Force of Negation
If it's not your turn, you may exile a blue card from your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Counter target noncreature spell. If that spell is countered this way, exile it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard.
|Want (2)||JohnTubaina ,|
Printings View all
|Modern Horizons (MH1)||Rare|
Combos Browse all
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Force of Negation occurrence in decks from the last year
Latest Decks as Commander
Force of Negation Discussion
5 days ago
I was a bit intrigued so I threw a list together to test it for a couple of games against E-tron and Jund (my typical standards against which I first test new Modern decks) and the results of 3 games was actually quite promising. Silent Scepter took them all (granted it was going first in each game, but winning on the play against meta staples is the first hurdle a new concept should be able to overcome). I moved the concept to Bant to better play along the Tempo axis, and the exact list I tested was this:
Planeswalker: 3 Teferi, Time Raveler
Sorcery: 4 Serum Visions
Artifact: 4 Isochron Scepter
Don't actually know what the sideboard should look like but I figure cage is solid into Dredge, Lukka combo, and Neoform combo with potential to be useful in matchups where opponents are playing Uro, Kroxa, or Snapcasters as well. A couple extra paths for more aggro oriented strategies that land creatures before tempo control elements come online on turn 2 (Boggles, Hardened Scales, E-tron, Death's Shadow, Prowess, etc). Veil versus any deck running targeted discard or removal like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Tropy, or Fatal Push (Grixis, Jund), And a couple of extra countermagic options to defend against other targeted removal like Abrade, or opposing spell based tempo concepts like Burn. Gotta say, even though I haven't play tested this idea ton, it does seem an idea with quite a bit of merit in Modern these days. Certainly has the potential to be a strong performer in the meta up to the point Teferi gets it's deserved ban.
5 days ago
Interesting idea. Might be something to it.
Definitely an idea that could make good use of a 4x Gemstone Caverns build as it will essentially be a tempo based concept. Remand and Failure/Comply are ideal fits to fight along that axis and simply keep boards clear aside from lands until you land Scepter+Silence. Dealing with Chalice of the Void, targeted discard, and cheap instant speed artifact removal strike me as the most reasonable answers to the strategy, so cards like Veil of Summer, Miscast, and Spell Pierce hold a lot of value as does Force of Negation. Grand Abolisher, while an odd fit for a competitive Modern deck, might be an ideal fit for this type of concept to offer a 2 cmc lockout component in addition to Teferi at 3. Bant might be a better color combo for the idea, but it'd be tough to say without doing some serious testing.
1 week ago
I experimented quite a bit with Esper Shadow a few years ago, but this was after the rules change regarding negative life so I do not have experience with that type of a set up. However, I do have a few suggestions about other versions of the shell! The list I ran was a little slower and more controlling, but it may be worth looking into one or two options:
Ranger-Captain of Eos--> If you are using Spoils of the Vault as a way to find Death's Shadow, I will highly recommend Captain in that slot instead! It's a direct tutor and it's a silence effect if need be against, well, anyone! This card was an over performing all-star for me when I ran Esper colors, probably my biggest suggestion for this list.
Unearth--> Is this card a strict upgrade to Orzhov Charm? I initially debated/ran charm, but that was before Unearth was reprinted into modern. This card is fantastic with all the creatures in the deck (lets admit it, Street Wraith doesn't count) and can allow for fun play patterns with Captain if you include him with tutoring and interfering with your opponent!
Opt--> I know you hear this one all the time, this is a preference call. Does the scry two help you much? Again, my list was more controlling and a little slower, so the instant speed was a big help for me. I fully understand the serum visions addition, just food for thought.
Again, I never played this list before the rules changes regarding negative life. However, Esper Shadow is a deck that I love and I might even consider it a pet deck of mine! I have recently swapped over to Esper Mentor again, since that was the deck that got me into esper tempo styles of play. Force of Negation and Frantic Inventory are insane in that list, not nearly as good here though! Best of luck!
2 weeks ago
Hey pskinn01! I’ve got a bit of an odd suggestion. Since you said you had a few friends that might be interested in card alters, and I know you have an inkling for them yourself as well, I happen to have an interesting proposal. I’m trying to build Modern UW Control on MTGO and Force of Negation is a huge hurdle for me at the moment. I would be willing to do 15 card alters for 3 Force of Negation on MTGO (or the equivalent ~260 tix), coming to about $17 per alter. These alters could be any complexity, including full/alternate art, or just simple border extensions. What do you think about this?
I also have a small few alters already completed, such as a Crucible of Worlds that might help fill the gaps if you have any interest in those, as it may help expedite the turnaround time. :) I’ll have to double check exactly what I still have.
I’d also be willing to entertain smaller deals as well if need be, for example 2FoN/10 alters or even simple cash if that works better.
2 weeks ago
Hey man! I have some suggestions. Feel free to ignore any/all of them as you see fit:
I think you should include Sensei's Divining Top. It's really good at topdeck manipulation, and activating it in response to Yennett's trigger can help you find the spell you want to cast for free.
Brainstorm is underplayed in EDH, so I'm glad to see it in your list. I think you need more shuffle effects though before it becomes really busted. Generally people do this by including fetches and duals like Flooded Strand, but those can be very pricey for EDH. I think slow fetches like Bad River, Flood Plain and Rocky Tar Pit are also good, and merit consideration. Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse are also good options as cheaper versions of Prismatic Vista.
Ponder and Preordain are the other cantrips usually included in blue lists, and I highly recommend them for your list, too. Filtering your draws can let you run fewer lands, which in turn increases your hits with Yennett.
As mentioned in (3), I think 42 lands is too many. In general, I try to play 33-34 at most outside mono-green land-drop decks. Running artifact ramp instead of the extra few lands makes it so that you can ramp up by more than one mana each turn. That said, I strongly dislike 3-drop rocks in EDH; it's not that they're bad, it's that 2-mana drops are available and way better. The best ones are Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Mana Vault etc. but like the fetches, these tend to be a lot of money. If you aren't allowed to use proxies (and aren't loaded af), try things like Arcane Signet, Talisman of Dominance, Talisman of Dominance, Talisman of Hierarchy, Fellwar Stone, Everflowing Chalice, Mind Stone, Dimir Signet, Azorius Signet, Orzhov Signet... You can't cast these off Yennett triggers, but you can't cast the lands they'd be replacing either. Additionally, you don't really want to be hitting rocks off the triggers, but more things like In Garruk's Wake or Behold the Beyond.
Countering combo decks generally depends on your meta, but cheap counters are a good way to push the deck harder. Mental Misstep is surprisingly good (in my experience), since it can counter Sol Ring, Silence, Demonic Consultation etc. Force of Will and Force of Negation are also expensive, but the best in the business. Spell Snare is good (it counters Flash and a bunch of other combo nonsense; Spell Pierce, Swan Song, Drown in the Loch and Narset's Reversal are also good.
If you're looking for more permanent-based disruption, you're in the right colors. Narset, Parter of Veils is good, as is Counterbalance (especially with Sensei's Divining Top). Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is good (she nails opposing Force of Wills and ramp). So are things like Containment Priest, Aven Mindcensor, Ashiok, Dream Render... Hatebears are great.
Mystic Remora is a good way to draw cards and disincentivize storm players.
Right. That's all I got. I hope it helps!
2 weeks ago
TypicalTimmy - Remand is clearly designed for Modern, not just draft. Remand appears in a whopping 10.1% of Modern decks, with an average of 3 copies being run in decks where it appears. It is the 5th most common counterspell in Modern, and most of the cards that beat it--Cryptic Command, Force of Negation, and Archmage's Charm--were all printed after Remand.
There is a reason Remand got a Modern Masters reprint.
3 weeks ago
I don't think Force of Will is powerful enough to ban. Force of Negation probably will be but since no one currently plays spellchaser there is no data to look at. I think currently nothing else will be banned until people actually play the format so there are actual numbers to look at.
Thanks for the suggestions!
3 weeks ago
I mean, sort of, you forgot a ton of the rules, and randomly tossed in pet cards. 75 cards, not 70 as you stated, interrupts aren't cards anymore, I actually briefly mentioned AEther Snap separately, and you assumed that Chaplain's Blessing is useful, despite 0 lifegain synergies existing that I know of, outside of False Cure, which would theoretically be used with Beacon of Immortality, additionally Angel's Grace/Ad Nauseam will likely be a popular build, and so will Scapeshift lists.
I honestly don't think you meant to put Rakdos Charm as relevant, I mean, it hits graveyards, but Scavenger Grounds does it, is useful in other situations, and is colorless, and gives mana, and every deck can use it. Overrun wouldn't be competitive if we even did have creatures and Fog seems like you are completely kidding. There are no non token creatures, only bad token producers outside of lands and a few possibly useable builds as side wincons. Anger of the Gods is again, not a relevant card really either.
Similarly, Swords, Push and Path (Especially Path) are really bad cards in this format, where there are only tokens. Effects that are more versatile specifically and can hit lands, as each deck is effectively required to be based on those has to run them, and few decks really even use manlands, as they slow the list, and land destruction does it better.
Remember that Swan Song also will often be a worse Flusterstorm that just gets hit by Mental Misstep (This is a Misstep format, so the entirety of the format is based around it) and Veil of Summer. Due to Life from the Loam being the only real engine aside from flashback based cards, and the fact that ever single spell hits the yard upon resolution rather than the battlefield, and most people will see the graveyard as a resource outside of Loam too. The best abusers are Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Cling to Dust, which cleans up loams and acts as a draw engine for cheap black discard decks based on Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, etc. Then there is Mystic Sanctuary, which adds so much flame to the fire, as it layers with both Scapeshift and Life from the Loam builds.
That backbone, along with some control tech for the format (Force of Will, Force of Negation, Miscast, Echoing Truth, Cryptic Command, Archmage's Charm, etc.) made the Simic Land Control build you claim I made, and called "loam". I turned it for the meta game's adjustment to it after building the rest of the possibly abuseable archetypes.
One of these tests included tons of Ad Nauseam Storm builds, but it flopped with the Mental Missteps in the format. They can take the loss of some rituals going, or even trade them for their own missteps occasionally, but the fact that every half decent list ran 4 free counterspells just meant that wheel-based builds flopped too.
In fact the format is so aggressively focused on lands being engines, loam, Scapeshift, and the other land builds that the only reasonable combos, which were depths, that got crushed by Archmage's Charm and Cryptic Command in the Control builds, and most other lists packed enough Field of Ruins or Ghost Quarters to still be just fine.
Look, you didn't really read up on GoblinElectromancer's format, you misread what shadow63 said, as he never implicated that he solved the format, just said, quote: "So burn or mill or tokens?" And nothing else on it, and you seemingly tossed a ton of janky filler cards as your choices for powerhouse cards, using the same terminology I used to describe a completely separate group of cards, and then miscredited me on multiple points claiming random things I think everyone immediately knew as "breakthroughs."
Despite the 10+ hours straight I spent since the banlist of the format's release designing and using multiple geometric calculators (had to make one on my own for Loam calculations and 75 card opener testers), attempting to check which build had the most room to improve and grow, I landed on Simic/Bant Lands Control, and solved the format's boogeyman. Yes you still somehow claim the only two decks are yours and mine, despite me proposing over 8 decks and in this bringing up another I didn't feel the need to previously. There are many more than 2 decks, one of which being a worse version of a good deck.
P.S. for all people that want to try the format.
Don't assume the format is solved for good, just that a singular deck seems to be absolutely busted and will beat everything else we have come up with. Intuition depths is my current brainchild, working to take Dark Depths, Life from the Loam, and Thespian Stage, in a Sultai build optimized to cheaply interact while having a list almost entirely based on card advantage and disruption, a more tempo based build rather than just wincons and control like Simic/Bant.
If the shell just gets added to Simic/Bant, I won't be surprised. Surgical Extraction is currently the best anti-loam card I know of, with Extirpate and Cling to Dust being strong avenues the decks trying to counter Loam can use as well. Divert and Misdirection are incredibly powerful however and can be used against them, as they also hit all of the counter magic, burn, discard, etc. in the format.
The format is cool to tinker with but is mostly done currently. If a ban comes tinker around in it, it seems cool!
The Stifle -> Lotus Field -> arcane storm is super viable, and Sylvan Scrying, Crop Rotation and Past in Flames are all in the format, so try it. It doesn't work amazingly because of how much free countermagic is in the format, Flusterstorm, etc. but still, resolve a Veil of Summer in an opportune moment and go for it!