|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2014 (C14)||Rare|
|Mirrodin Besieged (MBS)||Rare|
|Mirrodin Besieged: Phyrexia (MBP)||Rare|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
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Black Sun's Zenith
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature. Shuffle Black Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
|Have (6)||Zyrook , , gosora , robbnoble , Forkbeard , metalmagic|
|Want (5)||Xydroth , paperstax , Luarviq , Carn13 , ArcticAimee|
Black Sun's Zenith Discussion
1 month ago
Hey buddy! Decent start so far. I never liked how expensive the cost for gorgons was though lol Below are a few ideas that came to mind that might help with Hapatra and your death theme.
Some Creatures to consider:
1 month ago
In EDH, when a player with a blue source and at least mana in other sources open on a field. It is a threat. It is a threat not because of a 7 mana spell, but a 2 mana spell, not a spell that deals damage, counters spell, destroys permanents, tutors, or cheats costs, but a bounce spell.
Cyclonic Rift , C-Rift, the big wave, whatever you call it, people know it as one of the strongest, most backbreaking spells in all of EDH, if not the best card in the format.
I am here to say that is isn't.
Part of my series on why other popular staples aren't good ( Phyrexian Arena , Rampant Growth ), or are simply not good in a specific way ( Rhystic Study ), I am not here to deny the power that a card like Cyclonic Rift has, but simply that it isn't a good enough card to warrant the hate or love that it receives.
Before I go over why it isn't good, I need to go over why at nearly every power level, it is good.
In casual EDH, the 50% or less, the Precons, the jank, lies it's the weakest state.
That is where all removal spells, sweepers, or countermagic is the weakest, especially bounce. If no one has threatening boards, why remove them. You'd rather spend 7 mana on a spell to improve yours most of the time, yet those games go long, the Cyclonic Rift acts as a Fog to save you, Sleep to get in for damage, or real removal if you use it on a player's end step if they have to discard just after.
Almost all cards that show heavy play at higher levels show some play at lower ones, and while the price-tag may limit it for most casual players, it does work.
At the 75% or the middle tiers of EDH, where I think EDH players mostly lie, it where it is the most powerful. IF it destroyed any number of target nonland permanents, it would be weaker, because of three reasons:
75% decks often use permanent-based engines to support their gameplan. Think Beast Whisperer along with a deck full of cheap elves, or Paradox Engine in a deck will a lot of Temple Bell effects and mana rocks.
These decks and their creators often expect opponents to remove threats, so have many threats to remove.
They try to protect against sweepers, the only punishing cards for going so wide, with anti-sweepers, think Heroic Intervention , or Boros Charm , and protect against some single-target removal with effects like Darksteel Plate .
Because of this, and because indestructible and hexproof don't protect against a mass bounce effect, along with Cyclonic Rift being the only mass bounce at instant speed that doesn't affect you at all, and doesn't target, it is truly the best anti-75% sweeper by many standards.
In the competitive setting, while not bad, it is mostly relegated to being a 2 mana Chain of Vapor or a Into the Roil that doesn't draw a card, that can let a combo deck get through stax locks once in a blue moon.
Don't get me wrong, being relegated to a slightly worse Chain of Vapor isn't an insult. Chain of Vapor is possible the best removal in cEDH, as decks like Kess consultation or P-Hulk variants Laboratory Maniac wins, and for 1 blue mana, or two in the case of Cyclonic Rift , you get to bounce their wincon as they draw off an empty deck, so they lose...
That is some powerful stuff.
So why isn't it the best EDH card, an efficient spell in nearly any metagame? 2 options for removal, one that crushes many lists and the other a sleek and useful trick?
Because it isn't hyper-efficient, nor is it unbeatable, nor is it irreplaceable.
To start, many cEDH decks that run it run consistent amounts of countermagic to protect it's possible great effect, and numerous cards could fit the spot. It isn't alone. Blink of an Eye , the second Into the Roil has been used over it in many combo lists that more mana-efficient options and many forget the slot all-together, in favor of a cantrip or other removal spell like Abrade or whatever. It isn't very dominant there, and so is easy to explain why it wouldn't be amazing there.
In casual lists, Cyclonic Rift costs about as much as half of many of the casual decks, or even more than some entire casual decks that I have seen. Bringing money-cards wins there, as would a Consecrated Sphinx that costs less money, and I'd wager would have more powerful an effect. Again, an easy argument, but I believe it works.
The really hard place to argue against Cyclonic Rift on the surface is the middle tiers. The 75% lists. Legitimately, I think it is because in the 75% players don't consistently a highly interactive 'metagame'. They just prefer to be interactive 'ingame'.
This comes down to theory, however, when a deck, for example, an elf list abusing the Llanowar Elves style effects along with untap effects to keep making mana, dumping it into something like Ezuri, Renegade Leader . All of that deck and many others get shut down by Null Rod . While that card may be less powerful than other cards against any random deck, as many players know exactly what decks they face, they can play to those decks.
This means general removal, like Anguished Unmaking may be worse if artifacts and walkers don't see much play, you'd rather Mortify . Or if instant speed doesn't help you much, as a lot of City of Solitude / Dosan the Falling Leaf effects exist in your meta, Vindicate , etc.
This is pretty basic knowledge, however, the point here is that there are many, many replacements for Cyclonic Rift in different metagames, and I want to share the ones, only in mono-blue, that in the 75% are why Cyclonic Rift is overrated.
This isn't to say it isn't the best, but that if many, many replacements cost way less $$$ and are occasionally better, that one card shouldn't be considered the best in every situation.
Aether Gale , sorcery, only hits six things, has to hit your things if you don't have enough targets of only your opponents, targets, etc. Yes, there are reasons this is clearly worse.
Why is it better? Politically, you don't have to hit cards from players you team with. Similarly, if you like the Howling Mine on someone's field, don't bounce it. Someone Banishing Light ed someone else's threat you can't deal with? Don't bounce it.
Also, 18 cents. Compared to ~20 dollars and I think it is a steal for budget lists.
Also, it is 2 mana cheaper, despite not being an occasional Disperse .
Evacuation , the downside is simple, it doesn't hit non-creatures, and bounces your own things.
The upsides are for decks that want their own things bounced. ETB effects like Mulldrifter (You can respond to the sacrifice on evoke if you want!), Archaeomancer (infinite sweepers by returning Evacuation , or just recur another card), Duplicant , Solemn Simulacrum , etc.
It is 5 mana too, still an instant, and is only 2-3 dollars right now.
Other options for this could be AEtherize , Whelming Wave , Inundate , Engulf the Shore , Profaner of the Dead , or Scourge of Fleets if you just want mass creature bounce, each with ups and downs, some that only hit opposing creatures, some that are instants, some with graveyard synergies, etc.
For mass nonland bounce that doesn't target? There are tons of options, plenty with lower mana costs than Cyclonic Rift .
Take Coastal Breach . It does a mass bounce for just 4 mana (with 3 opponents), leaving you enough to rebuild first, and being able to be cast much faster, making up slightly for the sorcery speed.
Or Crush of Tentacles , 6 mana? 5 mana and an 8/8, it needs to be in a deck with enough cheap drops to hit surge to be worth it, but an option.
Devastation Tide is a personal favorite, if you run Aminatou, Brainstorm , a lot of scry, Mystical Tutor , Long-Term Plans , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , or are lucky, it is a 2 mana bounce everything. Really strong, however, sorcery (unless you cast it with Miracle on an opponents turn.
Run really high mana cards? Displacement Wave can be better,
Like a big creature attached? Kederekt Leviathan . It even comboes with flicker effects, or can be repeated for 2 mana with an effect like Animate Dead or 3 mana at instant speed whenever with Necromancy in black/blue.
Only need to target one player for political reasons? River's Rebuke .
A lot of one color in the meta? Wash Out
Artifacts/Enchantments? Reduce to Dreams
Even outside of bounce effects, Ixidron can do work xD
Point is, there are options. Even outside of blue, sweepers that can get around the normal protection is seriously strong. Terminus , Hallowed Burial , along with most mass exile effects in white from Play of the Game to Final Judgement / Descend upon the Sinful to the new Urza's Ruinous Blast , etc. Mercilous Eviction in W/B, the -x/-x effects in black like Toxic Deluge or Black Sun's Zenith , etc. in any color, Perilous Vault exists.
These are half of why I think Cyclonic Rift is overrated. Not because it isn't great at what it does, but that it isn't that much better than the rest.
The other half is simple.
Every color (sorry colorless) has answers to Cyclonic Rift off the top of my head.
Black? Many lists abuse cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or other discard to remove powerful cards from opposing decks.
Green? Ugh... Yeah, I guess some colors don't have answers...
(Gutteral Response if they ever make hybrid legal in mono-colored xD)
That's all. Thoughts?
1 month ago
So for upgrades Wedge recommended Devoted Druid , Parallel Lives , Cauldron of Souls , Black Sun's Zenith , Skullclamp , Beastmaster Ascension , Seshiro the Anointed , Blood Artist , and Triumph of the Hordes . I have most of these cards, but I don't know what to take out. I have Parallel Lives , Black Sun's Zenith , and Triumph of the Hordes on hand right now, so those are the ones I would like to substitute for other cards.
2 months ago
Looks like a mean deck! XD
I'd recommend cutting Spiteful Visions , as it doesn't have synergy with anything else in your deck. In fact, it's likely to hurt you worse, since you'll be drawing extra cards due to Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice . It really belongs in a deck that focuses on forcing your opponents to draw/discard extra cards every turn.
Crumbling Ashes will really deter your opponents from attacking or blocking, since a single point of damage to that creature will allow you to destroy it on your next turn. Also note that it stacks — having two Ashes out will mean TWO creatures destroyed per upkeep. But note you have to be careful with that card, because it's not a "may" ability and doesn't target just creatures your opponents control, so you'll end up killing your own creatures if they've been damaged with Everlasting Torment out.
Nest of Scarabs is nice because you get a scarab for EACH point of damage your wither creatures deal, and most of your creatures are high power. It's a win-win for you — either your opponents block and you amass a swarm, or they don't to avoid giving you the Nest trigger and thus you get extra damage through.
If you run Nest of Scarabs, a final card you could consider is Black Sun's Zenith , which goes nuts with the Nest. The triggers from Nest will go on the stack before any small creatures die to BSZ, and even though a 1/1 will die to a single -1/-1 counter, you'll still get a scarab for however many counters you actually PUT on the creature. So say there's 6 total creatures on the board and you BSZ with X=3, you'll get 18 scarabs!
2 months ago
Also adding blue would give access to things like Deepglow Skate , Skeleton Ship , Vedalken Anatomist , Fuel for the Cause , Corrupted Conscience , Viral Drake , Thrummingbird , and most importantly, Inexorable Tide . Add Thassa, God of the Sea to make your creatures unblockable, while giving a scry each turn, and it seems like it should be an easy.
So overall, I think the deck would be better dropping either dropping green completely and replacing it with blue, or dropping cards like Vraska the Unseen , Golgari Charm , Putrefy , and Scuzzback Scrapper and replacing them with the blue cards mentioned above.
2 months ago
I'd recommend running atleast one ore two more boardwipes, while Crux of Fate is great with Skithiryx stuff like Damnation , Mutilate , Black Sun's Zenith and Decree of Pain should be considered aswell. :D
Expedition Map can help you find Urborg or Cabal Coffers if you are missing one of the two.
Hope any of this helps you :D
3 months ago
I built a Sigarda, Host of Herons voltron deck a while back, with the aim to make the commander as hard to kill as possible. I filled the deck with ways to make her indestructible, so combined with her hexproof and ability to prevent sacrifice effects means that the only real way of removing her is global neg effects (like Black Sun's Zenith and Toxic Deluge ).
3 months ago
Have you considered Black Sun's Zenith before? A few counters on your creatures will prevent them from dying, and all of the death's resulting from having toughness reduced to 0 or less are additional sacrifice triggers.
Black Sun's Zenith occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.04%