Help! Newbie Questions - token Selesnya build staples???
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 28, 2014, 2:05 p.m. by JRaynor
I've been playing magic for about 6 months now and the recurring question that I have noticed as I travel to my local gaming shops to look for a quick pick up game is: "Do you have a commander deck?" Eventually I picked up a couple of pre-con commander decks on sale somewhere and gave them a try against each other, and after long consideration I have finally come to the point where I feel ready to tackle the construction of my own commander deck.
Selesnya has been a favorite color combination since I started the game so the first decision I made was to axe my casual G/W token populate deck and let the pieces serve as the foundation for what will hopefully be my standby for EDH games.
Now here's the rub. I have NO idea what I'm doing. Building a successful EDH seems to be completely different with entirely different rules than building a standard deck. Consistency is thrown out the window in favor of.... ? I don't know but I'm lost and so I come to you all for guidance.
Help! What staples should I be acquiring for this build or for the format in general? How many lands do I need? How do you even go about doing this. I have 2 primary candidates for commander in Rhys the Redeemed and Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and I even have a 100 card deck built and sitting on my desk here but after finishing picking 100 cards out of 150+ or so options I realized I had no idea what I should be looking for or what to expect in a EDH build.
Thanks community!
I realized after submitting that comment that I suggested a whole lot of expensive cards without asking where your budget was at. Yeesh. My bad.
August 28, 2014 2:21 p.m.
Time to triple post (and also be more general in my descriptions)!
Token decks basically run off anthem effects (cards that boost creature's power and toughness). With Commander, it can't really be just a +1/+1 like Glorious Anthem , because you've got twice as much life to go through per opponent, and there are usually at least two opponents. Anthems in EDH, then, either have to give a bigger bonus (like Coat of Arms or Beastmaster Ascension ) or have a really good effect besides the +1/+1 (Mirari's Wake or True Conviction ).
As for the cards that make the tokens themselves, like I said above, there either have to be a lot of tokens for a one-shot effect (like Avenger of Zendikar , Hornet Queen , or Increasing Devotion ), make really big dudes (Rampaging Baloths ) or have an immediate effect on the board (Martial Coup ).
August 28, 2014 2:31 p.m.
erabel basically suggested most of the token necessities. I'm a fan of Harmonize and Garruk, Primal Hunter as more draw since the colors are rather weak in that aspect.
Aside the token build, you'll need some utility. I like 's ramp, and I recommend using Cultivate
, Kodama's Reach
, Krosan Verge
and Skyshroud Claim
supported by Courser of Kruphix
, Oracle of Mul Daya
, and Exploration
. Sensei's Divining Top
is expensive but is good utility. Sol Ring
is a must. Tooth and Nail
and Chord of Calling
are convenient tutors. Craterhoof Behemoth
is a chunk of change but is 's best finisher.
Removal is important in the format, usually runs both Path to Exile
and Swords to Plowshares
while offers you Krosan Grip
.
August 28, 2014 2:43 p.m.
Gaea's Anthem , Martial Coup , Nomads' Assembly , Parallel Evolution , Saproling Symbiosis , Overrun , Aura Mutation , Aura Shards , Kazandu Tuskcaller , and If you've got Rhys as your commander, you MUST run Nacatl War-Pride , If you activate Rhys' ability to double tokens as War Pride is attacking, you get to keep the Copys, and dear lord does it get out of hand quickly if they don't have an answer.
August 28, 2014 3:02 p.m.
KSULongneck says... #7
Advent of the Wurm and Wake the Reflections . Also, Wayfaring Temple
August 28, 2014 3:20 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #8
With tokens, I also quite enjoy ways of buffing your creatures for that final smash. Craterhoof Behemoth , Kamahl, Fist of Krosa , Overrun , Overwhelming Stampede , Triumph of the Hordes or even Baru, Fist of Krosa after landing a Boundless Realms are decent options.
Also use Regal Force to give you some more cards, it works wonders when you have a pile of tokens out.
August 28, 2014 3:27 p.m.
Tthe format needs more value than what those cards offer. Voice of Resurgence is better than Wayfaring Temple . Wake the Reflections is a waste of a slot. The mana is much better in the format, go for value with Armada Wurm in place of Advent of the Wurm .
Overwhelming Stampede is better than Overrun in token decks.
August 28, 2014 3:29 p.m.
Whoa... I'm in awe. you guys are just awesome. Even the advice on the "obvious" is amazing. I didn't even know Aura Shards existed.
As to budget, it's not too restricted. I did just buy a Rhys the Redeemed after all so I'm fairly committed. Still, I am rather unlikely to pick up Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Doubling Season until the rest of the deck is pretty much up and running just because as a new player I'm still trying to split my money between rare land sets and cards I'll actually play in my decks.
Illusionist's Bracers though? What's the purpose of that. Am I equipping it to Rhys the Redeemed or...? I'm not sure I completely understand how that works.
Is Courser of Kruphix worth running even though it's not a token producer?
Would you consider Intangible Virtue to have enough advantage in its anthem effect to be worth running
Should I really be running Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares over Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light or should I be running all 4? For that matter, how much removal do I need for the entire deck.
What about curve and average CMC? I currently have more than half my non-land cards 3 CMC and below and when deciding what to keep and what to replace.
okay I'm gonna go ahead and post this while I continue to reread your posts and think of new questions. Thanks so much already erabel, Osang, Volsungz, and KSULongneck
August 28, 2014 3:30 p.m.
Vigor is also a thing. Woodfall Primus for more utility.
August 28, 2014 3:30 p.m.
Removal is key. I'd run 3 or all 4 since you're not likely to run your own board wipes if you want to develop your board. Wasn't a fan of Intangible Virtue .
I like this deck and have thorough experience playing with and against it. Though it uses Trostani, Selesnya's Voice , it still uses the token aspect as a theme and win condition.
The All-Mother Playtest
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 78 | 2 COMMENTS | 12216 VIEWSAugust 28, 2014 3:37 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #13
jraynor Illusionist's Bracers is for Rhys's second ability. You get to double the number of tokens you have twice, which is really useful.
Courser of Kruphix is good depending on the amount of lands that you are using. Typically EDH decks will have around 35 or so lands. If you are missing your land drops, then it might be useful. I personally think Oracle of Mul Daya is better for EDH since you get to ramp faster.
For token decks, spot removal is best. You can ignore most creatures, and remove only the ones that can kill your tokens or kill you.
Also another card I forgot about that could be good is Eldrazi Monument . It lets your tokens survive board wipes, which are fairly common in multiplayer EDH
August 28, 2014 3:43 p.m.
okay, a bunch more replies showed up while I was typing my last one. Thanks! So.... Yeah I have a long way to go. I'm clearly still thinking in terms of a normal deck, so I really appreciate all this help. The options are really exciting.
So... Voice of Resurgence over the Wayfaring Temple . and... Armada Wurm over Advent of the Wurm . Is there any reason not to just include both? Advent of the Wurm is one of the reasons I keep playing G/W Selesnya tokens. It's just so much fun.
WTF Aura Mutation is so good
Volsungz dude you're a genius. I remember coming across Nacatl War-Pride way back and dismissing it because the CMC was too high. That interaction is sick and I know I have at least one laying around in a dusty box somewhere.
This is more addendum to my last post than new post. Please don't skip last questions! THanks :D
August 28, 2014 3:51 p.m.
The CMC isn't extremely important, since most EDH games go on for awhile, which is why it's fun, and lets you play some expensive cards wise. But removal, and tutors are pretty big, so when someone else has something you don't want them too, you have a chance to get rid of it. Check out some of these: Faith's Fetters Great to stop commander damage, or to stop a creature/planeswalker with annoying abilities. Condemn On someones commander can just ruin their day sometimes. Oblation Another tuck option. Prison Term Can get onto hexproof and shroud creatures, thanks to it's ability to go onto a creature without targeting it. Path to Exile , Oblivion Ring , Return to Dust , Swords to Plowshares , Beast Within , Krosan Grip , and Naturalize are your normal removal staples, as can be Selesnya Charm . Austere Command can destroy basically anything,
August 28, 2014 4:11 p.m.
You've put my mind at ease Volsungz + holy cowabunga @ uses of Prison Term and Faith's Fetters I have both those cards and didn't know they could be used that way. With Condemn though, when the commander leaves the battlefield, doesn't the opponent have the option to put it back into the command zone?
Thanks for the explanation lemmingllama. I pulled an Illusionist's Bracers in my last draft and was disappointed. HA! Thanks again erabel for bringing it up. Run for the lols indeed. Epic. Also I appreciate the analysis on spot removal. Eldrazi Monument is a great idea but it's not a cheap card. It's definitely a consideration as I hate being board wiped, though.
Osang Vigor is out of my price range but on my wish list. Thanks also for linking to that deck. I love the description and enjoyed the indepth analysis on their playing style.
More questions
Is 35 lands really enough?
Sundering Growth over Naturalize ? I don't see any downside to it. And what about Ray of Revelation does the flashback make the narrower focus worth inclusion?
Rain of Thorns came in one of my precon commander decks. Worth running?
Congregate yay or nay, not worth it?
What about the other artifacts that are run in all the precon commander decks like Thousand-Year Elixir and Swiftfoot Boots ?
There's a lot of focus from you all so far on Anthems. Should I be removing my individual buffs? ie. no more Rancor , Angelic Destiny , or Behemoth Sledge
Thanks to everyone for the wonderful feedback so far!
August 28, 2014 6:47 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #17
When it comes to EDH you have to think big. Rolling in with 20 1/1 tokens and an anthem might seem effective, but it can be lack luster in Commander.
The first thing you have to consider is your arena. If you are playing 1v1 EDH, certain cards will give you a huge advantage, because 1v1 is mostly about speed.
Multiplayer games are totally different. Speed wont necessarily net you a victory. In fact, it might just make you a target. You have to build a deck that can withstand a gauntlet of players before you even get a turn to swing. Cards like True Conviction and Doubling Season are obviously fantastic, but you need to worry about a ton of removal so how and when you play a card becomes more important than what you put down.
To be consistent in multiplayer games, start with your land base. You want to make sure to have a mix of basic and non-basic lands. Avoid "comes in tapped" when possible, unless you get a huge benefit from the land card you are using.
You are going to get permanents wiped off the board. Enchants, Creatures, and Artifacts are free game to a host of removal, so you need focus on being able to play multiple things at once, to get the biggest benefit from each card. With that in mind, ramp never hurts.
You are playing green and white, so getting the really good land ramp cards is easy. Collective Voyage , Cultivate , Explosive Vegetation , Farseek , Growth Spasm , Journey of Discovery , Kodama's Reach , Land Tax , New Frontiers , Primal Growth , Rampant Growth , Search for Tomorrow , Skyshroud Claim , Spoils of Victory , Tempt with Discovery , and Untamed Wilds are all available to you. So really, you just need to pick your poison. Try to avoid enchantment based ramp - you could easily lose your momentum just when you need it most. Generally, not a lot of people focus on land destruction/removal in EDH - it is one of those unwritten rules. Naturally you'll run in to it from time to time, but for sake of argument, land ramp is typically more beneficial than in other formats.
Ask yourself what you want your deck to do. Pick a direction, and stick to it. One of the most common flaws in Commander decks is the constructors inability to focus. You wont have an answer to everything in EDH. Don't clutter your deck with board wipes and removal that don't specifically put you ahead. Find cards that compliment your Commander and their abilities, but not cards that rely on them. Your Commander is vulnerable to getting killed, exiled, tucked, mind-controlled, and a slew of other nasty effects. You want to use your Commander as a boost, putting them down to help you pace the game in your favor.
Worry about card draw. Sitting on 1 or 2 cards all game will put you in a vulnerable position. Find ways to work card draw into your deck. You will have a lot more mana to use in EDH, so make sure you have something to spend it on.
If you want some more deck-specific help, I would be glad to look at what you are using and make suggestions. Simply leave me a comment and a link and I will head over to your deck and take a look.
August 28, 2014 6:56 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind Your advice is gracious and your offer is exceptionally generous. In fact the entire community's response to my cry for help has been absolutely humbling. Thank you! If you wouldn't mind, I would love to take all the advice that has been showered down on me today and marinate on it for 12-24 hours, while I consider the different options I have. As soon as I can I will post the deck for your and everyone else's review.
August 28, 2014 7:14 p.m.
Commanders can go back to the command zone from anywhere except your hand, and the library. so Condemn and Oblation can be very strong, since they have to draw into, or use a tutor on getting it back.
35 can definately run well, especially with alot of the low cost of tokens, and a 1 drop commander, but I'd definately add in some ramp as well.
Sundering Growth actually would be great to run instead, especially with populate. Rain of Thorns I'd say not, but if you want close to that Bramblecrush would be your best bet. It doesn't kill creatures, but honestly with tokens, you've got enough chump blockers, and swarm to not be to threatened, and Bramble kills planeswalkers, as well as any utility land they might have, that's giving you trouble (like Maze of Ith for voltron decks). And speaking of voltron decks, those are the ones that want alot of single target buffs. Since you're doing tokens, your mass buff will help you do more damage. Congregate I'd also say nay, since gaining life, unless you're going to be using it as a resource, isn't worth a card slot, plus with Trostani, you'll be more than ok on life. Also just to mention it again Parallel Lives is a great replacement for doubling season. You'll want some wipes of your own like Hour of Reckoning , March of Souls , Martial Coup , Elspeth Tirel . Like HeroInMyOwnMind said, you should run ramp, and his list is excellent, and also card draw is very very important, especially for getting back after a wipe. Skullclamp will be amazing. Collective Unconscious is good, but could be dangerous late game. Harmonize is always solid, Garruk's Packleader is nice, Greater Good is especially good when you can sac 1/1's till you get what you want. Sylvan Library is pricey, but for good reason, and Garruk, Primal Hunter is also solid. Mentor of the Meek could also find a spot. Also getting cards back from your graveyard can be key in a game. Creeping Renaissance is excellent to get alot of goodies. Eternal Witness is in almost every deck with green I've seen. Recollect , Regrowth , even Restock are worth their salt as well.
August 28, 2014 7:58 p.m.
Get a Skullclamp
Focus on mana base and card advantage and you can do most anything from there.
Any cards that create more cards or have multiple effects tend to be better. For example, Consign to Dust is a better card than Naturalize because you can use one card to eliminate two of your opponent's cards. That is more complicated if you are playing multiplayer - spending a card to set back a single opponent is often a good way to make sure you both lose. In that instance, Tranquility could be an advantageous card.
Get a Skullclamp
August 29, 2014 4:07 a.m.
The Thousand Hills - Community help! - There it is folks. The result of all your good advice. This is a preliminary build with everything I knew I was absolutely going to buy + to give you a good idea of what I have to work with or have already gone out to pick up.
Ohnoeszz :) I will get a Skullclamp :D Thanks for the advice.
Tell me what you guys think! How can I make it better now? I got the majority of the stuff I didn't have yesterday evening by swapping some rare lands and a Thoughtseize to a friend so I haven't really spent any money on this deck yet.
Should I bite the bullet and pick up Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or should I spend the same 25-30 bucks on a variety of smaller cards.
erabel says... #2
If you're going tokens, and you've already got the Rhys, I say use him over Trostani. He speeds up the token production much faster than Trostani.
For
tokens specifically, I'd start with some anthem effects: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
, True Conviction
, Cathars' Crusade
, Collective Blessing
, Coat of Arms
, Beastmaster Ascension
, Mirari's Wake
, and Archangel of Strife
.
Then, token generators. In Commander, you either want a heck of a lot of tokens, or for those tokens to be big. Avenger of Zendikar , Conqueror's Pledge , Entreat the Angels , Hornet Queen , Increasing Devotion , Martial Coup , Rampaging Baloths , and Storm Herd .
There's also the obvious Doubling Season , Parallel Lives , and Primal Vigor ; Aura Shards and Glare of Subdual for some board control; Skullclamp and Slate of Ancestry for drawing many cards, and Illusionist's Bracers for the lols.
August 28, 2014 2:19 p.m.