Fish Hulk might be a problem...

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Jan. 7, 2020, 1:46 p.m. by GhostChieftain

CEDH speculation time here. With the spoiling of Thassa's Oracle today, the unified hulk discord has announced that 3 decks (shuffle hulk, sacred hulk, and breakfast hulk) have become redundant because they are all now one and the same... Fish Hulk (only a current working title, will probably end up something else). This will have even less interactability than any of the other 3 and the only real way to stop it is countering the Flash or countering the hulk death trigger. It is also compact enough that the new hulk decks will be playing at least as many if not more counterspells than most decks so they can just force this baby through. It will likely be run in both tnt as well as najeela, so 2 decks will be tier 0 with the same win con. One of the players in my group has speculated that this might kill cst as well as the 3 hulk decks.

Imo, this will be bad for the format and we will likely need a banning that hits this hard. Whether it is the new card(unlikely), Flash , or Protean Hulk I am unsure. Once again, this is just speculation as we haven't actually seen what this will do to the meta. Hopefully the rules committee is watching.

SynergyBuild says... #2

What I think makes the deck so strong is that removal does nothing to the combo. Stick the fish on normal cast, then respond to the trigger with Demonic Consultation , no removal like Swords will affect it. Suddenly we have Hushbringer , Stifle , and base countermagic as the only real answers. Before at least with Lab Man and to a lesser extent Jace, you could Swords to Plowshares the man, or Chain of Vapor either, not the amount of answers is cut tremendously, especially in color. Blue/red ( Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast ) or bust ig.

January 7, 2020 2 p.m.

DrukenReaps says... #3

To me it always seemed like of the two, Flash and Protean Hulk that the "problem" card was Flash . Hopefully if any bannings come from this it is flash or the new card... I've been enjoying my casual value hulk and don't want to give it up, dammit.

January 7, 2020 2:06 p.m.

Joe_Ken_ says... #4

I mean I’m also seeing pretty easy Doomsday piles that could be made with her. Just add some cantrip draw spell like Opt and you got an easy win.

January 7, 2020 2:45 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #5

Joe_Ken_ wdym if you just have the Street wraith-Gitprobe-Frantic Search-this you win too. No need for anything complex

January 7, 2020 2:52 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #6

Sheldon stated that rc has seen this and will be looking into it with the help of their "cEDH friends"

January 7, 2020 2:59 p.m.

Joe_Ken_ says... #7

I mean this may actually make them ban Flash finally, but the card in general is just a more abusable lab man.

January 7, 2020 3:10 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #8

Just to catch up any readers who don't understand the combo or its implications

Flash + Protean Hulk has been a pretty potent combo for a while, even for competitive. What makes the addition of Thassa's Oracle so scary is that you can do the entire line in response to the trigger, and the hulk allows you to grab a piece of protection too, and that you don't need to be holding a draw spell/trigger.

  • Protean Hulk dies, trigger stacks and resolves
  • Search for Nomads en-Kor , Cephalid Illusionist Thassa's Oracle and any 1 CMC protection creature like Siren Stormtamer .
  • As they enter the battlefield, the trigger for Thassa's Oracle is stacked
  • You hold priority, and repeatedly use Nomads en-Kor to target Cephalid Illusionist , flipping your library into your GY
  • Resolve the triggers above Oracle trigger. You now have no library, so when the Oracle trigger resolves it will see 2 devotion (for Oracle) being greater than 0 cards in library, and you will win the game
  • Holding up Siren Stormtamer for interaction

That's not even the worst possible combo. You can crack hulk for Grand Abolisher Nomads en-Kor Cephalid Illusionist and any 1 CMC creature. Flip GY, then flashback Dread Return from GY to return Oracle, saccing Nomads, Illusionist, and the 1 CMC critter. Grand Abolisher guarantees safety during combo resolution, and you don't need any more library flip after its done once.

I'm sure you can find other protection piles too. Use Spellseeker to find Silence with Nomads + Illusionist + Dread Return , although that does require using after combo. The point remains that there is flexibility in combo protection with this little guy in play.

Think about Oracle like this. Its 1 CMC cheaper than Laboratory Maniac , and it doesn't need an additional draw trigger to win. It can still win if its removed while the trigger is on the stack, which is HUGE. The only downside is that it only checks upon ETB. This downside is pretty trivial though, as you don't wish to put the creature into play until there's an opportunity to win.

Its basically labman with a draw stapled to it for -1 mana. Normally labman + draw in a hulk package would eat 4 CMC of your 6. This only takes away 2.

So what's the solution? Honestly ban Protean Hulk . That card has been meta dominant since its unbanning. Its a compact, boring wincon, and it being legal makes the combo decks less interesting. Not really a lot of pilot skill in "gotta tutor and draw cards until I have A + B then resolve them holding a (free) counterspell". Yes, casual decks are going to lose out, but honestly kicking the tier 1 decks in the teeth would do wonders to open the competitive scene anyways.

Should we ban the new Oracle? I would argue no. Doomsday isn't a very big meta slice. Its more concerning for Demonic Consultation usages, but I'm still fine with it there, although this card is FAR more dangerous than labman. The difference between those decks and Protean Hulk is that those decks either win or bust at that point. You don't come back from using Doomsday if you get stopped. When Protean Hulk + Flash combo is stopped, they just pivot to yet another backup.

January 7, 2020 4:21 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #9

Imo protean is good, but not completely broken if you take flash out of the equation. I feel like the exact same thing could be said in reverse. It is just that the two of them together are just so devastatingly powerful. Dc or tainted pact should likely also see a banning due to this card I think.

January 7, 2020 4:33 p.m.

Megalomania says... #10


January 7, 2020 5:51 p.m.

DuTogira says... #11

Megalomania that would have been perfect. Maybe if Flash gets banned they can pick up the slack and call it NerfHulk?

January 7, 2020 8:10 p.m.

StopShot says... #12

Honestly Wizards should just print a “fixed version” of Protean Hulk in the next commander set that can’t be broken with combos. Part of the reason Hulk is unbanned is the fact its fun to play with in casual decks. I don’t know how you go about making a fixed version, but removing the casual-play factor probably would have made it easier to reban again. Flash and the Oracle aren’t a problem together until you introduce the Protean Hulk to the mix. If I have to mainboard Burnout because my Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast aren’t enough that should be a clear sign there’s a problem. As a non-blue player Protean Hulk needs to be banned until the day other colors get access to hard counter spells - never.

January 8, 2020 2:06 a.m.

enpc says... #13

StopShot: "Can't be" is very tough to achieve. Unfortunately hulk's mechanic was always screaming to be used in combo and there really isn't much you can do to make a fair version. Honestly, the more fiar version of Hulk that people like to play in casual is Tooth and Nail .

I can't say with certainty, but I think the linchpin here is still hulk out of all of this. Don't get me wrong, fish is stupid. But at least with fish, once it starts going you're at least commited. Hulk just enables too many combos across too many decks.

Well at least if hulk does get banned, with the RC managing bannings the way they do (i.e. unbanning something busted at the same time), then at 2020 is the year of Tinker .

January 8, 2020 3:21 a.m.

Tbf I believe a flash ban would hit only cedh, but a hulk ban kills casual hulks as well. Without flash, hulk becomes substantially more "fair" as a combo enabler

January 8, 2020 10:36 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #15

Personally Flash & Demonic Consultation I think should be banned. Tainted Pact and Protean Hulk I believe are genuinely fair due to their restrictive cost/deck building constraints but the other two are simply busted and even banned in legacy and restricted in vintage for a reason.

January 8, 2020 10:39 a.m.

DrukenReaps says... #16

I'm curious if Flash were banned could Protean Hulk still work competitively? If it does what do you use to make it come out stupid fast? It is one thing, imo, to have a powerful combo it is a whole other thing for that combo to be doable on turn 2. Most of my casual decks run one or more combos. Some of those combos are really tough to deal with at a casual table but they are so slow people still have an opportunity to deal with me before I can do them. It just seems like flash is just as essential to this as protean hulk.

January 8, 2020 12:27 p.m.

DrukenReaps hulk would still work. There are non blue hulk variants that use reanimator strategies, Natural Order , and Academy Rector with Pattern of Rebirth to cheat hulk in to play. Those all require having a sac outlet, so the best hulk deck available afterwards may actually be varolz hulk but I personally am a big fan of abzan hulkweaver.

The thing with the non blue variants is that they are forced to have both a way to get hulk in play and a way to kill it. Flash does both things currently when blue is available.

January 8, 2020 12:45 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #18

I'm not a cEDH player, so would banning Doomsday, Consultation, and Flash be enough?

January 8, 2020 2:16 p.m.

Doomsday doesn't even seem necessary, but I think the other two would. And the best part of those potential bannings is that it really doesn't effect casual players.

January 8, 2020 2:18 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #20

Hulk strategy without flash basically has four parts

  1. Find the hulk
  2. Discard the hulk
  3. Reanimate the hulk
  4. Sac the hulk

Flash is a powerful card for this combo because it basically does steps 2-4. The large amount of creature/general tutors in Green + Black means step 1 isn't too hard either.

There are already decks that exist without Flash as the Hulk mechanism though. These decks are much more "all-in" than FlashHulk, because you usually have some part of the Hulk equation in the command zone. The GB Varolz, the Scar-Striped hulk deck is a great example of this. Leverage high density of creature/general tutors in GB to find Hulk. Leverage high density of 1 or 2 CMC discard outlets in Black to pitch Hulk to GY. Leverage high density of 1 or 2 CMC reanimation pieces in Black to reanimate the hulk. Have sac outlet in command zone to complete the puzzle. Also yes with the proper draws you can hit this combo turn 1 or turn 2, but the important part is that its pretty damn consistent by turn 3.

There's also the matter of Hulk loops with cards like Body Snatcher and Body Double and Phyrexian Delver , allowing you to abuse Hulk death trigger multiple times.

While a deck like that is much more all-in than FlashHulk, its still blisteringly fast and consistent because of Hulk. Other cards like Survival of the Fittest help the consistency greatly and enable the strategy, but once again Hulk is the fatty payoff that leads to wins.

If you ban Flash , you're just asking for the current Hulk deck to be replaced by another Hulk deck. Maybe the delivery method is Razakats instead of Flash. Big whoop. Its the same deck with a new coat of paint. Ban Protean Hulk and lets bust this meta wide open.

As for Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact . Yeah I'm totally fine with them getting banned too. Labman + Consultation combos can go into and UBx deck, and just like Hulk they really aren't very interesting once you seen it once. I'm not really itching to see them banned though.

January 8, 2020 2:38 p.m.

Varolz is basically the only one that does it in the command zone in the way that multi hulk piles want. It is usually just a value commander. You are right that it can be very fast, but in my experience that type of deck needs 3 things to happen for a super fast win. No grave or search hate, a good hand, and the blue player to tap out. Most of the time I have to use removal on their pieces as well as wait until there is an opening.

January 8, 2020 3:21 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #22

Requiring that decks slot and also take opening hands that include anti-hulk material is allowing hulk to dictate not just slots in its own deck, but slots in your opponents decks too. Should people build their decks to intentionally deal with problems? Of course! GY hate is good even in a meta with no hulk. Does that mean players should be required to run anti-hulk tech or lose game after game? Evidently. I'm really not a fan of every deck falling into either "gotta run hulk" or "gotta stop hulk" though. It makes it seem like the card is dominating the format and should be banned :p

For what its worth though, the new Fish Hulk line can completely dodge GY hate after you get Hulk trigger. Part of the reason its so scary and I'm now advocating for a Hulk ban instead of tolerating it.

Even with Hulk lines that go through the GY, the card is just too flexible and good as an enabler. Varolz is the best suited for abusing Hulk outside of Flash, but don't discount Wizards and their ability to make a bad problem worse with new printings. I mean, look at Thassa's Oracle lol.

Also there's a Meren stax/hulk build out there which Hulks thru a Gary loop for 40+ life loss. I'm sure there are even further applications which haven't been explored, such as Hulking to assemble a hard lock and then bleeding out the board. Hulk is also used in Vannifar to assemble combos after the chain.

January 8, 2020 4:14 p.m.

Megalomania says... #23

A guy in this site was suggesting for people to run Extract effects as most combo decks have a “single point of failure”. I think it is worth exploring before advocating for the banning of Hulk since the said strategy allows people to deal not just with Hulk decks, but the current/popular combo deck designs. But then again, i’m prolly just biased since I play a Hulk deck and am looking forward to trying the Fish Hulk variant.

January 8, 2020 5:52 p.m.

enpc says... #24

Megalomania: I know the list you're talking about, however the deck can easily run Laboratory Maniac and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries in addition to Thassa's Oracle with Demonic Consultation , Tainted Pact and Ad Nauseam + Angel's Grace as library emptiers. Yes, Oracle + Consultation is the cleanest line but the others are still fine.

Since Hulk is the primary enabler for this (still), do you think that Trickbind is going to make an appearance since it shuts down both hulk and oracle?

January 8, 2020 11:33 p.m.

Megalomania says... #25

enpc I’m not that big of a fan of Trickbind but I think it might be worth running if people are really going for an anti-Hulk strategy. Really excited to see where this new line would go though. I haven’t read up on the Flash Hulk discussions but i’m sure building around Fish Hulk will present it’s own set of problems.

January 9, 2020 3:45 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #26

Stifle and Tale's End are both cards I run in a lot of my blue midrange-control-stax builds. Almost always Stifle , it is along side Swan Song , Spell Pierce , and Flusterstorm in that regard for stopping things like Hulk triggers and fetchlands, Tale's End having the useful, "normal" counterspell tech for cards like commanders and random cards like a Sai in an Urza deck or a utility walker like Narset in many blue lists these days.

While I recommend Stifle most, I could see Trickbind and Tale's End being more useful with the fish builds taking the metagame by storm.

January 9, 2020 9:52 a.m.

Here is a well written google doc that was shared in a group I am in and thought I would share with you.

January 9, 2020 2:24 p.m.

StopShot says... #28

I read that post and I disagree with Flash being banned over Protean Hulk . And I get the reasoning for it - it would better if we didn’t have to ban deck archetypes outright and Flash makes everything too consistent and fast and easy to hold up counter magic.

I would however argue that this makes Hulk decks easier to stop if you are running a blue deck, but harder to stop if you are running a non-blue deck. My best answers to stop Hulk is Red Elemental Blast , Pyroblast and Nevermore and if Flash isn’t in the picture I’m going to need to board more niche answers possibly over the red counter spells I’d need for other blue decks just to impact hulk decks. Without Flash hulk players will only run a wider array of cards to get the combo going that can make the combo less interactive for non-blue decks. For example if the Hulk player wants to kill their Hulk with say Altar of Dementia that’s fine, I run enough Disenchant effects to stop it before it gets to that point, but if they sac the Hulk with say Diabolic Intent I’m boned. Having more ways to start the combo may be less consistent for Hulk decks, but its a major headache for people without all-purpose counter magic.

I’ve never liked Hulk decks for the longest time and if you had to ask me I would tell you they should have either banned Protean Hulk or at least ban Grand Abolisher , because I hate running cards like Faerie Macabre , Ghost-Lit Raider and Barbarian Ring just to interact around it. Now that Thassa's Oracle is out I don’t think there’s even much reason to use Grand Abolisher over how good the oracle makes the deck which terrifies me honestly. Removing Flash is a major setback I agree, but I can’t help but feel that there will be cards printed in the future which will make the Hulk easy to cheat into play yet again. Not as easy as Flash , but enough for it to be a concern in the meta like it is now. My argument is unless non-blue decks get better answers that aren’t incredibly niche I think Protean Hulk should get the ban hammer now. Whether Flash gets banned or not I’ve decided I’m not going to even address combating this deck archetype anymore when deck-building, because it just makes my deck useless against every other cEDH deck I’m up against if I have to run so many janky answers.

January 9, 2020 5:41 p.m.

Megalomania says... #29

Aren’t we focusing too much on Flash and Hulk instead of building to stop fast combo decks in general? Flash Hulk is quite hard to stop if your meta isn’t heavy on stax/stax pieces. In my limited experience, cards like Aven Mindcensor , Hushbringer , Cursed Totem and even Blood and Magus of the Moon can be quite problematic even to non-Hulk combo decks. I’m quite sure a healthy meta would at least have one or two stax decks that run these cards. I always have fun playing against these archetypes since they force me to play around the said cards. Point is, it’s still a game of archetypes. With the meta generally being in favor of combo decks, why not just lean towards archetypes that match up well against them?

January 9, 2020 9:16 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #30

Megalomania Stax pieces need to hit before the combo. There is both not enough and not cheap enough stax pieces to hit this, as it is a turn 3 instant-speed protected kill.

January 10, 2020 9:21 a.m.

StopShot it also stops being instant speed for the most part as well as needing multiple pieces that can be disrupted. Kill the sac outlet, exile the hulk, counter the spell. As of right now, counter the spell is the only option vs flash. It also gives more time to set up any stax like Megalomania had stated, or more time to get your combo out ahead of them.

January 10, 2020 10:09 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #32

Do you guys even play in competitive pods? Stax is a very easy match up for flash hulk players. Just hold removal before you combo if one of the 6 pieces that shuts you off is actually in play.

With the exception of stax pieces that shut off the flash hulk combo, almost every other stax piece actually helps the flash hulk player, because it lowers interaction from other players and allows them to combo in peace. Yes, the stax will hurt the flash hulk player, but its hurting the other players even more. You're creating an advantage for them by deficit, because the deficit is bigger for other players.

  • Rule of Law and variants don't hamper the finding or executing of flash hulk
  • Sphere of Resistance , Trinisphere , Winter Orb , Static Orb , and similar lower the amount of interaction other players are able to meaningfully hold against the flash hulk. Flash hulk must only assemble 2 mana to execute the combo, so even with tax or slow down pieces it doesn't take long for them to assemble the mana, even under Trinisphere
  • Creature wipes or other board wipes don't really slow the flash hulk game plan, unless your wipe is at instant speed. The new fish hulk allows players to hold priority and fully execute the library flip into GY and stack the trigger before passing priority, negating instant speed wipes as a method for interacting
  • Grave hate pieces are now irrelevant unless they stop the death trigger, as fish hulk can execute without reliance on GY
  • Artifact hate like Stony Silence hits back up lines or fast mana for flash hulk, but doesn't stop the actual hulk
  • Handstax are too slow unless you get a great play like Entomb into Reanimate on a Sire Of Insanity . Incremental handstax like Oppression or Necrogen Mists are certainly strong, but don't dump player hands fast enough to fully stop the flash hulk, but they do whittle away interaction from opponents trying to stop flash hulk

There's only a small handful of cards that stop the flash hulk combo outside of counterspells. We're looking at Pithing Needle Phyrexian Revoker or Sorcerous Spyglass naming Nomads en-Kor . There is also tutor hate with Aven Mindcensor or Stranglehold (and Leonin Arbiter , but thats just a delay, not a hard stop). Finally, you have big creature hate effects like Cursed Totem , Linvala, Keeper of Silence , or Suppression Field . Finally, you have creature hate that removes small dorks, like Plague Engineer , Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite , or Night of Souls' Betrayal

Not all of those pieces are good enough to warrant slotting. Also slotting all of these pieces would lower your card quality significantly, which causes more losses against all decks that AREN'T running hulk (read: the two other players in the pod)

Part of the reason why its such a big slice of the meta and pretty much the deck to beat is because it is highly efficient, there is strong layering, it plays around stax, and the color identity gives it access to big draw engines, the most efficient tutors, and the most efficient removal.

So you land your Linvala against the T&T fishhulk player. All they have to do is continue to draw cards or tutor up a Path to Exile or any other piece of removal before jamming their combo.

So you land your Cursed Totem against T&T fishhulk. They just have to Chain of Vapor at EOT before theirs and they're golden to combo off.

Even if you decide to run Extract and pull the hulk from their deck, the deck isn't dead. You can Thrasios + infinite mana (dramatic scepter most likely) as a win-con. You get labman + consult as a wincon. The deck has very good layering. Even when you shut down the primary goal, it has still been advancing towards the second combo too. The Sylvan Library that was played turn 1 is now digging for consult pieces instead of hulk pieces. The tutors can be used to find those pieces instead. The best part, is that the stax pieces which shut off hulk combo don't shut off the other combos, which is why those combos in specific are layered underneath the hulk package.

I'm going to level with you Megalomania. You have told me you play flash hulk. Then you suggest the solution to fish hulk is to build a deck that makes it easier for fish hulk in pods. Then you say you have limited experience, but "just build the right archetype bro". So my question now is, are you just an extremely bad player who bought a $4000 deck, or are you an angle shooting dickhead trying to spread bad information to help avoid a ban for your $4000 deck?

Honestly, I kind of expect both sides out of flash hulk players. While I do suspect you're a competent dickhead spreading bad info, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you're a dummy who looked up the most popular tier 1 deck and bought it. Either way, I really need you to stop spreading your garbage information by posting. There are already enough bad players on tappedout, we really don't need any more help in that department.

StopShot The effects from Faerie Macabre and Ghost-Lit Raider are activated abilities from a creature, and are thus turned off from Grand Abolisher . Similarly, Simian Spirit Guide is shut off as well. Similarly, Linvala and Cursed Totem also turn off all three of these creature abilities.

Besides that, you do state succinctly why hulk should be banned over flash in response to the article. I agree. Hulk being legal forces specific and jank deckbuilding requirements.

January 10, 2020 3:43 p.m.

Megalomania says... #33

dingusdingo well that was overly aggressive. I did say my experience was limited and my post was in the form of questions instead of assertions so thank you for your very constructive response.

Anyways, I have had numerous experiences of having cards like Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon hitting the board at the most inopportune time. I have also, in numerous occasions had the misfortune of seeing combo attempts ruined by Aven Mindcensor or Containment Priest . An additional 1 cmc to Flash might not look much but who hasn’t experienced not being able to combo off due to being 1 mana short?

Point is compared to other decks, stax is an archetype that has, in my limited experience, stalled me just enough for the rest of the pod to make their respective moves on me. When everyone knows you’re the fastest deck in the pod, they tend to do anything and everything to slow you down. My pod probably isn’t quite as competitive as yours but collectively, they do play enough stax pieces to slow me down. This is why I was ASKING if doing the same would have the same effect against incredibly experienced players such as yourself.

But then again maybe you’re right. Maybe I just have no idea what i’m doing and shouldn’t be asking questions. The site already has enough brilliant players such as yourself who can provide answers to questions that aren’t asked. I’m just curious how often you lose and how many of those games were due to you not holding the removal or counterspell needed or even that third land to win the game?

January 10, 2020 5:18 p.m.

StopShot says... #34

@dingusdingo, I’d humbly like to refer you to the rulings for Grand Abolisher on gatherer particularly the first rule:

As someone who has to put up with the Abolisher variant of Hulk on a regular basis I’m very familiar with the restrictive card pool needed to deal with the Abolisher. Honestly its the reason I’ve been begging Wizards to bring back the keyword Channel for quite some time.

I do strongly agree with your analysis of stax decks and how they impact Hulk decks. Reactive decks are much better at dealing with Flash-Hulk than proactive decks like stax.

January 10, 2020 5:21 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #35

Megalomania The reason you're getting staxed out is because of greedy mana base and card choices in your hulk list.

  1. Weak card quality from running sac outlets AND running narcomoeba + titan AND running Body Snatcher
  2. Natural Order Academy Rector and Pattern of Rebirth are all pretty damn expensive at 4 CMC
  3. No infinite mana combo for Thrasios as an outlet to win
  4. Missing efficient draw pieces like Dark Confidant or Rhystic Study or Runic Armasaur
  5. Lol at Neoform inclusion

You're getting hosed on your mana base from Blood Moon because you run 8 outs for making non-red mana if you don't already have it (4 basics, 3 artifacts, 1 ESG). I understand that traditionally the list doesn't run heavy artifact mana base but not having diversified mana base allows a Blood Moon + Pyroclasm to end your game. I've always believed that to be a weakness of the OG breakfast hulk list and its evident here as well. This is also why I suspect you basically ripped the breakfast hulk list. You're running Tainted Pact mana base and losing to Blood Moon without even running Tainted Pact ahahahahahahahahaha

Tbh I don't suspect you're angle shooting anymore, just that you're bad. Which is better and worse in a few ways. Regardless, its a laugh you think we are too focused on flash hulk in a thread about flash hulk. I'm sorry the brain dead deck you play is the thread topic, but don't shift the conversation to "but the other fast combo does x y and z". After deflecting, you went for "Oh come on bro just play the archetype that shuts it down", then advocated for people to play the wrong style of deck to shut it down.

There aren't good options for attacking or interacting with the flash hulk package, besides aggressive mulligans for specific pieces. There isn't an archetype that shuts it down, just a handful of various quality cards without enough density for regular and consistent interruption. On top of the problem already existing, and the clowns who run the banlist not giving a shit, new printings are exacerbating the problem by allowing for winning hulk lines that hold priority until all the winning elements are stacked.

To answer your question about how much I lose, I lose all the time bud. In a format that is 1v1v1v1 you're not going to get a 50% winrate. The difference between you and me is that if I get absolutely BTFO'd by Blood Moon in my 29 land deck, I make edits to my deck to better play under Blood Moon effects. The problem with Flash Hulk is that if I get BTFO'd by the Hulk, I have to switch my deck colors to include blue to handle it reliably. Do you see the difference? That's why Hulk needs the ban.

StopShot humbled indeed. Thank you for correcting me.

January 10, 2020 7:53 p.m.

Megalomania says... #36

dingusdingo I really don’t get why you seem to be taking all of this too personal. It was a genuine question from a guy (me) with admittedly limited experience. Why in the world are you so offended and what exactly are you trying to prove??

As for my list, it’s a generic Shuffle Hulk list. Was it netdecked from somewhere? Absolutely. I made small changes but the core pieces are very much the same. So if you think those comments on “my” deck-building is going to hit a nerve, you’re out of luck. In case you still haven’t figured it out, I wasn’t trying to turn this thread into a dick measuring contest. I understand that you want Hulk banned so bad but you need to stop trying to take your frustrations on Hulk players out on me.

Is there any way to report this guy? I don’t think his comments are warranted considering I haven’t really said anything that could be considered an attack on him or his views.

January 10, 2020 9:42 p.m.

Daveslab2022 says... #37

Megalomania, I don’t think there’s any way to report him but I will gladly publicly shame him for being an a-hole.

Bro, dingusdingo it’s completely unnecessary for you to have said “I don’t expect that you’re.... just that you’re bad.” First of all, you’re making a lot, a LOT of assumptions in your post, so there’s really no evidence to suggest that he’s actually “bad.”

Also, laughing at somebody? “You run tainted pact mana base but... ahahahahahahaahah” like come on now, did your mom forget to love you? Or do you just have a tiny dick? Why so rude?

January 10, 2020 10:09 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #38

Look, I'm going to lay this out for you Megalomania

Your opinion, unqualified, and subjectively incorrect, is going to make other people who read it worse at the game. Your opinion, freely offered, is for people to pilot lists that make piloting your own list extremely easy. Do you understand why people might take offense to that? Do you understand how giving out wrong information about a $4,000 deck you own looks shady, especially when we are talking specifically about bans, and especially when it directly impacts YOUR DECK?

It looks fucking slimey mate. If it isn't slimey, its embarrassing you are that deep invested into a hobby game and don't even understand how your deck functions against 1 of the big 3 archetypes for the format. Either way, you should stop posting. Can't dig the hole you're in any deeper, except maybe by purchasing another $4000 of cards ahahahahahaha

Daveslab2022 First, I'm not your bro. I have no issue with you, but if you keep insulting me I have no qualms about verbally shredding you. If you fail to grasp how Megadork was acting slimey based upon his own vested interest, or acting extremely incompetent in light of how much his deck cost, it would be a waste of time to speak any further with you.

Also, do you see any irony in what you posted? Asking why so rude while insulting me? Or criticizing assumptions I made while making assumptions of your own about me? Come back and @ me when you've figured out why your post is just as much of a joke as Tainted Pact manabase without Tainted Pact crumpling to Blood Moon . I know those "ahahahahaha's" are brutal, and can send tender posters into their safe spaces, so watch out! I might hahahaha your post! I might ahahahaha at the extremely dumb things people write!!!!!!!


OH MY GOD HES ABOUT TO acknowledge the absurdity of the posters on this thread

Its. . . . coming . . . .


On a more serious note, this thread went from informative to me trolling casuals. Sorry to the posters actually on topic. Anyone who wants to discuss fish hulk can @ me. I can't guarantee I won't haha your posts, but I can guarantee I'll discuss any cards you link.

January 10, 2020 11:52 p.m.

Daveslab2022 says... #39

“Megadork was acting slimey based on his own vested interests.”

My guy. If you think this dudes opinion is going to singlehandedly change WOTC’s opinion about whether or not to ban a card.... My guy.... I have some news for you.

January 10, 2020 11:57 p.m.

Daveslab2022 says... #40

You have some serious ego problems dude. Somebody didn’t like your opinion so you attempt to eviscerate them via words. It didn’t work, and he wanted to report you because your toxicity is not welcome.

I do see the irony in calling you rude and then being rude. It was kind of the point. But yet you’re here calling other people bad and dumb and laughing at them, while ending up being the joke yourself. See ya around, kid. Hope your life gets better and you can stop being so hateful.

January 11, 2020 midnight

StopShot says... #41

@Megalomania, dingusdingo, Daveslab2022, Guys please drop it. I can say this conversation isn't going to wrap up into any helpful conclusion at this rate. I have very strong opinions about this card interaction too, but I don't want to take part in verbal fisticuffs over it. If you're going to write a strong remark anyway at least tone it down a bit. Please?

January 11, 2020 12:03 a.m.

Daveslab2022 says... #42

My apologies. I don’t care about the cards- I care about toxic people being rude just because they dislike another’s opinion.

January 11, 2020 12:13 a.m.

Megalomania says... #43

dingusdingo my post is going to make people who read it worse at the game. Are you serious? Aren’t you being overly dramatic? lol. And why are you trying so hard to look tough over the internet? Compensating?

My comment was done very light-heartedly. It wasn’t “slimey” or completely without merit. How offended you got however suggests more of a psychological issue than a genuine concern for the game. You can try and “troll casuals” all you want but it’s your mental health that is actually getting exposed here. That’s it for me. Really sorry if anyone else got offended. Some people need to remember to take their meds on time though.

January 11, 2020 12:55 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #44

Megalomania Claiming someone is mentally unwell as a method of attacking their character is a tactic reserved for truly the most despicable. You're trivializing the experiences of an already downtrodden group. Even more embarrassing than blowing four grand on a deck that sucks is shitting on people who can't defend themselves.

You notice how I say you're shit, or that you're a prick, or that you're a dickhead? Isn't it interesting how I don't compare you to a marginalized group to make a point? Well, my casual shit talking turned out to be true. You really ARE a giant piece of shit. Congrats on being an ableist turd, hope you do some serious introspection and consider re-evaluating your positions. Oh, and stop posting.

Daveslab2022 What exactly is your point? You have written a handful of posts that consist mostly of well meaning drivel and calling me names. How about you qualitatively talk about cards instead of getting hung up on fake typed out laughter on a forum.

StopShot sorry mate. I came here to discuss cards but I don't tolerate bullshit. Tag me if you have anything interesting to discuss.

January 11, 2020 3:27 a.m.

Megalomania says... #45

dingusdingo It’s not a tactic and definitely not an attack on your character. It’s an observation about how your response to an otherwise unremarkable comment a.k.a. “casual shit talking” is consistent with someone suffering from mental issues. Your insistence on bringing up how much my deck costs is also indicative that you have more personal/psychological issues that need to be attended to so as far as doing some serious introspection goes, better take your own advise ASAP.

January 11, 2020 4 a.m.

I hate to have to call anyone out, but would you all quit insulting each other. If you want to do that elsewhere that is your call, however my intent in making this thread was not to start or facilitate fights and name calling. If you have more to say about the subject and can refrain from rudeness then by all means post more, but if you are just here for name calling I ask that you kindly leave. Be the bigger person and don't respond to the other person's insults.

January 11, 2020 12:09 p.m.

Jinchonrei says... #47

Late response here from a lurker and cedh player who has been checking on this site for a long, long time. I think what needs to happen instead of just a straight ban which seems like the nuclear option, and believe me I always found protean hulks unbanning extremely problematic, and that's coming from a guy who piloted Grieselbrand and leovold when they were legal is that in order to combat those kind of lines of play you need specific cards that shut those combos down and I am not talking about counter spells and Stax cards but cards or cmds for that matter that actively shut down sac outlets specifically designed with that win con in mind. wotc needs to start playstesting more vigourously again. if you start banning cards you just end up laying more waste to to the meta and new lines of play will be formed that become equally problematic. back after the 1st innistrad when commander was fresh I already ran consultation lab man in mimeoplasm it went years under the radar. all I am saying is it would be simpler to print a card that actively stops those lines of play and I hope commander 2020 is giving us that or maybe something that is on equal terms of fish hulk. something that actively opposes this line of play. I also think that thrasios is a sneaky card that has been problematic since it's inception since it adds simic and insane back up lines for whatever you a running if anything fails. At least angels grace can shut down the combo somewhat

February 17, 2020 10 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #48

Jinchonrei The reason these two combos in particular are receiving much attention is because they've become better and easier. They are hard to interact with. Hate pieces that stop them are solved by Chain of Vapor or Winds of Rebuke or Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay or any number of other cheap efficient removal pieces. The best option for handling them is counterspells, which limits the decks that are able to hack it at a competitive table. Its a deck you must be aware of when building and slotting your deck. If you can't handle the hulk, you have to be able to race the hulk. This limits the meta. The problem isn't infinite combos. There are plenty of nice and nasty combos available in the format. The problem is that these two combos in particular are so fast, so brutal, and so hard to stop that it is significantly warping the meta game around them. The printing of Thassa's Oracle collapsed Consult lines from Consult + Labman + Draw to simply Oracle then Consult, saving mana and opening more angles for comboing as you are now on a 2 card combo for discretely winning as opposed to a 3 card combo with a higher mana cost. The consult lines are now faster than they were before, and much safer to execute as you aren't afraid of labman being removed in response to the draw or being forced to draw in response to playing labman. Similarly, Hulk lines gained significantly in that you have winning lines you can stack entirely by holding priority after receiving your Hulk creatures. You also have protection piles available to use in certain circumstances where your meta is open enough to allow Dread Return. Wishing for more hate pieces isn't really going to alleviate the problem, but more cards like Angel's Grace is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, Angel's Grace is usually slotted exclusively in the context of Ad Nauseam, so whatever new cards similar to AG come need to be flexible, cheap to cast, and have value for playing independently outside of a combo or simply stopping Hulk. This is why Counterspell is the go-to method for policing Flash or Demonic Consultation. They stop the wins, but they are also useful against every almost other spell a player can play. AG is a dead draw except if you're holding Ad Naus, someone is about to win, or you are about to lose.

February 18, 2020 2:34 a.m.

Jinchonrei says... #49

I agree with you 100 percent. it's funny I am actually planning on making a YouTube detailing the history of the dreaded protean hulk and it's nasty cohort... flash. what's really funny is back in the day the combo was simply called hulk flash in legacy back in 07 which promptly led to the banning of flash. of course the play lines were rather crude by today's standards since people were just brewing but players back then knew exactly that this combination is as nasty as it can get. it's hilarious reading some really old postings on MTG salvation and other forums about it. people tried show and tell later with a sac outlet which was a much worse hoop to jump through and of course is nowhere near as good. show and tell is almost unplayable in edh as is besides of course casual where I can see this as a fun interaction. reading these old post made it clear for me. flash has to go. it's the main culprit.

February 18, 2020 5:01 a.m.

Jinchonrei says... #50

Also hulk has been banned almost immediately after the legacy debacle. I guess back then they went off the legacy ban list. there is a website (not MTG commander. net) that basically goes as far back as 1996 when they had some vague notions about edh. I do believe hulk is cool and fine but with flash being legal it's just busted beyond repair. people hated Leovold for a 6 Mana combo at sorcery speed but are fine with a 2 Mana instant combo that wins on the spot? you see the issue right here. I understand hulk and flash needs to be tutored up but it's not particularaly hard in several colors.

February 18, 2020 5:35 a.m.

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