|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Commander 2014 (C14)||Rare|
|Mirrodin Besieged (MBS)||Rare|
|Mirrodin Besieged: Phyrexia (MBP)||Rare|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
Combos Browse all
Black Sun's Zenith
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature. Shuffle Black Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
|Have (5)||robbnoble , Thunderbeard , metalmagic , Forkbeard ,|
|Want (7)||Korimax , SkylordAleksander , calovr , metalmustaine , VonBears , Isaia , pedro1166|
Black Sun's Zenith Discussion
3 weeks ago
Magus of the Coffers and Cabal Stronghold and the less budget version Cabal Coffers can help you ramp, especially when paired with your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth . And you can use Expedition Map to help find the land combo pieces.
Some other cards I'd recommend:
Painful Quandary is another tax-ish effect and just a wonderful pet card of mine
Black Sun's Zenith is a pretty good board wipe that gets around indestructible.
Hope this helps!
1 month ago
Thanks a lot for your suggestions!
I've made some modifications to the deck and got to test em out yesterday.
Getting more lords in to pump the damage of my zombies was a great suggestion. My friends seemed to think the same because it suddenly turned into a 3v1... ;P
As for the Eldrazi Monument I'm still on the fence about it because it feels like it will be a lot easier to remove than Wonder . Maybe it's just in my playgroup but artifact removal seems to be a lot more common than graveyard removal.
Thanks a lot again! :)
1 month ago
"One-card wincons" to consider: Insurrection , Expropriate , Painful Quandary , Rise of the Dark Realms , Revel in Riches , Cut / Ribbons . Perhaps Clone Legion , Rite of Replication , Mogis, God of Slaughter , Hour of Promise , Blatant Thievery , Grave Betrayal , or Mind's Dilation .
One thing to think about is getting Nicol Bolas flipped and maybe joined by the other planeswalkers and casting Obliterate , Jokulhaups , Devastation , or Decree of Annihilation . Almost guaranteed ultimates. Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God would be the best--proxy for now and include in first build?
Boardwipes: Toxic Deluge , Black Sun's Zenith , Hour of Devastation , Decree of Pain , Curse of the Swine , In Garruk's Wake , Deadly Tempest , Evacuation , Nevinyrral's Disk , Last One Standing , Perilous Vault , Oblivion Stone , Kindred Dominance , Necromantic Selection , Subterranean Tremors
Removal: Capsize , Bedevil , Hero's Downfall , Chaos Warp , Kolaghan's Command , Reality Shift , Pongify , Rapid Hybridization , Vraska's Contempt , Rakdos Charm , Price of Fame , In Bolas's Clutches , Plaguecrafter , Merciless Executioner , Fleshbag Marauder , Unstable Obelisk , Vandalblast , By Force , Shatterstorm , Hostage Taker , Yawgmoth's Vile Offering , Settle the Score , Dark Impostor , Hour of Glory , Sever the Bloodline , Silence the Believers , Spread the Sickness , Slave of Bolas , Electrodominance
Draw: (I would add Erebos once you're home) Patient Rebuilding , Phyrexian Arena , Greed , Arguel's Blood Fast Flip, Notion Thief , Windfall , Mystical Tutor , Blue Sun's Zenith , Pull from Tomorrow , Stroke of Genius , Braingeyser , Mind Spring , Expansion / Explosion , Invoke the Firemind , Deliver Unto Evil , Augur of Bolas , Painful Truths , Fevered Visions , Search for Azcanta Flip, Fact or Fiction , Dig Through Time , Treasure Cruise , Tidings , Thassa, God of the Sea , Day's Undoing , Reforge the Soul , Standstill , Deep Analysis , Necrologia , Steady Progress , Tezzeret's Gambit , Oath of Jace
Random utility: Ophiomancer , Metallurgic Summonings , As Fortold, Pendrell Mists , No Mercy , Stranglehold , Fated Return , Dark Intimations , Spellseeker , Sire Of Insanity , Thief of Sanity , Spark Double , Primal Amulet Flip, Dragon's Hoard , Mystic Retrieval , Shreds of Sanity , Spelltwine , Ashiok, Dream Render , Torpor Orb , Baleful Strix , Darksteel Myr , Solemn Simulacrum , Wayfarer's Bauble , Vedalken Orrery , Saheeli, Sublime Artificer , Will Kenrith , Mana Geyser , Gem of Becoming , Thran Dynamo , Narset, Parter of Veils , Keranos, God of Storms , Thrilling Encore , Star Compass , Coldsteel Heart , Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs , Ensnaring Bridge , Crawlspace , Expedition Map , Burnished Hart , Torment of Scarabs , Cruel Reality , Mnemonic Betrayal , Yawgmoth's Will , Bloodchief Ascension , Nightscape Familiar , Gonti, Lord of Luxury , Thaumatic Compass Flip, Dreadhorde Invasion , Fraying Omnipotence , Thrummingbird , Viral Drake , Past in Flames , Mizzix's Mastery , Omniscience , Tainted AEther , Aid the Fallen , Deepglow Skate , Flux Channeler , Rings of Brighthearth , Silent Arbiter , Meekstone , Mudslide , Astral Cornucopia , Everflowing Chalice , Lethal Vapors , Sunbird's Invocation , Stolen Strategy , Maze of Ith , Spreading Plague , Merchant Scroll , Polluted Bonds , Black Market , Grave Upheaval , Memory Plunder , Pain Magnification
Beaters: Dragonlord Silumgar , The Scorpion God , The Locust God , The Scarab God , God-Eternal Kefnet , God-Eternal Bontu , Darksteel Colossus , Colossus of Akros , Visara the Dreadful , Tsabo Tavoc , Avatar of Woe , Balefire Dragon , Nicol Bolas , Hellkite Tyrant , Bladewing the Risen , Grave Titan , Inferno Titan , Steel Hellkite , Vampire Nighthawk , Torrential Gearhulk , Noxious Gearhulk , Combustible Gearhulk , Dominus of Fealty , Roil Elemental , Tidespout Tyrant , Kokusho, the Evening Star , Keiga, the Tide Star , Ryusei, the Falling Star , Wrexial, the Risen Deep , Etali, Primal Storm , Nezahal, Primal Tide , Tetzimoc, Primal Death , Dread , The Haunt of Hightower , Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind , Razaketh, the Foulblooded , Enigma Drake , Crackling Drake , Archfiend of Depravity , Sheoldred, Whispering One , Thing in the Ice Flip, Niv-Mizzet, Parun , Sepulchral Primordial , Molten Primordial , Diluvian Primordial , Ob Nixilis, Unshackled , Sire of Stagnation , Utvara Hellkite
1 month ago
Hi! First of all, I like the concept of the deck, it seems pretty cool. However at first sight I can see two issues that you might have with this deck. The first is that you have way too much land! Having 47 lands in a Commander deck is a ton, even with a 8-drop Commander, specially considering that you have quite some ramp.
That takes me to the second issue. You barely have any removal. I would cut about 10 lands and add more removal such as Hero's Downfall , Malicious Affliction , Go for the Throat or Doom Blade . Maybe even some board wipes, Black Sun's Zenith is a pretty cool and mosty unexpensive in black! Finally, you could add some counterspells if that's your jam, if only to protect yourself. Swan Song and Pact of Negation are specially useful in commander. Oh! Also Throne of the God-Pharaoh doesn't seem that useful, in that, you don't have too many creatures, and almost any of them have tap abilities.
As a final note, I like a lot this type of deck, and yours doesn't seem that bad (in spite of the length of my comment haha). Have fun brewing! :D
1 month ago
Interesting changes. In my experience with the new set, Teferi, Time Raveler makes it easy for opponents to combo off since only you can interact with them. Maybe you don't have to deal with infinite combos in your meta?
Have you considered 2 mana land tutors like Farseek , Nature's Lore , Three Visits , etc. instead of some of your artifacts? Tezzeret can untap artifacts which is nice but I prefer the consistency of land ramp.
Why Black Sun's Zenith over something simple like Damnation or Austere Command ? Does the indestructibility come into play? In that case I'd go with Hallowed Burial or Descend upon the Sinful unless you really want that shuffle effect.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General is great and has won me multiple games with her ult.
2 months ago
I'm an Espers player, looking into your deck and i have one thing to say, Muldrotha, the Gravetide it's not a deck wich looks for an answer but a way to get through...
Destroy what's in front of you and don't waste ur time in disrupting others play in their turns.
If you need to sac your things do it in the way everyone loses with you, those things are going to return in ur side pretty easy... i think you need more boardwipes, and tutoring to create the concistency, Diabolic Tutor , Toxic Deluge , Damnation Black Sun's Zenith , Mystical Tutor , Prime Speaker Vannifar for name some... also, Rampant Growth , Cultivate , Kodama's Reach you need to get your lands ASAP if you don't have to many Rocks/Dorks so take advantage of your "green side"
the more mana the best for Muldrotha, the Gravetide
that's my oppinion! :D
3 months ago
Hey buddy! Decent start so far. I never liked how expensive the cost for gorgons was though lol Below are a few ideas that came to mind that might help with Hapatra and your death theme.
Some Creatures to consider:
3 months ago
In EDH, when a player with a blue source and at least mana in other sources open on a field. It is a threat. It is a threat not because of a 7 mana spell, but a 2 mana spell, not a spell that deals damage, counters spell, destroys permanents, tutors, or cheats costs, but a bounce spell.
Cyclonic Rift , C-Rift, the big wave, whatever you call it, people know it as one of the strongest, most backbreaking spells in all of EDH, if not the best card in the format.
I am here to say that is isn't.
Part of my series on why other popular staples aren't good ( Phyrexian Arena , Rampant Growth ), or are simply not good in a specific way ( Rhystic Study ), I am not here to deny the power that a card like Cyclonic Rift has, but simply that it isn't a good enough card to warrant the hate or love that it receives.
Before I go over why it isn't good, I need to go over why at nearly every power level, it is good.
In casual EDH, the 50% or less, the Precons, the jank, lies it's the weakest state.
That is where all removal spells, sweepers, or countermagic is the weakest, especially bounce. If no one has threatening boards, why remove them. You'd rather spend 7 mana on a spell to improve yours most of the time, yet those games go long, the Cyclonic Rift acts as a Fog to save you, Sleep to get in for damage, or real removal if you use it on a player's end step if they have to discard just after.
Almost all cards that show heavy play at higher levels show some play at lower ones, and while the price-tag may limit it for most casual players, it does work.
At the 75% or the middle tiers of EDH, where I think EDH players mostly lie, it where it is the most powerful. IF it destroyed any number of target nonland permanents, it would be weaker, because of three reasons:
75% decks often use permanent-based engines to support their gameplan. Think Beast Whisperer along with a deck full of cheap elves, or Paradox Engine in a deck will a lot of Temple Bell effects and mana rocks.
These decks and their creators often expect opponents to remove threats, so have many threats to remove.
They try to protect against sweepers, the only punishing cards for going so wide, with anti-sweepers, think Heroic Intervention , or Boros Charm , and protect against some single-target removal with effects like Darksteel Plate .
Because of this, and because indestructible and hexproof don't protect against a mass bounce effect, along with Cyclonic Rift being the only mass bounce at instant speed that doesn't affect you at all, and doesn't target, it is truly the best anti-75% sweeper by many standards.
In the competitive setting, while not bad, it is mostly relegated to being a 2 mana Chain of Vapor or a Into the Roil that doesn't draw a card, that can let a combo deck get through stax locks once in a blue moon.
Don't get me wrong, being relegated to a slightly worse Chain of Vapor isn't an insult. Chain of Vapor is possible the best removal in cEDH, as decks like Kess consultation or P-Hulk variants Laboratory Maniac wins, and for 1 blue mana, or two in the case of Cyclonic Rift , you get to bounce their wincon as they draw off an empty deck, so they lose...
That is some powerful stuff.
So why isn't it the best EDH card, an efficient spell in nearly any metagame? 2 options for removal, one that crushes many lists and the other a sleek and useful trick?
Because it isn't hyper-efficient, nor is it unbeatable, nor is it irreplaceable.
To start, many cEDH decks that run it run consistent amounts of countermagic to protect it's possible great effect, and numerous cards could fit the spot. It isn't alone. Blink of an Eye , the second Into the Roil has been used over it in many combo lists that more mana-efficient options and many forget the slot all-together, in favor of a cantrip or other removal spell like Abrade or whatever. It isn't very dominant there, and so is easy to explain why it wouldn't be amazing there.
In casual lists, Cyclonic Rift costs about as much as half of many of the casual decks, or even more than some entire casual decks that I have seen. Bringing money-cards wins there, as would a Consecrated Sphinx that costs less money, and I'd wager would have more powerful an effect. Again, an easy argument, but I believe it works.
The really hard place to argue against Cyclonic Rift on the surface is the middle tiers. The 75% lists. Legitimately, I think it is because in the 75% players don't consistently a highly interactive 'metagame'. They just prefer to be interactive 'ingame'.
This comes down to theory, however, when a deck, for example, an elf list abusing the Llanowar Elves style effects along with untap effects to keep making mana, dumping it into something like Ezuri, Renegade Leader . All of that deck and many others get shut down by Null Rod . While that card may be less powerful than other cards against any random deck, as many players know exactly what decks they face, they can play to those decks.
This means general removal, like Anguished Unmaking may be worse if artifacts and walkers don't see much play, you'd rather Mortify . Or if instant speed doesn't help you much, as a lot of City of Solitude / Dosan the Falling Leaf effects exist in your meta, Vindicate , etc.
This is pretty basic knowledge, however, the point here is that there are many, many replacements for Cyclonic Rift in different metagames, and I want to share the ones, only in mono-blue, that in the 75% are why Cyclonic Rift is overrated.
This isn't to say it isn't the best, but that if many, many replacements cost way less $$$ and are occasionally better, that one card shouldn't be considered the best in every situation.
Aether Gale , sorcery, only hits six things, has to hit your things if you don't have enough targets of only your opponents, targets, etc. Yes, there are reasons this is clearly worse.
Why is it better? Politically, you don't have to hit cards from players you team with. Similarly, if you like the Howling Mine on someone's field, don't bounce it. Someone Banishing Light ed someone else's threat you can't deal with? Don't bounce it.
Also, 18 cents. Compared to ~20 dollars and I think it is a steal for budget lists.
Also, it is 2 mana cheaper, despite not being an occasional Disperse .
Evacuation , the downside is simple, it doesn't hit non-creatures, and bounces your own things.
The upsides are for decks that want their own things bounced. ETB effects like Mulldrifter (You can respond to the sacrifice on evoke if you want!), Archaeomancer (infinite sweepers by returning Evacuation , or just recur another card), Duplicant , Solemn Simulacrum , etc.
It is 5 mana too, still an instant, and is only 2-3 dollars right now.
Other options for this could be AEtherize , Whelming Wave , Inundate , Engulf the Shore , Profaner of the Dead , or Scourge of Fleets if you just want mass creature bounce, each with ups and downs, some that only hit opposing creatures, some that are instants, some with graveyard synergies, etc.
For mass nonland bounce that doesn't target? There are tons of options, plenty with lower mana costs than Cyclonic Rift .
Take Coastal Breach . It does a mass bounce for just 4 mana (with 3 opponents), leaving you enough to rebuild first, and being able to be cast much faster, making up slightly for the sorcery speed.
Or Crush of Tentacles , 6 mana? 5 mana and an 8/8, it needs to be in a deck with enough cheap drops to hit surge to be worth it, but an option.
Devastation Tide is a personal favorite, if you run Aminatou, Brainstorm , a lot of scry, Mystical Tutor , Long-Term Plans , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , or are lucky, it is a 2 mana bounce everything. Really strong, however, sorcery (unless you cast it with Miracle on an opponents turn.
Run really high mana cards? Displacement Wave can be better,
Like a big creature attached? Kederekt Leviathan . It even comboes with flicker effects, or can be repeated for 2 mana with an effect like Animate Dead or 3 mana at instant speed whenever with Necromancy in black/blue.
Only need to target one player for political reasons? River's Rebuke .
A lot of one color in the meta? Wash Out
Artifacts/Enchantments? Reduce to Dreams
Even outside of bounce effects, Ixidron can do work xD
Point is, there are options. Even outside of blue, sweepers that can get around the normal protection is seriously strong. Terminus , Hallowed Burial , along with most mass exile effects in white from Play of the Game to Final Judgement / Descend upon the Sinful to the new Urza's Ruinous Blast , etc. Mercilous Eviction in W/B, the -x/-x effects in black like Toxic Deluge or Black Sun's Zenith , etc. in any color, Perilous Vault exists.
These are half of why I think Cyclonic Rift is overrated. Not because it isn't great at what it does, but that it isn't that much better than the rest.
The other half is simple.
Every color (sorry colorless) has answers to Cyclonic Rift off the top of my head.
Black? Many lists abuse cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or other discard to remove powerful cards from opposing decks.
Green? Ugh... Yeah, I guess some colors don't have answers...
(Gutteral Response if they ever make hybrid legal in mono-colored xD)
That's all. Thoughts?
Black Sun's Zenith occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.04%