|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2016 (C16)||Uncommon|
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Chain of Vapor
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Then that permanent's controller may sacrifice a land. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.
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Chain of Vapor Discussion
4 days ago
Hey Aaerys, I used to run a Sen Triplets EDH deck also back in the day. Here is some insight which I hope you will find hopeful.
A couple questions, what is the budget are you working with? What is your main goal when you play with this deck? (Is it to control the game, deny resources, or stall until you combo?) What is the your playgroup level like?
Based on what you said your issues were while playing the deck, off the top of my head is to run more tutors, i.e. Demonic Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Vampiric Tutor (As you listed in your side board), Imperial Seal. You are in Esper colors which allows for optimal control of the boardstate.
To also answer your question you posted in your deck description, I would agree in turning it to a more control piece shell with more interaction. Cut out all unnecessary dead cards and add in cards such as Path to Exile, Delay, Mana Drain, Flusterstorm, Silence, Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Chain of Vapor, Mental Misstep, Swan Song. Ramp package is also quite vital for a control Sen Triplet shell, you should run almost all efficient 2 cmc and less rocks.
Some cards for ramp, Dimir Signet, Orzhov Signet, Azorius Signet, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, Fellwar Stone, Mind Stone, Talisman of Dominance, Talisman of Progress, if you have the budget Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, or Grim Monolith.
If you have any other questions to help refining deck, I'll be happy to help!
6 days ago
Swords to Plowshares over Reciprocate, as it is a budget option, and is the best creature removal in the game, apart from some minor cases where Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, Chain of Vapor, and Path to Exile are better, all in specific decks.
Soldier of the Pantheon is a really powerful card I would suggest, dependent on who you play against, like Dragon Hunter, but it can't be dealt damage by a multicolored creature or spell, and can't be blocked or targetted by one either, so it ends up that you can effectively get free wins against some decks!
Obviously, Recruiter of the Guard and a bunch of one-of cards like Palace Jailer, Sanctum Prelate, True Believer, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and other 'hate' cards that almost instantly win against the right deck can be good, but isn't cheap to build.
War Priest of Thune can be good against enchantments, Accorder Paladin for a more aggressive strategy, Knight of the Holy Nimbus if you go against removal heavy decks, Riders of Gavony against any tribe, and Imposing Sovereign for fun. Even Field Marshal can be sweet!
1 week ago
Curse of the Swine
Go for the Throat
Chain of Vapor
1 week ago
Stax commanders aren't just anything, they have to help break parity under stax. Think Teferi, Temporal Archmage untapping lands when you have a Stasis, Krenko, Mob Boss pumping out tokens to kill under enough Sphere of Safety effects while not casting anything else for victory.
Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip is a great example of how to build stax in the opposite way of these previous examples. Stax in cEDH is commonly based around making casting spells impossible, because of them costing too much, or their lands being tapped, they are mana-based hate stax lists.
Nath of the Gilt-Leaf is a good example of the other side to that idea, in which you make their hands to shredded that they can't cast anything, whether or not they have mana. These have the downside of their opponents having the ability to top-deck out of a normal creature lock, but Liliana's +2 is on a walker, so not nearly as much removal hits it, and while Chain of Vapor or other bounce effects still hurt it, that is normally about it, with some minor exceptions.
These types of commanders are greatly important to supporting your gameplan of staxing out your opponents, but, like Krenko, Mob Boss, sometimes a way to win when you get a bunch of effects that stop everyone from winning normally, such as a grindy engine are required. Erebos, God of the Dead is a good example of that type of stax commander. Building a deck that can rely on an indestructible enchantment in the Command Zone is very freeing, and allows the deck to do things that are card inefficient, such as Dark Ritualling out a Trinisphere turn one, which the lost card advantage can be bought back later on in the game.
Both commanders have some level of stax synergy to them, whether or not that makes them high powered is up to interpretation and what list you are using. Black isn't the best mono-colored stax color (White or Blue are! Probably blue.) yet still give a lot of interesting synergy, such as Dark Confidant, Mindblade Render, Phyrexian Arena and other grind engines, as well as good stax cards, from the overbearing Nether Void to the classic Chains of Mephistopheles
1 week ago
In my personal opinion, Arcane Denial, Capsize, Stroke of Genius, Unsubstantiate, and Day's Undoing are all cuttable. Denial is a pretty mediocre counterspell compared to something like Delay, Capsize is slow and mana intensive and inefficent without Engine + rocks in play, Stroke is redundant with Blue Suns and Pull in the deck already, Unsubstantiate is also redundant with Chain of Vapor and Cyclonic Rift + it doesn't loot with Baral, and I just don't like how much worse Day's Undoing is compared to Timetwister (though that one is super spendy), Time Spiral, and Windfall.
3 weeks ago
thegigibeast here are some of my thoughts on the matter, dunno if it helps!
Wait... Myojin of Seeing Winds is tier 5? That is the best Omni-Show deck in the format, being surprisingly powerful with proper gameplay, running as a controling sort of deck before dropping Omniscience and going all Super-Saiyan and drawing the deck and casting it all for free. It uses it because when you get Omni out you can cast your commander, then Chain of Vapor, Into the Roil, Snap, and Blink of an Eye it to hand and draw into more bounce and card draw to draw more bounce to bounce Myojin and keep storming off until it hits Enter the Infinite and wins. Surprisingly a really sweet list. Tier 4?
Also, Ragnar is Tier 5? That is the second best commander for creature-based bant stax decks, very close to Derevi. I mean, protecting the other creatures you run is really important, and Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper can't do a ton against sweepers like Austere Command, so Ragnar really helps the list. Tier 3 for me.
Ayesha Tanaka is a reasonably powerful commander for Azorius Stax, stopping many cards such as Basalt Monolith's untap, Grim Monolith's untap, Dramatic Reversal, Strionic Resonator, Aetherflux Reservoir, etc. Tier 4.
Dosan the Falling Leaf is a reasonably well-powered elf-ball commander, helping out stopping almost any interaction on combo-turn. It really is good, despite not being an elf, it is low-costed enough to be cast on turn two from a turn one elf, and easily go off turn three given little hate. Tier 3.
In tier 4... well there are a lot I disagree with:
Adun Oakenshield is a powerful midrange-combo commander, being good with Hermit Druid lines in a way most aren't. The line is a simple one, using Morselhoarder, Devoted Druid, Dread Return, Necrotic Ooze, and Walking Ballista, yet also is surprisingly powerful with the ability to use the commander to rebuild if the combo is disrupted, using Krosan Reclamation to bring cards back into the deck immediately and Riftsweeper to shuffle back in the Reclamation, the list also can use Adun to bring back key cards to attempt to recombo out the very next turn, given sufficient mana. Backup wincon in Survival of the Fittest/Protean Hulk/Apprentice Necromancer in case you can't access the druid. Tier 3 (Similar to Xira Arien in terms of as a card and power level).
Anafenza, the Foremost has been already discussed, and is much, much more powerful as a stax/hatebears commander than a load of currently much higher rated lists. Tier 2-3?
Dragonlord Dromoka is a commander that always surprises me as a really impressive commander for stax. It even has a relatively effective wincon in beatdown. Being able to stop interaction on your turn, laying out a thicker field of stax, every following turn, while also having a commander that is difficult to interact with (dependent on interaction) is really much stronger than people expect when they see the 6 cmc. Tier 3.
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves is another good option for elfball, leaving extremely little interaction. It can be targetted itself because it was errated, but it is a cheap, effective wall against targetted removal, and so should be considered more often in comparison to other lists. Tier 3 is my pick.
Heidar, Rimewind Master I have only seen once, and it didn't do amazingly, but after I looked at the list was a reasonable Dramatic Reversal Isochron Scepter list that uses all snow lands except for an Ancient Tomb using Scrying Sheets really well. The commander isn't amazing, but the interaction hitting nearly anything while being able to synergize with the countermagic suite the deck runs really seems good in the grindier games, in which it disables most other decks' combos for a turn or so if it sticks. Tier 3?
Linvala, Keeper of Silence is one of the better mono-white stax lists, along with Hokori, Dust Drinker, I would imagine they are better in the current metagame than most would expect. Tier 3 seems reasonable for both.
Masako the Humorless should be tier 5. I don't think this ability is useful at all in cEDH, and when we have Atogatog in tier 5, a commander that could replace many old Scions and Najeelas in the C-Zone and no one would notice in tier 1-2, this card shouldn't be considered tier 4.
I will write up lists for these if you want, but I think most speak for themselves.
3 weeks ago
Unfortunately, there's an issue with running Chain of Vapor in Animar. If you use Chain of Vapor to disrupt an opponent's attempt to win, you may end up having Animar bounced in return and wind up having your game plan set back as well while your other two opponents aren't affected. Normally opponents don't think it's worth sacrificing a land just to bounce a permanent but with Animar being a lynchpin to our deck's optimal performance they may actually decide it's worth it to reset Animar's counters. The fact that Animar has built-in protection from a lot of the frequently played targeted creature removal may also motivate them to copy the spell since you are basically handing them an option that they might have otherwise not had. The end result is that Chain of Vapor would frequently wind up feeling like a very risky play if Animar is on the board, and you always want Animar on the board.
I have given Chain of Vapor consideration on the basis that I would be using it on my own creatures most of the time, and as disruption only in the case of do-or-die emergencies. 1 mana and sacrificing a land to return two creatures to hand to recast is an interesting play, particularly if it is in response to removal, but I have a hard time seeing that as the sort of play that I would be wanting to make in most games. Maybe it would be a meta call in a meta were Toxic Deluge was frequently being thrown around and you wanted a way to bounce Animar to save from having to pay commander tax. If you have enough spare lands, you could also copy the chain one or two times to return creatures to help get the counters piling back up on Animar after you recast it.
Under normal circumstances though, I don't think that there are any cards in the deck that I would suggest taking out for Chain of Vapor.