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Bonus Round Discussion
2 weeks ago
3 months ago
Move over 60-format nerds, it's C21 time!
(Collapsible due to obnoxious wall of text) Show
Starting with the Prismari deck, because an actual reason:
Elementalist's Palette: Yeah this is pretty great. It's a Manalith by default, which is OK, but after a single X-spell it morphs into a Worn Powerstone and keeps going. Zaxara, the Exemplary will enjoy this, among others.
Reinterpret: Fair Mana Drain . Not spectacular but neat none the less.
Surge to Victory: Wow okay. I had to double-check to see that it didn't have the killjoy templating of "one or more"; it's like you're giving everyone a Spellbinder to share, only you're free to go to town with sorceries as well! Token spellslinging anyone? The pumping can be quite game ending in its own right if you got a source of trample. Otherwise, exiling an extra combat spell is probably a reliable thing to do
Rionya, Fire Dancer: Obviously fancy, but she seems a bit torn between spell cards and creature cards, although that could be mended by e.g. using big token spells.
Radiant Performer: Radiate is explosive and all, but would it have killed them to skip the hand casting templating? It seems to me that cheating it out in a timely matter is pretty hard anyway. Oh well, at least it cost the same and you're free to bounce it back to hand for another go
Creative Technique: Meh. Seems inefficient to me if you're just going to cast one random card, while going for two via Demonstrate seems hella risky. I'm guessing the mechanic was made for Archenemy situations in mind.
Sly Instigator: Seems kinda dependent on your playgroup including stompy things, although you might be able to make a themed deck in blue+ where you empower even your opponent's small creatures against each other
Octavia, Living Thesis: I though Quandrix was the college about counting things! Anyway, gogo mono-blue wide spellslinger!
Dazzling Sphinx: It's Chaos Wand on legs; feels kinda more red to me
Veyran, Voice of Duality: this kinda feels like the Elsha of the Infinite to Zaffai, Thunder Conductor 's Sevinne, the Chronoclasm . Bonus Round gets pretty funny here. Also, note that it doesn't double just triggers that explicitly mentions instants and sorceries, so don't forget your Birgi, God of Storytelling Flips and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer s
Moving on to the Lorehold precon, which I must say I found quite disappointing seeing as R&D at that point had caught on to the struggles of boros in EDH and where seeking to address them, and the Prismari cards only amplifies that disappointment for me. Oh well, moving on to the actual cards:
Angel of Ruins & Ruin Grinder: Oh come one Wizards, Landcycling is there to mitigate getting mana screwed, an anti-frustration mechanic. It doesn't warrant increasing the MV of the card they're on to a point where they should be bombs (and the ETB/death triggers don't really justify it either). Yes, I know the face commander can double them from the graveyard for prenium, I don't care.
Digsite Engineer: Not bad, a repeatable Karn, Scion of Urza -2 that could get out of hand in a reasonable and fair matter. Decent direction for white.
Audacious Reshapers: Repeatable Madcap Experiment s on legs. Give them lifelink to skip the downside. Probably abuseable
Bronze Guardian: Ey, Guardian Beast throwback! Meh on the whole tho.
Archaeomancer's Map: reasonable white Burgeoning , not bad; punishes landfall decks a bit. Still, while I'm probably in a bit of a minority on this, I don't think white has that big of a problem with ramp in EDH; the generic rocks work fine IMo
Monologue Tax: See above, even if this isn't bad; while its performance can vary, I don't think you can expect it to be much more than a Worn Powerstone most of the time
Battlemage's Bracers: slightly modified Illusionist's Bracers , I like this
Excavation Technique: With that drawback it could have gone all the way and included lands too. Anyway, again, anti-Archenemy tech right here, more so than the Prismari one, but giving the Archenemy six colored mana to play with seems risky in its own right
Laelia, the Blade Refored: red Phyrexian Arena on legs , kinda. The haste seems like kind of a trap since I think you're often out of mana/already played a land on the turn you get her out. I don't think there's a way to circumvent the "one or more" templating in mono-red; I couldn't find a card that cheaply exiles individual cards alá Alms .
Losheel, Clockwork Scholar: Speaking of color shifted Phyrexian Arena s on legs that can't be readily abused, here's an underwhelming attempt at giving white card advantage. Best I could find for drawing more than one card per turn rotation is Spawning Pit . Don't really expect this to be the mono white messiah we've all been holding out for
Alibou, Ancient Witness: Meh, Golem/rocks tribal I guess? And scry 8 or something seems kinda tedious.
Welcoming voiced disagreements here, I wouldn't mind being proven wrong
4 months ago
Usually, Bonus Round is involved in some capacity, but generally casting and copying spells with Aria of Flame , Guttersnipe , or Sentinel Tower on the field will do it. Or a particularly large number of copies of Brass's Bounty into a sufficiently large Comet Storm . With enough of a back-and-forth of Bonus Round and Reiterate , you can even end up with enough copy triggers that casting Lightning Bolt will be enough to take your opponents from 40 to 0.
4 months ago
The big players in the deck are definitely Bonus Round and Finale of Promise , either of which is usually enough to completely change the direction of the game. Pulling off the Brash Taunter and Blazing Sunsteel combo is also funny whenever it happens, but the playgroup's started to catch wise to the idea that they shouldn't let Taunter or Stuffy Doll hang around unmolested. Though one of my favorite plays actually led to a draw--a Xantcha player had thrown Phyresis onto her and there was no way I was going to win...so I hit her with Arcbond and then dropped Blasphemous Act to take everyone else with me.
While I get the idea behind both Glacial Chasm and Fortune Thief , the reality has been that I'm rarely setting off a symmetrical explosion large enough to take me out of the game. In those cases when Ashling does get sizeable, lifelink from Basilisk Collar or Shadowspear has always been enough to solve the issue. Since lifelink isn't a triggered ability any more since M10, you gain that life at the exact same time damage is dealt, so your life total is never seen to hit zero.
I actually did have Leyline Tyrant in a prior version of the list, but didn't really feel like it was pulling its weight. It was never the card in hand that I most wanted to cast, and after it resolved I rarely had so little to do with my mana that there was much left to bank. Obviously, it pairs very nicely with Braid of Fire , but that was never a consistent enough occurrence to make up for the number of times that it was a dead card that died to Ashling herself half of the time. Because of that, I never really considered Horizon Stone , but the stone not being a creature may make it worth revisiting.
Toralf, God of Fury Flip is a possible inclusion that I've gone back and forth on. On the one hand, he could add up to a decent chunk of additional damage over the course of a game (assuming he doesn't himself die to Ashling too early), and could possibly just wipe out the rest of the table if onboard for a Blasphemous Act . On the other hand, so much of what the deck focuses on is the spellslinging angle, with Ashling serving more as a deterrent and repeatable boardwipe than a win condition. He's definitely on my short list, but I'll need to get in a few more games to feel out whether the latest changes leave any obvious cuts for him.
Birgi, God of Storytelling Flip is in a similar boat to Toralf, albeit with more of the uncertainty tied up in her lower toughness. Both of her sides are useful, both for the effective cost reduction on her front face and the card cash-in from Harnfel, but I simply haven't been able to figure out what to cut.
6 months ago
I love seeing Apex of Power being played in commander, such a fun card. Have you considered adding Fall of the Titans or Bonus Round to the deck? Bonus Round can be a double edged sword but can also be game winning if played at the right time.
6 months ago
I did quite a bit of playtesting, was very happy with Flux Channeler, I'm really thinking hard on adding into my deck. With Mizzix of the Izmagnus in play, a Gamble for a Reiterate (or Electrodominance) get you 2 Experience and then I cast Electrodominance for (+ 2 Experience) gets you to 4 Experience then Reiterate for (+4 Experience). Initiating off a Desperate Ritual or something same result. So a win-con (assuming you have already Drawn/Muddle the Mixture/Spellseeker/Mystical Tutor the Electrodominance).
The lands were a little bit lean, but I think it's because your still 15 cards over, so skewing the testing a little bit.
You could cut Dualcaster Mage / Twinflame / Imperial Recruiter / Vedalken AEthermage since you have Bonus Round combos as a secondary win-con. (Primary being Reiterate + Electrodominance or Turnabout/Finisher).
Also have Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter too. Could add a Runic Repetition combo line too since you already have Mystic Retrieval so only 1 card). I like enjoy the Dualcaster Mage line though because it's only with 1 Experience and a Mizzix of the Izmagnus to copy.
After I got my Intuition from boxing day sale I put Enter the Infinite in my deck, I personally didn't like it, so I took it back out lol, but I get why it's in there! Instead I'm using these tutor win-lines with Intuition: Firemind's Foresight + Past in Flames + Mizzix's Mastery or Turnabout + Past in Flames + Mystical TutorReiterate. I almost feel like Enter the Infinite need a Show and Tell/Omniscience lol, but can't tutor that Omniscience (similar to the Aetherflux Reservoir)
Fork pretty expensive compared to the other copies, could cut that if you don't have one for budget, and too many copy spells, BUT... a Ral, Storm Conduit + any two copy spells is a win, I respect that line too!
Trim 1 of the protection boots (not Lightning Greaves) maybe, you wouldn't want to accidently ever draw 2 and like devastating if you draw all 3. Hexproof > Shroud but Attach > Equip, situational call, would use both in the appropriate situation, like in response to removal Attach is key, especially if you can stack multiple attaches like Equip, opponent responds with removal, in response Attach as a game example.
Your pretty close, couple more cuts and your there. Im still testing T6-8, I had a T4 win with your deck playtesting. I had thought of a T1 and was going to add to my primer when I got to a PC, then I forgot it lol, have to think what it was, I know we have T1 potential.
6 months ago
Still a bit of a rough list, so difficult to make specific card recs but though I would share some experience. I bought the pre-built deck when it came out, and recently did an entire break-down and rebuilt.
Looks like you've got a focus around the proliferate synergies, so I would build around that as a start. The trouble I had was that there are so many (too many) possible combos you can use, and a few different strategies. I've never specifically seen proliferate (X, Wheel, Turns, Wizards) or what I play Storm (without really using storm cards).
Creatures don't build experience counters, so I would be strategic with the purpose of a creature. Ones with limited payoff like Thermo-Alchemist/Guttersnipe (what are you repeatedly casting to win with them, usually in Mizz is infinite mana which leverages a draw library or X spell payoff) or high cost Charmbreaker Devils/Melek, Izzet Paragon will hurt when drawn unless your utilizing for a specific purpose.
Aetherflux Reservoir is the right type of card, but it's tough to get in Izzet (). Whir of Invention/Intuition/Reshape/Etc. I found that if your building your storm count (it's usually drawing library or mana) so it's unnecessary. Similar finishers like Sphinx-Bone Wand have the same challenge, would prefer a Fall of the Titans or a Enter the Infinite in most cases. Ral, Storm Conduit has better payoff with similar function.
Your going to be quite slow with so many tapped lands, plus you have many turn 1 draw payoffs in blue (cantrips), so having T1/T2 mana up is key. Izzet Boilerworks can make infinite mana pretty easily, but outside of that see where you can trim. I'm not sure you need to many Cycling lands either, in Mizz, you generally want to play your lands, the tradeoff will be that early in the game your mana is coming in tapped, but later in the game you can cycle away bad land draws. If your going for mid-range over combo, you'll likely need much more removal/counter/sweepers, if your just want cast large spells, maybe Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge would be a better commander selection for the added tutors. Lands really to break the budget though, I understand, Steam Vents will be critical though, and Fiery Islet is ok priced still.
I like the Flux Channeler I've considered him so many times, because he can build your Experience so Mizzix of the Izmagnus can stay protected in the command zone, and have immediate impact (when played unprotected).
You have Bonus Round, could build some interaction with it, like Seething Song + Reiterate or Frantic Search + Narset's Reversal or Dramatic Reversal + Narset's Reversal, etc. Not sure if you've ever used Commander Spellbook but just enter Bonus Round, and click the , , to filter the list.
Not sure what the Sideboard cards are, using as a intermediary cut list?
I also playtested the Curious Homunculus Flip/Goblin Electromancer types, Baral, Chief of Compliance was good, I would avoid the others, most of the time, I would prefer them to be spells to build the Experience count while providing an ability as well (like draw).
I assume Trinket Mage/etc. are pulling in the mana rocks, but they are only useful if your at a mana/experience level to activate. Trophy Mage for Twinning Staff? Needs a Dramatic Reversal in that case.
Jace's Sanctum doesn't build experience count, it's high CMC for the same ability, I would avoid this type of ability at this cost.
Your 405 Avg CMC is pretty high, you'll have similar challenges that other mid-range has is some games your going to draw hands of cards you'll never be able to play, again depends on your playgroups, but you may find some games it feels like you "do nothing" before the game closes out. I would cut some high CMC cards, bring that down at least below CMC 3, utilize the high CMC cards for win, and try and make then instant/sorcery where you can to get the experience benefit.
I would pick a couple win cons like Bonus Round or Enter the Infinite or Beacon of Tomorrows of something more classic like a Fall of the Titans or Stroke of Genius and build a core around them, that will help you solidify a good 70 card core, then add your mana accelerators and cantrips around them, and bet your at 80 cards and might help make some cuts easy.
Feel free to comment me back, happy to look again once it's paired a bit, or assist with honing in if you have a clear Game-Winning vision that you want to go with?
Good start. +1.
8 months ago
This is already pretty good for casual play. It's actually probably a bit better than a lot of casual decks. (Though not so powerful that you should worry about it). Making the deck legal was the important step.
With play you'll figure stuff out. The biggest thing is that you acknowledge when something is not working and actively do something about it. It will slowly become optimized.
Anyway, I would add some lands. Mathematically, you should have 36 (now at 30). I would add some cheap non-basics, I would go for:
Geier Reach Sanitarium (Synergizes with Commander and helps fix your hand) Isolated Watchtower (Synergizes with your high number of basic lands) Myriad Landscape (Ramps you) Terrain Generator (Ramps you) Command Tower (Both Colors) Temple of Epiphany (Both Colors)
I would still cut a lot more creatures and planeswalkers. In 4 player games, remember that people will only attack you as much as they feel that it is necessary. If it appears that you're doing very little, or you only intervene when necessary, people won't be attacking you. I would replace all but the creatures/planeswalkers that you feel are actually necessary and useful, rather than thinking you need them to attack/block.
Then, you will also probably want 5-10 mana rocks (artifacts that produce mana). Virtually every deck in EDH uses mana rocks, because the ones available with the card pool are generally much better than those in other formats. Good, budget examples are: Sol Ring Arcane Signet Fellwar Stone Mind Stone Thought Vessel Darksteel Ingot Skyclave Relic Prismatic Lens
And lastly, some other good budget cards are (I would recommend you pick some, not all of these):
Dispel Hidden Strings Desperate Ritual Seething Song Past in Flames Burning Inquiry Faithless Looting Mystic Remora Underworld Breach Blood Moon Time Reversal Bonus Round Molten Psyche Mana Geyser Merchant Scroll Echo of Eons Commit / Memory Gitaxian Probe Vandalblast Blasphemous Act Serum Visions Misdirection Flusterstorm Tolarian Winds Ponder Frantic Search
Also, if you ever get bored/tired of Izzet, Nekusar, the Mindrazer can be built to function very well and in a similar manner with virtually all of the cards you already have (or will have).
(Note: Some people who play EDH are very particular about playing against people with good decks. If you see people act uneasy around you because your deck is "too good", just remember that you can always try to lower the power of your deck or find other people to play with.)