|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2016 (C16)||Uncommon|
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Chain of Vapor
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Then that permanent's controller may sacrifice a land. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.
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Chain of Vapor Discussion
20 hours ago
Chain of Vapor is glaring angrily at Animar, with a Beast Within and Chaos Warp in the sidelines laughing hysterically, while little Animar is calling his friend Sylvan Safekeeper, stuck on the stack because Chain of Vapor was in response, but luckily a timely Mental Misstep was cast! Animar saves the day, before immediately making infinite Triggers from an Ancestral Statue and massacring everyone else with a Walking Ballista. Not really saving, is it?
1 week ago
Hey, the four cuts to consider: Obsessive Search, Boomerang, Opt and Everflowing Chalice.
Cards to consider as upgrades of current cards:
Cards to consider to cut for these:
- Twin Cast
- Deadeye Navigator
- Reality Spasm
- Reality Shift
- Whir of Invention
- Mind Stone
2 weeks ago
Hey, that's fine! No problem about just bouncing ideas off of you, I love a well-timed Chain of Vapor in a complex boardstate.
I will finish up the landbase now.
3 weeks ago
Hey, looks good, Grixis goodstuff :)
Consider more lands? 32 lands is low for this deck. There's 18 cards that are six CMC or higher and an avg CMC of 4.3. As it's currently constructed looks like a 40 land deck, but I think you can get away with 38 lands. You can also consider deceasing the avg CMC meaning you need less lands. For 32 land deck however the avg. CMC needs to be no higher than 2.0 and you're a long ways from that number right now. Adding more mana rocks will also help, 8-10 low mana cost mana rocks or additional mana sources other than lands are helpful in any Commander deck.
Budget Grixis goodstuff to consider adding or upgrading current cards:
- Sol Ring
- Talisman of Dominance
- Talisman of Indulgence
- Fellwar Stone
- Coalition Relic
- Faithless Looting
- Mystic Remora
- Mystical Tutor
- Arcane Denial
- Swan Song
- Mystic Confluence
- Painful Truths
- Night's Whisper
- Fact or Fiction
- Chain of Vapor
- Chaos Warp
- Animate Dead
- Dance of the Dead
I offer more help. Would you like more help?
3 weeks ago
Chain of Vapor is considered in cEDH to be the most efficient single-target removal spell. One-cmc, instant, unconditional removal for non-land permanents? Count me in. And blue also has one of the top two contenders for best board wipe, being Cyclonic Rift, though whether or not it is better than Toxic Deluge is certainly debatable. On one hand it can be a single target removal spell at a reasonable cost, and hits more permanents, on the other it is undeniably less cost effective, bit is an instant and doesn't cost life. There are arguements to be made either way. I'd say white is still better than Blue or black with them having an abundance of destroy effects for any permanent type, and having access to mass land destruction. Armageddon is hugely powerful, and with Grasp of Fate, Wrath of God, and other similar creature/non-land permanent removal, white is the king of removal.
I'd actually claim black only has creature removal to back itself up. Green, red, white, and blue have artifact removal, land destruction, and with the exception of red, enchantment removal too. Blue and red have mass land destruction in the forms of Sunder and Ruination/Decree of Annihilation, and though white is the king of it, it doesn't particularly help black's case at all. Green can't deal with creatures, but compare that to black that can't deal with anything but creatures and I'd argue for green as a removal color.
Over all here is the colors laid out in the form of removal:
- Can exile or destroy any permanent type at a low cost in mass or by single target.
- Can bounce any permanent type, and can destroy and exile creatures, in mass or by single target, commonly at instant speed.
- Can destroy any number of creatures.
- Can destroy any number of artifacts, lands and most creatures with damage, is mass or by single target.
- Can destroy any non-creature permanent types, though generally single target.
When ranking them, White is first, then Blue or Red, then Black, then Green. I'd say Black is still better than green due to black having some sweepers, and green having effectively none other than weird stuff like Back to Nature or other useless sweepers.
Why blue and red over black? Well, blue has less effective removal than red or black, but can hit more types of permanents, has much cheaper removal, and is generally instant speed. Red can hit many more types than black, and still has good sweepers, so I'd claim red and blue are nearly equal, and black is only the fourth best.
3 weeks ago
1 month ago
I understand Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune combo perfectky well, simply in a competitive environment, either one will be countered, or they will be removed with something like Chain of Vaporing the Archangel, in response to the first activation of Spike Feeder. That is a blowout like a Time Walk since you can't activate it again without killing the Spike Weaver. Felidar Sovereign with Chord of Calling is your best actual wincon, but I mean... 9 mana/creatures? What turn are you on? If this deck consistently puts out creatures and mana like that by turn 3, since you need to win by turn 4 at the latest for this to be a combo/aggro cEDH deck, then run it, I just don't think that is plausible.
2/2 Cats aren't a real strategy on their own. They don't make mana, and so don't combo out and win, simply put, I could get into Commander theory and the 'Aggro Problem', but I will just copy and paste the work I already did for something else:
This is too much for them. Generally there are a few way aggro compensates, one of which abuses the already built-in system of 'Commander Damage.' Building up a ton of auras and equipment on a commander to make it huge and swing in for 21 damage works in a lot of cases, and is called "Voltron." The main issue with this is a cheap and fast commander like Rafiq of the Many is too easily prone to removal like Swords to Plowshares, and more controlling commander like Sigarda, Host of Herons or Uril, the Miststalker are generally a bit too , slow to get around board wipes like Toxic Deluge, Wrath of God, Damnation, Day of Judgment and Supreme Verdict.
But there are other tricks aggro has up its sleeves, think infect. Really, infect is just as powerful in Modern or Legacy than in EDH, right? Well, not exactly, yes infect still only needs to deal 10 poison counters to kill a player, but you still have to deal at least 30 damage given your opponents can't kill faster than you, or if they are also playing infect. It's tracked differently, so if someone is at one life, they can take up to 9 poison counters and still live. Running Atraxa, Praetors' Voice can give some inevitability to your infect win, and stuff like Saskia the Unyielding can also be run to make you only have to deal 20 damage to win with infect.
The biggest issue with infect is that players generally frown upon it, and will target you, or player cards like Solemnity as a counter to it. Some playgroups set the poison counters needed to kill to 15 or 20, and some outright ban it. Also, since there are no commanders other than Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon directly support it, there is little consistency to infect decks, despite there explosive turns and wins.
Well, that is the aggro problem, it is what leads so many decks to be control, midrange, combo, or hybrid builds, and why the format is generally considered slow. This isn't to say decks can't win turn 1 or anything, tons of combo decks can, however, this is what leads to the final point. Combo is generally the best win condition, not to say a deck like Edric, Spymaster of Trest shouldn't beat face to win, but for most decks, combo with differing levels of disruption is the best strategy.
Many playgroups don't use combos, whether they are more casual, frown upon combo, outright ban it, or simply run more beatdown strategies and don't care for combo particularly. This is perfectly fine, and reasonable, but it is the work-around for the aggro problem, while not relying solely on control.
Okay, so now you see the problem with aggro, and why 2/2 cats in essence aren't a wincon, Archangel of Thune can be removed in response to the first Spike Weaver activation, and so aren't as instant win as you thought, and even so, unless you have enough creatures to kill each other player, it isn't going to win the game, as they will simply win on their turn, in a cEDH meta. Since Felidar Guardian combo is too slow generally, and you only run 4 tutors for the Thune-Weaver Combo, it isn't a fast combo deck.
That isn't to say it isn't competitive, you could make it stax, run the fast elf-ramp, and Armageddon until you win, but that still requires a different gameplan.
Again, all of this is meaningless if you don't want to make it stax or fast combo, but without blue, your card draw isn't their for permission control, and that means you aren't able to consistently make this cEDH competitive, but I won't claim it is bad or anything, it is simply a high-powered mid-level EDH deck, and I think that is fine.
On ramp, most of the options you mentioned were sub-par, Tithe, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip, Mirari's Wake all are either too expensive or not impactful enough, 1 mana ramp is where you want to be, the fast rocks, Ancient Tomb/Gaea's Cradle/Gemstone Caverns, elves, etc.
1 month ago
Well, I mean Bolas is one of the most power-hungry and powerful planeswalkers in the game, if that doesn't say cEDH I don't know what does, also RNG doesn't exist in Gemstone Caverns, IE no rolling dice or flipping coins, but if you just mean randomness, I could say the same thing for every card that you only want openning hand and is a bad draw later on, like Sol Ring, or the two leylines, or Mana Crypt.
The essence of Bolas is 'Everything to Win', so the cards like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Tarnished Citadel, Ad Nauseam, Imperial Seal, Mana Confluence, Shivan Reef, Underground River, Ancient Tomb, and City of Brass are more flavorful than cards like Izzet Boilerworks, and also are just good cards.
Jank is generally the opposite of competitive, so why every turn 4 win is supposedly jank, and Laboratory Maniac is supposedly jank too is beyond me.
Also, discard is a mechanic of stax, a key mechanic of that too, if you have ever seen a cEDH mono-black stax deck not running discard, be my guest. It is too powerful an effect not to use if your goal is to stop your opponents from casting spells.
Also, have you seen Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker? He ends games fast, not slow. I turn one any land and Lotus Petal to Flash+Arena Rector him out and it is over, no buts about it, that one player who might have an answer? +3 and their only land is gone, next turn do the same, next turn ultimate him, rinse repeat on the other two players who are still in the game, protecting him from Chain of Vapors and Into the Roils with the Counterspells in my hand, until they are all out of lands, cards, and permanents, and eventually life too, GG.
Also, the original Nicol Bolas, yeah I run him in modern, who else am I gonna turn one out with two Simian Spirit Guides, a Faithless Looting and Goryo's Vengeance, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn? Nah, he blows up their permanents, what permanents are they going to have turn one? Not much, discarding their hand is much better, but obviously I run both.
Point is, I don't think the essence of Nicol Bolas is to be a slow, grindy controlling deck, it is a deck that wins every time, for now and forever, sure, I'd probably argue grixis twin should be the deck for Nicol Bolas, but he'd only be used for the commander, and wouldn't serve a purpose in the deck other than for colors.
You also asked me for advice, so take it or not, but I got the deck to be more competitive and down to 100 cards, like you wanted.