Chain of Vapor

Chain of Vapor

Instant

Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Then that permanent's controller may sacrifice a land. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Browse Alters View at Gatherer

Trade

Have (1) metalmagic
Want (2) carlosfee , Clayjarema

Printings View all

Set Rarity
Commander 2016 (C16) Uncommon
Onslaught (ONS) Uncommon

Combos Browse all

Legality

Format Legality
Tiny Leaders Legal
Noble Legal
Leviathan Legal
Magic Duels Legal
Canadian Highlander Legal
Vintage Legal
2019-10-04 Legal
Vanguard Legal
Legacy Legal
Archenemy Legal
Planechase Legal
1v1 Commander Legal
Duel Commander Legal
Oathbreaker Legal
Unformat Legal
Casual Legal
Commander / EDH Legal

Chain of Vapor occurrence in decks from the last year

Commander / EDH:

All decks: 0.04%

Blue: 0.26%

UBR (Grixis): 0.48%

Chain of Vapor Discussion

Dawncaller7777777 on Austin Howes's [UR] cEDH Nin (PRIMER)

3 weeks ago

In a cEDH setting, Nin is an artifact combo list with a healthy dose of interaction and a little stax. This is because we are slightly slower than the dedicated fast combo decks anyway (Food Chain, Storm, Flash Hulk, etc.), so it is best to pack more interaction to help control the game until we can safely win. Yes, I know Thrasios is king of the infinite mana generals, but I've got a soft spot for Nin and I've enjoyed tweaking the absolute highest power list with her as possible over the years. (I'm confident she's solid tier 2 material. She actually has some advantages over fish man!)

I'll start with the deck's plan, win conditions, my local meta, then break down the card choices by card type. To keep this from being the length of your average thesis, I'm not going to go in-depth into play patterns and such, but I hope you can absorb some of that type of information from my discussion on each of the cards in the list.

Basic Metrics / Gameplan:

Land count: 31

Average CMC: 1.81

cEDH Nin is an infinite mana combo deck. I have tried everything else (Theft, Storm, Sneak Attack Eldrazi) but nothing matches the power and efficiency of the artifact mana kill. Our gameplan is to generate infinite mana using one of our compact 2-card combos and find an outlet to kill the table. Nin fills the role nicely since infinite mana with Nin means you draw your deck (and win, presumably).

Here's how you can get infinite mana:

Plan A: Isochron Scepter imprinting Dramatic Reversal + 3 mana from artifacts

Plan B: Grim Monolith + Power Artifact

Plan C: Metalworker + Staff of Domination + 3 Artifacts in hand

After you have infinite mana, you have a few options. In order to win, you usually play Walking Ballista for X = 1 million and activate its second ability a million times (holding priority) to kill the table. If you don't have it in hand, you can use Nin, the Pain Artist's ability on herself (or another creature you control) to draw your deck. You can also use Staff of Domination (or the suite of artifact tutors to find Staff) to achieve the same effect. If the Ballista gets exiled somehow, you can still kill the table with Expansion / Explosion by casting it and flashing it back with Mission Briefing. If everything has gone wrong and none of those options are available, it's time to start hitting opponents' creatures with Nin to deck them.

Why Nin over X General?

First, no, Nin is not as strong as 4-color Thrasios (No deck is, I believe it is the best deck in the format). This is partially since Thrasios doesn't care about summoning sickness to draw your library, and the extra colors allow you to take advantage of the best green and black spells out there.

But, Nin has a few unique advantages that I've found very enticing. First, the red splash offers a variety of helpful stax pieces (Blood Moon, Stranglehold) and enables unique cards that few other cEDH decks can take advantage of (Dack Fayden). This makes for a deck with all the payoff cards of a mono blue deck (High Tide, Vedalken Shackles) while still having the spiciest interaction. Second, she can hit herself midgame to refill your hand when running low on gas. Since cEDH is so fast and mana costs are so low, it's common for decks to peeter out quickly without a good draw engine. Nin fits the bill extremely well here, and there have been many situations where I've been able to ping Nin with her ability for 5 cards or so EOT, then win with my massive advantage the next turn. That efficiency just draws more cards than Thrasios/Tymna on average, which gives us an edge.

As for other infinite commanders, most either are useless without infinite mana/storm (Oona, Circu) or need colored mana (Tasigur, Breya) and require more complicated combos than the ones seen in this deck. Among other Izzet commanders, the biggest competition is new Jhoira. But that deck is too glass cannon IMO (reliant on the commander) and is forced to play tons of weaker artifacts just to hit critical mass to reliably draw cards. If Jhoira is taken out, it's very hard to get the ball rolling again. Nin can play both the control role and combo role just as effectively.

My meta:

As any tuned deck should, this list is tuned for my local playgroup. If you're looking to take inspiration from this deck, feel free to adjust things if you find they won't be as helpful in your pods. cEDH has a lot of silver bullet stax cards, so it's expected to pick and choose the best for your most frequent opponents. On a given day, I'll be against:

Thrasios + Tymna

Prime Speaker Vannifar

Chain Veil Teferi

Animar, Soul of Elements

Karador, Ghost Chieftain

Arcum Dagsson

Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain

Muldrotha, the Gravetide

Brago, King Eternal Stax

Gitrog Dredge

Yisan, the Wander Bard

Kess Storm

Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy

Food Chain Tazri

Alesha Stax

Meren Stax

Approximately 8 million Flash Hulk variants (Tasigur is the main one in this group)

All of these are at or near the cEDH level. If you're not against other cEDH decks, don't build a deck like this. You'll be seen as a pubstomper asshole and it's kinda rude.

Let's dive into the decklist. Here you'll find a quick explanation for every card in the list - separated by card type.

Creatures:

Gilded Drake: Simply best in slot for commander theft. Obviously better than just killing an enemy commander since they'll need to kill it to use it again. Plenty of cEDH decks rely on their commander (Yisan, Selvala, Animar, Yannifar, etc.) and this stops them dead in their tracks (particularly greedy decks like Gitrog that don't interact at all).

Dockside Extortionist: Excellent new guy from C19 - he serves as a piece of ramp and leaves a body to be hit by Nin afterwards.

Metalworker: Yikes, what a card. Any card that can generate more mana than it costs is a contender for cEDH, and lil' robot provides. With 3 artifacts in hand, he combos for the win with Staff of Domination. Otherwise, often taps for a lot of mana, then gets sacrificed to Nin for a fresh hand.

Spellseeker: Can find Dramatic Reversal for the combo, Transmute Artifact to find the Scepter, or countermagic to protect the combo if you already have it in hand. If you're really in a pinch, go find Cyclonic Rift.

Trinket Mage: Basically Sol Ring on a stick. Still worth it even at 3 mana. Sometimes can snag Grafdigger's Cage when an opponent is eyeing their graveyard or about to tutor something directly into play.

Snapcaster Mage: Excellent all-arounder. Works as a double of your essential card draw spell or interaction against disruption. I prefer this over Mission Briefing since the body is relevant (you can ping him with Nin later to draw cards).

Tribute Mage: An even better variant, since it can find combo pieces such as the Scepter or Monolith. If you need to, it can find a different rock or hate piece.

Thing in the Ice  Flip: A recent addition but welcome one. It blocks well, has a big butt so I can hit it with Nin for cards, and applies pressure when it flips. A 2 mana creature wipe is extremely rewarding, and shines when your meta is dominated by creature combo decks (as mine is).

Walking Ballista: The kill card of choice. With infinite mana, you win the game. Remember to hold priority after each activation of his damage ability to prevent people from interacting with you. Can find it with Trinket Mage, Inventor's Fair, and several other artifact tutors.

Instants:

Pact of Negation: Cheap countermagic is the king of interaction in cEDH. Who cares about the upkeep cost if you win the game the turn you cast it?

Brainstorm: Legacy staple for a reason. Good here because of our shuffle effects (Ponder, Fetches, tutors, etc.). Handy for hiding cards you want in your library right before a Wheel of Fortune.

Chain of Vapor: No one's going to sac a land to copy it. 1 mana bounce is great.

Galvanic Blast: A metagame choice. Brago, Linvala, Meren, Atraxa, Karador, Zur, and Kess are tough to deal with - Blast helps me efficiently deal with these pesky 4-toughness commanders. Sometimes you just have to kill a commander or lose (Yisan, Selvala, Zur). Most don't expect it, and punishes people who go a little too deep with Ad Nauseum. Most often gets rid of a hatebear, which is just fine. Also is a nice spell to imprint under the Scepter when I'm going for Plan D to win, which has happened a few times.

High Tide: 1 mana to make like 5 mana? OK. 1 mana = 1 card with Nin, so I'm down for that. We have lots of basic islands to afford to play with this.

Mental Misstep: A LOT of cEDH cards are CMC 1. The fact that this is free is even better.

Mystical Tutor: Not much that needs to be said here, generically useful tutor effect.

Swan Song: 1 mana hard counter for 3 card types. The bird doesn't matter.

Pyroblast: It's good disruption and combo protection all in one, especially if you know there will be a lot of countermagic trying to interact with you.

Abrade: Very versatile interaction - either blows up a piece of fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt), hatebear or other relevant creature (Yisan, Thalia, Baby Jace), or stax piece (Trinisphere, Null Rod, etc.). Really helps round out my removal suite since most of my other interaction doesn't hit artifacts or creatures.

Counterspell: Classic. 2 mana is good enough for an unconditional counter.

Cyclonic Rift: One of the remaining board wipes left in the deck, and the one with the most punch. Some decks cut this, but I think Nin makes enough mana to reliably overload it when really necessary.

Dramatic Reversal: Part of the primary combo. Not even terrible when you aren't imprinting it under the scepter, especially when you need to reset Grim Monolith or Mana Vault.

Expansion / Explosion: I'm interested in this as a replacement for Comet Storm (previous back-up plan kill card), so I'm trying it out. You can get Comet storm with Muddle the Mixture, but you can get this with Merchant Scroll. I like that it is a good early interactive spell that can counter opposing counters, or borrow some of black's tutor power when an opponent casts something, all while still being a good outlet for infinite mana when it's time to win (burn an opponent and make another deck themselves, or deck myself and draw into Walking Ballista if I don't have it yet). Besides, I'm not using the burn portion of Comet Storm much since I've been happy with Abrade and Galvanic Blast.

Impulse: Handy and efficient card draw when Nin isn't online. (Can put it under the scepter in grindy games.)

Mana Drain: Oof. I hope you don't need me to explain why this card is busted.

Muddle the Mixture: Secret powerhouse. It finds both pieces of Plan A and Plan B combos, and can also counter things when needed.

Narset's Reversal: Wonderfully tricky interactive spell. Can borrow some of black's tutor power while delaying opponents' tutors, or redirect their removal at their own board. This works nicely against counterspells since you can return your own spell to your hand in response, then recast it.

Negate Unless your meta is filled with Elfball and Creature combo decks, negate will always be great.

Whir of Invention: Chord of Calling for artifacts. The fact that this is instant is huge - not much else to say here. It's a tutor = It's good.

Fact or Fiction: Recently added back into the deck. I thought 4 mana was too much, but turns out that's still a great rate for what you get here.

Force of Will: See Pact of Negation. If this was some 4 color nonsense deck, I'd think twice about using this. We're nearly monoblue, so no regrets.

Sorceries:

Gitaxian Probe: Free card draw. Useful for checking if the coast is clear to combo off, and 0 mana to get a Paradox Engine trigger sounds great to me.

Ponder: Obviously good card selection. Cheap and effective.

Preordain: See Ponder.

Vandalblast: Every cEDH deck uses fast artifact mana, and most use even more artifacts as engines, stax pieces, or kill cards (Like this deck). 5 mana to kill 8+ mana worth of rocks, Cursed Totem, and your Chain Veil? Insane. 1 mana to get your Sol Ring? Still good.

Merchant Scroll: Obvious generically good tutor. Main targets are counterspells, Dramatic Reversal, and Cyclonic Rift.

Transmute Artifact: Best there is. Easiest tutor to sneak Paradox Engine into play early.

Fabricate: Obvious generically good tutor. A tad expensive, but can't complain.

Pyroclasm: Wrecks the elfball / hatebear decks. I wanted a cheap sweeper to fight against creature decks since most of my remaining removal is designed to fight blue.

Wheel of Fortune: 3 mana for 7 cards. We want as many of these as we can get after dumping mana rocks early. Try to use this right after an opponent tutors for something to hand.

Windfall: See Wheel of Fortune.

Artifacts:

Chrome Mox: A lot of these will be busted mana rocks, so let me lay it out here - fast artifact mana is absurd in cEDH. In a game like magic that is balanced by limited resources, if you can have 5 or 6 mana on turn 2-3, you'll win a vast majority of those games. There's no mystery why every powerful deck is filled with these 0-2 CMC rocks (minus Animar). In our deck, more mana = more cards with Nin, and a greater likelihood of doing something insane with Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter or Paradox Engine the moment they hit the field.

Lotus Petal: Yeah, still good enough. See Chrome Mox.

Mana Crypt: Busted. See Chrome Mox.

Mox Amber: It's a mox, albeit the weakest of the bunch.

Mox Diamond: It's a mox.

Mox Opal: it's a mox.

Grafdigger's Cage: Stops Reanimation, Hulk combos, Yisan, and Chord effects. Hardly affects me at all.

Mana Vault: Busted. See Chrome Mox.

Sensei's Divining Top: Provides a little bit of extra digging when you need it. You can stack draw triggers when you have a Paradox Engine loop to draw through your deck.

Sol Ring: Busted. See Chrome Mox.

Fellwar Stone: 2 mana, comes into play untapped, makes colored mana. "Rock" solid.

Arcane Signet: Great new rock! Even better than Fellwar.

Grim Monolith: Busted. See Chrome Mox. One of the pieces for Plan B infinite mana combo.

Isochron Scepter: One of the pieces for Plan A/D infinite mana combo. Don't be afraid to imprint something other than Dramatic Reversal if you can't find the combo after a while. Mana Drain / Impulse / High Tide / Whatever every turn is still pretty sick.

Izzet Signet: 2 mana, comes into play untapped, makes colored mana.

Mind Stone: Weakest among the rocks here, but cycles when I'd rather have something else. Still good enough.

Talisman of Creativity: 2 mana, comes into play untapped, fixes mana when you need colored.

Scroll Rack: One of the best ways to dig through your deck, especially after scooping up a bunch of cards after using Nin to refill your hand or a Wheel of Fortune effect.

Staff of Domination: an infinite mana outlet, and a piece to achieve infinite mana in Plan C. Usually we use this to draw our deck.

Vedalken Shackles: A little expensive mana-wise, but much stronger than it looks. Most creatures in a competitive environment are small, so I usually only need a few islands to threaten to steal anything. Makes strategies that rely on a commander very difficult (Yisan, Brago, etc.). Sometimes just steals mana dorks, which I'm fine with since I can hit it with Nin and steal another one the next turn.

Enchantments:

Mystic Remora: A cEDH staple that has still gone under the radar in a lot of casual circles. Will either force everyone to play slower for a few turns or draw you like 8 cards.

Power Artifact: The other piece of the Plan B infinite mana combo. Usually find this guy via Muddle the Mixture.

Blood Moon: I live off the tears of greedy 4-color manabases. Straight up locks some decks out of colored mana, and doesn't affect me at all. Stops other stuff that's tough to interact with (Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, etc.).

Back to Basics: Another excellent payoff for being primarily blue with a light red splash. Decimates greedy manabases of 3+ color decks. Unlike Blood Moon, you can play this when opponents are tapped out to completely lock them off of mana (instead of giving them a bunch of mountains).

Planeswalkers:

Dack Fayden: Consistently awesome and one of the biggest payoffs for going UR. There is always a good mana rock to steal.

Narset, Parter of Veils: One of the more recent heavy-hitters in cEDH, Narset is an excellent stax and card advantage piece all in one. Notably, you can Nin opponents' creatures with Narset out, and they'll only draw 1 card (0 if you're doing it on their turn). Also pairs especially well with Wheel effects, since you'll strip opponents of their hands.

Tezzeret the Seeker: Expensive, but excellent. Think of it like a copy of Transmute Artifact, but if you're lucky you can use it twice.

(Notable) Lands:

Academy Ruins / Buried Ruin: Our tiny recursion package, just in case critical cards get milled or destroyed.

Inventors' Fair: It's a tutor!

Notable Exclusions:

Timetwister / Mishra's Workshop / Volcanic Island: The benefit just isn't worth it in real world dollars. I'm not doing any infinite Timetwister loops, so it's just an insanely expensive wheel effect. Mishra's Workshop is not even good, and while including Volcanic Island would be nice, the benefit is marginal for how much it costs.

Past Inclusions + Currently Testing:

Paradox Engine: Goodnight, sweet prince. It was nice while it lasted. RIP

Kuldotha Forgemaster: Too expensive / clunky.

Consecrated Sphinx: Casual all-star, but 6 mana to maybe draw some cards is too much to ask.

Magus of the Moon: Great when Karador, Animar, Kess, and T&T are at the store, but lately there's been a lot of Edric, Yisan, Yannifar, and Teferi (who don't care about this effect).

Great Furnace: Used this to make sure Mox Opal would be active more often, but I've found it's more important to just have Islands (Vedalken Shackles, Blood Moon effects, etc.)

Annul: The blue 1-mana disenchant. The cards I'm most terrified of are Stony Silence, Null Rod, and Cursed Totem - all of which are hit by Annul. Also, there are plenty of scary targets besides the one I mentioned. There are other 1 mana answers that are more useful though.

Thought Vessel: Got cut as the weakest of the 2cmc rocks as more hatepieces made their way into the deck (Grafdiggers, Blood Moon, Stranglehold, etc.)

Voltaic Key: If we're treating this as a mana rock, it doesn't net mana often enough to be worth it. (Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt are the only good targets)

Torpor Orb: Karador has mostly left the local meta, so I feel better about taking this one out. The only deck this really messes with nowadays is Animar and Brago, but I have some tech for him already.

Stranglehold: Gets better the more competitive your group is. Brutal when powered out early, since it also turns off fetchlands. Love playing this against Yisan and Sisay players in my group.

Gamble: This card was in the list for years, and it was only recently that I took it out. I understand why it's popular (it's a 1 mana tutor in red!), but in my years of experience I've found it to be overrated. You usually use tutors to find the second piece of your two card combos (Iso/Scepter or Grim/Power). By that time, there usually isn't much else left in your hand, so discarding one of your combo pieces is likely. So, perhaps you use this to just tutor for fast mana or silver bullet stax pieces? But you can't do it when you have any combo piece in hand, since you're SOL if you discard it. Sometimes you're just unlucky. Generally, I only use this card when I've drawn a lot of cards with Nin and the probability of discarding something critical is low. So, most of the time Gamble is a win-more card. I'm testing taking this card out, but who knows. Most cEDH lists use it, maybe I've been using it wrong.

Spell Snare: Just like Mental Misstep, most people in cEDH play cheap spells. This slot was at first reserved for protection against the scariest stax pieces (Stony Silence, Null Rod, Cursed Totem), but I realized that Spell Snare is more useful than most counters not just against these hate cards, but tons of others. Hits Survival of the Fittest, Kataki, tons of hatebears, Isochron Scepter, several counterspells, Grim Monolith, Flash, Thrasios, etc. Currently replaced with Into the Roil since it's more versatile.

Dispel: Turns out cEDH has a lot of good instants to counter. Most non-elfball decks run at least 20-25. Handy for protecting Nin when attempting to shoot herself to refill my hand, or countering disruption during combo turns.

IN GENERAL: the 1-mana "narrow" counter/removal slot(s).... I'm constantly flip-flopping between Spell Pierce, Pyroblast, Annul, and Spell Snare. Judging from other cEDH lists, Spell Pierce is the most popular, followed by Pyroblast...but I'm not too fond on any of these cards.

Thanks for checking out the guide! If you have any questions/suggestions about the deck, feel free to comment below.

(Sidenote: My playgroup allows PEngine, which I've replaced narset's reversal with.)

TWCE on Oracle Core

1 month ago

spuiopq Meme Journey seems better as a defensive option in the deck (with the breakfast pile) to shuffle Chain of Vapor back in and attempt to win again the following turn if the first one failed. With all of the Hulk piles there will be at least 3 devotion on board (Thassa's Oracle + Spellseeker/Cephalid Illusionist), and likely higher if the game lasts longer (Rhystic Study, Thrasios, etc.). Thus Meme Journey as a tech card really doesn't do much unless you have other removal on top of it. Since that's the case it's basically just better to run better interaction and have higher card quality than a card that isn't even guaranteed to stop the combo.

dingusdingo on Petition To Ban Flash Here

1 month ago

dbpunk

"Tbh I dont play cedh much"

Yeah dog we know. If you did, you'd be onboard with one of these cards getting banned

"However, I also think that banning a card just because it combos well with another card or two isnt really good enough reason for a banning"

There are plenty of 2 card combos that directly lead to winning that nobody is requesting a ban on. The specific problem with Flash Hulk is that it is easy to assemble, extremely cheap to use, and hard to interact with outside of counterspells or very specific stax pieces like Cursed Totem or Linvala, Keeper of Silence. The flash hulk player can sandbag their combo until getting either a counterspell or a Chain of Vapor effect to handle counterspells/stax pieces. The combo sits neatly in hand until it fires, meaning you don't get the chance to remove a piece to stop it from executing correctly. After the Hulk trigger resolves, the Flash Hulk player selects a handful of creatures that specifically allow them to hold priority until all their needed triggers to win are stacked, meaning you must attack abilities on the stack in order to stop the combo at this point. This combo can fire entirely at instant speed, meaning you can wait until a counter-war breaks out on the stack to slip your own combo on top, or simply try to win in response to someone else winning. Its a very powerful combo and currently nothing is close to it in consistency or difficulty to handle for the competitive scene.

Combos are fine. Combos that are extremely hard to interact with outside of playing blue and always holding a counterspell are not fine. Compare to a combo like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Village Bell-Ringer. You can remove one of the two pieces in response to the other being cast, that alone means every color can handle the combo. You can play any number of stop combat effects like Fog. You can even get blowouts with a card like Rakdos Charm. Any combat inhibitors like Solitary Confinement or Ghostly Prison also cause grief for this combo. Now compare to Flash Hulk. You need blue and you need counterspells or Stifle. Really narrows down deckbuilding choices about how to handle the combo.

Raging_Squiggle Iona, Shield of Emeria is banned because Painter's Servant was unbanned, not due to griefing casuals. It also did see play in competitive decks prior to its banning, especially in midrange decks that had both white and black, and it was a common reanimation target because it completely hoses out blue players or can lock a player if they're on a mono color combo like Godo or Sidisi. Swinging for 7 is non-trivial, even in combo heavy cEDH. If the board is locked or heavily slowed, especially if you have other hatebears, bleeding out the fastest combo deck or the Ad Nauseam/Necropotence player wins games.

Scytec While its arguable that Thassa's Oracle pushed Hulk past the tipping point, Hulk was already the deck to beat in cEDH. Just the fact there were 3 different hulk lists with the same commander for doing literally the exact same thing speaks to how stale the meta became due to Hulk's unbanning. Whoopdeedoo so the hulk mechanism is Sacred Guide instead of Nomads + Cephalid, really revolutionary design. All that this printing has done is show that any new creature printed with an alternate wincon or ability to mill the library is exacerbated by the existing problem of Flash Hulk. The deck was boring to play against or pilot before Oracle, and it is still boring afterwards. Once again, the problem is Hulk's ability to pull jank ass 4 card combos from your deck from a single card. Flash speeds it up and handles the dying aspect of the Hulk trigger, but the problem is 100% totally Protean Hulk's 6 CMC of tutoring power off a single card.

Flash Hulk definitely isn't 40% of the meta, but it is an ever-present threat and restricts deckbuilding because you have to account for that combo. I highly doubt the RC is waiting because they are collecting data, they have made it very well known how they ban cards and how they prioritize casual players over competitive players. Sheldon wasn't even aware of Dramatic Scepter combo until about 2 years ago, and the RC is almost entirely casual players with a chip on their shoulder about efficiency in their format. Them pushing rule 0 so heavily makes it even more absurd they don't ban from the top-down like literally every other single format. If a casual playgroup didn't like a ban, they could ignore it, meanwhile anyone who plays in tournaments or at their LGS is 100% bound to the RC's whimsical nonsensical bans.

dingusdingo on Fish Hulk might be a ...

1 month ago

Jinchonrei The reason these two combos in particular are receiving much attention is because they've become better and easier. They are hard to interact with. Hate pieces that stop them are solved by Chain of Vapor or Winds of Rebuke or Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay or any number of other cheap efficient removal pieces. The best option for handling them is counterspells, which limits the decks that are able to hack it at a competitive table. Its a deck you must be aware of when building and slotting your deck. If you can't handle the hulk, you have to be able to race the hulk. This limits the meta. The problem isn't infinite combos. There are plenty of nice and nasty combos available in the format. The problem is that these two combos in particular are so fast, so brutal, and so hard to stop that it is significantly warping the meta game around them. The printing of Thassa's Oracle collapsed Consult lines from Consult + Labman + Draw to simply Oracle then Consult, saving mana and opening more angles for comboing as you are now on a 2 card combo for discretely winning as opposed to a 3 card combo with a higher mana cost. The consult lines are now faster than they were before, and much safer to execute as you aren't afraid of labman being removed in response to the draw or being forced to draw in response to playing labman. Similarly, Hulk lines gained significantly in that you have winning lines you can stack entirely by holding priority after receiving your Hulk creatures. You also have protection piles available to use in certain circumstances where your meta is open enough to allow Dread Return. Wishing for more hate pieces isn't really going to alleviate the problem, but more cards like Angel's Grace is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, Angel's Grace is usually slotted exclusively in the context of Ad Nauseam, so whatever new cards similar to AG come need to be flexible, cheap to cast, and have value for playing independently outside of a combo or simply stopping Hulk. This is why Counterspell is the go-to method for policing Flash or Demonic Consultation. They stop the wins, but they are also useful against every almost other spell a player can play. AG is a dead draw except if you're holding Ad Naus, someone is about to win, or you are about to lose.

GhostChieftain on Es-cop-ay

1 month ago

Imo, dispel is too narrow if you only have a small counterspell package. Maybe Delay, Narset's Reversal or Flusterstorm in its stead. Mental Misstep is meta dependant; definitely play it if your opponents are low to the ground cEDH type decks, definitely avoid it if not. Swan Song is sick af no matter who you play against.

Chain of Vapor would also be a nice addition.

Tiphus on Lobotomist for dummies

2 months ago

FaiberJC, well, this is an interesting question. I think this can be done and the deck will not suffer much. I propose to make the following replacements:

  1. Mission Briefing -> Snapcaster Mage
  2. Chain of Vapor -> Laboratory Maniac
  3. Thought Lash -> Baral, Chief of Compliance
  4. Fabricate -> Trinket Mage
  5. Codex Shredder -> Jace's Archivist
  6. Rain of Filth -> Tomebound Lich

oo7x7oo on Elsha's Flashy Show

2 months ago

I try to avoid using creatures for obvious reasons: commander can't cast creatures from top.

The only two creatures I included are win cons.

Torpor Orb is very strong card especially now Thassa's Oracle is a big thing.

In cEDH deck you don't see people commonly run rift, main reason being it's 95% going to be used as single removal therefore chain is better. I like the versatility of Winds of Rebuke: it bounces threat, can save my commander from dying, disrupt commonly used library top tutors (mystical, enlightened, vampiric, imperial seal), and can manipulate my top of library. Therefore, Chain of Vapor can be an addition but not replacement for my consideration. Cyclonic Rift is not considered, it is a big advantage, but it really doesn't win the game.

I also don't see a big problem in Arcane Denial that opponent draws two cards. In cEDH quality is way more important than quantity, being able to deal the right thing is more crucial. Especially in cEDH, cards are very low curved, Remand sends back to their hand, but threat is still there and they can probably still replay it. I do see the upside that it can bounce my own spell being countered, but overall I think Arcane Denial less restricted and easier to use.

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