|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Masterpiece Series: Amonkhet Invocations (AKHMPS)||Mythic Rare|
|Modern Masters 2017 Edition (MM3)||Rare|
|Planar Chaos (PLC)||Rare|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
|Promo set for Gatherer (PSG)||Rare|
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Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated.
|Have (2)||, lorddarkstar|
|Want (12)||ramboscoob333 , grisaun , VRN13 , bsvoboda , pleasefixthisgame , 1scariot , Treebeard_1 , mortilus , Moleaaa , zachi , TheBl0b , ddwind2000|
1 day ago
I particularly like Liliana of the Veil in The Rack decks as well as Thoughtseize which is in most cases better than Specter's Shriek . For protection against creature based decks a few Ensnaring Bridge could be used(which have really nice Invention art) as well as a copy of Damnation . Your mana base could also be improved Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth allows for the play of a couple of colorless lands like Mutavault or Dunes of the Dead (which works great with Smallpox ). I hope you will consider these changes which will greatly improve your pile of cards.
3 days ago
Thanks for the input Bighimmy!
So I've gone through the list and my understanding is that you mean proactive interaction/removal. So from the deck list thus far there is:
- Assassin's Trophy
- Beast Within
- Windgrace's Judgement
- Pernicious Deed
- World Shaper
- Acidic Slime
For boardwipes there are:
Now for some of the other options I've gone through in the past I personally don't feel like a few of them are really worth it, and feel free to discuss these since there's always going to be something that I'm missing or haven't really thought about. My thoughts on:
- Chaos Warp : This is an attractive option, it deals with anything and you can even use it on your own permanents to try and spin into something more useful. It means that certain threats don't go to the graveyard (for reanimation or death triggers) and can get lost in the deck. However, from past experience I'm much more a fan of Assassin's Trophy as you can then Bojuka Bog to exile the threat along with the rest of the graveyard. This is a less risky option, and I completely understand why people go to it but I know I'll be kicking myself once a Chaos Warp turns a threat into a bigger threat.
- Gaze of Granite : Pernicious Deed just does everything that Gaze of Granite does that much better with the only exception being planeswalkers. You don't have to sink all your mana into the casting (so if it gets countered it's not a complete loss) and furthermore you can use Pernicious Deed at instant speed, which is a massive way to interact with non-creature permanent-based strategies (such as enchantments and artifacts).
- Go for the Throat / Doom Blade / Dismember / Abrupt Decay : I'm not a massive fan of conditional removal in commander because my rule of thumb is that the broadest answer is the best answer the vast majority of cases.
- Putrefy : for the longest time I played this in the deck before Ravnica Allegiances rolled around and Bedevil took its place. The ability to interact with planeswalkers is fantastic, but the key thing I think is that the inability to regenerate clause from Putrefy isn't of massive concern for this deck for a couple of reasons. Firstly regeneration isn't particularly common, and when it is you're dealing with Asceticism in which case you're not Putrefying anything. Otherwise you have access to Damnation which doesn't allow regeneration and Toxic Deluge which also doesn't allow regeneration.
- Force of Vigor : I started playing this in my Ayula, Queen Among Bears commander deck and in mono green it is the best answer to a lot of early game and late game threats. Current this deck has 42 green cards so there's no shortage of fodder to play this for free on your opponent's turn, but I'm unsure as to what this supercedes in the deck currently.
- Casualties of War : as a budget option this is fine but the sorcery speed makes this lacklustre.
- Noxious Revival : This was on the radar for a while when I was concerned about getting Glacial Chasm destroyed and then getting exiled, however there is not really a reliable way to recur this effect, and it is not particularly powerful (though has some utility due to being able to play it at instant speed for nothing). My other concern was that it requires an additional step to get it into hand, so if you draw it for turn, you would need a way to draw an additional card to then get whatever you need from the graveyard to your hand. As a redundant effect for Eternal Witness I understand, however I think it is too much of a corner case and I would be more of a fan of Regrowth -like as you will have access massive amounts of excess mana from Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers . I imagine something like this will come along some time in the near future, it's only a matter of time.
- Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast / Guttural Response : I find that this angle of interaction is far too narrow to really be applicable unless you know there is a very high chance of versing counterspells in your local meta. This is why I find that Boseiju, Who Shelters All is a better solution to this problem, primarily because it can be searched off abilities and deals with the majority of effects while being difficult to interact with itself. Now the way your opponents can get around this is effects like Venser, Shaper Savant , Narset's Reversal or any other Unsubstantiate -type abilities. I learned to simply accept this as a weakness of the deck given the colours. The archetype is rather weak to its inability to interact with the stack, but I think there are more unconventional ways around this, such as Contamination to punish their mana base or by waiting until your counter-laden opponents are tapped out from trying to deal with each other. I think that this is a fair trade off for this deck being difficult to interact with.
The main weakness of this deck I believe is its inability to deal with mill and combo effectively, vulnerability to bounce effects on the stack like Venser, Shaper Savant and counterspells. I've found that these weaknesses can be reduced with a couple of strategies:
- Playing some political cards Pir's Whim + Tempt with Discovery + Rites of Flourishing to try and ameliorate the board (and not draw the ire of anyone who might have a counter available),
- Building up a solid land base from both a deckbuilding and play perspective to support a late-game comeback due to the lack of cards that effectively interact with land-base strategies, and
- The ability to play around counterspells and interaction, such as Boseiju, Who Shelters All and reliance on using abilities rather than just spells.
So after a little more testing, Elvish Reclaimer is an absolute house in being able to effectively Crop Rotation each turn to more reliable tutor out either ramping or utility land. The summoning sickness issue means that again this does not pull this deck back from the brink in the late game, but as an early game drop it provides access to both stocking the graveyard for Lord Windgrace and fixing mana for the later game. I regret my initial skepticism on this addition and think it is a great upgrade for the deck.
I am planning on adding in Korvold, Fae-Cursed King shortly because I think another Gitrog Monster will be welcome here. I think I'll finally have to pull the trigger on cutting Zuran Orb , it's been there since the start...
4 days ago
As to Toxic Deluge vs Fire Covenant , I think given our dork package, Fire Covenant should be run first. Anguished Unmaking , Abrupt Decay , Despark , or Teferi's Protection would all be worth looking at over Toxic, depending on your meta. If you need another board wipe vs removal/protection, I'm still pretty high on Crux of Fate , Damnation , or Magmaquake —the latter if Planeswalkers are an issue for you.
In terms of power level/competitiveness, I'm still looking to optimize the deck, but have to make adjustments since the whole strategy/deck composition can't really put up a decent showing in cEDH pods (where most of your decklist needs to be comprised of tight or redundant 2 card win-cons, mana neutral or positive ramp, cantrips/card draw/card selection, and cheap interaction/stax effects . . . and blockers for Tymna, assuming you're not playing her in the first place).
As opposed to, y'know, 22 dragons (including the commander), one permission spell that interacts on the stack, and not being able to threaten wins reliably before turns 6-8, possibly turns 8-10.
So I was just finding that even though I had strong/fast starts, the deck lacked enough raw card draw to stay in longer games of attrition that a lot of optimzed to 75% pods end up becoming. Rishkar's Expertise should thus probably be a Windfall , but with the added big ramp from Faeburrow Elder , I've been able to cast The Ur-Dragon more reliably, and drawing ten w/ a free cast has been great.
And in terms of your decklist (our lists' cores are still rather quite close with just a few deviations!), I'd look to cut any two of these four—— Conqueror's Flail , Gruul Signet , Sarkhan the Mad , or Abrupt Decay --for Worldly Tutor and some kind of raw card draw effect/spell. But those are all just cards that I had found either too narrow/conditional and are meta-dependent.
Whatever the power level, if we're lacking anything at the moment it is probably graveyard hate . . . I had been running Rakdos Charm , but that of course can't take care of more than one recursion engine at the table. Yard engine/value decks (vs decks that include graveyard manipulation as part of a winning/linear line) don't pop up as frequently at higher-power or cEDH tables, except maybe Frog (which needs its commander to function more than its yard, arguably), where Deathrite Shaman or Noxious Revival can target an opponent's key yard piece can sometimes stop a win . . . maybe Rakdos Charm gets a bit better with both Noxious Revival and Backdraft Hellkite ? Leyline of the Void fits what I'm looking at perfectly but isn't quite main deck playable.
5 days ago
I know The Professor has some videos up. On the road so I can't link them now.
Also posting because interesting thread is interesting.
What I can say is this: I generally go for 34 - 38 lands depending on curve, and I always do 8x stones.
- Sol Ring
- Thought Vessel
- Arcane Signet
- Fellwar Stone
The next three depend on how many colors I run. If I am running a Guild deck, such as Rakdos, I'll do;
- Rakdos Signet
- Commander's Sphere
If I am running a Shard it Wedge, like Esper, I'll do;
- Orzhov Signet
- Dimir Signet
- Azorius Signet
I also try to get 5 - 7 draw engines. I want permanents that draw on triggers, such as Garruk's Packleader and Greed . I prefer repeatability over one-time-use like Harmonize . Another great overlooked one is Thopter Spy Network . I've seen many players forget about the second half, myself included.
I try to avoid cards that benefit my opponent at all costs, such as Anvil of Bogardan , but that's just my style. Ultimately this is a game to be won. I try to limit my aid to others as much as possible, so that politics are stronger when needed.
This means I have accounted for 53 - 61 cards accounted for in all decks. Minus the Commander, this leaves 46 - 38 cards left over to find synergy and make combos with.
But that's just how I play.
5 days ago
Hi again realsoupersand,
Had to fly out to Ottawa, ON in Canada for a bit, so back in action.
50% of the time, I win with my primary win-con, which is Buried Alive + Reanimate , generally between T1-4 depending on how much tutoring and mana ramps I have available. It's CMC4, which happens on T1 occassionally, T2/T3 more realistically.
Karmic Guide is a critical component of that combo, also, yes she is playable with Kaalia of the Vast . Also enables Razaketh, the Foulblooded from the graveyard, and provides for sac/tutor. It's usually never a dead draw, and at CMC5 is still playable from hand, on occasion if the game is going on, and the Protection: with Flying also has assisted occasionally. Other than her obvious CMC as just a recursion tool, she's generally been good, and a requirement for the primary win-con.
Angel of Despair is just a Vindicate for CMC7, its ridiculous and only 5/5 flying. However, it's what I ALWAYS Tainted Pact to when Show and Tell + Omniscience , unless they have Leyline of Anticipation it's "usually" good enough. I can tutor Anguished Unmaking , however, I have to give priority up with an Omniscience on the table, so it's far too late by then. Can also destroy other random threats if needed too. She's borderline for sure. Red Elemental Blast is too slow in this case.
Angelic Arbiter was answering the Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge but now it's always Kess, Dissident Mage . Also for Tooth and Nail type encounters (eg: Craterhoof Behemoth ) or any type of haste/recursion. All together stops a few. I usually just put 1 response to any situation, because I just tutor the exclusive solution needed.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope protects against MLD type situations, but she's not difficult to remove anyway, everyone's removal deals with her no problem. If she buys me an extra turn though, it's worth it. Can also put a player on a turn timer or make them act before prepared (no Force of Will for example), sometimes... Not the strongest for sure. Or like a The Gitrog Monster looping destroy maybe...
Balefire Dragon is again, just to solve specific issues or eliminate high value ground targets. Like the others, Tainted Pact to hand whenever, a situation calls for it. I tried to cut back on creature controls (ex: Damnation ) just because its not a creature world, but often creatures can be enablers.
Baneslayer Angel cut, served no purpose other than lifelink for the Hatred but the CMC5 was too much, and only removed a single opponent. Serra Ascendant T1 "usually" puts enough pressure on 1 player (usually )), who is now on a turn timer, spending life for tutoring becomes harder, and sometimes waste time removing it. Statistically found, I was usually nearly 1 turn earlier to win with Serra Ascendant , plus overcharges me for an early Necropotence or Razaketh, the Foulblooded win or Doom Whisperer win.
Phyrexian Arena is tough, high CMC, no return. It still the second highest played card in commander, and I don't know how else to draw? Mardu is a drawing nightmare. Have to think on it, how to deal with it but agreed, same issue is with Bloodgift Demon . I've had Skyline Despot recommended has a same turn impact (draw at EOT), but also, might be ramping oppponents draw too, especially if I have no way to reconnect on attack as Skyline Despot doesn't have trample.
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight has the added benefit of removing 1-damage win-cons like Impact Tremors , Blasting Station , Goblin Bombardment , Dragon Tempest (with 1 dragon), Etc... Also puts pressure on. Usually just for a specific application though. I think my interaction package is more similar to a Thoughtseize type application, where if I can't win early, I tutor what I need to address the specific threats, instead of using Instant spell to do them? If that makes sense. Gisela, the Broken Blade i've cut.
Hellkite Tyrant was specifically answering an almost consistent Breya, Etherium Shaper deck. It's been a while since C16 set now, so definitely seeing it less and less. Might help with Teferi, Temporal Archmage or Urza, Lord High Artificer on occasion. It wasn't enough on it's own though, it also needed a Linvala, Keeper of Silence to go with it. Prior to this, I had nothing to compete with Breya, Etherium Shaper , had no way to win.
Lyra Dawnbringer is on my cut list now, might become the Sire Of Insanity or something like that. Mother of Runes works good with Master of Cruelties , also can protect Kaalia of the Vast , makes guys like Balefire Dragon unblockable too, or protects a Razaketh, the Foulblooded and becomes Tutor mana, or blocks an early Infect attack. Slow yes, but has some utility. Also can protect my Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Worldgorger Dragon causing me to win (instead of lose). It's borderline for sure, have to think about it. Aven Mindcensor feels good, looking for a way to include him as well as the Sire Of Insanity .
Steel Hellkite I tried for over a year, I would either, not be able to connect (no trample), or when I did, not enough mana to get the threat that I really needed to remove. I gave up on Steel Hellkite , also needs a Mother of Runes for support.
Ancient Tomb is back in, can't recall why I removed it. Think it screwed me one game with the colorless, but now that I've removed most of the colorless, it makes sense. Prismatic Vista isn't great, only 2 basics (can put in the snow's but for why), I like that it filters a land out (lower probability of drawing a land), but also destroys my mana-fixing as well, so agreed, unnecessary in this build, but feels weird.
I'm probably going to continue reducing CMC and reducing land counts as you've recommended, but needs some expensive 0-CMC rocks which I don't have, or some resource planning around alt. mana sources.
Overall goal is still to build for cEDH, understanding that consistency isn't going to push into more than a Tier-2.5/3 categorization, so I'll go over High Power again later lol.
Thinking about Interaction, I really don't want to go heavy into that with things like, Dismember or Lightning Bolt would rather let the opponents use their removal, and PRAY that I can sneak through a combo. If I combo T1 it has a fairly high success rate (other than a Pact of Negation which eliminated themselves) usually don't get stopped (Odd Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares here and there), T2 is still decently good, often others are still tutoring for a T3 win, but outside of T3 or beyond, usually I need to wait until someone tries to combo, and then is stopped, before I have a chance. I just go for it whenever I can though, increases winning % over trying to strategically go for it and being too late.
I think perhaps Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast or both perhaps will be handy, Silence I wish it had Split Second (like Teferi's Protection ) because most combos don't have a "sorcery" speed interaction so doesn't stop. Can protect me on the turn I'm going for it like another Grand Abolisher but outside of that not highly useful. Will do some playtesting with it and see if it improves my completion % for combo and increases my combo win % because that's all that matters.
I decided not to go MLD, can Stax/MLD certainly is a strategy, but prefer just to ignore others, and just go for the win myself, win or lose. Plus I don't repopulate my hand nor ramp, so probably just slowing myself down instead of the opponents. Plus I don't have a Ravages of War so would require a financial commitment, would rather focus on finding a way to go for the win on T1-T3 more consistently.
I think if you found Kaalia of the Vast wasn't competitive using MLD before you dissolved that strategy, don't think it's the right course to go down either. Would rather try some out-of-the-box planning, and see if we can get her into a cEDH, which your comments are VERY helpful, and VERY appreciated. Think I've made some decent strides, still waiting for my card order to come in the mail so I can make some more cuts/adds to the deck!
I'll reply on high power shortly since it's lower priority, and hopefully you'll see my deck going in a stronger direction. Pushing that T1 probability up is key. I keep thinking there must be a T1 with Entomb and Goryo's Vengeance that I can do somehow? Razaketh, the Foulblooded would need another enabler, but there must be someone (like Griselbrand aka Griselbanned) to win with? Hmm.
1 week ago
1 week ago
I'm assuming this is a budgetless list, so my first question is why no Mox Opal ? Oversight or intentional?
Next, how do you handle resolved creatures? You have three spells capable of removing a critter off the board, in Chain of Vapor Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge , but that's about it from what I can see. Why don't you run Ensnaring Bridge Humility Damnation or similar? I understand you want to be proactive with counterspells but there's no way you can lock the other 3 players with 1 for 1 trades while you're also building your board. Also consider that bouncing THEN countering a spell is 2-for-1'ing yourself when you could just Swords to Plowshares it. Literally every deck features a creature as the commander so its not like you won't have targets except the unbelievably rare pod of 4 PW commanders.
Are you aware in that you have a wincon with Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseam + Silence + Brainstorm + Windfall + Yawgmoth's Will ? I don't see the line listed despite being a built in backup if both labman + Jace are exiled. I see Yawgill + Grace listed but it doesn't look like you realize you can force 99+ draws to win.
Have you considered running tutor hate in tandem with Scheming Symmetry ? Aven Mindcensor or Leonin Arbiter break parity and are worth running even without Symmetry. I understand this is meant to be a bear-lite build but with how many wheels (free draws for opponents) you're running, turning off tutors may save your bacon. Also works well with Wishclaw which you seem to enjoy (its a Grim Tutor for first activation but being reusable for cheap unconditional tutor is fantastic so I have mixed feelings)
Have you considered miracle cards for Aminatous +1? Having the ability to always get them for the miracle cost is pretty rad. Banishing Stroke Devastation Tide Temporal Mastery Terminus . The timewalk one should be worth a consideration for sure. Miracle cards also make great surprise plays with EOT Vampiric Tutor or Mystical Tutor
Have you played against a discard stax deck like Nath or a mana denial stax deck yet? Your low amount of removal is leading me to believe that a resolved Trinisphere or Oppression makes this deck cry big sad tears.
Why would I choose Aminatou as the commander over Zur for a similar build? Zur can consistently grab Waste Not to kickstart wheel lines or value grinders like Necropotence Rhystic Study . I like the Aminatou interaction with Wishclaw but I don't think that single interaction in your 99 can justify the choice when Zur is going to give you 100% consistency. I normally see Aminatou decks run stax pieces that it can break parity on by blinking your own permanents ( Static Orb shutting the game down but you blink a tapped Mana Vault to get far ahead, blinking a 1 counter Tangle Wire to reset it, untapping your Ancient Tomb while Winter Orb is out, etc.etc.). You could certainly run strong hate cards like Winter Orb without turning off your combo lines. Cost enhancers like Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance might prove unwise though.
Extremely interesting build, curious to see where it goes. Cheers
1 week ago
Thanks for the suggestions guys, I’ve bitten the bullet and have bought the green cards needed to upgrade the original Scorpion King deck to this Golgari beauty.
However, due to budget and certain cards being unavailable I need some potential cards to consider instead of the following.
- Assassin's Trophy (I’ll wait for it to rotate out so it drops in price)
Any ideas would be great
Damnation occurrence in decks from the last year
All decks: 0.08%
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.09%
UB (Dimir): 1.11%
UBR (Grixis): 0.55%