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Whenever an opponent loses life, you gain that much life.
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Exquisite Blood Discussion
8 hours ago
I honestly tend to find Bottle Gnomes pretty relevant, as I often lose a lot of life, but I suppose I'm playing enough tutors now to where I can just grab Zulaport Cutthroat or something if that's really such a concern--I suppose I can cut him, though I will miss him.
I'm still kinda on edge about cutting Black Market --my meta is still fairly casual, but I have, in fact, won before with Exsanguinate thanks to all the mana from Black Market against a fairly competitive (but by no means optimized) Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck (and some other peeps). I might find something else to cut for Pitiless Plunderer , but I'd rather not have to choose between both of them. (Also, something worth considering is that Black Market is harder to remove than Pitiless Plunderer , though they'd need exile effects or something in any case).
As for Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood , getting 10 mana isn't a problem for me, but I get what you're saying--it's not exactly the fastest combo available, and my deck probably doesn't slow the game down enough to make it competitively viable. All the same, there's just not that many better mono-black combos.
As for running more tutors and stax effects, well, for one, I actually still want this list to be playable in my meta (it's approaching a point where it's just too cancerous relatively to what the majority of everyone else is playing, believe it or not), so adding Trinisphere and Static Orb and the like would be very unsubtle and super cutthroat (though, yes, that's exactly what would make the deck more competitive, I understand that). Secondly, the list is getting pretty tight, yet again, so I'd probably have to cut some Shirei synergy for that sort of thing, which would probably be worth it, but would make me feel that much more soulless, honestly. Can never seem to strike that balance between not playing a whole bunch of staples and having a synergetic build...
Thirdly, while they'd absolutely be worth it, I'm not playing more tutors simply due to budget considerations. I know that might sound pretty laughable considering the deck costs $830 dollars, but it's the only list I have that I own in paper (well, most of it--waiting for more cards to arrive, as I keep cutting stuff), but I've been building it up over the course of 3-4 years. Budget is no object in cEDH, I know, but it is for me--the most expensive card in the deck is about $75. Spending $100 on a card isn't something I really want to do. I might find something to cut for Cruel Tutor , though (bad as it is).
As it stands, I think Liliana's Shade and Bottle Gnomes are out and Skittering Surveyor and Scroll Rack are in. A marginal improvement--still not good enough, though, you're right. If only I could run Land Tax + Scroll Rack ...
(Oh, and, on a completely unrelated note, this might already be a thing, but I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to combo out with Timestream Navigator in a Prime Speaker Vannifar list. All you'd need is a 1-drop that recurs itself to either your hand or the battlefield, and, so long as you had enough mana and the city's blessing, you could take infinite turns. That might actually be a viable combo in cEDH).
18 hours ago
NoOneOfConsequence shirei is one of the best recursion engines (so if you're beating a dead horse, at least we can expect it from a Shirei player). He provides significant advantage, provided you play an efficient & synergistic gameplan.
Liliana's Shade is 4 mana to tutor for a swamp every turn. Neat, but still it's 4 mana - unless you're going balls to the wall on 28-30 lands, I can't see how this is great for you, as it's an inefficient Skittering Surveyor . You have no other Swamp cards that I can see, therefore no reason to actually run the card in place of a more efficient version.
Black Market is great turn by turn, but pound for pound it's worse than Pitiless Plunderer , as with plunderer you make mana the same turn. Black market requires you to wait an entire turn-cycle before it does anything - and in those 3 turns you're not holding up mana to respond to all of your opponent's threats - basically gambling with the hope of a payoff on your turn.
Sanguine Bond & Exquisite Blood together are 10 mana to win. Flash-hulk is 2 mana. Exsanguinate & Torment of Hailfire are at least 15 each & they don't certify a win as you have no way to make unbounded mana.
Leyline of the Void is unavoidable in this build, as your win con is not coming out until late game, and any hulk deck will win first.
It's admirable that you've found so many creatures that synergise with shirei to hurt your opponents turn by turn. But here, a lot of these are redundant. In a stax deck you need many more ways to hurt your opponent decks. Including Trinisphere , Sphere of Resistance , Winter Orb , would all help your gameplan.
You could use Praetor's Grasp - as it's likely to find a card that will actually win you the game & it's a stax piece.
There are a lot of issues with your list - those t3 decks are usually decks that are unproven (imo). Your shirei deck still needs a lot of refinement for tier 3 to Deem Worthy .
I could go on about many of the other options in your Shirei build, but maybe you should re-read the comments section. I made sure to put a healthy set of options in there for you to consider several days ago.
I'd recommend doing some solid research into the cEDH meta and how cutthroat every design decision needs to be. I think there's a discord called playEDH, or look for some cEDH decks to test against. You'll find out very fast that your shirei build may be good in some metas, but in cEDH it is not enough.
1 day ago
Not to beat a dead horse, but I thought I'd bring up Shirei again (and my deck specifically, The Recursion Nightmare), just because I've actually changed it around a fair bit since last time. Workhorse , Harvester of Souls , Heap Doll , Myr Sire , Diabolic Revelation , Homeward Path , Mindslaver , Arcbound Reclaimer , Sorin Markov , Dictate of Erebos , and Coffin Queen are all out in favor of Midnight Reaper , Mausoleum Secrets , Skyscanner , Dusk Legion Zealot , Sensei's Divining Top , Cabal Stronghold , Petrified Field , Burglar Rat , Liliana of the Veil , Sanguine Bond , and Exquisite Blood .
The wincons are stronger, the mana curve is lower (and more balanced), the cabal-tron package is now super-redundant (with Cabal Coffers , Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth , Vesuva , Deserted Temple , Petrified Field , Cabal Stronghold , and Expedition Map ), the stax effects are stronger, and the utility spells are cheaper. I'd say the deck has gotten at least 12% better, which, admittedly, goes against what I said ealier about the deck being almost perfect (though, in my defense, I hadn't yet taken a good look at some of the cards they've been printing recently--that's the great thing about Shirei, he only gets better the more worthless black commons they release).
I might take out the sanguine bond + exquisite blood wincon for Desecrated Tomb and Torment of Hailfire . Desecrated Tomb is more value, but obviously not really a wincon unless things are going way too well for me, and Torment of Hailfire isn't nearly as straightforward as Exsanguinate , but they might be better, anyhow.
Also, I still stand by Damnation --especially now that I'm playing Midnight Reaper and Dusk Legion Zealot , my life total is kind of a precious resource--sure, toxic deluge might be worth it anyhow, but it also kills my commander (read: I get my board state back after a damnation), so it's not strictly worse--though, I might consider playing deluge over Oblivion Stone , even though that card is my one way of dealing with problem enchantments, for instance.
Oh, and, I considered adding Pitiless Plunderer , but, again, the list is really tight, and I'd rather have Black Market over him, as I don't need more than one color of mana, the mana from Black Market accumulates, and it triggers whenever anything dies (relevant with Grave Pact ).
There are probably still better Shirei decks out there that still wouldn't qualify him for tier 3, but, frankly, even given a casual glance, tier 3 could easily be split up into multiple tiers (or just not have so many commanders crammed in it, and maybe we add a new bottom tier). I mean, Ghost Council of Orzhova and Ambassador Laquatus probably shouldn't be in the same category as Aminatou, the Fateshifter and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic , for instance. All the same, just in case these somehow weren't already obvious, let me detail a few of the more interesting interactions Shirei has with some of the dorks in this deck:
Mesmeric Fiend has an O-ring trick going on where, if we sacrifice him before his first ability resolves, the second ability triggers and does nothing, then we exile a card from our opponent's hand permanently. Doing that every turn with a sac outlet can be pretty good, and if you do it for long enough, you'll have everyone topdecking. I used to play Brain Maggot in this vein, but later learned that that works differently--it's all wrapped up into one ability, so if he dies before it resolves, during resolution, we take a card, the game sees that it's dead, then we immediately return it to their hand. Not very good, obviously.
Coffin Queen has a slightly different but effectively equivalent O-ring trick--if she's sacrificed before her ability resolves, the ability resolves, but since she's dead, the game doesn't remember her as an object and the delayed trigger of the ability can never happen, so we keep the creature permanently. When Coffin Queen comes back, she is, of course, a new object with a different timestamp.
Oh, and, in case this one wasn't obvious, cards like Mindless Automaton work with Shirei because their power is 1 or less when they enter the graveyard, thus triggering Shirei's ability, and their power doesn't become more than 1 until they've already entered the battlefield, as per layering rules.
1 day ago
Loved seeing the deck played on Commander Replay.
Have you considered Dark Prophecy ? Possibly over Kothophed? It's great with all your tokens. In what situations do you really like Kothophed's effect?
2 days ago
I've built a similar deck. If you want to make the deck have an infinite gain/drain loop to win you the game, add in Exquisite Blood . Forget using Defiant Bloodlord , he's too expensive to be hitting only one opponent, Cliffhaven Vampire or Epicure of Blood are much better choices to pair with Exquisite Blood . If you'd rather use Enchantments instead of Creatures to create the loop, use Sanguine Bond which is cheaper than Defiant Bloodlord, but it goes back to only hitting target opponent rather than each.
3 days ago
Thanks for the +1 and folder add, itachi45! I'm very aware of Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood . It's not a good combo because it's crazy slow. The only reason there's 1x Sanguine Bond here is because it works close enough to Tainted Remedy that it could be a hail-mary in the event I can't get a Tainted Remedy down. That said, I have tried to build a SB+EB deck before, just to have something that I could point to that would be almost likely to have a chance of winning. You can see that old decklist here if you're interested. I haven't retooled in a long time, mostly because I think the combo is completely unrealistic in Modern. But for what it's worth, Crypt Ghast seems essential from my perspective. Cheers!
3 days ago
5 days ago
Hmm, some good points here hkhssweiss
I usually like In Garruk's Wake because it's asymmetrical, but you pointing it out made me go "wait, I want my creatures to die!"
Cleansing Nova was in here mainly for artifacts and enchantments since has trouble dealing with them, but I suppose I have a few ways to deal with them. If worse comes to worse odds are good that someone else will deal with the threat.
I guess I do already have cards like Krav, the Unredeemed that are better.
Thran Dynamo was a card that I was thinking about, but I agree that I could do without it.
Seraph of the Scales was in here mainly for the afterlife and possibility for deathtouch, but I agree that it's lackluster.
I guess Thrilling Encore is a bit expensive
Maybe one day you will be in a deck Storm Herd . One day . . .
I suppose there are better ways than Nomads' Assembly
I do like the death trigger on Ancient Stone Idol and that fact that its cost can be reduced. A card to consider taking out though
I'm definitely on the edge about Knight of the Last Breath . On one hand it has afterlife and can be a sac outlet, but on the other it's stats are kind of bad.
I feel like Helm of the Host can do good by cloning creatures with death triggers. (My goal is to make a ton of Elenda, the Dusk Rose 's. But I live in Magical Christmas Land most of the time, so who knows if that will happen).
I really appreciate this. Both you and DrkNinja have brought up good points that have really sped this process along!