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Darkwater Catacombs Discussion
3 weeks ago
Hey, looks good. Consider digging a little deeper away from undying for budget cards that have great synergy with Marchesa?
Unspeakable Symbol is a good starting point because it can for the cost of life put a +1/+1 counter on any creature. Sage of Fables, counters can be removed to draw cards. Any Wizard that ETB after Fables then gets a counter this includes Marchesa because she's a Wizard. This Wizard interaction has good synergy with Wizards who give you value when they die: Disciple of Bolas(card draw and life gain) and Vindictive Lich(opponent disruption). These Wizards with Fables, Marchesa and a sac outlet is powerful.
No mana cost sac outlets are very much needed to take the most advantage of Marchesa's abilities: Carrion Feeder, Viscera Seer, and Yahenni, Undying Partisan. Both Feeder and Yahenni can put counters on themselves.
- Sage of Fables
- Dack's Duplicate
- Viscera Seer
- Carrion Feeder
- Yahenni, Undying Partisan
- Disciple of Bolas
- Vindictive Lich
- Zealous Conscripts
- Unspeakable Symbol
- Chaos Warp
- Fact or Fiction
- Lim-Dul's Vault
- Exotic Orchard
- Shivan Reef
- Dragonskull Summit
- Graven Cairns
- Sunken Hollow
- Smoldering Marsh
- Darkwater Catacombs
Duplicate is a very good creature clone because it can put a counter on the creature it clones with haste allowing it to be reanimated when it dies returning to clone something else. Conscripts is another value creature who can steal any permanent from an opponent. She has haste getting a counter from dethrone before she dies in combat being reanimated to steal something else. Thraximundar is one of the better top of the mana curve creatures with Marchesa because it has haste and can put counters on itself from your creatures dying or your opponents'.
Terminate and Warp are two budget staple Grixis removal spells in Commander. Fact is a staple blue draw spell since it most of the time gives you card advantage. Vault lets you dig for the cost of life for an important card such as Unspeakable Symbol, River Kelpie, etc. Victimize is a staple budget black reanimation spell. Sac one creature to reanimate two others.
All these budget land suggestions can ETB untapped. You're playing a lot of Basic lands making Sunken and Marsh good for less than $2 each.
Cards to consider cutting:
- Butcher Ghoul
- Cloudfin Raptor
- Ignition Team
- Kothophed, Soul Hoarder
- Overseer of the Damned
- Prince of Thralls
- Rakdos Cackler
- Rakdos, Lord of Riots
- Abyssal Persecutor
- Hound of Griselbrand
- Preyseizer Dragon
- Neurok Stealthsuit
- Obelisk of Grixis
- Vicious Shadows
- Red Elemental Blast
Any five cards in this list can be cut to make 100 cards, but I would start with cutting cards with the highest CMC.
Good luck with your deck.
2 months ago
Cards that I don't like:
Darkwater Catacombs | In a turn 4/5 build, it's too slow. Basically useless in some situations and opposite of mana fixing
Fetid Pools | Enters tapped needs strong abilities, maybe turn 8 cycling would be good, but in a Turn 4/5 build, it's not a turn 1 through 4 land so shouldn't be in there
Great Furnace | I think you can fetch , a single on Turn 1 though 4 is terrible
Tolaria West | Great land, but what does it tutor for you that's a combo card, Mana Crypt is ok, but none of your combos are land based, I wouldn't run this. If you needed to fetch a specific land for a combo would be ok.
I would go down 1 net land to 36 as well.
Devastation Tide | Miracle is too random, want to control your spells not have them control you. And it's a sorcery, as an instant it would be ok.
Cryptic Command has a pretty High CMC with , it's instant so it's better than some of the other sorcery/creatures, but could be a problem. It's VERY good card though, I would keep it worth the hard casting cost.
Scroll Rack mana sponges, it's too random, and too slow for turn 4/5 deck
Tolaria West go down a land!
Tunnel Vision (when used to tutor) >> Mizzix's Mastery! (Downside is it misses Omniscience so need something it can hit to put a card from graveyard into hand, best would be a card like that with flashback) OR Tunnel Vision >> Yawgmoth's Will. If it discards a Past in Flames get a couple shots. I think Kess, Dissident Mage can cast the Overload cost from the graveyard for Mizzix's Mastery too if you do get it looking for the Yawgmoth's Will which then cast the Yawgmoth's Will.
Summary: Harder to tutor items (Enchantment) should be priorities, Necropotence or Omniscience. Kess, Dissident Mage let's you recast and pull another item in most cases to finish the combo Omniscience + Enter the Infinite, lots of tutors pull Show and Tell for you.
Capture of Jingzhou and Temporal Manipulation are good too, but not necessary, you're really just trying to combo win with Show and Tell + Omniscience + Enter the Infinite would focus on getting there.
Frantic Search is better if you have a way to recur-it, like a Nivix Guildmage, but it does give you more control on the discard. The problem arises when you only have 1 card in hand, becomes the same issue I'm sure you experience with the Scroll Rack.
Dreadbore could just be another tutor that pulls Hero's Downfall they do the same thing anyway (or a Yawgmoth's Will if you need to recast Hero's Downfall and have used Kess, Dissident Mage. And it's a sorcery (YUCK)
You need the Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots for Phage the Untouchable and Laboratory Maniac. You could lose the Swiftfoot Boots since you do have Artifact tutors, but I bet they are pulling mana sources not boots.
Temporal Extortion could be wasted spell, since i doubt your doing the extra damage, but in multi-player perhaps it may resolve due to politics.
Time Warp could come out too if needed, high CMC extra turns. Useful for mid-range play though.
Need to research a way to bring a card from graveyard to hand, if it has flashback, that would be AMAZING!
2 months ago
Since my knowledge of Tron's mana base, is somewhat limited, I'll mostly ask you questions so that you can determine which land is the best to provide UB.
Further, at just one or two copies, will you see Darkwater Catacombs often enough in the early turns that they enter untapped? If memory serves Tron tries to draw games out to stall until it assembles Tron, so it's highly probably that you'll see these too late to enter untapped.
Urborg is definitely worth considering. As you say, assuming you are against a non-black deck, Sundering Titan will destroy an additional land. However, how prevalent are black decks in your meta?
2 months ago
What's with Rootwater Depths lol, haven't seen those lands since like ever. There are lots of newer better alternatives you know:
- Watery Grave
- Sunken Hollow
- Underground River
- Tainted Isle
- Sunken Ruins
- Darkwater Catacombs
- Command Tower
In order to get the most of Scarab, I think you should take these cards into account:
- Training Grounds to steal creatures cheaper.
- Heartstone strictly worse, but still helps.
- Illusionist's Bracers to steal more.
- Paradox Haze to double the life loss of your opponents.
- Strionic Resonator see above.
4 months ago
The lands are always important. I have also created a Mairsil list that I haven't posted yet, but I would like to recommend some cheap lands that can help a lot, and also some utility lands. I honestly don't know why you're not running a Command Tower. As for the double color lands that mostly don't come in tapped: Darkwater Catacombs, Shadowblood Ridge, Dragonskull Summit, Drowned Catacomb, Underground River, Shivan Reef, Sunken Hollow, Smoldering Marsh. As for the utility lands, you've got Hall of the Bandit Lord, Flamekin Village and Hanweir Battlements.
5 months ago
Do you get land screwed, color screwed or unable to play cards a lot of the time because lack of mana production? The Avg. CMC for this deck is 4.6, that's really high without playing any ramp. No Sol Ring? I'm kind of confused, do you not like ramp in Commander? Some of your Planeswalkers can ramp, but that doesn't help you if you can't play them.
My suggestions are to add ramp and improve the manabase by cutting a large portion of the come into play tapped dual lands. I understand that Planeswalkers are price expensive and they take up a huge portion of the total cost of this deck, but the manabase is really bad. It would help the deck a lot to fix it.
You're playing green you can advantage of land ramp spells. You can accommodate land ramp by cutting a large portion of the come into play tapped lands such as Elfhame Palace and other lands like it for Basic lands. For a budget manabase with green you're much better off playing more Basic lands and cards that can tutor for the Basic lands then lots of come into play tapped dual lands. The Tri lands are great: Arcane Sanctum, Seaside Citadel, Opulent Palace and Sandsteppe Citadel, but these lands are powerful enough that coming into play tapped while bad is fine. This will speed up over all game play because Basic lands enter play untapped. Other lands to consider are the BFZ duals: Canopy Vista, Sunken Hollow and Prairie Stream. The BFZ lands have good interaction with both Basic lands and Check lands, Sunpetal Grove, etc.
For a budget $30-$40 manabase I suggest playing:
- The four Tri lands
- Four Pain lands: Caves of Koilos, Llanowar Wastes, Underground River, Yavimaya Coast
- Four Check lands: Sunpetal Grove, Glacial Fortress, Isolated Chapel, Drowned Catacomb
- Three BFZ duals: Canopy Vista, Sunken Hollow and Prairie Stream
- Two Filter lands: Sungrass Prairie and Darkwater Catacombs
- Command Tower, Exotic Orchard, Forbidden Orchard, Ash Barrens, Dreadship Reef, Opal Palace
- 5 Plains, 4 Forest, 2 Island, 2 Swamp
Dreadship Reef is a land that uses counters, great with Atraxa. Opal Palace is good with Atraxa because if you use it to play her she gets a +1/+1 counter which she can start proliferating, growing herself.
I recommend this manabase and adding a ramp package of:
- Cultivate, Farseek and Kodama's Reach
- Sol Ring, Fellwar Stone
- Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia
Cornucopia and Chalice use counters which Atraxa can proliferate making these rocks pretty powerful. Even though your playing some board wipes that destroy all artifacts I still think having some artifact ramp is important to play Planeswalkers. It's more important to have the mana to play Walkers than wipe the board.
To make room for these ramp packages I recommend cutting some of the less powerful Planeswalkers because holy shit there's 28 total of them. Walkers like Jace, the Living Guildpact, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Gideon, Champion of Justice and Dovin Baan. Also Praetor's Counsel and Primal Surge are just too mana expensive for the deck. Nevinyrral's Disk, Decree of Pain and Terminus are too slow and your playing a lot of other better cheaper mana board wipes. Terminus while powerful needs some set-up to be, Brainstorm and you currently have no malipulation of the top of your library.
Good luck with your deck.
5 months ago
7 months ago
I'm not sure the mana is right here...
CARD: MANA POOL
Darkwater Catacombs: UB,
Dark Ritual: UBBB,
Priest of Gix: UBBB,
Culling the Weak: UBBBBBB,
Laboratory Maniac: BBBB,
...and now you don't have enough to cast Plunge into Darkness.