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Mox Jet Discussion
3 days ago
I'm back. Sorry for taking so long to return, but I have been mulling everything everyone has said over, and I have some thoughts. I'd like to keep this dialogue going and reason out our choices.
Firstly, I've updated the Original Post, took my silly pIX list off and put up the running talley. I really like the way the current top 9 looks, honestly, despite that less than 10 pauper players voiced their opinions on it, lol.
Secondly, Modern_Brews, with all due respect, I think the pIX should be a list of the most broken pauper cards, because that's exactly what the Power 9 is. The P9 also doesn't care about representing the color pie fairly, and thus I feel that neither should the Pauper IX. I guess I did make it sound otherwise in my statement above, and my apologies for not clarifying earlier.
Third, Captain_Howel, I would actually argue that all three of the blue cards in the P9 could be called "draw." At the very least, every single one of the power 9 cards do essentially the same thing for a deck. They accelerate it. They give you more mana, cards or turns (which is really just card advantage, imo) than you would normally get, under normal circumstances.
I'm not trying to be argumentative with either of you, instead I'm just hoping to further define what the Pauper IX should be. =) Feedback is welcome!
Now on that line of thought, let's get back to the culmination of our votes in the list in the OP. Let me first say that I personally feel that, ignoring everything else, Lightning Bolt, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe and Ash Barrens all NEED to be on this list, and there's no getting around it. Does anybody else feel this way?
I also feel that Simian Spirit Guide should definitely be on this list alongside Lotus Petal, because like DarkMagician said, it is literally a pauper version of Mox Ruby. It doesn't matter if people aren't playing this card currently, or if it's not "paupular". Not everybody always plays the P9, the same would therefore obviously be true about the pIX, wouldn't it? What does matter is that this card is free , which is crazy good no matter what color it is, and as a pauper player "you should know about this." For the same reasons, I feel Dark Ritual is the pauper version of Mox Jet, and should rank on the list.
I also feel the same way about Apostle's Blessing, but to a lesser extent. I also want to point out that this same line of reasoning (first iterated by DarkMagician above) is exactly why we "all" agree Gitaxian Probe should qualify. Because ANY deck can play it. And ANY deck can play Simian Spirit Guide for a free or a free , and to a lesser extent, any deck with in it can play Dark Ritual.
Next, I agree with Captain_Howel (and eyessky) about Gurmag Angler that it's not an auto-include in decks running . However, it is quite easy to alter most decks, just a bit, to allow 1 or more Anglers. I think that is why people play it so much, and why it got so many votes here. One more vote than Delver of Secrets Flip in fact, and I think that is indicative of how it's slightly harder to alter "just any deck with in it" to squeeze some Delvers in.
Finally, I do think we should all stop and reconsider whether Slippery Bogle should be on this list or not. It's not a game accelerator, like Lotus Petal or Preordain, but it is a super useful creature that should be known to all pauper brewers and builders.
Thanks for your input so far everybody!
3 weeks ago
eaturesAngelic Arbiter- This doesnt seem very helpful. Too expensive, but if you like it, keep it.
Curious Homunculus Flip- This card is VERY good for you. Ramps, then makes everything thats relevant cheaper for you. Strong for price and cost. I would keep this even if I were spending a significant amount of money on upgrades.
Daxos of Meletis- Doesnt fit with the deck theme. If it is there for laughs and you like it, keep it. It can be a very fun card
Deep-Sea Kraken- This is mediocre. Even with the suspend, you could put a card in this slot that does far more for your deck then a unblockable 6/6 that can be easily killed by removal after waiting for it. I recommend you remove it: does not fit the deck in any way.
Diluvian Primordial- Seems expensive to me. I would test how well it works in your playgroup before I judge it. In fairness, the cast triggers from it get you elementals with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper. It would probably result it about 14 power hitting the board for 7, which can definitely be an issue for your opponents. Not to mention the fact that you also get the instants from the cast trigger, but you would definitely have times where the best spells you could get would be Explosive Vegetation and Farseek, which wouldnt help when you have 7 mana. I would put this in the keep for laughs pile.
Godhead of Awe- I LOVE this card. You have a 10/10 Progenitus? Here, have a 1/1 hydra Avatar. Well, I love the original: Humility. The problem with it is the creatures keep their abilities, so that baby Progenitus still has the Protection from everything bit. Which isnt great on a 1/1, but you get my point. I would remove this card in favor for something else.
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- This card is very powerful. It makes almost all of your spells cheaper (sometimes by as much as , the effects stack) while making all of your opponents spells cost more. I would strongly suggest keeping this card.
Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer- This is one of my favorite cards because it was one of the first rares that I owned that I was like This, this is perfect. So I am very biased in saying to keep this card, so keep that in mind. He does give your opponent card advantage though, which you never want to do, but if it stops a Blightsteel Colossus, youll be glad to have it. It is important to know that if he dies, the counters will stay, but the effect will NOT. You will be able to be attacked by any creatures with Bribery counters on it. I say keep it.
Helium Squirter- This is expensive for what it does, even with the ability to give your lands flying. I would replace it with Abzan Falconer. Cheaper, and doesnt tax your mana every time you want to give something flying. I say remove and replace with Abzan Falconer
Herald of Secret Streams- This card is amazing in your deck. All those lands? Well, they had flying. Now? Good luck blocking that 9/9 flying unblockable land. Keep this card, there is absolutely no reason to replace it at this point in time.
Isperia, Supreme Judge- Expensive, and potentially hard to cast. While it gives you card advantage, there are much better options for you deck then this. It also fits with none of the themes you have going on. I would remove it, it has no place here.
Jace's Mindseeker- Seems so-so. It relies a little too much on luck for my taste, but if you enjoy the card, I guess you could keep it. It does trigger Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper, but only if you hit an instant or sorcery spell, which against some decks has a very low likelihood. Remember, you only get the top five cards of the deck. I would remove this card.
Kami of False Hope- This is bad. It is a fog effect on a creature. You lose the surprise that you get from Fog in exchange for nothing. There are much better cards for your deck. Even Ethereal Haze is better, and only because you can get a 3/3 out of it. I would strongly recommend removing this card, it gives you nothing. (I am not suggesting you add Ethereal Haze. Dont.)
Knight of the White Orchid- For the longest time, I thought this card was called Knight of the white Orchard. Needless to say, I was wrong. I think this card is very powerful. It ramps in white, a color that doesnt get much love for ramp. If you play it well, you can get very ahead with this, even if it doesnt seem like much to get an extra land. It is. It can also fetch your Hallowed Fountain or Prairie Stream to get blue mana, as it doesnt specify basics. It can sometimes be a little difficult to cast on turn two, but not so much that it becomes an issue. Just to take care to play a land AFTER you play it, because you need to have less lands than an opponent. It feels bad to play a land, try to cast this, and get a 2/2 out of it because you misplayed. I would strongly recommend keep this card, ramp is so important.
Novijen Sages- This creature seems bad. Removing two 1/+1 counters for a card seems bad, especially considering it costs 6 to cast. This creature seems very bad to me. I would remove it.
Quicksilver Gargantuan- This costs 7. For a 7/7. It copies something, sure, but it doesnt fit the deck, and it is too expensive. I would say to replace it with another card. But if you enjoy it, keep it. Remember that EDH/Commander is about having fun with your favorite cards.
Resolute Archangel- This is bad. It costs 7 and the lifegain is questionable at best. Only play it if you regularly get use out of it. I would remove it.
Reveille Squad- This seems like it could be good. Attacking with your lands, then pulling them back to block is good. Sort of like vigilance for everything else. I would keep it, seems good. The card would untap everything else unless you cheat it into play as a trigger to being attacked. Here is what I found for how it works Reveille Squad triggers when you are attacked, namely when one or more creatures are declared as attackers against you, which is the first thing that happens in the Declare Attackers step. So you must control Reveille Squad before you opponent attacked, for its ability to trigger. The latest you could bring in the Squad in order for its ability to be relevant is during the Beginning of Combat step. (stolen from silentstormraider on MTGSalvation). I would keep it, seems annoying for your opponents.
Solemn Simulacrum- There is nothing to say here, this card is almost always amazing. It ramps, color fixes, and draws cards, what more could you ask? I would keep this.
Surrakar Spellblade- This card seems like if you could hit someone, it would be great. The emphasis there is on the if. Most decks are going to have something to block it with, so if you dont have a good way of getting it through, Id be wary. Note that it is not a may ability, so you may deck yourself, although that is unlikely. I would test this card for how effective it is before judging if it should stay or not. If you routinely cant get through with it, toss it.
Taigam, Ojutai Master- YES! This card is excellent for you. This not only makes all of your instants and sorceries uncounterable, it DOUBLES the number of counters you get from Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper because rebound has cast triggers. So at your next upkeep, youll not only get the spells again, youll also get more counters. I immediately thought of this card when I saw Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper. You do have to attack with him, but I think his upsides are so high that it doesnt matter very much. Keep in mind that after you declare attackers and attack, you can cast an instant with it and get it rebounded next turn. Sometimes that extra instant is more important than keeping Taigam, Ojutai Master alive. Excellent choice, I would not remove this card.
Talrand, Sky Summoner- This card is just like Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper, only with flying drakes. There is no reason to remove this card. It has the protentional to be a very good card. I both like this and think it is a good card. Keep it.
Vortex Elemental- This card seems bad, rather slow. And to routinely get the effect, you are going to need to spend 6 mana on it, which feels bad. If it works or you like it, keep it. I would do some testing with it before removing it, but there would be a good chance that I would remove it.
Boompile- If you are going to want to destroy everything, you dont want a 50% chance to miss it. I would remove this, only keep it if you enjoy it. There is a 99% chance that it will fail you right when you need it. NOTE: See Perilous Vault.
Darksteel Plate- One of the most important things is to protect Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper, and this is a good way to do it. Destroy effects and damage will not affect him anymore. This is a good card, keep it.
Pearl Medallion- This card seems good. Ive personally never liked the medallions, casting lots of spells can benefit from this. I would look into if you have a Sapphire Medallion, they stack on white/blue spells. If this does work, keep it.
Perilous Vault- It feels a little like a trap. You need 5 mana to cast it, and it can be annoying to keep up that mana all the time. Although that shouldnt be an issue considering that most of your spells should be instants, so it is better in your deck than most. The exiling bit bugs me: you get all of your things set up, then you go and get them exiled, never to come back. But it does the same thing for everyone else, because symmetrical effects are always fair, like Balance or Upheaval. Keep this card if it works for you, but it has never worked well for me. Removal is important in almost all cases. NOTE: I WAS WRONG. All NON-LAND permanents. Keep it. Very good with all of your lands.
Prismatic Lens- This card may provide color fixing and a little bit of ramp, but I dont think that it is good enough to fit into the deck. It isnt a very good card. I would remove it.
Celestial Flare- Good cheep removal. If this is what you have, it is fine. In the future you may want to replace it as edict (originally from the card Diabolic Edict) effects often dont get what you want to kill. Do keep in mind that you can target a player that is attacking another player, not just you. Hydra coming to kill Bob? Save him and annoy someone all at the same time!
Crippling Chill- Seems okay, but slow and not super effective. You want things that are going to do things to your opponents without hitting you. I would recommend removing this.
Disdainful Stroke- Good counterspell. Nuff said. Probably keep it.
Dive Down- While this spell works as a protection spell, it isnt super effective. +0/+3 and hexproof just doesnt affect the board state at all. Having a counterspell here would be more versatile and probably helpful. It feels like it would often be a dead card in your hand. I would take this card out.
Essence Scatter- A fine counterspell, I would probably keep it. Maybe change it to one that hits all kinds of spells, not just creatures. Keep.
Immolating Glare- While this is generally better than Celestial Flare, I would change this out for another spell, as this doesnt get around indestructible or protections. One for ones are fine, but two, three, four, or five for ones are much better, and in EDH, those are not too difficult to come by. I would change this card out. Not bad, just not good.
Negate- This falls into the same boat as Essence Scatter, doesnt hit everything, and often you will find that you have the opposite of the one you need. Im wary of limited counterspells. They seem sort of like a trap. Again, if you dont have something better, keep this, it isnt a bad card, just limited. I would keep it for now.
Opt- This card is okay, not great, but not terrible. It draws and scrys, all good. It just doesnt do more than replacing itself and a limited top deck manipulator. I would replace it soon, but isnt too big of an issue.
Pongify- This is good. Removal in blue is rare. And the ape shouldnt be an issue for you compared to what you had to deal with before. This card is very strong, keep it.
Pressure Point- This card is mediocre at best. It just doesnt do much. There are other cheap options. This card just doesnt do almost anything. I would replace this soon. I do like the flavor text.
Prismatic Strands- This is a good card. It comes back as another counter generator from Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper, which is good. It is also notable that it protects from more than combat damage. It protects from a whole colors damage, which can be helpful. It doesnt give protection from that color, just protection from that colors damage. Those creatures can still block you. I dont see why you should remove this card now, it seems fine. Keep this for now, you may want to remove it later.
Restore the Peace- This card is a token destroyer. They just turn into little wisps of air. I think you should see how this works in practice and playtest it some, but it might be very good, depending on your playgroup. IMPORTANT: you can use this after Bob gets massacred by Spikeys bum-rush of 70,000 goblins on turn three. It will get all of those goblins, leaving you scot free (except that it was turn three and there were 70,000 goblins. They WILL be back, goblins always are.) Restore the Peace doesnt need to hit you, just deal damage. I would keep this for now.
Send to Sleep- This card is another card that I would recommend you replace. It doesnt do much and there are much better options. Tapping this is not going to help as much as you think it will help. I would remove this card too, but if you need a hundredth card, leave it in.
Sphinx's Revelation- This card is great. It not only draws you cards, it gets you life, too. My only worry is that you wouldnt have enough mana to make it great. But just imagine it, Twincasting it for 10 cards? Delicious. I would not remove this card, as it just gets better and better the more mana you have.
Think Twice- This card is already good, and it only gets better with the extra cast triggers for more elementals. It draws cards and makes creatures!? Great!
Twincast- This card can be extremely funny and very good. Say someone casts a Boundless Realms and you copy it. You get all of those lands too, but only as many as you would get as if you casted the spell. Spell copiers are one of my favorites! If you are ever having issues with someone where you are trying to counter a spell and there is a counterspell on the stack, you can use this to copy that counterspell! I love this card and wouldnt remove it. Kicker effects stay on the spell as you copy it.
Wing Shards- This card is worse than Celestial Flare, it doesnt hit blocking creatures and costs more. Keep in mind that two for ones are good in EDH. I would remove the card from the deck if I were you, but isnt top priority.
Angelic Gift- An okay card. Not the worst, not the best. Giving something flying can be good, but I think this card is just taking up a lot in the deck that could be filled with better things. I would remove it, but place no importance on removing it. It is functional.
Authority of the Consuls- This card can be so good against some decks. Tokens? Gain some life and they enter tapped. It has such potential for value and hosing hasty dudes. If I were you, I would keep this card, but I have a large personal bias for it. I won a prerelease once from it. Actually, Ive won two sealed tournaments with this card I like it. Keep it if you like, it isnt bad at any rate.
Cartouche of Knowledge- This seems too slow. I really am against cards that only affect one creature if they dont do much. In voltron, this might be a different idea, but this isnt a voltron deck. It does draw a card! I would remove it when I got the chance.
Detention Sphere- This card absolutely destroys tokens. I would keep this for the removal it can provide and the situational ability to ruin somebodys plans. I would call this a good card. Keep it.
Embargo- This card is excellent in the deck. I didnt realize that this card existed, but it does and the untap step called, they want everyone elses creatures back. I think losing two life a turn for this is fine. It stops everyone elses artifacts, creatures, tokens, and most anything. The only deck it wouldnt affect is Lands, and even still. Keep this card, it is almost certainly great for you.
Trail of Evidence- This seems okay, drawing the extra cards from your spells can be good. And it only costs 3 to cast, which is almost nothing. I would keep this card, seems like it could be very strong. But dont be too surprised if it is underwhelming, that may be an issue. It might be just too slow. But try it out.
Curse of the Swine- This spell has always seemed very silly to me. I would keep it if I were you, it can act as good removal and is a good spell in general. It can target your creatures too, if they are being targeted by something. I would keep this spell, good and funny.
Displacement Wave- Now this, this is Magic! This card is AMAZING. You never need to worry about your own creatures with this. This was on my cards to suggest list. The fact that this doesnt hit your lands is straight value. Excellent choice.
Expropriate- This cards art is another amazing art. It has the True-Name Nemesis, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald, and items from Selvala, Marchessa, Grenzo, and Muzzio. The art is GREAT! And then there is Leovold, Emissary of Trest, my little card hoarder. This spell itself is good too. Extra turns or your opponents best stuff? Win-win. I would keep this, it will win you games if you can cast it. If.
Planar Outburst- Die SCUM. This is so good for your deck. Do Not Remove This. It will do work because it doesnt kill your lands. For the love of all things sacred, keep this in the deck.
Rise from the Tides- This is another good card. Lots of tokens for you based on the numbers of instants and sorceries that should be in the deck. This will probable be a good deck, but I think it requires playtesting for a true evaluation of how good it is.
Treasure Cruise- Good card draw for one mana. This will draw you cards. I think you should keep it.
Ugin's Insight- There is a good chance here that you wont have the chance to scry more than 4 cards due to the average converted mana cost of the deck, but drawing three is nothing to scoff at. I would recommend keeping this card.
Windfall- Another fun card. Dropping this after youve dumped your hand of spells and making Spikey discard all the goblins he had in his hand is so satisfying. This card will almost never be a dead card in your hand. An Cyclonic Rift than this is devastating. Your opponents will have their board states ruined. If you have a hand of bad cards? Wheel. Keep this card if you enjoy fun.
Going to go ahead and say that this looks fine. Dont worry about spending lots of money on a mana base, spend that money/trade value on cards. This is not the most important part of the deck. Budget mana is better than budget cards. Dont worry about this.
The deck is a good start. I think that there are too many creatures and too few instants and sorceries. The reason why too many creatures isnt good is that it takes up Instant/Sorcery slots which can have better things in them. Replacing some with card draw would probably also help. There seems to be an emphasis on tapping things, which I think it may be a good idea to let go of. Tapping things down is going to serve you less than killing the creatures outright or making your board state better to the point that their cards cant affect you. Also, working on synergy with cards like Planar Outburst will be much better than having random cards in the deck. Trust me. In EDH, synergy is king. Nothing is better. Except maybe casting Teferi's Protection with mana floating to cast Balance. Wait That is synergy You would also need to cheat the Balance into play somehow, as it is banned in EDH. What I would recommend is ramp. Without ramp, you are not going to be able to do anything at a rate that other people cant stop. Refining your focus and adding ramp will serve you well. Oh, and also get rid of some of the not-so-good instants, I think you may have a few too many. Maybe take out the Fog effects too, they generally have less impact than other cards. Please dont let my suggestions take the fun out of the game for you. Having fun in EDH is the point after all, if you arent having fun, why are you playing? And so, here are my suggestions for the deck.
NoneI have more comments, but have hit a limit. The recommendations will be in the next post.
1 month ago
So, I think ramp is really important. Mox Diamond is very good; although you correctly point out the drawbacks with it, those drawbacks don't make it a bad card. Is it worse than Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, and Mox Pearl? Yes, but it's still very good a lot of the time.
Cutting Ponder seems fine; I've ended up cutting all the cantrips from my list. It probably hurts consistency a little bit, but this is a fine place to start. You may later identify something that's less integral to your strategy to cut and the ponder comes back in, but that's fine.
FWIW, I think you want basically all the playable turn-1 ramp you can get. cEDH is a format dominated by fast combo decks, many of which try to win on turn 3. Having an extra mana on turns 1 and 2 is pretty critical to stopping those decks.
2 months ago
As the banned lists for EDH and German Highland quite different, I don't think that this is fixing the problem. So just look at the difference...
Banned in EDH and German Highlander (13)
- Ancestral Recall
- Black Lotus
- Gifts Ungiven
- Library of Alexandria
- Mox Emerald
- Mox Jet
- Mox Pearl
- Mox Ruby
- Mox Sapphire
- Time Vault
- Time Walk
Legal in EDH not in German Highland (17)
- Birthing Pod
- Chaos Orb
- Falling Star
- Mana Crypt
- Mana Vault
- Mind Twist
- Mystical Tutor
- Natural Order
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Sol Ring
- Strip Mine
- Survival of the Fittest
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Vampiric Tutor
Legal in German Highland not in EDH (25)
- Braids, Cabal Minion
- Coalition Victory
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
- Leovold, Emissary of Trest
- Limited Resources
- Painter's Servant
- Panoptic Mirror
- Primeval Titan
- Prophet of Kruphix
- Recurring Nightmare
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
- Sway of the Stars
- Sundering Titan
- Sylvan Primordial
- Tolarian Academy
- Trade Secrets
- Yawgmoth's Bargain
2 months ago
Also 5 Titan-esque creatures seems like too many, especially because you don't have much acceleration. I know grindy decks can go long, so its nice to have some beef at the top, but that seems like too many. Maybe cut 2 or 3.
Demonic Tutor is nice, but it doesn't really do that much for you to warrant having 4 points. If you can swing it, I think that having Mox Jet and Mox Emerald would help you more than the Tutor and Strip Mine, but I know that's big ask.
Power aside, I think your deck would benefit from having some more acceleration, with more than half your deck being 3 and 4 drops.
I know a lot of Highlander is seasoning to taste, but I'd try to work in Fatal Push and/or Flame Slash, because they're good and lowers your curve some. I'm also a mark for Flametongue Kavu and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, maybe over Bloodline Keeper.
3 months ago
Thank you for your time and your detailed answer! It has been very helpful.
My question regarding the mana elfs came up, because I am playing with the german highlander banlist (http://www.highlandermagic.de)
Our meta is diverse with different and changing archetypes, but I haven't seen a GB Rock around so far. Anyhow, I currently face Ux Control (Izzet, Azorius) and RDW in approx. every third match. Overall I have quite good results against the creature style midrange decks and can beat RDW. Now I want to work on the weaknesses.
Running one or two mana elfs seemed to me like an okay replacement. However, I am not sure if they'll stay longer. I just don't see replacement options for the Mox's at the moment.
I don't consider Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, because I feel like the speed isn't really worth the card disadvantage in this archetype. I have tried different numbers of mana elfs. These work better in midrange creature decks (like Jund, Abzhan, 4c Goodstuff), where curving into 4-drop in turn 3 and then protecting your board state is the key (or in elfball decks etc.).
If you have a good advise on the replacement question, I'll be happy to hear it!
Everyone keeps telling me it's crazy not to play Deathrite Shaman, but in the end I came to the same conclusion. I prefer more solid and reliable ramp, lifegain and even graveyard hate. Some players add ABU duals just for using the flexible options of the Shaman, but I haven't really missed him so far. Personal preferences, I guess.
I can also confirm your rating of the planeswalkers, even if still kinda undecided. Vraska, Relic Seeker is out for me, too. Nissa, Vital Force was okay, but mostly ended using the +1 ability with no additional board presence. Garruk Wildspeaker is better in the previously mentioned midrange creature style decks. Sadly, he makes tokens with the -1 ability, so still unsure about him. Since the purpose of Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath is creating sustainable board presence, maybe Grave Titan could fit the role. He is one mana slower, but it's 10 power for 6 mana and provides a more aggressive strategy. After three rounds, Grave Titan and Zombies have attacked for 42 life, Ob Nixilis for 15.
I am curious to see what changes you'll make in the future.
Last but not least, I will most likely include Thrun, the Last Troll to improve the matchups against Ux control decks. Unfortunately, he has no direct ETB impact. Still, Thrun is hard to handle for other control decks and he was okay for me so far.
4 months ago
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hex Parasite
4x Black Lotus
4x Mox Jet
4x Lotus Petal
4x Sol Ring
7 months ago