Double jeopardy is fairly complicated - you can actually be brought into a criminal court for the same issue under a number of exception. The most common is that the jury was hung, neither making an acquittal or guilty finding, but there are some other oddities as well. For example, if one is found not guilty of crime A, he can be tried on the very same facts and circumstances for crime B, provided crime A and crime B each have an element that is different from one another. Like any area of constitutional law, jeopardy is a legal quagmire of 300 years of cases trying to interpret a rather vague 1/5th of a sentence.
It’s not that double jeopardy applies differently to civil and criminal cases, as your post seemed to imply, but double jeopardy does not apply to civil cases in the slightest (you are never in “jeopardy”). It is entirely possible that Person A can sue person B; then person C can sue person B over the same facts at some point in the future. There are limitations on A suing B a second time over the same facts, but that’s an estoppel issue not a jeopardy one.
Civil and Criminal cases are often tried in the same court with the same set of judges, so saying “you can be brought into different courts” isn’t spot on. More accurate would be “you can have both a civil and criminal case on the same issues.”
You are not acquitted in a civil case. There’s a judgment and you either prevail or you don’t. In complex cases, both parties might prevail on different issues.
Damages are not generally needed to prosecute a crime, though the DA is likely not going to waste its time and money over a relatively minor crime with no damages. Damages mostly go toward meeting one’s burden of proof (it’s a lot easier to show a crime occurred if there is a tangible result) or toward the level of a crime/sentencing (an extremely vicious crime with high damage is going to be tried for a more serious offence and result in longer sentencing).
February 6, 2020 9:34 a.m.
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Jinchonrei The reason these two combos in particular are receiving much attention is because they've become better and easier. They are hard to interact with. Hate pieces that stop them are solved by Chain of Vapor or Winds of Rebuke or Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay or any number of other cheap efficient removal pieces. The best option for handling them is counterspells, which limits the decks that are able to hack it at a competitive table. Its a deck you must be aware of when building and slotting your deck. If you can't handle the hulk, you have to be able to race the hulk. This limits the meta. The problem isn't infinite combos. There are plenty of nice and nasty combos available in the format. The problem is that these two combos in particular are so fast, so brutal, and so hard to stop that it is significantly warping the meta game around them. The printing of Thassa's Oracle collapsed Consult lines from Consult + Labman + Draw to simply Oracle then Consult, saving mana and opening more angles for comboing as you are now on a 2 card combo for discretely winning as opposed to a 3 card combo with a higher mana cost. The consult lines are now faster than they were before, and much safer to execute as you aren't afraid of labman being removed in response to the draw or being forced to draw in response to playing labman. Similarly, Hulk lines gained significantly in that you have winning lines you can stack entirely by holding priority after receiving your Hulk creatures. You also have protection piles available to use in certain circumstances where your meta is open enough to allow Dread Return. Wishing for more hate pieces isn't really going to alleviate the problem, but more cards like Angel's Grace is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, Angel's Grace is usually slotted exclusively in the context of Ad Nauseam, so whatever new cards similar to AG come need to be flexible, cheap to cast, and have value for playing independently outside of a combo or simply stopping Hulk. This is why Counterspell is the go-to method for policing Flash or Demonic Consultation. They stop the wins, but they are also useful against every almost other spell a player can play. AG is a dead draw except if you're holding Ad Naus, someone is about to win, or you are about to lose.
February 18, 2020 2:34 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic zzz please don't @ me so aggressively if you are a scrub.
Recurring Nightmare is a repeat value engine in a format that is almost entirely combo oriented at the competitive side of things. Notably, it requires a creature card in two zones to function. So when you're busy putting 1 creature on the field, 1 in the yard, and then paying 3 for Nightmare, anyone with a brain is just going to send Protean Hulk to the GY and Reanimate + sac/destroy it for a much faster and powerful combo. The card is slow and requires creatures on field and in GY to make it go. It probably wouldn't even make a splash in competitive EDH if it were unbanned, not even as reanimate effect #6 in a reanimate deck.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds allows for more explosive mana production much faster, and you can use that explosive mana to get access to more cards by playing creature spells. It also serves as an outlet to draw your deck with infinite mana with Temur Sabertooth. Consider if you get a Selvala versus a Rofellos onto the field turn 3. Rofellos is AT MOST making 3 mana (maybe 4 or 5 if you had a fat land tutor or something). With powerful options like Phyrexian Dreadnought available for the Selvala pilot, you can get much more than 3 with the added benefit of also getting repeat draw triggers. Once again, probably wouldn't make a splash in competitive. Selvala is a MUCH stronger commander, even with Rofellos benefit of 1 cheaper to cast.
Erayo is babyshit easy to play around if you can think your way outside of a box, and actually makes comboing easier. Imagine you're a pilot holding your Oracle + Consult combo. Every single person besides the owner of the Erayo gets their first counterspell handled by the Erayo. Burn a weak cantrip and rip the combo, and if you now don't have to worry about 2 of the other 3 players in your pod stopping you. Burn a weak cantrip then remove the Erayo if you aren't ready to combo. Erayo may gain a spot in some jank esper stax control build, but will not see competitive play in tier 1 decks if unbanned. Any player foolish enough to run Erayo as the commander will not have a competitive viable deck.
If you take the temperature of the competitive community, you will find the PE ban to be poorly received. At to cast, and presumably another to start the engine, you're not very mana efficient for a wincon. It also requires board presence in rocks or dorks which can be disassembled prior to or in response to the PE cast. Finally, you also need an outlet for all that mana, requiring yet ANOTHER card, either on field or in hand to utilize the mana/untaps. PE makes the competitive meta much less boring BECAUSE it allows certain decks to be competitive viable that otherwise can't hack it. Specifically, Hannah Dralnu Sisay and Arcum all move from being practically unplayable to at least fringe decks.
For the cards that I consider boring, notice how being boring isn't the only context used to evaluate the cards. Reread my comment. I pretty thoroughly explain reasoning for each card I would ban based on power level. Me subjectively thinking the combo is boring is an anecdote, not the meat of the argument. I consider all kinds of other cards in the format boring to see, but don't wish for their bans. For example, I find Dramatic Scepter to be another boring choice for winning, but have no wish for the combo to be banned, as the format is more interesting for its inclusion.
You really need to think in context of cards on board and resources available. When you compare the necessary components for Flash Protean Hulk to win and how resource intensive it is on your mana, compared to Paradox Engine, you will see that one of these is significantly stronger than the other. When you require permanents on board to win, and heavier mana investment, your win is going to be slower and easier to stop. When your win revolves around getting 2 cards in hand and spending 2 mana, or getting 2 cards in hand and spending 3 mana (Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation), that is MUCH harder to stop than when you let someone drop 3 mana rocks and their untap outlet then play PE then cast ANOTHER spell. Once you are able to evaluate combos and winning lines with this framework, the quality of your posts and decks is going to rise quickly.
While you claim I have clearly never played against these cards, its much easier to claim you have clearly never played a competitive pod in your life. Rofellos is a blip on the mono green radar and his non-bo with Gaea's Cradle and other non-basics makes him iffy at best, especially compared to Selvala and Marwen. Recurring Nightmare is too slow. Erayo is baby stax that takes time to activate and almost every deck that could possibly want to slot Erayo is going to slot Nether Void instead. Flash Hulk is a big degenerate combo that is hard to interact with, just as I said, and so is Fish Consult. Educate yourself on competitive before you feel the need to speak freely on it.
February 16, 2020 4:35 a.m.
griffstick big thanks mate, without a doubt one of the best contributions I've received from tappedout yet. If you have any other interesting EDH variants I encourage you to post them here or make a thread somewhere.
February 16, 2020 1:28 a.m.
My first question is why no damage doubler effects? Furnace of Rath and similar work extremely well. Even though the opponent gets to decide what order the damage effects happen, you're still getting a big damage boost.
Second, have you considered going down to 33 or 32 lands? Your curve is pretty low and you aren't dumping your hand via artifact rocks or mana rituals. I think you could probably find one or two slots from land drops.
How have the planeswalkers been working out? The 4 CMC Chandra seems fine, but the other two seem expensive for not much effect.
Why are you running colorless creatures? The damage isn't amplified. Reality Smasher is expensive to cast at 5, and is effectively a vanilla 5/5 that keeps up card parity when it is removed. Smuggler's Copter gives card looting but requires creatures to make it work, creatures that could just be attacking and getting the +2 damage anyways. I can also see why you'd keep Phyrexian Revoker but Pithing Needle might outperform it here as its harder to remove and 2 damage a turn is negligible in EDH.
Some of your 3 and 4 CMC creatures you should reconsider for speed and effectiveness purposes. Thunderbreak Regent is a flying creature, but you aren't getting reliable triggers from it, most likely just one. Tectonic Giant offers card advantage and MASSIVE damage with Torbran. Inferno Titan is another powerhouse with Torbran as you can split the damage 3 ways and get 3 damage apiece. Mindsparker seems too niche and is a 3/2 first strike for against decks outside its color hate. Jaya Ballard, Task Mage seems nice but waiting for summoning sickness feels bad and having to pitch cards to it is a no from me. Taurean Mauler is certainly appealing and presents a threat later, but without trample you're losing out and would be better served by Hordeling Outburst for efficiency sake with Torbran. Finally, Dragonmaster Outcast takes way too long to turn on, and requires an upkeep step to do anything, making it prime target for opponents to remove. Its great when it works, but another token producer is going to outpace this. Specifically, Krenko, Mob Boss is going to run away with the game much faster especially if you have any random extra goblins floating around.
Alpine Moon is much more marginal than you think. Sure its shutting down Gaea's Cradle but your two other moon effects should be more than enough. Outpost Siege is a very marginal effect both ways, and I would recommend a cut for Impact Tremors if you are looking for more damage. Tectonic Reformation is -1 card advantage when you cast it, and no matter how many times you cycle it stays at -1 card advantage. It also becomes easier to cut if you go down to 32 or 33 lands. Experimental Frenzy seems useful when you've emptied your hand but seems marginal in the vast majority of circumstances. You aren't really running topdeck manipulation like Sensei's Divining Top or Scroll Rack to smooth this card out, and I sincerely think Thrill of Possibility is going to serve you better by making you have better turn 3's and turn 4's in your games.
February 14, 2020 2:50 p.m.
Wowee do you have any more information on the EDH variant with sheriffs and outlaws?
Also my advice for playing Aggro in 3 or 4 or 5 or any number of people pods is to run effects that splash damage to other players or that slurp the entire board of life at once. I have been brewing and playing Adriana, Captain of the Guard with lots of extra combat step cards in order to try to solve the aggro problem. You keep the melee triggers from previous combats, so the first combat everything gets +3/+3, second combat its +6/+6, so forth. Other combat oriented decks I've seen that are successful use combat almost like a combo payoff. I'm sure most people are aware of
I also recommend looking at cards like the new Tectonic Giant which hit all opponents. Compare to Inferno Titan. The giant is coming out on turn 4 instead of 6. It has 3 power and does 3x3 damage each attack for 12 per attack without combat bonuses. Inferno tit is doing 6+3 for 9 total, although it has firebreathing. Cards with extort like Blind Obedience are another good way to go because they expand well into multiplayer formats. Gaining 4 life and taking 4 away from your opponents collective 160 (if you in a 5 player pod) makes a big difference for 1 mana.
My final pet card mention would be Jaya's Immolating Inferno. This is some straight up efficiency for EDH and my go-to X spell in EDH aggro.
February 14, 2020 2:20 p.m.
For me, I understand EDH like this
Vast majority of casual decks. Emphasis on goofy interactions and having fun. Few tutors, lots of cards are played without thought for efficiency or mana cost. Wacky plays and big flashy spells. Lots of fun!
Decks built with intention to perform well or have strong card inclusions. Much more emphasis on playability of cards i.e. mana cost against effect. You are likely to see tutors here, and you are likely to see infinite combos usually after turn 6 or so as a possibility. Lots of Voltron strategies rest here. Medium amount of fancy lands, efficient removal, and expect a budget in the $200-$800 range. The deck has definitive cards for winning in mind when being built. You should expect to see many of these kinds of decks at EDH night at your LGS. Think of tuner decks that your weird buddy who has been playing for 6 years is very proud of.
Implied gatekeeping due to nature of focusing on efficient wins. The most notable gatekeeping is commanders, there are simply some commanders that are more suited to competitive EDH than others by virtue of their abilities. Primarily, focused almost exclusively on assembling an infinite combo as fast as you can while slowing or stopping other players from assembling an infinite combo. Players aim to accomplish significant board presence by turn 3, and expect other players to threaten game winning combos or board positions on turn 3. Budget is very high or limitless, and decks outside mono color are easily $1000+. Four or five color decks are easily $4000+. The card pool is most similar to Vintage of any format, and card quality must be very high to be considered competitive playable.
How does my deck stack up?
Most likely high powered. Almost all commanders that get tuned up and given some sweet synergy love will hit this spot. You gotta drop some serious dosh or have been playing for quite a while to have the card base for competitive, and the meta is established enough for there to be a knowledge base as well. Do some research, try some proxies, and get your playgroup to proxy up a deck if you can. All 3 power levels are fun and I recommend them all wholeheartedly.
February 14, 2020 2:57 a.m.
Magic is a game with elements outside your control. Your deck is bigger than your starting hand size. This randomness helps balance skill between deck building as well as piloting, and has been noted in a few places. Simply put, even a deck that is only winning 25% of games against a 75% winrate deck still is getting wins when the great deck gets bad hands, or bad draws, and the weaker deck can have their own great starting hands or lucky top decks.
Tutors are seen as one of the ways to reduce variance, and increase skill. If I have 1 card that says "I win when I cast this" and I have 1 Vampiric Tutor, my deck now has 2 cards that lead to winning. If I add Demonic Tutor to the mix, now I have 3 cards that are leading to winning.
Drawing extra cards has a similar effect, but that effect is much more pronounced in a 60 card format with 4x of any specific card. By running cards like Brainstorm or Ponder you gain access to more cards, and get to make meaningful choices about the cards available to you. To put it another way, you're reducing variance in available resources from your total possible resources. Tutors do the same thing. Tutors reduce variance in the game overall, by dramatically increasing the card quality of available cards for a small premium on whichever card you wish to play. A Llanowar Elves that was fetched by a Demonic Tutor cost you to cast, and there were two different points in getting the Elf from the library onto the battlefield where a player could have interacted with you. Big shout out to TypicalTimmy for also understanding this and putting it in a concise way. All tutors do is improve your card quality or give you access to cards. The thing you should be looking at are the combos themselves, and culling the ones that are too hard or too cumbersome to interact with.
Tutors also give information to opponents, especially in EDH where information can be used by more opponents than a 1 on 1 game. Consider the following: Outside of Vampiric Tutor Imperial Seal Demonic Tutor Grim Tutor and Diabolic Intent (and a handful of others), all the other tutors are conditional. Being conditional, the opponents have to know you satisfied the condition for searching. What do these have on common? The word reveal. If someone uses a Worldly Tutor to fetch Protean Hulk, all of their opponents have just received very important information about the options available to the pilot. Any player worth their salt will use this information to hold up counterspells or prioritize playing pieces that shut off Hulk combos, like Cursed Totem
Tutors serve as the missing piece. Sometimes it can be correct to tutor up your combo as fast as you possibly can and cast it. Other times, I expend tutors on finding more mana (I literally used Imperial Seal to find Command Tower three hours ago at my LGS). Sometimes I'll use that tutor to get Dark Confidant early, to help me control other players and stay ahead in cards. Other times I search up protection like Pact of Negation. As it turns out, double tutoring is a BIG TELL for opponents, and anyone who has played this game for a couple years is going to make the intentional choice to hold up mana to stop you. Simply jamming and racing doesn't work in every game, or every deck, even decks designed to do exactly that.
Tutors cost the same mana as Counterspell and all the other 0 or 1 or 2 mana variants that counter spells. You're getting more points during the process of the combo to use that counterspell. Many combos can be stopped by easy includes like Tormod's Crypt or Disenchant or whatever. Many players choose not to slot cards that interact with other players, and this is why tutors are seen to be a problem. If you basically let players Goldfish for 5 turns in a row, they can assemble a win. I don't think players really understand how meaningless inflicting damage to players is when you have to do 120 to win. That is 6x what you do in every other format, and cards are balanced around 20 life, not 120. When you get 30 damage to them by turn 5, they've drawn and tutored cards willy nilly without you busting them apart by killing their creatures, or removing enchantments/artifacts, or forcing them to discard cards or turning off their combos. They can just, combo off.
I firmly believe that tutors are very healthy for the format. If I know my opponent is capable of assembling and executing a combo, it forces me to consider how I'm going to react or respond to them. Opponents who tutor cards are broadcasting their ability to win, and this causes interesting dynamics around the table about expending or saving mana. It causes more dynamic interaction besides simply attacking and blocking. I don't know about you, but games of Magic are more fun when players interact with each other and threaten to win and stop other players from winning.
February 14, 2020 2:25 a.m.
How the ban list impacts casual players
- It literally doesn't, casual players may ignore the ban list entirely and slot whatever cards they wish
- This is akin to casual 60 card players ignoring the Modern or Legacy or Standard or Vintage ban list
- The vast majority of casual players who do not own a competitive deck don't even know there is a ban list
- Since the vast majority of EDH players are kitchen table friend groups, they may impose rule 0 on anything they dislike
How the ban list impacts anyone who goes to a sanctioned event (competitive players)
- We are stuck repeatedly watching turboturds assemble and poop out Flash Protean Hulk as if they are a God for using this combo
- We are stuck playing decks that can handle Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation due to how ezpz the combo is to slot, assemble, and use
- Many interesting decks were wrecked by arbitrary Paradox Engine ban for the sake of casual players
What the current ban list does
- Cause casual players to whip out phones and pause mid game to tell their friend who didn't even know a ban list existed that they can't play Primeval Titan
- Cause immense grief for competitive players who are forced to play against TnT flashhulk yet again. For the _ straight week in a row (insert whichever number is accurate for your shop competitive players, mine is 10)
Commander's banlist is driven by a desire to create a fun meta
- I haven't met a single person above the age of 15 who enjoys playing with or against Sushi Hulk
- I bet casual players would have even less fun playing against Sushi Hulk or Layered Najeela Consultation Hulk
- Do people seriously get mad when someone resolves a Primeval Titan? Who doesn't have fun from that card?
How has the ban list gone up to this exact point?
- Sheldon hits the PCP pipe before grabbing a random handful of cards
- Any cards that draw blood on anyone else in the room after being thrown like shuriken receive bans
- What I'm trying to say is there is no logic or reasoning given for bans, it is entirely dependent on the subjective "fun" factor of a single person not affiliated with Wizards or the design process in the slightest.
What do competitive players want?
- Just 3 simple bans for cards that cause immense repeated grief game after game in competitive pods
- These cards see absolutely 0 play in casual decks
- We don't even want the crack smoke weird bans unbanned. We just need Flash + forbidden tutors to go
How likely is it that EDH and cEDH split?
- Depends on if Shaper and Sickrobojoke and Labmaniac_Dummy call for a split. As much as I dislike these brewers they are unfortunately influential in the competitive community because even the competitive community can't brew worth a hoot
- Depends on if the RC and Wizards keep taking big fat dookies on competitive players, week after week, year after year
- There is already basically a split between the groups of players, and as I'm sure any competitive player can attest to, playing a competitive deck in a casual pod causes lots of hurt feelings for players who "aren't playing to win" but get upset when you win.
- Every single competitive player I have ever met also has "casual" EDH decks for playing with the people who get upset if you win before turn 15.
February 13, 2020 7:14 p.m.
Alright, in hypothetical Larryland where I am now in charge of making decisions, here is what I would do
First, establish criteria for the format
Shouldn't be too complicated, as there has already been lots of time spent discussing the format
- Bans should serve to stop certain combos or deckbuilding approaches from swallowing the meta.
- Bans should be justified off of power level for winning, not how fun or unfun the combo or style of deck is to play or play against
- General rules changes about the format should serve to open deckbuilding and allow for more interesting approaches to the meta and winning.
I think a couple rules changes should take place to open deckbuilding and allow more options, and allow cards to work as intended with the commander specific ruleset
- Commanders should hit the graveyard before returning to the command zone. This allows commanders like Child of Alara or other death triggers to actually function as intended while maintaining the command zone. Commanders should have the option of returning to the CZ at will from exile, the graveyard, the library, or a player's hand as an ability that doesn't use the stack, similar to mana abilities.
- Hybrid mana symbols should be perfectly legal as long as the hybrid symbols fulfill a color identity of your commander. For example, Boros Recruit should be legal in a mono-red deck. If a hybrid mana card has a mana symbol in the text box that it outside the color identity, it should still be excluded. For example, if Boros Recruit had a firebreathing ability for in the text box, it would no longer be legal in a mono-white deck.
- Restriction of the command zone to a single card. Partner commanders are still legal, but not legal to run them as partners in the command zone. Having a mix and match color identity and having guaranteed access to two cards at all times over one card is too strong. Bigger color identity means wider pool of cards to pull from, and the partner players are effectively starting with a 9 card hand as opposed to non-partner commanders starting with an 8 card hand.
Bans and Unbans
First, I would unban cards that the RC has banned because they are "unfun" or don't fit the spirit of the format
- Coalition Victory - If you can pull this off and cast the cost, go ahead and win
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This costs 15 mana and channel is banned, this isn't going to break decks at all and most likely will only see play as an Ulamog alternate in Gitrog decks
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant - This can be countered or removed or smart opponents can avoid triggering it. Once it has flipped, it is still removable although somewhat toxic. It definitely gets good mileage in EDH but people can play around this if they have even half a brain, which is what I would expect from competitive.
- Iona, Shield of Emeria - This is only banned now because Painter's Servant was unbanned. Certainly reanimator Iona strategies can cause problems, but hitting a 2 card combo for a soft lock isn't game shattering unless you are on a mono-colored deck, at which point it just becomes one of the things you must worry about. If Back to Basics and Blood Moon are totally fine for shitting on 3-5 color mana bases, I'm 100% fine with Iona for shitting on mono color decks.
- Library of Alexandria - I have no idea why this is banned in the first place. Most competitive decks are so tight on their land base and won't have a slot for this. Also most competitive decks wish to play spells on turn 1 and 2, which makes it harder to get the 7 in hand for the Library draw.
- Panoptic Mirror - If someone can assemble the ultra fragile Mirror + Free turn spell, and then gets an ENTIRE ROTATION of no one destroying it, I'm 100% fine with them taking infinite turns. Also consider that this combo basically costs to start, 5 for cast and 5 for the free turn. This card is banned because casuals absolutely loathe combos. Its unbanning could make Pox decks somewhat viable in competitive, and would be a boon to stax decks as well
- Primeval Titan - This card is a double tutor on ETB or attack, but its a double tutor for lands. If someone really wants to set up Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Inventors' Fair (which fetches Rings of Brighthearth) then more power to them, as it requires either a blink effect or an entire rotation to THEN get the second set of tutors from attacking. Its big value, but honestly no reason for this card to be banned. It costs to cast
- Paradox Engine - the banning of this card made the format worse, as it knocked out tons of viable decks simply because "Too many casuals put down rocks and PE and oops into an infinite". The unbanning of this card opens up the format significantly, and allows weird decks like Hannah, Ship's Navigator or Dralnu, Lich Lord to be viable commanders, although definitely not tier 0 picks.
- Recurring Nightmare - Banned because of griefing almost 100%. Nobody likes being hit by some ETB creature that involves saccing or losing permanents, but it isn't fast enough to warrant a ban. It requires mana, AND a creature on the field, AND a creature in the GY.
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - Selvala is basically a more powerful version of this because of the cantrips and you can play non-basic lands. This would probably become a tier 1 deck by basically copying the Selvala list, but I think the meta would be enriched from adding this as an alternate, similar to how Marwen has added instead of detracted from the meta.
- Sundering Titan - Banned because attacking a player's resources is seen as an unfun way to win. Its expensive to cast and not exactly game shattering when it enters.
- Sway of the Stars - This costs to cast for a weird Timetwister that sets life totals to 7. Sure there is potential for abuse with Suspend cards, but this costs 10 mana. Nobody is going to play this if it gets unbanned.
- Sylvan Primordial - Another board state changer that isn't really going to do as much as it looks when it lands. Sure, -3 permanents on board for opponents and +3 lands is neat, but it costs . Decks would rather win than assemble some blink or recursion loop for this card.
- Upheaval - This is banned almost entirely from a casual and time perspective. It makes games take longer. In competitive though, this card would be used with excess floating mana to THEN rip your combo. Almost definitely wouldn't see competitive play though, and the banning seems silly to me.
- Worldfire - If you can run a wacky suspend deck that abuses this to win, you have my blessing. It also costs to cast so someone will probably just win before you
- Yawgmoth's Bargain - This is a Necropotence that costs with the benefit of no-delay on the draws. If necro is legal, this should be legal.
My biggest reasoning for bans is that some combos are so strong and so hard to interact with that they become the go-to builds for certain color identities. When the optimal way to build 30 different commanders in the same color pairing is Flash Hulk, you have run into a problem.
- Flash - Arguably the worse part of Flash Hulk. Potential for abuse in a post-Hulk world with Academy Rector. This card has the potential for abuse with every single new creature printed. I don't think this card makes the meta more interesting, and I think it pigeonholes deckbuilding into "well why don't you run Flash Hulk, or Flash _". Flash combos are also difficult for other decks to interact with outside of Counterspell, which means when you're building for playing in a competitive meta, you are almost expected to play Blue due to how strong and warping this card is.
- Protean Hulk - Even with a flash banning I still wand this turd of a card gone. Finding hulk, reanimating hulk, and sacrificing hulk isn't interesting. There isn't very much skill there. The decks aren't interesting. There is a combo in practically every color combination for winning immediately after you get a Hulk trigger. It can be viewed as a 6-card into-play tutor, or a 5-card into-play tutor, etc. etc. I don't think the meta is more interesting or better for having this card be legal.
- Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact - More boring and tired combo archetypes. Once again, tutoring for 2 cards and ripping the Consultation + Oracle combo doesn't really require much pilot skill, and it doesn't make decks more interesting to build. These cards are simply too efficient at what they do, and they are hard for non-blue decks to interact with meaningfully. The presence of this combo and Flash Hulk has basically relegated all stax decks to being tier 2 builds, as they have such an impossible time locking down these combos. The banning of these two cards and Flash Hulk would bust the competitive meta wide open. Also, between these cards or the Laboratory Maniac + variants in the combo, these are the cards that are way way way more degenerate than the other part of the combo.
- Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora - These are annoying and burdensome mono-blue staples that slow gameplay, and are auto-includes in practically any deck that includes blue. They function much better than intended due to the multiplayer nature of the format, and deckbuilding is less interesting and diverse because these cards are legal. They can singlehandedly run away with games when you have a single player in the pod who ignores them, and having your combo shut down because someone draw a Force of Will after getting 6 free draws is frustrating and extremely obnoxious. They also prop up extremely mediocre mono blue decks like Urza, Lord High Artificer and Baral, Chief of Compliance. Once again, I don't really think there is any skill in playing or building around this card, and the power level of "auto-include for any deck with blue" stifles deck building. Blue really doesn't need any help being good in EDH, let alone cEDH.
- Nature's Will and Druids' Repository - Targeted bans for Najeela, the other obnoxious tier 0 commander deck in the current meta. I'm not a huge fan of 1 card combos with commanders, because you always have one of the cards available at all stages of the game, and tutoring + playing a single card once again doesn't really speak to high skill or interesting deck building. The banning of these cards will peripherally splash and hit other decks, such as Edric, Spymaster of Trest, but I'm fine with that. Najeela and Edric will still have other options for executing these combos, such as Sword of Feast and Famine or Bear Umbra, but these are more mana intensive or more fragile combos with lower utility outside the combo.
- Tymna the Weaver - I have already advocated for removing partners from the command zone, but this card is so dummy strong as to be included in the 99 of other decks with some frequency. You can get the draws even if Tymna didn't attack (i.e. it just came in). You can get 3 draws a turn for the same mana cost as Phyrexian Arena, except that if done correctly you'll get the draws before you would get the Arena draws. This card is meta warping, this and Najeela are a big part of the reason the meta is so creature heavy right now. Decks either run this card, or they run ways to handle this card because a Tymna sitting on the board for 1-3 rotations gives such a fat advantage the pilot runs away with the game.
- Timetwister - A card that sees play because you save slot efficiency by spamming TT to create a loop of infinitely recasting spells, plus its a wheel effect for 3 mana that shits on decks assembling combos through the GY with cards. I'm totally hunky dory with high efficiency combos, but losing to a timetwister loop is boring, cumbersome, and takes the pilot 30 years to demonstrate and explain the loop to those who haven't seen it. Combined with the ridiculous price of the card, and the ridiculous powerlevel even outside the combo, this card should go. This is also another card that makes fast mana extremely degenerate, as someone going first and sticking Mana Crypt into Sol Ring into Chrome Mox into Timetwister feels extremely bad, and opponents don't even have the benefit of recurring their starting hand from the GY later on.
- Sylvan Library - The green Rhystic Study. Doesn't make decks more interesting. Doesn't make games more interesting. Its just cheap ways to get cards that becomes more ridiculous in the context of a format where you have double the starting life of the format this was printed for. The auto-include nature of this card means decks open up more when this card is removed.
- Lion's Eye Diamond - No, Razakats is not an interesting combo. No, bomberman is not an interesting combo. These are both degenerate and more shoe-horn "oh I need a combo to win" style combos. Bomberman is extremely degenerate as LED can be recovered in the face of targeted GY removal by simply stacking the Salvager trigger on top of the removal if you have extra floating mana, and pretty much the only way to really stop it is a replacement effect like Rest in Peace. Seeing someone play a bomberman combo then dump mana into their outlet from the CZ (whether it be Thrasios, Triton Hero or Breya, Etherium Shaper) isn't interesting, although I will admit it is fast. This card is much lower on my list of requested bans, but it is still there for how annoying Bomberman and razakats are, plus how easy this makes Doomsday piles.
- Hermit Druid - I want this gone for the same reason Consultation and Pact should go. Boring deckbuilding that becomes "UGx deck can run Hermit and Oracle to win", and thus you end up with twenty different UGx decks that look the same. Once you have seen this combo once, there isn't much merit to seeing it again. This card isn't as bad as Consult or Pact in my opinion, and once again it is a much lower priority for banning than those cards, as it requires a haste enabler to make it truly degenerate, or a way to flash it in at EOT before your untap step.
Cards I would avoid banning
As the title reads, things I think aren't a problem but usually draw comments for bans.
- Cheap tutors like Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal - Every single 1 CMC tutor goes to top of deck (besides Gamble and Steelshaper's Gift), which means you're -1 card advantage for casting them. Having the ability to assemble combos or seek a problem solving card doesn't blow the format out of proportion. Having players be able to assemble threats in a timely manner makes the format faster and more interactive. If you see an opponent tutoring, you know to hold up interaction or try to race them. I'm more interested in removing hyper degenerate combos that are hard to interact with or are resilient enough to win through interaction.
- Fast mana like Mana Crypt or Mox Diamond - If fast mana is banned, all decks will require Green for speed purposes from the high amount of turn 1 dorks (read: accelerators) available. Stax would become 100% dead as an archetype with these bans outside of Hatebear builds that include Green.
- Free counterspells like FoW or Pact of Negation - Keeps combo decks in check. Similar to how Force of Will keeps Legacy from being overrun by super speed combos, these cards also keep Commander in check.
February 13, 2020 3:44 p.m.
I got blocked from posting on the Urza list ehehehehehe, but yes I do agree its pretty bad. Hugely inflated egos from all those casual +1's can't handle an honest critique.
February 11, 2020 8:07 p.m.
AlwaysSleepy Alright dog this is getting tiring and trivial to speak with you
"I did not say it was good against Fish."
"General comment about the state of the format, and how it's changed a lot since Oracle. Urza isn't a considerably quick deck, the nature of mono blue limits its options speedwise, and while the card quality blue has is on average, very high, mono blue normally is not as consistently fast as decks with black - though with certain draws it can be."
"Okay so now EDH context. Urza isn't the fastest deck at the table. Especially with Oracle Hulk being the strongest deck now - this puts stress on Urza to hold up interaction consistently as opposed to develop mana for a few turns and attempt to combo."
"With Oracle Hulk being the prime metagame singularity, cards with failure modes in decks being taxed to interact is incorrect."
While you are correct that you aren't explicitly saying the deck is good against fish, do you see how your previous posts would cause a reader to assume that was your position? You talk about the deck in the context of fish hulk and then say "Oh I didn't say it was good against fish hulk". So why talk about it in the context of fish hulk? Or why bring up fish at all? Looks like you're defending the deck as viable against fish hulk. Yeah you can opine on "I'm looking past the list at a NEW urza list" but I'm posting these comments on this specific Urza list. Even a fully tuned Urza list isn't going to be very good in the meta. The color identity is too weak without Black or Green and will get outpaced by any UB or UG deck that has the option of Flash or forbidden tutors.
To address "Oh you can't just win by spinning the wheel". Let me quote you from myself
"About Urza and spinning the wheel, its reusable card draw + play the spell. It doesn't replace your regular card draw, and yes having high counterspell density does cause more bricks from activations."
Read: It doesn't replace your regular card draw. Do you really want me to finesse this point more? Artifacts make mana which lets you spin the wheel more which gives you more artifacts and permanents to spin the wheel more. Is getting 1 random card out of a 80-90 card deck going to win the game for you? No. Is being ignorant of an always available card draw outlet stupid? Yes. Once again, Urza activations make more sense in a deck with more artifacts. I'm not saying jam Urza and spin it with this garbage pile of 99 cards. I'm saying for a MONO BLUE DECK THAT STRUGGLES WITH GAS (ahahahahahahaha how the fuck are the brewers that bad?) having artifacts to spin the wheel gives you more cards.
To respond to your points though
- I don't really care what your intent is. The reality is this list is outdated and people are chomping at the leash to defend it. Even fully updated and fully optimized for February 2020 meta, there is absolutely no reason to run this list. It gets BTFO'd by any consultation or Flash list game after game. Its a bad deck, it is being worshipped by clowns like you and the other posters above. Defending something so mediocre so vehemently speaks to, idol worship?
- I'm saying even as a colorless ritual Workshop has merit. Once again though, advocating for more artifacts with the inclusion of Workshop. You are so intent on looking past the list towards a broader image of what an Urza deck is but you only view recommendations to Urza in the context of the list. It becomes an insane value land when you run more artifacts.
- Speed and timing. 2 cards delivered to pilot on turn 3 and 4 outweigh 3 cards going to opponent on turn 5. It is based upon opportunity cost and resources available. If you have more options sooner, you gain access to better plays and winning lines. I know there are a lot of brainlets on this website, but if you're brewing and talking competitive Magic and can't understand speed and opportunity cost there is simply no reason to delve further into this topic with you. Also thinking of howling mine as 3-for-1'ing yourself is a terrible perspective. If you draw a card, and each opponent draws a card, you are all advancing 1/99 of the way through your deck, which keeps you on parity. You have given a total of 3 cards to your 1 card, but this thinking ignores how your opponents interact with each other in the match. A pod isn't a 3v1 experience. Its a 1v1v1v1. Giving up a rotation of Howling Mine is 1-for-1-for-1-for-1'ing yourself. I have a much easier time giving each opponent 1 card than giving 1 opponent 3 cards. Opponents will interact with each other just the same as they interact with you. Once again though, any pilot with any thought process at all isn't going to just jam this on turn 1 or 2 without Urza available. Breaking parity and getting the draws FIRST makes a huge difference with this card, and allows you to feel more comfortable giving up a rotation of draws.
Either way, I'm bored of rehashing the same points with you and other drones. I want to speak to the people in charge of the list.
February 8, 2020 4:15 p.m.
xEth0sx I ran into a CVT deck tonight that used Lotus Field. Seems like another powerful way to get big mana untaps for comboing. Plays nicely with Winter Orb, but doesn't agree with Back to Basics. It will cause lower starting hand quality due to entering tapped as well as requiring two other lands, but you're going to see better performance with heavier stax build as well as against other stax builds except B2B and Moon effects. In my opinion its certainly worth a consider, and its going to perform better against other midrange or late game decks.
February 7, 2020 12:38 a.m.
I would agree that being able to win at instant speed is superior to being able to win at sorcery speed. Do you think the difference is large enough to make a noticeable power level difference between decks? The largest benefit of being able to win at instant speed is to win in response to someone else's win attempt, or when the blue players fully tap out on someone else's turn. While Kess can't win at instant speed, it can still capitalize on these opportunities with big flashy instant speed draw spells, either to shut a win attempt or set up your own. Specifically, I'm looking at Tainted Pact Demonic Consultation Ad Nauseam and Plunge into Darkness and Intuition, all of which allow blow-out plays against Flash Hulk nerds or allow you to set up for your own combo.
ToffMcSoft I would agree that power levels are rather subjective. If anything, draws and match ups are the biggest indicators of success after you've reached "competitive" level commanders and deck builds in my opinion. The popularity of TnT Flash Hulk and also Layered Najeela were rather annoying before the release of Thassa's Oracle, but the lists definitely gained in strength after its release. Calling them "Tier 0" builds is more thinking of them as decks you WILL play against, or decks you MUST consider when building and slotting your flex spots.
I also agree that the meta has stagnated, but honestly I think the largest problem was the unbanning of Protean Hulk. Flash into Academy Rector into Omniscience certainly saw play, and would see play again if Hulk were banned, but a very large amount of decks exist either to assemble the Flash Hulk or to pitch + reanimate + sac the Hulk. I think it is uninspiring deck building, and once you've seen one Hulk deck you have truly seen them all. Flash is a reasonable ban, but I would prefer the Protean Hulk ban, if not a ban on both cards. Arguably the forbidden tutors should be banned as well, seeing how well they work inside Labman builds and also Food Chain decks. Forbidden tutors are very good, but I also think they create uninspiring deck building situations, it is just so much more efficient to slot them over other combos. Both of these combos being so prevalent in the format has basically relegated Stax builds to tier 2 as well, since they don't really interact very well on the combos and are usually detrimental to the table being able to stop these combos.
February 6, 2020 8:48 p.m.
Something I have seen which hasn't been mentioned is using the new Horizon lands to help shore up weaknesses. We have 6/10 of the color pairings, with entirely enemy color pairings besides Horizon Canopy. This is a pretty low-cost (deckbuilding as well as $$$) way to increase your color availability, and the lands turn into draws later in the game, even in match ups where you don't need the color access the land is still useful. Is it worth the 1 pain everytime? Hard to say without seeing a deck list. I will say though burn has had a glorious time slotting in 2x Sunbaked Canyon and 2x Fiery Islet to the MB, maybe consider Sunbaked Canyon or Nurturing Peatland for
February 5, 2020 9:10 p.m.
seems better informed than me on this issue, and might actually be an attorney. I will state for everybody though, I am not an attorney and the best option when handling anything legal is to seek a consultation with an attorney. My explanation of the American legal system is not as an expert, simply as an American observer for the benefit of any non-American observers reading.
For my own education, as well as the general welfare of anyone who happens to read my post, I would be interested in the legal minutia that was incorrect or misleading in my post. A private or wall message would sate my curiosity if you don't wish to post it in this thread. I see great value in finessing fine details but I also don't wish to burden you with additional tasks on my behalf, so post if you feel inclined.
Deadpoo111 Not pressing charges is wise, but I am curious to know if you have had any further developments or resolution. At this point I'm almost emotionally invested.
February 5, 2020 9:01 p.m.
With the recent addition of everybody's/nobody's favorite fish Thassa's Oracle, the competitive scene has been in a tizzy trying to figure out how to adapt and react. Most brewers have been fixated on adapting two lists to fish, specifically TnT Flash Hulk and Najeela Consultation Hulk, which are arguably tier 0 deck builds and are head and shoulders ahead of other tier 1 competitive decks because of the printing of Oracle. I think most people have missed a third well known commander who benefits massively from the printing.
Kess, Dissident Mage is very promising in this new meta, and I would like to present the argument that Kess is a tier 0 build in par with TnT Fish Hulk and Layered Najeela.
For those unaware of how the combo works, here we go.
- Start with Kess, Dissident Mage in play
- Use Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact, naming Thassa's Oracle. We now exile until we find Oracle
- Play Thassa's Oracle. We let it resolve, and we put the trigger on the stack.
- We hold priority, and use the ability from Kess, Dissident Mage to play a spell from our GY. The spell we pick is either Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact.
- We resolve the forbidden tutor, naming or digging for a card that isn't in our deck, effectively exiling our entire deck.
- We resolve the winning Oracle trigger to win.
DO NOTE: We must have no duplicates of basic lands in our mana base to use Tainted Pact. While competitive pact players may know this, it is worth restating for the purposes of education and discussion in the thread.
If we are holding Oracle + Pact in hand, we don't need Kess to reuse. We can simply Oracle, then in response to ETB use the pact.
- Thassa's Oracle is cheaper to cast by .
- We do not need to run a draw spell with Oracle in order to win, while we do with Labman. This most likely saves us another mana, and it definitely saves us being required to hold another card to cantrip to win.
- The combo is safer to resolve if we face interaction. We resolve Oracle first, the trigger goes on the stack. A trigger is much harder to counter than a spell. Once the trigger is stacked, anything that happens to Oracle we don't really care about, since we can win with 0 devotion assuming 0 cards in library. Previously, a Laboratory Maniac could be removed in response to whatever draw would cause you to win, meaning you would lose instead.
- Fish Consultation allows you to attempt another win if stopped. Lets say we are on Labman + Pact. If our Tainted Pact resolves, but our labman is countered, we are most likely going to lose. While using Oracle + Pact, if our Pact is countered, we still have our library and can attempt another win. Similarly, because we resolve the Oracle first to get the ETB trigger stacked, we aren't in danger of Oracle getting countered and then us using Pact and being left with no library.
- If you have Kess in play, you can execute the entire combo for 4 mana. If you already have both pieces, you can execute the entire combo for 3 mana and ignore graveyard hate.
So how is this any different than Fish Hulk? Simple. Kess, Dissident Mage can turn a single tutor into a winning line. The ability to use Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact allows us to assemble and execute the entire combo from a single tutor, as the component that exiles for us also tutors the second card needed for the combo. This means that Kess + Forbidden Tutor is a winning line, similar to how Najeela has a few different one card combos with the commander for winning. Before the Oracle printing, a Kess deck would also have to stock up on cheap "draw a card" spells to supplement the Consultation strategy. Now that need is gone, and the overall strategy can be executed much faster due to the lower mana cost requirements and also card requirements. This means that you have more ability to simply race other decks if that is the best gameplan. The value nature of Kess allows you to go longer in grindier games or match ups. Most decks are pigeonholed into all-in combo or grindier control, but the speed and resilience of the combo paired with being able to reuse our GY really gives Kess the best of both worlds.
I would also argue that new printings have added resilience and more consistency to the build as well. Spellseeker is another way to find the 1 card wincon. Dark Petition is certainly more fringe but could very well see play, especially in lists that skew Ad Nauseam for Bonus Round. Scheming Symmetry is another new topdeck tutor, and the symmetry can be broken on it by cantripping, then immediately starting the winning line. The deck will continue to benefit from any new usable tutors, removal, or card draw that is printed, and these new prints won't invalidate lines or cause grief when making changes for them.
The final piece of the puzzle is the large amount of flex slots in a Kess deck. If you want an additional combo, you can slot it pretty easy and there are good choices. If you want more hate pieces because you see Fish Hulk every pod, you can grab things like Cursed Totem very easily. Lots of green dorks or creature heavy boards you can get Pyroclasm and friends. Kess is blue, and already slots a good amount of counterspells and interaction. On top of protecting the combo, you can also choose to play a more midrange game and stop win attempts early, and grind value before comboing out later. Alternatively, you can just jam the combo if you have the tutors and mana to make it work. While Flash is easier to cast, Flash Hulk does require two pieces in hand to get the combo rolling, making it easier to see coming and harder to assemble.
Of course, Fish has other applications. Hermit Druid spiked in price for a reason, as did Sacred Guide. A card like Hermit Druid also requires haste enablers to make it go, which lowers your overall card quality and puts the pilot into awkward binds of either jamming the Druid and passing a rotation, or holding Druid in hand and trying to assemble Greaves + Druid or Banditland + Druid. Sacred Guide similarly hurts deckbuilding, mostly by requiring that a color in the identity be completely ignored for the sake of the combo. They are also basically worthless outside of the combo. Tainted Pact is an enabler and a tutor at instant speed, as is Demonic Consultation. You can always use them to fetch Pact of Negation or Force of Will in a pinch, should you have no other options to stop an opponent from winning. While it is unlikely you are going to win after exiling 0-99 cards in order to find whatever you name, you are being improved from "losing" to "most likely losing". The most important part of it is though that the forbidden tutors are actually tutoring while exiling, serving a dual purpose in the deck and improving slot efficiency. This even has a leg up over other Consultation builds, where the forbidden tutors are seen mostly as dead-draws for A + B for winning.
TL;DR Consultation Kess is also arguably a tier 0 build and was a big winner from the Fish printing.
February 5, 2020 6:11 p.m.
NO DECKLISTS in this forum. This forum is for discussion of the Modern format.
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but its gonna be a "no" from me, dog.
February 5, 2020 5:08 p.m.
Gleeock If you are not a teenager, please forgive me. I read this sentence and it sounded as if you were
I'm sortof a physical person by nature, so my reaction would be different than someone who mentions being more cerebral (also a teenager).
I believe I also misread your earlier sentiment of getting friends together as with violent intent. I agree that having bystanders around makes it easier for the aggressor to conform to social pressures. As long as we are all in agreement that jumping the guy isn't the answer, I think we're good.
enpc The American law system has two components, you can press civil or criminal charges. Civil is usually suing people, settling disputes, fighting landlords, etc. Civil suits are usually brought forth by private lawyers or firms and are either aimed at winning money or getting a court order (restraining order, gag order, or other). Criminal cases are usually handled by a District Attorney who works for the state, and decides which cases to pursue based upon available police reports and other information. Many times a police report can act as a "pocket veto" in that a case becomes unreasonably hard to pursue or act upon for a DA without a solid, concrete police report. Given the choice between pursuing a case with a police report with witnesses and evidence and damages, versus pursuing a case lacking all three of those things, the DA is going to spend their time where they can get the most convictions.
An interesting tidbit about the American legal system is that there is no double jeopardy, but this doesn't apply as most Americans believe. You can't be brought to court for the same issue twice, but you can be brought to different courts. For example, in the famous case of OJ Simpson, who was accused of murdering his wife, he was acquitted in the criminal court. However, a civil suit, which uses a different standard of evidence, was brought against and successfully won against OJ for slaughtering his wife and friend (they won millions in the civil case).
So lets say the aggressor in this instance threw a card pack and blinded OP by hitting him in the eye. He could report it to the police, who would file a report, and then pass the information onto the DA, who will most likely prosecute if there are good witnesses or evidence (and of course, being blinded is the damage). OP could also independently seek another attorney during this time to open a civil case against the aggressor, suing for damages incurred from being blind (quality of life, lost wages, hardships performing normal routines, etc.). The cases are independent of each other, and an acquittal in one doesn't necessarily mean acquittal in the other.
As it currently stands, aggressor threw a card pack at OP, and caused distress and short term physical pain. The behavior is more likely to be written off than prosecuted. It would be very hard for an attorney to prove lasting, tangible damage in court, even with a standard of evidence as low as "preponderance of the evidence" (i.e. 50% + a feather to find responsible), because, well, frankly, it doesn't sound like there are any damages. If it were a repeat behavior, you could make the argument of lasting emotional distress or impact, but you would once again have to prove how it has effected the OP in their day to day activities.
February 5, 2020 5:05 p.m.
jeacaveo To specifically answer you, I play weekly in a very competitive meta at my LGS in paper. I play against Consultation Hulk Najeela, Gitfrog, TnT Flash Hulk (now Fish Hulk), Brago Stax, Yisan, Doomsday Breya, and all kinds of other stuff. I am aware of the format, and the meta. I have played Azami and Naru Meha and Baral as mono blue decks, no I don't have lists for them on tappedout. Either way, I don't really care if you gatekeep me from "competitive" as long as you respond to my critiques or link cards. Which you didn't. So much along chump, your comment was worthless too.
AlwaysSleepy This list hasn't been updated for 5 months. You can speak about how the meta has changed with the coming of Oracle and how this deck brilliantly handles it, but that doesn't really mean anything to this list because it hasn't been updated. If it handles Oracle, it is by no intentional omission or addition from the brewers. I know you guys absolutely love to claim these brewers are 10/10 never before seen genius brewers, but ayyy lmao I'm going to need you guys to reel it in. This is what I mean when I talk about idol worship and people being mindless. This list is 5 months old. It wasn't good then. It still isn't good now. Defending this to your last breath is a weird hill to die on mate.
Basalt + Rings being considered unplayable is certainly understandable. Its in across two cards with another to start the combo for total. Grim + Power artifact is a half that at . Neither of the combos have an outlet themselves, and both of them produce colorless mana. I'm not arguing that the rings combo is more efficient, it definitely isn't. I'm arguing that Power Artifact is a 100% dead draw outside the combo and Rings gives better value outside the combo. I've playtested this deck. Numerous times. It runs out of gas frequently and struggles assembling and executing the combo. Rings + Basalt is easier to find, easier to recur, and Rings has much more incidental value and can form loops for winning with other cards already slotted, like Codex Shredder. PA is only getting tutored off two cards, Intuition and Muddle the Mixture. Rings is getting tutored off MANY more cards. Even if the speed is slower, the availability and utility is much higher. From the availability perspective, I think it is a much more valuable include. This deck struggles to assemble a win in a timely manner, so make the pieces more fetchable. Even if you disagree with Basalt + Rings, Grim + PA is definitely a weak combo in that PA is absolutely useless without Grim, and you get 2-for-1'd by artifact removal in response to casting PA. Some of the mana cost is negated with Urza too, but more importantly, you're more likely to have excess mana from other artifacts (if you run more than 17 ahahahaha) which helps to power the combo and sustain uses for value. Yes the value from Rings costs a lot, but wow! Urza makes mana! Maybe, if we combine the mana from other artifacts we're already playing, and then use that to pay for Rings activations, we can get ahead!
My biggest reason for including Rings + Basalt was because this deck is just slow as fuck. I understand it can't race against decks with Black, but honestly this $4000 durdle pile can't race at all. Having your game plan be "Untap, upkeep, draw, and that will be a pass from me" is unbelievably stupid. Compare to a deck like Rashmi or Baral, which can actually accrue value from this style of play. When given space, all this deck does is. . . uh . . . hold up mana for counterspells.
Honestly the biggest problem with Workshop is a bad topdeck late game. P.S. this card also makes more sense with more artifacts. I'm not advocating for adding it in this list without adding other cards.
Howling Mine - Lets look. If Urza is in it draws you a card. If Urza is out it draws you a card. Seems like it still works without Urza.
Speaking about the failure mode though, Static Orb may wreck your game worse than 3 draw triggers. If you have Urza get removed while trying to protect, you're most likely tapped out. Not having the mana to interact with the Flash is going to be worse than giving the Flash player 1 more card. Similarly, other opponents are going to have mana difficulties with either of the Orbs to interact with the Flash Hulk player too. This is pretty well known, and the card is still ran. If you think that a colorless Dark Confidant + Mox Sapphire stapled to it with the failure of symmetry instead of asymmetry isn't worth running, we have nothing more to discuss on the matter.
I agree that Narset's Reversal is an over slotted card and should be used mostly in mono color. I think its popularity is because it serves as a Copy Artifact outlet with Dramatic Reversal, as it does here.
About Urza and spinning the wheel, its reusable card draw + play the spell. It doesn't replace your regular card draw, and yes having high counterspell density does cause more bricks from activations. The rest of your argument for this section talks about the "meta and how you can't be agnostic of it". Yeah dude, once again, this deck hasn't been updated in 5 months. Tell that to the brewers.
BUT PITHING NEEDLE DOESNT SEE PLAY SHAPER TOLD ME SO
Yeah dude, of the 400 cards you see in a pod, you only have control over 100. If your maximum power deck only works against maximum power decks, is it really a maximum power deck? Sure, in theory you shouldn't account for Needle, but
- This game being played in paper with real costs to cards means that the vast majority of players do not have 100% access to the cards they should slot, which means they put another card in that slot
- The vast majority of players are not aware of the competitive meta or lists. Those who are enfranchised with knowledge and access most likely are aware of how Needle performs in other formats and consider it here as well.
- A savvy player who loses to a deck that can be shut off by a single card may slot that card when they expect to see the deck again. The meta evolves as players realize how vulnerable this deck is to a 1 cmc card that literally any deck can slot
- Needle variants see play, and players without large card pools may slot more of the same effect. Players may also slot the needle in place of Totem or Linvala, especially if they are Modern players who already have the Needle but not a Totem.
Imagine someone running Kiki combo being shut off by someone's random Ghostly Prison. Sure, that card shouldn't be run in optimized lists, but not being able to handle permanents on the board speaks to bad building. How this deck fares against Needle effects is the same.
As far as blind followers and me shitting on 'em, look at the replies to my posts mate. We have
- Tepid regurgitation post from a fan restating the primer
- 0 decks 1 post guy calling me a fucktard but saying I might be onto something
- You, saying this deck is golden against Fish when it hasn't been updated since 5 months before Fish hit the scene
- Dominican bro saying I've obviously never played competitive because ??? No reason given
- Still no one can explain why this deck has a 90% match to CVT or why it runs only 5 pieces of removal
Lazy, phoned-in deck from 4 brewers who just couldn't be bothered. If this opinion makes you mad, or makes you need to @ me, its because you're basing it off the merit of the names associated with it instead of the cards listed inside it. You can justify it as handling Fish meta, but the list hasn't been updated. Y'all really drink the Kool-Aid, and you drink it all.
February 4, 2020 8:28 p.m.
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|Avg. deck rating||8.20|
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