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Mox Sapphire Discussion
4 months ago
Hey! Your decklist looks great, it has all of the essential parts down pat (cheap/evasive creatures, powerful ninjas and lots of topdeck manipulation). You could definitely play it as-is, even if it's been a while! But I also want to mention some ideas that I have for potential cuts/additions:
Deep-Sea Kraken : Very unlikely to hard cast, and you can probably win the game before removing all its suspend counters. Instead, you could play Blinkmoth Infusion or Draco , which are equally uncastable, but deal more damage.
Conspiracy and Xenograft : I played these for a long time, but ended up cutting them in favour of more extra turn spells, which are more consistent for closing out the game. My favourites to play in Yuriko are Temporal Mastery which can easily be a Time Walk , and Temporal Trespass which can be cast for UUU, but deals 11 damage.
Bolas's Citadel : A bit of a nonbo in Yuriko decks, which generally want to play super-efficient, high cmc spells. I don't have a direct replacement in mind, but I'll include more suggestions at the end.
Massacre and Toxic Deluge : Yuriko needs creatures on the board more than most decks, so I generally don't play boardwipes that destroy creatures. I prefer to play something like Evacuation or Devastation Tide so I don't lose them permanently.
Teferi's Veil : I'm kinda unsure how this synergizes with Yuriko. Could you let me know if I'm missing something? I'm not super familiar with phasing.
Universal Automaton : A very simple, yet effective ninja
Sorry this got so long, I hope all of my points made sense! Feel free to let me know what you think! Thanks again for the kind words about my primer!
8 months ago
Now cracking a fetch is so much worse than just when Aven Mindcensor existed, which I will still run, or when Notion Thief existed wheels or even just some extra draw was scary, Hullbreacher just is so much worse.
I am cutting Smothering Tithe, and I do love that card but it's just bad in comparison, can't pitch it to Force of Will/Force of Negation, 1 cheaper, flash, means I can drop Enlightened Tutor which I didn't love but sorta ran for a few good options, it's easier to get on my current tutor package, and also has flash.
With 4 flash hatebears, all of which are onesided and hates hard on any lists I know of, but is also cheap and the new ones give me huge benefits, I can get draw, tutor my opponents decks, get treasure tokens, cut off my opponents draw, tutors, and all at flash speed. Insanely powerful.
My Urza list is now going to crush with Hullbreacher cutting draw which giving me tons of Mox Sapphires to give me free cards, and Jeweled Lotus is another Black Lotus/Mox Sapphire depewhen it's drawn. Beautiful.
8 months ago
I find it no coincidence that the majority of posters freaking out in this thread are primarily casual brewers. I have been thinking and discussing this card with friends since it was spoiled, and I think it is far from the death of competitive, and I urge anyone claiming that to think about the actual decks of competitive edh. I think this card will cause the most damage to casual and high powered jank decks, and its impact on cedh will be limited to a small handful of decks that will run it.
It is obviously a powerful card, but the cedh meta is already full of powerful cards. We should begin by evaluating how the card works and is used
- 3 of the same color mana, only to be used on commanders. Outside of some niche cases like using the mana for Glissa Sunseeker, the mana will be used to accelerate into commanders.
- Commanders with WUBRG costs will benefit the least. Commanders with 1 or 2 colors will benefit the most. This is due to how the colored mana goes into casting costs. For example, Kess, Dissident Mage will only be able to get 2 ramp from it, as the cost only allows 2 of the same colored mana to be used. However, the lotus will work well with commander tax and be fully usable anytime after the first time a commander is cast
- If your commander is already in play, drawing a lotus will not advance your game plan in the slightest (this is a very important caveat)
Competitive decks already tend to run commanders low to the ground. Competitive decks also splash harder in 3-5 colors, with 1-2 color decks being less common. You also see quite a few 3 and 4 color partner piles in competitive. Jeweled Lotus has bonus value with double the amount of targets, but once again you are getting lots of waste because the desirable partners are already low CMC to cast. Many will choose to ignore the lotus for their partner piles, most notably Tymna + Thrasios
I firmly believe the biggest splash this will make in competitive is with all-in combo decks and strategies. Having the possibility of a dead draw later in the game if it isn't in your opening 7 is a big turn off for many decks, especially when layering is so heavy and slots are already at a premium. Decks that are all-in don't mind mulliganing to find Jeweled Lotus, and it will do its best work when in the opening 7.
Here is my list of what decks I think will possibly run Jeweled Lotus and why
- Urza, Lord High Artificer: Hit turn 1 Urza's easily. It is a Mox Sapphire if drawn after Urza is already in, negating the dead draw possibility.
- Sidisi, Undead Vizier: This deck is all-in to play Sidisi and find Ad Nauseam. The 3 mana burst can hit a lot of fast Sidisi's, but it can also be useful if Sidisi gets countered and you need to get to 7 mana to try again. Sidisi can mulligan aggressively to find Lotus if it wants to
- Godo, Bandit Warlord: 3 mana towards your 11 mana to win. It is colored, so can be used to play Godo, allowing you to keep hands with exclusively colorless mana. Godo is another deck that can mulligan aggressively for Lotus
- The Gitrog Monster: This deck is very commander dependent, and totally willing to sacrifice cards to ram the commander turn 1 or 2. Once again, this deck will be aggressively mulliganing anyways
- Prime Speaker Vannifar: Get commander in, tap it to win. Hitting turn 1 Vannifars will help the game plan immensely. Helps to recover when you need to play commander a 2nd time for a win attempt
- Elsha of the Infinite: Can use all 3 mana produced, avoids dead draw scenario by playing it off the top. This deck is 100% commander dependent, so having 3 towards playing Elsha a second time is good insurance for the deck.
- Tasigur, the Golden Fang: Able to play Tasigur faster without delving your entire graveyard or having any graveyard at all. Not a huge power swing like other commanders, but a very likely include. In fact, you can use the lotus, then delve it, effectively making it 4 ramp for Tasigur's first cast.
- Muldrotha, the Gravetide: Can't be used as combo back up for LED, but it can come back from the GY for free in case Muldrotha gets removed to make subsequent casts easier. Once again, not a huge power swing but noticeable and likely inclusion, especially since the Muldrotha combos require Muldrotha on the field
- Kraum, Ludevic's Opus: The main partner commander I think that will really want the lotus. Landing this turn 1 or 2 will let the Kraum player quickly and easily bury others in card advantage.
- Tana, the Bloodsower: The only other partner commander I think will really want to auto include the lotus. Getting this out turn 1 can build up saprolings very fast, and it makes the Tymna coming in after extremely live. Will probably only be seen with Tana + Tymna, but that is the primary Tana partner for cedh anyways
Jeweled Lotus may see play in other decks as it is the flavor of the month, but I bet that ultimately many competitive builds will abandon the card. Some decks are uniquely positioned to capitalize on the speed of a commander landing sooner, and those decks will really love the card.
The printing of Opposition Agent will likely cause significantly more problems for the format, especially since Maralen of the Mornsong became a deck overnight. Coincidentally, Opposition Agent shuts down about half of my list of decks positioned to abuse the new lotus, and the half it leaves won't combo out to win as soon as the commander resolves from the fast mana.
Jeweled Lotus is a powerful card, and Wizards should never have printed it. That being said, I firmly disagree that it will kill competitive edh, and I firmly believe it will do far more damage to casual and high powered decks.
1 year ago
Drawing a lot of cards will help get what you need and the tutor card help with that and their are only 2. So you may want to look at Champion of Dusk. This is a good draw card to help you get to the infinite combo you are looking for. Also, a good land would be Castle Locthwain. Just another solid way to draw the cards that you need. You only have one actual swamp and 1 island in the deck however. This would make Castle Locthwain come in tapped if you did not have the swamp out. This also makes Polluted Delta very inefficient. You would only ever use 2 max and then the other 2 are chump. There is nothing wrong having some basic lands. I would try and have at least 6 of each. This way for every 10 cards, you are looking at least 1 of each based on the initial statistics of a randomly shuffled 60 card deck.
Seeing as you have Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Mox Jet, and Mox Sapphire, I assume you are going for fast play. Given that, I would just note that Cryptic Command is great for the options, but it is quite expensive and heavy on the blue. Easy to get mana locked out of this blue spells.
Bitter Ordeal was another thing I wanted to bring up. I'm not sure it works to wipe out a library as you said, or I misunderstand it. I know with Viscera Seer and all the bats, you can scry a lot, but I think the card you scry either goes on top of the library or bottom, not the graveyard. Also, the bat that is sacrificed is a token. It does not actually go in the graveyard. So you could not wipe the deck out this way.
I would encourage using Gifted Aetherborn. It is another great death touch and life link vampire. I think Viscera Seer may not be as useful based on the previous paragraph as you think. That would give you room for the extra death touch and life link. I would really utilize the life link so that all the pay life cards don't end up killing you.
Overall, I think the deck is great. Infinite combos are generally hard to generate, but you have a good path towards it. Sorry if this was too much. Please play with what you enjoy overall.
1 year ago
This combo is super nuts, but in your t1 win, how are you casting Kinnan with only colorless mana? You need GU.
1 year ago
jeacaveo To specifically answer you, I play weekly in a very competitive meta at my LGS in paper. I play against Consultation Hulk Najeela, Gitfrog, TnT Flash Hulk (now Fish Hulk), Brago Stax, Yisan, Doomsday Breya, and all kinds of other stuff. I am aware of the format, and the meta. I have played Azami and Naru Meha and Baral as mono blue decks, no I don't have lists for them on tappedout. Either way, I don't really care if you gatekeep me from "competitive" as long as you respond to my critiques or link cards. Which you didn't. So much along chump, your comment was worthless too.
AlwaysSleepy This list hasn't been updated for 5 months. You can speak about how the meta has changed with the coming of Oracle and how this deck brilliantly handles it, but that doesn't really mean anything to this list because it hasn't been updated. If it handles Oracle, it is by no intentional omission or addition from the brewers. I know you guys absolutely love to claim these brewers are 10/10 never before seen genius brewers, but ayyy lmao I'm going to need you guys to reel it in. This is what I mean when I talk about idol worship and people being mindless. This list is 5 months old. It wasn't good then. It still isn't good now. Defending this to your last breath is a weird hill to die on mate.
Basalt + Rings being considered unplayable is certainly understandable. Its in across two cards with another to start the combo for total. Grim + Power artifact is a half that at . Neither of the combos have an outlet themselves, and both of them produce colorless mana. I'm not arguing that the rings combo is more efficient, it definitely isn't. I'm arguing that Power Artifact is a 100% dead draw outside the combo and Rings gives better value outside the combo. I've playtested this deck. Numerous times. It runs out of gas frequently and struggles assembling and executing the combo. Rings + Basalt is easier to find, easier to recur, and Rings has much more incidental value and can form loops for winning with other cards already slotted, like Codex Shredder. PA is only getting tutored off two cards, Intuition and Muddle the Mixture. Rings is getting tutored off MANY more cards. Even if the speed is slower, the availability and utility is much higher. From the availability perspective, I think it is a much more valuable include. This deck struggles to assemble a win in a timely manner, so make the pieces more fetchable. Even if you disagree with Basalt + Rings, Grim + PA is definitely a weak combo in that PA is absolutely useless without Grim, and you get 2-for-1'd by artifact removal in response to casting PA. Some of the mana cost is negated with Urza too, but more importantly, you're more likely to have excess mana from other artifacts (if you run more than 17 ahahahaha) which helps to power the combo and sustain uses for value. Yes the value from Rings costs a lot, but wow! Urza makes mana! Maybe, if we combine the mana from other artifacts we're already playing, and then use that to pay for Rings activations, we can get ahead!
My biggest reason for including Rings + Basalt was because this deck is just slow as fuck. I understand it can't race against decks with Black, but honestly this $4000 durdle pile can't race at all. Having your game plan be "Untap, upkeep, draw, and that will be a pass from me" is unbelievably stupid. Compare to a deck like Rashmi or Baral, which can actually accrue value from this style of play. When given space, all this deck does is. . . uh . . . hold up mana for counterspells.
Honestly the biggest problem with Workshop is a bad topdeck late game. P.S. this card also makes more sense with more artifacts. I'm not advocating for adding it in this list without adding other cards.
Howling Mine - Lets look. If Urza is in it draws you a card. If Urza is out it draws you a card. Seems like it still works without Urza.
Speaking about the failure mode though, Static Orb may wreck your game worse than 3 draw triggers. If you have Urza get removed while trying to protect, you're most likely tapped out. Not having the mana to interact with the Flash is going to be worse than giving the Flash player 1 more card. Similarly, other opponents are going to have mana difficulties with either of the Orbs to interact with the Flash Hulk player too. This is pretty well known, and the card is still ran. If you think that a colorless Dark Confidant + Mox Sapphire stapled to it with the failure of symmetry instead of asymmetry isn't worth running, we have nothing more to discuss on the matter.
I agree that Narset's Reversal is an over slotted card and should be used mostly in mono color. I think its popularity is because it serves as a Copy Artifact outlet with Dramatic Reversal, as it does here.
About Urza and spinning the wheel, its reusable card draw + play the spell. It doesn't replace your regular card draw, and yes having high counterspell density does cause more bricks from activations. The rest of your argument for this section talks about the "meta and how you can't be agnostic of it". Yeah dude, once again, this deck hasn't been updated in 5 months. Tell that to the brewers.
BUT PITHING NEEDLE DOESNT SEE PLAY SHAPER TOLD ME SO
Yeah dude, of the 400 cards you see in a pod, you only have control over 100. If your maximum power deck only works against maximum power decks, is it really a maximum power deck? Sure, in theory you shouldn't account for Needle, but
- This game being played in paper with real costs to cards means that the vast majority of players do not have 100% access to the cards they should slot, which means they put another card in that slot
- The vast majority of players are not aware of the competitive meta or lists. Those who are enfranchised with knowledge and access most likely are aware of how Needle performs in other formats and consider it here as well.
- A savvy player who loses to a deck that can be shut off by a single card may slot that card when they expect to see the deck again. The meta evolves as players realize how vulnerable this deck is to a 1 cmc card that literally any deck can slot
- Needle variants see play, and players without large card pools may slot more of the same effect. Players may also slot the needle in place of Totem or Linvala, especially if they are Modern players who already have the Needle but not a Totem.
Imagine someone running Kiki combo being shut off by someone's random Ghostly Prison. Sure, that card shouldn't be run in optimized lists, but not being able to handle permanents on the board speaks to bad building. How this deck fares against Needle effects is the same.
As far as blind followers and me shitting on 'em, look at the replies to my posts mate. We have
- Tepid regurgitation post from a fan restating the primer
- 0 decks 1 post guy calling me a fucktard but saying I might be onto something
- You, saying this deck is golden against Fish when it hasn't been updated since 5 months before Fish hit the scene
- Dominican bro saying I've obviously never played competitive because ??? No reason given
- Still no one can explain why this deck has a 90% match to CVT or why it runs only 5 pieces of removal
Lazy, phoned-in deck from 4 brewers who just couldn't be bothered. If this opinion makes you mad, or makes you need to @ me, its because you're basing it off the merit of the names associated with it instead of the cards listed inside it. You can justify it as handling Fish meta, but the list hasn't been updated. Y'all really drink the Kool-Aid, and you drink it all.
1 year ago
Hey! So I have a few suggestions. Feel free to ignore any/all of them:
Cantrips are your friend in combo decks. Preordain and Ponder are the gold-standard here, since they dig pretty deep for one mana. You're including Brainstorm is good, but I'm not sure it's good enough without non-mana intensive shuffle effects (i.e. some form of fetch lands) to make sure you don't accidentally lock yourself with two cards you don't want on top. While cards like Prismatic Vista and Scalding Tarn can be expensive, depending on your meta something like Terramorphic Expanse or Evolving Wilds might be good enough. Flood Plain and Bad River are also worth considering. Other cantrips ( Opt , Sleight of Hand , Serum Visions ...) are ok but should be considered secondary to Preordain and friends.
Grafdigger's Cage is currently one of the best hosers in EDH, and it does not stop Urza's ability (since Urza's ability exiles the card before casting it, you never cast spells directly from your library). I think it's better than Darksteel Relic , since it still taps for mana and can be a turn one play while having a direct effect on the board state. Tormod's Crypt is a similar card you may want to consider. I think Relic of Progenitus is better than Phyrexian Furnace , especially since you're not running Snapcaster Mage .
Everflowing Chalice seems like a good rock. I've never been a fan of Mox Tantalite , since taking several turns to hit the board is a major drawback. Everflowing Chalice is a slightly worse Mind Stone , but you can cast it for zero when Urza is on the field and have a build-your-own Mox Sapphire .
Retract and/or Hurkyl's Recall can act as pseudo- Paradoxical Outcome s for the purposes of rebuilding mana or building storm-count for Temporal Fissure . They're admittedly not as good, but since you're already running Paradoxical Outcome you may want a redundant card for that effect.
You may want to revisit your counter-suite. Consider substituting more efficient cards for Dissolve and/or Exclude , since three mana is a lot to pay for a counterspell. Things like Spell Snare , Dispel , Spell Pierce , Swan Song , Pact of Negation and/or Delay are all good ways to protect your combo without using too much mana.
I think Mystic Remora is probably better than Rhystic Study . First, it comes down faster (T1 or T2), which means it catches your opponents' rocks when they're casting them in the first few turns. Second, four mana is a lot less payable than one, so you're more likely to draw even in experienced metas. Finally, your strategy is typically going to be a combo strategy -- so you don't need a PERMANENT shield, just one that will last long enough to protect you until you go off with Urza.
Cyclonic Rift is the best board wipe in blue. It's $20 nowadays, but if you can afford one you should definitely run it.
Dig Through Time is an excellent card, as is Treasure Cruise (though I don't like cruise as much as dig in combo decks like this, since it sees fewer cards). Running one of them seems like a good idea.
Chain of Vapor is REALLY good. If you can cast it and bounce an opposing stax piece ( Cursed Totem , Collector Ouphe , Damping Sphere ), it rarely gets reflected. And even if it is, you're likely to just be able to recast whatever they bounce on your board. More importantly, you can use it to bounce a bunch of your low-cost artifacts to both net mana and build storm. So... yea.
2 years ago
Just for reference, this is the entire ban list for oathbreaker.
Ad Nauseam , Ancestral Recall , Balance , Biorhythm , Black Lotus , Channel , Doomsday , Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , Expropriate , Fastbond , Gifts Ungiven , Griselbrand , High Tide , Library of Alexandria , Limited Resources , Lion's Eye Diamond , Mana Crypt , Mana Geyser , Mana Vault , Mox Emerald , Mox Jet , Mox Pearl , Mox Ruby , Mox Sapphire , Natural Order , Painter's Servant , Panoptic Mirror , Primal Surge , Primeval Titan , Recurring Nightmare , Saheeli, the Gifted , Sol Ring , Sundering Titan , Sway of the Stars , Sylvan Primordial , Time Vault , Time Walk , Tinker , Tolarian Academy , Tooth and Nail , Trade Secrets , Upheaval , Worldfire , and Yawgmoth's Bargain .