel you go, the more it kicks out the other archetypes). If we are worried about archetypes not being possible, then you would be arguing for nerfing combo since it is much more powerful that control, midrange, and especially aggro are nearly impossible to be viable.
Sure, you might find it more fun to win with the lack of consistency, but you should not ascribe that to every player.
Here's the problem... Knowing about game design gives insight about how fun is accomplished. I'm no expert, but I've made quite a number of games based on a few principles, one of which being "Gameplay experience repeating itself from game to game is one of the biggest killers of fun." In fact, this is exactly why Commander blew up in popularity in the first place: Going from 60-card decks with 4-ofs to 100-card decks with 1-ofs is a HUUUUGE drop in consistency, making games less repeating, and consequently more fun.
You also are treating tutors like there is no opportunity cost to using them--you have to burn mana to find your cards, and many of the best tutors put the card on top of your library, meaning you're wasting your next draw or have to use another method to get the card into your hand.
Well, then let's be honest about it, is the cost to search about 60 unique cards for one mana mechanically similar to searching about 15 unique cards for one mana? (Where did these numbers come from? There are about 60 1-ofs in a commander deck when you don't include lands and there are about 15 2-ofs, 3-ofs, and 4-ofs in a 60-card deck.) I think we can agree that they're not. In that way, tutors fall into the category of "Interact poorly with the format" quality of the banlist. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for banning tutors, but that's only because I think there's a better way to fix the issue. Is it unprecedented? In application, yes, but the precedent for the reasoning is as old as the format itself.
What you propose is to to make a card not work as written--that's a huge problem. In fact, it violates what is literally the first of "Magic's Golden Rules": Rule 101.1.
So does the commander replacement rule. Because of that, casting a Murder on a commander doesn't cause it to die in almost all situations.
In addition, your response to me exemplifies the principle of "loss aversion" in psychology, which can be summarized as "A loss of the same magnitude as a gain is felt by human brains to be much larger in magnitude." You are only looking at the change in terms of how it would affect your decks, but remember, it affects three times as many decks in your games: your opponents. No one complains about one of their opponents' decks being too inconsistent, but people are commonly infuriated playing against decks that can consistently fulfill their gameplan. Personally, I understand it's a part of the game currently, but I can also understand that it's an area of the game that is ripe for improvement.
The banlist could just go away completely & if players cannot exhibit deck-building control & want to win the same way every time, then that is their problem to deal with. My playgroup knows how to self-regulate.
You are missing a huge portion of the playerbase if you are only considering players with playgroups. Many players (myself included) play the game in such a way in that the majority of our games are with people with whom we have never played a game before. In my situation, I play with strangers on MTGO, but I have friends who play mostly on Discord and I have friends who play Commander mostly at side events.
Getting rid of the banlist because playgroups can deal with it means that people with no playgroups gets a huge problem, resulting in their probable exit for the game. Why? Just to make it so that playgroups decide on their own bans INSTEAD OF DECIDING THEIR OWN UNBANS? That's definitely a poor idea, not to mention how many people play with multiple playgroups. Are they just going to have some decks for one playgroup and other decks for the other playgroup? No, they'd just stop playing with one group of people.
rubix215 My favorite answers in Gruul are Force of Vigor, Nature's Claim, Beast Within, Return to Nature, Mogg Salvage, Chaos Warp, Abrade, and Harvest Pyre. If there any of those cards that you aren't playing, I would start of with trying a few of those! :)
Overall, I am really enjoying our discussions! Hopefully, I didn't hijack the thread, but time and time and time again I see problems that people are having issue, and to me it seems obvious that there is a single solution that fixes it all! On top of that, it doesn't actually make cards unplayable at the same time! What I'm suggestion would turn Demonic Tutor into a way better Anticipate, which makes it still hugely playable. It just takes away it's ability to find watchlist cards game after game after game.
1 month ago
You also need ways to reliably tap your commander, you can't always rely on having someone you can safely attack into.
Looking forward to seeing what you'll make of this deck!
2 months ago
META CHANGE / DECK CHANGE
Update at 03/2020