jaymc1130 Deckling

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It’s gotta be Primeval Titan, right? Banned in some formats, competitive success across almost every single format, entire deck archetypes dedicated to and centered around the card, powerful card that generates value on cast as well as value from being a threat and triggers on attack.

This has to be the best 6 cmc green card of all time, and it really shouldn’t be much of a contest.

I get that’s banned in EDH, but that should be an obvious indicator that it’s easily the best card in green at 6 cmc in the format.

You'd have two real options if Griselbrand was legal in EDH, either running him in some sort of reanimator/cheat into play style deck (probably Thrasios/Tymna) where you run all the Neform style effects you can and all the Entomb/Animate Dead effects you can. Or you could run him as a mono black commander and do as SynergyBuild stated and just ritual him out as fast as possible. The reanimator/cheater style deck would likely be more effective in todays meta simply because the quality of cards hit would be significantly better. The second Grisel hits the board it's going to be Swords or Trophied or Pongified, so you'd have to be activating his ability and reacting at instant speed to keep him around and having access to more colors and better interaction/protection (particuraly more "free interaction") in these spots would like offer better and more consistent options in how to pursue a game winning line of play after he hits and starts mass drawing cards.

I'd have a hard time believing that Griselbrand lines of play would be significantly more effective than most Wheel or Ad Naus lines, and the card slot efficiency of the decks simply wouldn't be as good due to the amount of support elements that would have to be run to enable the line. It could be competitive, but it'd be dubious that Grisel's unbanning could "break" the format, he's mostly banned as a nod to the format's casual philosophy, he does things most playgroups won't appreciate and can cause some very long turns that aren't deterministic and often will fizzle (the same reasoning given for Paradox Engine's banning, though PE is significantly more powerful in a competitive sense than Griselbrand in EDH).

To expand some on what abby315 stated from a competitive angle, Notion Thief is very much a "must respond to" line of play from an opponent. A Thief existing on the board has the potential to outright win the game if it exists for longer than the 2 seconds it takes to spend some form of interaction on it. It might seem counter intuitive that this is the "less salty" line of play, but the truth lies in the implications.

Consider for a moment a simple example where either card is played by an opponent as a means of halting another opponent's Mystic Remora triggers. The Thief will certainly put a stop to one opponent acquiring a lot of extra resources very quickly, but the potential game ending threat is that now another opponent might be acquiring even more resources very quickly (perhaps with a suspected wheel line of play) while simultaneously denying all but the first draw of the draw step to all other players as a means of finding an answer. This circumstance is so untenable that everyone will work against the Notion Thief play to ensure it either doesn't resolve or doesn't live long enough to produce a likely win for the Notion Thief player. There isn't much in the way of thought process that needs to go on, the Thief simply can't be allowed, regardless of the Mystic Remora, the choice of what to do is already made for all players in this situation as the Thief is a "must respond to" issue for everyone. There's very little in the cause/effect cycle to cause frustration or an agonizing sequence of choices because the correct choice is obvious by default.

Meanwhile, an opponent playing a Narset to deal with an opposing Mystic Remora is quite different. Narset won't shut down the Remora in the same way as the Thief, but will cause the Remora opponent a significant loss of value. Narset herself doesn't allow for lines of play that result in mass acquisition of game winning levels of resources, but might allow a line of play that puts all Narset's opponents in difficult to recover from situations (though they can be recovered from). Narset doesn't quite impact your own ability to find answers for her provided the additional card draws come at instant speed during opposing turns, and the question of whether or not the impact on the Remora opponent is worth negating at all can be confoundingly difficult to parse. Because Narset isn't a game winning "must respond to" level threat the implications are much more convoluted and each player has to consider a ton of possible angles to decide if the Narset is of benefit to them at that moment and for how long they believe she can stick around on the field before becoming a major problem. Because the Narset line of play invokes so many complicated concerns it can be a lot more frustrating to figure out how to deal with her appropriately in a competitive setting.

enpc

Absolutely. All of that is worthwhile to consider. For EDH, these two are very close in terms of the salt the may cause and the conversation about which mines more salt will mostly come down to which drawbacks/advantages are most abused in the meta each individual plays in. There could be metas where either is more or less potent than the other so they both deserve fairly equal recognition as frustrating cards to play against in the EDH format.

In non edh formats it's not really a question about which card is more troublesome to deal with, it's Narset by a mile (and then some).

In EDH specifically, particularly competitive EDH, the case is a bit different and the cards are much closer in terms of raw power level as it contributes toward a win. Narset probably still has a slight edge here as EDH, and cEDH in particular, is a format that very much revolves around resource acquisition and resource denial as the most basic fundamental principles. You can't fight through 3 people with just one piece of permission or protection, so it doesn't really matter if your win condition is something like Oracle into Consultation and you have available to use, that line of play simply won't resolve and those resources (both cards and mana) will be wasted, which affords each other player a much greater chance of winning the game. While Notion Thief is significantly better at generating a huge influx of resources to use, it's a more vulnerable card as a creature with 1 toughness (and therefore a slightly more vulnerable line of play) than the less mana intensive/restrictive Narset that immediately replaces itself (card nuetral) and serves a similar function in the resource denial role (preventing opponents from accumulating cards in hand).

While both have advantages and drawbacks in EDH, even in this format the slight edge in terms of cards that are more troublesome to deal with once they actually resolve and hit the board still goes to Narset, but only just.

If it's not fun then what's the point? Subjecting oneself to self instigated torture doesn't seem like the goal of playing a game of magic. Competitive magic, maybe, sure, at the professional level to prepare and play in professional tournaments with the goal of earning a living. Otherwise I can't imagine causing your own grief to be a worthwhile venture.

I like the group slug in combination with a pillowfort idea. Gisela's wording offers a pretty unique opportunity. Triggered effects that would deal 1 damage to you while she is on the board deal no damage to you instead, but double damage to opponents. Manabarbs, AEther Sting, Battle Strain, Burning Earth, Heat of Battle, Rampaging Ferocidon, City of Brass, Talisman of Conviction, Battlefield Forge are all cards that would have their negative effect negated if Gisela is on the field, while opponents would suffer more.

Ankh of Mishra, Psychogenic Probe, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Pyrostatic Pillar, Repercussion, Spellshock, Zo-Zu the Punisher would all be cards that have their negative effects mitigated with Gisela out and opponents would suffer a lot more.

You could complement this game plan with pieces like War's Toll, Caltrops, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Aura of Silence, Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Vryn Wingmare, Ghostly Prison, Windborn Muse to tax and slow them down while all the slug effects eat away at life totals.

I feel like there's quite a bit of space to be explored in this niche for Gisela.

griffstick I kid, but sometimes vote options can very much be a double edged sword. At least it's just upvotes and no downvotes. Downvotes never fail to lead to major issues, divisiveness, petty cliquery (inventing words here), and hate mongering. Upvotes at least tend to mostly have positive results, though they do occasionally promote popularity contests.

griffstick

I think you meant "accept blame" rather than "take credit".

;-)

Cool idea. I’d definitely watch it.

I certainly considered both Uro and Growth Spiral as potential candidates to hold card slots. Growth Spiral imprinted could be some excellent value for grinding out games, but I think this type of concept is too reliant on the tempo advantage of sticking early lock pieces to go in a value grind oriented direction. Can’t know for certain without testing it, but the 6 dorks and Gemstone Caverns set up provides some serious on the play opportunities while also fitting better within the tempo play pattern the concept wants to abuse I think.

It’s definitely an idea worth tooling around with to see what set up is ideal against the meta at large, there’s a whole lot of potential here. It feels like a concept where the most difficult matchups might be Hardened Scales or Neoform and neither of those decks is particularly strong in the meta which could mean the concept is very well positioned for the meta. Get in maybe 100 games or so of testing and you’ll have a better idea.

I was a bit intrigued so I threw a list together to test it for a couple of games against E-tron and Jund (my typical standards against which I first test new Modern decks) and the results of 3 games was actually quite promising. Silent Scepter took them all (granted it was going first in each game, but winning on the play against meta staples is the first hurdle a new concept should be able to overcome). I moved the concept to Bant to better play along the Tempo axis, and the exact list I tested was this:

Land: 2 Breeding Pool 4 Flooded Strand 4 Gemstone Caverns 2 Hallowed Fountain 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Mystic Sanctuary 1 Snow-Covered Forest 1 Snow-Covered Island 1 Snow-Covered Plains 1 Temple Garden

Instant: 3 Failure 4 Opt 2 Path to Exile 3 Remand 4 Silence

Creature: 3 Birds of Paradise 3 Grand Abolisher 3 Noble Hierarch 2 Spell Queller

Planeswalker: 3 Teferi, Time Raveler

Sorcery: 4 Serum Visions

Artifact: 4 Isochron Scepter

Sideboard: 2 Force of Negation 4 Grafdigger's Cage 2 Path to Exile 3 Spell Pierce 4 Veil of Summer

Don't actually know what the sideboard should look like but I figure cage is solid into Dredge, Lukka combo, and Neoform combo with potential to be useful in matchups where opponents are playing Uro, Kroxa, or Snapcasters as well. A couple extra paths for more aggro oriented strategies that land creatures before tempo control elements come online on turn 2 (Boggles, Hardened Scales, E-tron, Death's Shadow, Prowess, etc). Veil versus any deck running targeted discard or removal like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Tropy, or Fatal Push (Grixis, Jund), And a couple of extra countermagic options to defend against other targeted removal like Abrade, or opposing spell based tempo concepts like Burn. Gotta say, even though I haven't play tested this idea ton, it does seem an idea with quite a bit of merit in Modern these days. Certainly has the potential to be a strong performer in the meta up to the point Teferi gets it's deserved ban.

Any time you run a Mystic Sanctuary utility set up you're gonna want to run 8 island fetches. Flooded Strand and then a 4x of Scalding Tarn or Misty Rainforest (if you swap to Bant colors) is going to provide the best consistency in terms of the mana base.

Interesting idea. Might be something to it.

Definitely an idea that could make good use of a 4x Gemstone Caverns build as it will essentially be a tempo based concept. Remand and Failure/Comply are ideal fits to fight along that axis and simply keep boards clear aside from lands until you land Scepter+Silence. Dealing with Chalice of the Void, targeted discard, and cheap instant speed artifact removal strike me as the most reasonable answers to the strategy, so cards like Veil of Summer, Miscast, and Spell Pierce hold a lot of value as does Force of Negation. Grand Abolisher, while an odd fit for a competitive Modern deck, might be an ideal fit for this type of concept to offer a 2 cmc lockout component in addition to Teferi at 3. Bant might be a better color combo for the idea, but it'd be tough to say without doing some serious testing.

SynergyBuild

The play patterns it consistently enables to allow extremely consistent development advantages is definitely the best upside to playing a Bloom Combo package. The cards are almost never dead in the way a Thassa's Oracle, Doomsday, or Aetherflux Reservoir can often be, don't slow down the speed with which the deck can employ it's primary combo lines, and provide an almost insurmountable board development lead in games that turn grindy and go long (which is most every game in competitive EDH settings these days given the crazy amount of cheap, effective interaction available for most of standard meta fast combo win lines).

Life from the Loam is a nice complementary piece to the concept and a card that fits in certain shells, but just lacks a suitable card slot in T&T variants due to the greater effectiveness of some of the hate pieces that provide more reliable boosts to win rate given the data we've collected. I still run Loam in the Tasigur shell variation of this concept, and would strongly recommend it's inclusion for any deck running this concept in strictly Sultai shells. I might also recommend it for Simic variations of this concept since the combo is less streamlined as it requires Trade Routes, Lotus Cobra, and often a land like Gaea's Cradle.

The concept was more of a group effort by my play group than a pure solo effort. I certainly had the initial idea for looping Summer Bloom, but as with most of the highly competitive stuff I post on Tapped Out the iterations that get posted are largely the product 4 minds that all played MTG at the professional level working together. The Inception concept was a similar idea that evolved within our playgroup as a means of besting a stale, stagnant competitive meta that's been rather lacking in innovation for the last few years. I'd love to be able to claim sole credit for the ideas, but that's just never been how things in our group have worked for most of the last 2 and a half decades. Tomik, Distinguished Advokist is our latest tech that we've been trying as a means of combating the insane effectiveness of the Bloom Combo concept, but not a card that holds much value when playing against less evolved standard competitive meta staples.

How exactly do you propose to consistently get Lantern into play in the Commander format?

The full 8 fetch lands and 3 island shock lands are generally going to be plenty enough to support a singleton Mystic Sanctuary. Fetch lands are actually much better than additional shocks, Essentially, counting fetches, the deck as listed as I look at it is running 14 "Islands". More than enough to support a Sanctuary which is a definitely a card that should be at least a 1 of to enable the double Cryptic Command lock. If anything, the Collonade is the least useful land in the list, Tar Pit is the better choice for a land based win condition.

If you enable chat using the little circle cog icon next to my name on my page it enables the DM features of the site with that individual.

If you aren't opting for a Food Chain type of line with The First Sliver then there are often more capable sliver commanders, especially for budget decks or more casual settings. Sliver Overlord does lend itself to execution of the self contained sliver based infinite combo line. Tutoring for Heart Sliver, Manaweft Sliver, Basal Sliver, and Sliver Queen and getting them into play allows you to generate infinite mana by making a new sliver, taping it for mana, saccing it for mana, and then using the to make another new sliver and repeat the loop. From here there are any number of ways you could choose to win with Sliver Overlord, just making an infinite army of slivers, melting face with a something like Acidic Sliver, or drawing out the whole deck with Mnemonic Sliver. Some of your friends might not like the power level of this line of play if the group is more casual, but without a consistent means of engaging the cascade ability of The First Sliver from the command zone a swap to this as the primary line of play for the deck would certainly improve performance and consistency. Training Grounds and Biomancer's Familiar are good support cards to include to facilitate cheaper ability activations.

The curve is still a bit high, keeping the average cmc as low as possible is a big factor for competitive decks in terms of the consistency of their opening 3 turns worth of plays. Ideally you're gonna want to be in the 1.6-1.8 range to be able to compete with most of the tier 1, 2, 3 and 4 decks in the competitive edh meta. I'm very much enjoying checking in on this list as it gets tweaked, it's rather exciting to watch a new archetype in the process of gestating into a full fledged competitive contender.