Some Swaps I'm Thinking of Making
MarshCasualty, 4 days ago
Pelt Collector for Stonecoil Serpent, Scythe Tiger, or Rogue Elephant: I know Pelt Collector's supposed to be good, but in goldfishing, it's stayed as a 1/1 much longer than I'd like, and is usually a dead draw after turn 2. Not 'evolving' from toughness is significant, especially since it means you basically can't put Rancor, Bonesplitter, Grafted Wargear, etc. on it. I think it'd be better in a deck that cares about +1/+1 counters, but here, I think I'd even prefer Evolving Adaptive.
River Boa for Skylasher, Wildborn Preserver, or Ambush Viper: I've seen River Boa played in Canlander lists for this archetype, but I'm not convinced it's actually that good here. Playtesting may prove me wrong, but Skylasher came to mind as a potentially better replacement. Flash seems better than regenerate in non-blue matchups, especially since you usually want to use all your mana. The flash made me think of Wildborn Preserver and Ambush Viper, the latter of which is more of a removal spell than a creature, which is something I'm a bit low on. I've been trying to find a place to slot it in, and this might be it.
Dungrove Elder for Eldritch Evolution: Ironically, Dungrove Elder is the card that made me want to build the deck, but in goldfishing, the number of forests in play is rarely enough to make it feel better than other 3-drops. Eldritch Evolution is probably the 'best' swap here, since it lets you toolbox or just grab your best 3-drop.
Blanchwood Armor for Regal Imperiosaur (or Witchstalker): As above. This could also become a combat trick, or a flash creature like Wolfir Avenger.
Treetop Village for Desert or Grasping Dunes: Just a thought, since I'm low on removal.
Mistcutter Hydra for Thrun, Breaker of Silence: More efficient, and you'll rarely want to cast the hydra for less than 5, though 4 does happen. Still thinking about this one.
ALSO, this might be a bit crazy, but without the forest reliance, I might be able to justify splashing white for Loxodon Smiter?
Initial Impressions and Tuning — 1st Revision
August_Cross, 5 days ago
I've gotten to play with the deck now! Here are my immediate thoughts and a few changes listed below. I've also updated the deck description to reflect that the Final Fantasy set released and that I've actually played with this list now.
Lifetotal did prove to be a concern for one of my games, but I think those circumstances came about due to a Voltron player on a fast start and some user "error" on my end. (Even with hindsight, I wouldn't truly call my decisions in that game "mistakes," but rather that they just had a steeper cost than I expected.) Point being, I don't yet believe that the deck needs lifegain, because I think I can adjust my play patterns to compensate. Tutoring up and casting Essence Harvest earlier in the game, for instance, would provide me a nice infusion of life, with the only risk being leaving it exposed to graveyard hate if I don't get it back out of there quickly. It's also been very easy to tutor up Desynchronization and use the threat of casting it to politically deter attacks.
With that in mind, I'm not yet making any changes to add lifegain. I'm choosing to switch out a few cards pre-emptively in order to make sure the deck isn't overly reliant on Noctis to function. This intent mostly turned into adding more cards that actually draw cards instead of the "Digging" category being exclusively mill—that way I have extra things to play if Noctis isn't around to cast cards out of my graveyard. At the same time, I ended up cutting multiple sacrifice outlets and anything that relied on death effects for value (e.g. Wreck Hunter and Slagstone Refinery), mostly in exchange for more consistency hitting landrops.
I also realized that the win-con was even more jank than I feared (lol). I'm not giving up on the idea yet though, so I've created a more refined plan to pull it off.
===accordion ===panel:Drawin' Cards and Doin' Less Sacrifice
Both are 2-drop creatures, so keeping the curve similar is nice. While most things aren't going to have Finality counters on them unless Noctis has been doing his thing, Soul Diviner still has a more useful payout of "Draw a card" in contrast to milling two cards. The Mill requires Noctis to stay out to be usable, whereas even if Noctis gets hit by spot removal, the cards drawn by Soul Diviner stay castable. This isn't even mentioning that removing Finality counters is a powerful utility for this deck, completely cheating one of its main limiting restrictions.
Scrap Trawler relies on me to draw one of my sacrifice outlets to intentionally control it, and further, it hasn't looked that appealing in my hand when so many cards in the deck are 3-drops. Anything cheaper might have already been cast into play as well, and finality counters mean they won't be going back to the graveyard for Scrap Trawler to pull out later. They won't even trigger Scrap Trawler themselves, at that point. Tome of Legends can still be cast out of the graveyard (since it's still an artifact), and it outright draws cards, even if the graveyard plan isn't going that well at that moment. While there is some lost synergy, given this deck's heavy graveyard theme, the recursion and card draw are still analogous as card advantage.
Seer was probably the worst of the "digging" effects I'm cutting, since it relied on me to have a sac outlet. Mystic Forge offers actual card advantage every single time I can cast a card off the top of the library, in which case it has 32 artifact cards to hit. The deck's Mill Rocks also offer great synergy, since they lets me manipulate the top of library more than once per turn in order to get rid of dead hits.
I wanted Transmogrant Altar to be a budget, less-combo-prone version of Krark-Clan Ironworks, but such a thing simply does not exist. I found it harder to work with the restriction of only sacrificing creatures (in contrast to sacrificing any artifact), and the specific use-case of resetting Archaeomancer/Tenacious Tomeseeker can be covered by plenty other things. Invasion of Amonkhet mills, cantrips, and then waits until the backside is needed as, effectively, creature recursion. With the exception of the deck's key creatures Sewer Nemesis and Metalwork Colossus, the latter of which doesn't need the help, the battle's backside can be cracked later to provide a copy of any useful creature in my graveyard, or even someone else's.
Scavenger's Talent feels like it could be an all-in-one gameplan, since it provides its own sac outlet to trigger the mill effect. And that mill effect gives me things to play. But three permanents is a lot to sacrifice for only one creature, especially in a deck that isn't benefitting as much from its creatures. Further, the timing restriction doesn't help me at all. So, I'll take a different "digging" card by just adding an option that draws more cards.
===endpanel ===panel:Please God, Let Me Play Lands and Cast Things This section might have controversial cuts, but the common theme is getting rid of an inconsistent subtheme and embracing some consistency.
You'd think that Grinding Station would be easy to use. Mill to find artifacts, cast those artifacts to untap the station, then sacrifice the new artifacts to keep going. But recall that Noctis puts finality counters on artifacts; you're never getting them back. Spending more than even 1 mana just to mill doesn't feel good, not when a more dedicated Grinding Station deck could be developing their board at the same time and coincidentally making artifact tokens or whatnot to sacrifice to the station. This landcycler can find any of my colors and still be cast for cheap later in the game for whatever reason, making it the exact kind of role-filler I'm looking for instead.
Why should I rely on a sac outlet to get some extra mana? Especially when the upfront investment is 4-mana. In contrast, Mycosynth Wellspring finds a land for much cheaper, can do its thing even if being cast from the graveyard (unlike the cyclers), and still has some of that sacrifice synergy if I get my outlets out. But the point of this change is that Mycosynth Wellspring doesn't need the outlets to at least find me one land and color-fix me like the cyclers do.
I still believe in Sivriss' usefulness, but removing it matches the theory of this revision: get rid of this unnecessary sacrifice subtheme and get some consistency and resiliency into this list. So, Sivriss is becoming a cheap bit of cost reduction that I forgot existed during my initial deckbuilding.
Adding two bridges to expand the options for Sojourner's Companion's cycling ability. I want to increase the land count, so why not get rid of this card that only gets more mana if I meet variable conditions? This also helps keep the landbase varied for hitting all my colors.
===endpanel ===panel:Interaction Revamp
Honestly, Johann's Stopgap has felt quite fine every single time I've cast it, whether on my own creature or someone else's. However, I thought about White Auracite further and realized that an artifact is likely just more powerful in a deck like this. Being able to cast my interaction out of the graveyard and potentially at Flash-speed with Shimmer Myr or Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage are huge advantages. Beyond that, they still feel like much the same card, since in a fringe case, I could exile my own cards and then sacrifice the Auracite in order to reset whatever it was holding. Yet even when I actually use it on my opponents, it more permanently removes that problem. And none of this mentions that it sits around to be a mana rock as well!
The more I think about Obscura Charm, the more I worry that its usecases are too limited. It only destroying low-cost creatures and planeswalkers is the particular dealbreaker. This deck could use with slightly more direct, targeted removal, so Void Rend should be an easy change.
Adding Angel of the Ruins is technically part of my goal to help the deck hit land drops easier, but it counts as a interaction piece and thus found its place over an existing interaction piece. Curtains' Call gets cut due to the double-whammy of being an instant (which is harder to get out of my graveyard and reuse, in contrast to Angel fo the Ruins) and due to me frequently playing three-player games. If I'm paying extra mana on the spell anyway, then let me go big and do some evil things by sacrificing and recasting this Angel over and over.
I thought that Universal Solvent being so cheap to cast would make it useful as sacrifice fodder for an outlet, but the deck's play patterns simply didn't work out that way. I may not have that many outlets in the first place, I might need to sacrifice something specific (to get it in my graveyard and then recast it), and this deck's current trend of stacking some cost reduction by the late game means the ability costs way to much mana actually use, in contrast to just having a bigger spell to cast. Meteor Golem is both a bigger spell to cast and can work in some fringe cases by being a creature too, such as being hit by creature recursion or being sacrificed to my Trading Post. ===endpanel ===panel:Miscellaneous Tech
- Cruel Witness --> Wonder
Cruel Witness is another of those cards reliant on Noctis to do anything, in a way that I'm not sure is that helpful to the deck. Another addition that draws cards would likely do fine in this slot, but in this case, I'm eager to first see if Wonder adds any power or utility. Wonder can easily get milled into the graveyard or discarded to Trading Post. Once there, it provides endless flying blockers or can give Noctis himself easier attacks, allowing him to gain life more regularly off his lifelink. Who knows if the evasion might also make it easier for Metalwork Colossus or Sewer Nemesis to sneak in some big damage attacks and speed up my Fling clock?
Now that Soul Diviner can remove finality counters, Esperzoa feels much weaker, especially since its ability is timing-restrictive due to being an Upkeep trigger. Its other main use as a flying blocker is also being covered by the addition of Wonder. I hesitate somewhat to add Clock of Omens, but I believe it can prove its worth in late-game turns. It can make those turns much more mana efficient by granting an extra use of a mill rock, mana rock, or even some other weird utilites like tapping Scaretiller. Even in the early game, I don't imagine it will be a dead card all that often and for that long, seeing as how the deck has lots of mill sources for a reason. Even if it can't work with some of these mill sources, those sources go digging for the pieces what the Clock wants.
- Archaeomancer --> Tenacious Tomeseeker
- Blood Fountain --> Carrion Cruiser
- Ancestral Statue over... actually give me a sec on this one.
The above cards are all changes meant to refine my core win-con. I'll explain in the deck description rather than here. Carrion Cruiser's an easy explanation though, since I NEED an artifact that gets creatures out of the graveyard, and the Cruiser is more mana efficient than Blood Fountain. That isn't even accounting for potential cost-reduction either.
If I'm being honest, the journal with no additional clue support is probably too ambitious for the kind of timeframe this deck's gameplan already demands. I'm interested in trying out the backside of Altar as a backup win-con. If my Essence Harvest in particular gets exiled, then maybe I can benefit from my mill by dropping a lot of cards into the Craft ability and getting an annoying beat-stick.
===endpanel ===endaccordion
That's all! This is pretty dense, but it's because I am not one to skimp out on discussing the "why." These thoughts are how I justify making such changes in the first place, especially when it comes to cutting cards I would otherwise be excited to play. Hope these updates help anyone who was maybe feeling lost as to the thinking and theory behind deckbuilding choices.
Final Fantasy Update
Sunzet, 1 week ago
Due to the recent price drops over the past five years, Aether Vial is now within this deck. Added Cecil, Dark Knight and Dion, Bahamut's Dominant, and creature-based lands. Removed main deck instants.
FF Upgrade
nxtsquare, 1 week ago
+ Heidegger, Shira Executive + SOLDIER Military Program
None
deckmasterjay, 1 week ago
None
deckmasterjay, 1 week ago
Edgar is silly
Oof_Magic, 1 week ago
The new Final Fantasy set is upon us and boy did it bring a hit. I've been trying to make a consistent FTK while using as few symmetrical draw effects as possible and Edgar, King of Figaro finally allows this deck to do away with Timetwister. In fact, Edgar has sparked a ripple of changes that get to the endgame. Bringing in Edgar over Timetwister does mean replacing a piece with a more expensive one. So I have done away with the Island I was running in place of the Tolarian Academys I should have had in all along. Perhaps I was too worried about getting really big mana out of Academy that I went with guaranteed mana. At any rate, I was mulling over the notion of throwing in Growth Spiral to chain Academies while going FTK. Thought about ways to untap it since Paradoxical Outcome neither can target lands nor grant or bypass your land play for the turn. Then I realized I don't need to play multiple or untap it. I untap it naturally every turn.
Emrakul and Mind's Desire form the most hilarious loop I have seen in Magic. When we get far enough along in sequencing, we will often cast Desire off Desire for the remainder of our deck. At this point, Academy is taking on the additional role of insurance should we get bot Emmys in our hand. Almost inevitably, an Emmy will find its way into our Desire pile and we can drop it for free, Omniscience style. Off of our accrued mana rocks, we cast our other Emmy, destroying the original, taking herself and our graveyard into our library. We can then cast another Desire to put what was our graveyard in our Desire pool. At this point, we have no deck, the only thing in the graveyard is a single Desire, and the rest is accessible either on board or in the Desire Pool. The Emmy that got destroyed was sent to the library and then the Desire pool so we cast it again. It destroys the Emmy on board sending it and the lone Desire to our deck. We cast Desire from our pool, Emmy and Desire come back, we cast Emmy destroying the other, rinse and repeat. We can stack Infinite turns without using any mana. This process, by inevitably putting all our creatures in our Desire pile to be put out for free, along with the extra turns from Emrakul means this is a more than lethal swing each turn, forever, before our opponent could make a move.
The Oncoming Storm
DatRamblingMan, 1 week ago
For the longest time, I had Risona at the helm of Burn. Now, with the release of Final Fantasy, Lightning is taking her spot at the wheel. The possibility of doubling the damage of our burn spells is too good, though being able to punch through for damage might be tricky. I’ll be doing some testing to see whether Burn is still the way to go, or if we pivot to an aggro style build. The mana base has also been tweaked a bit as well, which I may end up adding some additional fetches to round things out. What do you guys think?
Some new toys
Shnuff, 1 week ago
Reclusive Artificer -> Stridehangar Automaton Decoction Module -> Saheeli, Radiant Creator Quicksmith Spy -> Adaptive Omnitool Expedition Map -> Chromatic Lantern
None
zachz, 1 week ago
Removed Knight of Obligation for Loxodon Gatekeeper, and Syphon Life for Well of Lost Dreams.
Koma, World-Eater exists now and some FF cards
Shnuff, 1 week ago
Tempest Djinn -> Koma, World-Eater Numbus Swimmer -> Sin, Unending Cataclysm Rampant Growth - > Monstrosity of the Lake (islandcycling is basically the same thing since I'll never need 2 forests) Into the Roil -> Sword Coast Serpent (more flavorful but just a 7mana 6/6 Shipbreaker Kraken -> Summon: Leviathan Quandrix Cultivator -> Kiora's Follower Tatyova, Tenthic Druid -> Flow of Knowledge Negate -> Leviathan Kruphix, God of Horizons -> Myojin of Life's Web
Deck added
Elsterooo, 1 week ago
![[WIP Budget] Sibsig Ceremony but cool thumbnail](http://static.tappedout.net/chart/0-0-100-0-0-small.png)
![No One Left Behind feature for [WIP Budget] Sibsig Ceremony but cool](http://static.tappedout.net/mtg-cards-2/the-brothers-war/no-one-left-behind/femme_fatale-no-one-left-behind-bro-16673692930.png)
removing tibalt's trickery and pyrokinesis
readfoucault, 1 week ago
not playing in a pod where these ultra-situational interaction pieces are all that useful
I finally done did it...
gildan_bladeborn, 1 week ago
...and by that I mean "set whimsy/sentimentality to the wayside" and cut some pet cards that have been kicking around this list since time immemorial: the last few years of Magic product releases have for whatever reason - the whole "it is always spoiler season!!!" probably had something to do with it, alongside particular WotC decisions + them continuing to endlessly release exactly the sort of cards I otherwise would collect resulting in my no longer having any real desire to collect them - have passed by in a bit of a blur, where I wasn't really paying the best attention to new set releases and their content (to the point where despite definitely knowing about it initially I had just "memory-holed the entire existence of Bloomburrow" for a bit, then later had that "...oh yeah! THAT came out!" realization).
Having now exited that fugue state and having gone back to pore over and actually properly read various sets (some of which I'd basically skipped entirely reading at all because "Commander product"), I've belated realized a bunch of cards exist and that I should play them: not a single one of those are cards I just put into this deck though, ha ha!
No, these ones I just cut some of my pet cards to make room for are all cards I did know about, but had sort of glossed over/not really thought properly about and then, because I was making revisions to other decks to account for cards I straight up did not realize ever existed at all (or if I was aware of them, managed to not form any lasting memory of them), I re-encountered these cards that I did at least know existed, but had never given proper consideration to/contemplated axing spots that sacred cows occupied on the list to include them; whimsy & sentimentality were, I was forced to acknowledge, holding me back from playing with some cards that are hella rad (in the parlance of the youth who are now "being called boomers by the actual youth").
- Boseiju, Who Endures
- I should have been running this for just ages and the funny bit is that I literally already owned the copy I just swapped in... but it was in a binder of the sort of various cards that I collect "to have in a binder" for art treatment/non-standard card frame reasons, along with the rest of that cycle, also in full-art & foil, and I think that at the time I just didn't feel like buying a 2nd copy because the associated price tag "is not low". WotC managing to stamp out my obsession with collecting stuff via just overwhelming me with too much to collect though allowed me to shout down/ignore the internal voice insisting I couldn't just take the game piece I already own out of the binder it was inside of to use it because it was "the binder copy" however, so now it is in a more useful place where I still get to look at it because it is in a deck that I play (I did of course still move a random other borderless card I'd collected into its spot though, because "the binder was full"). - Dragonhawk, Fate's Tempest - I saw this during/after spoiler season, in that space where I skimmed through the card list & special art treatments of Bloomburrow right before I then somehow memory-holed the entire existence of the set for a while, and I believe my thoughts were "oh hey, a bird dragon" and that the borderless treatment "looked cool"; I probably did actually read what it did, but clearly not well enough or with the presence of mind to properly work through the ramifications of what the ETB & attack trigger would look like, in a deck just rammed full of creatures that tick the particular criteria it checks for (else I'd have found a home for it sooner).
- Muerra, Trash Tactician - While I was likewise "at least broadly aware it existed" I really don't think I ever properly read what this card did at all, beyond thinking "aww, what a silly raccoon; the art in this set is adorable". I have subsequently actually read what the card does, and what the card does has me seriously contemplating finding a way to incorporate "more raccoons" (boy is that not a sentence I ever expected I would one day be typing, about Magic: The Gathering).
- Ojer Kaslem, Deepest Growth
Flip - Now this one I definitely did know about and even knew what it did/contemplated running it... but I don't remember why I originally ruled it out, until I was reminded of its existence recently and had that "oh right! THAT card: why aren't I playing that?" reaction to it, which is why I'm playing it now.
- Vaultborn Tyrant - I never seriously contemplated incorporating this when I first became aware it existed - I do remember thinking that it was cool though - but upon reexamination I have concluded that past me "was crazy" because the Tyrant "is bonkers good".
Cards Adjusted
wiluthen, 1 week ago
Iv been adjusting cards within the deck to still hold that punch but not be as financially straining. After some testing i might gut some basics for some more utility within the deck.
The Big 8 Way Switcheroo
DreadKhan, 1 week ago
I changed up 8 cards in here, and from playtesting it tends to shave at least a turn off this deck's wins, it turns out I was really sleeping on some of these, mostly Derevi and Tyvar. The fixing is quite a bit better too without 2 colourless lands (replaced with 2 true Fetches) and 2 Basics replaced with fetchable Tri lands. Now Krosan Verge can find all 5 colours, at this point it's easily one of the weakest lands in the list, but ramping out non-basic lands isn't bad. In addition I threw in Winds of Abandon and Kudo, Winds is a really good wipe to have in here, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Kudo, King Among Bears is a really nice perk at higher level tables, when people are less likely to bother with derpy BS like Anthems or +1 counters. I pulled Spirit of Resistance, Captain Sisay (it was one step too many for a Zur win, just not Bracket 4 material I felt), Domri, and Windborne Muse.
I'm still unsure if the list wants a Phelddagrif, but I think Legacy Weapon is easily the best payoff for infinite mana in Sisay, even if it doesn't technically win on the spot the ability to exile your opponents' boards is pretty devastating, and it's not like you won't have a huge trampling Sisay.
The other cards I wonder about are Rhystic Study, because that's really efficient card draw, Utopia Sprawl and maybe even Wild Growth, though both of those require a dual to get optimal use out of, but 1 mana ramp is tempting! I think if I throw in a few more Fetch lands both of those would make more sense, either plays great if I can fetch out a non-Basic Forest. Obviously for this change to make sense I'd be shaving down my non-Basic Forests for Fetches, so that's less likely as the deck has most of the affordable fetches in it already. I think either of those auras would be more relevant than a Llanowar Elves, I much prefer the ceiling of mana neutral ramp later game v1 an Elf, and those auras are much more stable over time, way less people wipe Enchantments than artifacts or creatures.
Edit: Does this deck want a Deadpool, Trading Card in the toolbox? It's a great way to 'remove' a problem creature (while gaining it's text), I also wonder about Sygg, River Cutthroat, he seems better than the Assassin's Creed guy that draws off of historic spells.
Cards swapped
TimTwigg81, 1 week ago
Okay. The deck has been beaten now. After a half dozen games I have seen what Terra and Celes want the deck to do. I'm going to substitute a bunch of cards for funzies now. Don't worry... they're going to stay in the box and within reach. I recognize this is going to be a sweeping change. All the cards being thrown into the deck are still within the scope of a Final Fantasy VI playthrough. As a fan of the game since launch I absolutely made sure to include the necessary nods like the opera, train (and suplex!), as well as poisoning the waters. Everything is still on theme. I'm thinking the deck's overall value is going to go down. But so is the average cost. So it might be faster...? Let's see. All I know is Terra wants to stay in play and she really likes her shoes. Once I've played it again a few times I'll dial it in further. Removed: - Desolate More - Shadowblood Ridge - Sunscorched Divide - Graven Cairns - High Market - Sol Ring - Talisman of Conviction - Talisman of Indulgence - Coin of Fate - Commander Sphere - Key to the City - Big Score - Summon: Esper Valigarmande - Ruin Grinder - Flayer of the Hatebound - Anger - Combustible Gearhulk - Meteor Golem Added: + Insomnia Crown City + Rabanstre, Royal City + Vector, Imperial Capitol + Adventurer's Inn + World Map + Genji Glove + Elixer + Phantom Train + Poison the Waters + Magitek Armor + Suplex + Opera Love Song + Ultima + Battle Menu + Tonberry + Ahriman + Blasting Bomb + Summon: G.F. Iftrit
