|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Iconic Masters (IMA)||Uncommon|
|Commander 2015 (C15)||Uncommon|
|Duel Decks: Elspeth vs. Kiora (DDO)||Uncommon|
Combos Browse all
Return all attacking creatures to their owner's hands.
6 days ago
I've always been reluctant in putting them because on paper they look situational and/or limited to one opponent, prefering card such as Evacuation and Engulf the Shore that get (almost) every creature at any point.
Do you find that including them to preserve your side of the board is worth the "reststrictions"?
1 week ago
And a few others.
3 weeks ago
In EDH, when a player with a blue source and at least mana in other sources open on a field. It is a threat. It is a threat not because of a 7 mana spell, but a 2 mana spell, not a spell that deals damage, counters spell, destroys permanents, tutors, or cheats costs, but a bounce spell.
Cyclonic Rift , C-Rift, the big wave, whatever you call it, people know it as one of the strongest, most backbreaking spells in all of EDH, if not the best card in the format.
I am here to say that is isn't.
Part of my series on why other popular staples aren't good ( Phyrexian Arena , Rampant Growth ), or are simply not good in a specific way ( Rhystic Study ), I am not here to deny the power that a card like Cyclonic Rift has, but simply that it isn't a good enough card to warrant the hate or love that it receives.
Before I go over why it isn't good, I need to go over why at nearly every power level, it is good.
In casual EDH, the 50% or less, the Precons, the jank, lies it's the weakest state.
That is where all removal spells, sweepers, or countermagic is the weakest, especially bounce. If no one has threatening boards, why remove them. You'd rather spend 7 mana on a spell to improve yours most of the time, yet those games go long, the Cyclonic Rift acts as a Fog to save you, Sleep to get in for damage, or real removal if you use it on a player's end step if they have to discard just after.
Almost all cards that show heavy play at higher levels show some play at lower ones, and while the price-tag may limit it for most casual players, it does work.
At the 75% or the middle tiers of EDH, where I think EDH players mostly lie, it where it is the most powerful. IF it destroyed any number of target nonland permanents, it would be weaker, because of three reasons:
75% decks often use permanent-based engines to support their gameplan. Think Beast Whisperer along with a deck full of cheap elves, or Paradox Engine in a deck will a lot of Temple Bell effects and mana rocks.
These decks and their creators often expect opponents to remove threats, so have many threats to remove.
They try to protect against sweepers, the only punishing cards for going so wide, with anti-sweepers, think Heroic Intervention , or Boros Charm , and protect against some single-target removal with effects like Darksteel Plate .
Because of this, and because indestructible and hexproof don't protect against a mass bounce effect, along with Cyclonic Rift being the only mass bounce at instant speed that doesn't affect you at all, and doesn't target, it is truly the best anti-75% sweeper by many standards.
In the competitive setting, while not bad, it is mostly relegated to being a 2 mana Chain of Vapor or a Into the Roil that doesn't draw a card, that can let a combo deck get through stax locks once in a blue moon.
Don't get me wrong, being relegated to a slightly worse Chain of Vapor isn't an insult. Chain of Vapor is possible the best removal in cEDH, as decks like Kess consultation or P-Hulk variants Laboratory Maniac wins, and for 1 blue mana, or two in the case of Cyclonic Rift , you get to bounce their wincon as they draw off an empty deck, so they lose...
That is some powerful stuff.
So why isn't it the best EDH card, an efficient spell in nearly any metagame? 2 options for removal, one that crushes many lists and the other a sleek and useful trick?
Because it isn't hyper-efficient, nor is it unbeatable, nor is it irreplaceable.
To start, many cEDH decks that run it run consistent amounts of countermagic to protect it's possible great effect, and numerous cards could fit the spot. It isn't alone. Blink of an Eye , the second Into the Roil has been used over it in many combo lists that more mana-efficient options and many forget the slot all-together, in favor of a cantrip or other removal spell like Abrade or whatever. It isn't very dominant there, and so is easy to explain why it wouldn't be amazing there.
In casual lists, Cyclonic Rift costs about as much as half of many of the casual decks, or even more than some entire casual decks that I have seen. Bringing money-cards wins there, as would a Consecrated Sphinx that costs less money, and I'd wager would have more powerful an effect. Again, an easy argument, but I believe it works.
The really hard place to argue against Cyclonic Rift on the surface is the middle tiers. The 75% lists. Legitimately, I think it is because in the 75% players don't consistently a highly interactive 'metagame'. They just prefer to be interactive 'ingame'.
This comes down to theory, however, when a deck, for example, an elf list abusing the Llanowar Elves style effects along with untap effects to keep making mana, dumping it into something like Ezuri, Renegade Leader . All of that deck and many others get shut down by Null Rod . While that card may be less powerful than other cards against any random deck, as many players know exactly what decks they face, they can play to those decks.
This means general removal, like Anguished Unmaking may be worse if artifacts and walkers don't see much play, you'd rather Mortify . Or if instant speed doesn't help you much, as a lot of City of Solitude / Dosan the Falling Leaf effects exist in your meta, Vindicate , etc.
This is pretty basic knowledge, however, the point here is that there are many, many replacements for Cyclonic Rift in different metagames, and I want to share the ones, only in mono-blue, that in the 75% are why Cyclonic Rift is overrated.
This isn't to say it isn't the best, but that if many, many replacements cost way less $$$ and are occasionally better, that one card shouldn't be considered the best in every situation.
Aether Gale , sorcery, only hits six things, has to hit your things if you don't have enough targets of only your opponents, targets, etc. Yes, there are reasons this is clearly worse.
Why is it better? Politically, you don't have to hit cards from players you team with. Similarly, if you like the Howling Mine on someone's field, don't bounce it. Someone Banishing Light ed someone else's threat you can't deal with? Don't bounce it.
Also, 18 cents. Compared to ~20 dollars and I think it is a steal for budget lists.
Also, it is 2 mana cheaper, despite not being an occasional Disperse .
Evacuation , the downside is simple, it doesn't hit non-creatures, and bounces your own things.
The upsides are for decks that want their own things bounced. ETB effects like Mulldrifter (You can respond to the sacrifice on evoke if you want!), Archaeomancer (infinite sweepers by returning Evacuation , or just recur another card), Duplicant , Solemn Simulacrum , etc.
It is 5 mana too, still an instant, and is only 2-3 dollars right now.
Other options for this could be AEtherize , Whelming Wave , Inundate , Engulf the Shore , Profaner of the Dead , or Scourge of Fleets if you just want mass creature bounce, each with ups and downs, some that only hit opposing creatures, some that are instants, some with graveyard synergies, etc.
For mass nonland bounce that doesn't target? There are tons of options, plenty with lower mana costs than Cyclonic Rift .
Take Coastal Breach . It does a mass bounce for just 4 mana (with 3 opponents), leaving you enough to rebuild first, and being able to be cast much faster, making up slightly for the sorcery speed.
Or Crush of Tentacles , 6 mana? 5 mana and an 8/8, it needs to be in a deck with enough cheap drops to hit surge to be worth it, but an option.
Devastation Tide is a personal favorite, if you run Aminatou, Brainstorm , a lot of scry, Mystical Tutor , Long-Term Plans , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , or are lucky, it is a 2 mana bounce everything. Really strong, however, sorcery (unless you cast it with Miracle on an opponents turn.
Run really high mana cards? Displacement Wave can be better,
Like a big creature attached? Kederekt Leviathan . It even comboes with flicker effects, or can be repeated for 2 mana with an effect like Animate Dead or 3 mana at instant speed whenever with Necromancy in black/blue.
Only need to target one player for political reasons? River's Rebuke .
A lot of one color in the meta? Wash Out
Artifacts/Enchantments? Reduce to Dreams
Even outside of bounce effects, Ixidron can do work xD
Point is, there are options. Even outside of blue, sweepers that can get around the normal protection is seriously strong. Terminus , Hallowed Burial , along with most mass exile effects in white from Play of the Game to Final Judgement / Descend upon the Sinful to the new Urza's Ruinous Blast , etc. Mercilous Eviction in W/B, the -x/-x effects in black like Toxic Deluge or Black Sun's Zenith , etc. in any color, Perilous Vault exists.
These are half of why I think Cyclonic Rift is overrated. Not because it isn't great at what it does, but that it isn't that much better than the rest.
The other half is simple.
Every color (sorry colorless) has answers to Cyclonic Rift off the top of my head.
Black? Many lists abuse cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or other discard to remove powerful cards from opposing decks.
Green? Ugh... Yeah, I guess some colors don't have answers...
(Gutteral Response if they ever make hybrid legal in mono-colored xD)
That's all. Thoughts?
3 weeks ago
The answers to your questions vary more based on your deck than they do based on your meta.
If you are playing a control deck, 8ish counterspells is usually sufficient (providing you've got plenty of card draw to make sure they show it). I usually go for some selection of Disdainful Stroke , Arcane Denial , Counterspell , Negate , Essence Scatter , Dissolve , Sinister Sabotage , Swan Song , Commit / Memory and if you can afford them Pact of Negation , Mystic Confluence , Cryptic Command and Mana Drain . Important to remember that Cryptic is not as good in commander as it is in 60-card formats, and Force of Will is mediocre at best. If you are NOT playing control, don't play counters.
Board wipes, if you are playing a heavy creature based aggressive deck, should be zero. If you are playing control, three-four. If you're playing superfriends, 8-9. At least two of Wrath of God , Day of Judgment , Supreme Verdict and Damnation should always be the first ones you put in, followed by Merciless Eviction , Blasphemous Act , and Austere Command then some selection of Cyclonic Rift , Evacuation , AEtherize , Settle the Wreckage , Fumigate , Kaya's Wrath , Chain Reaction , Akroma's Vengeance , Terminus , In Garruk's Wake , Necromantic Selection , All Is Dust and Kindred Dominance . Prioritize your picks to 1) be cheap so you aren't restricted from casting them and 2) be flexible - Merciless Eviction and Austere Command should be high pirority picks, and things that bounce/tuck/sacrifice are good for indestructibility.
As for spot removal... play little to none. Unless your deck focuses on it, it's fairly weak. I'd run things like Hero's Downfall / Vraska's Contempt / Beast Within / Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile because they are cheap, flexible, and can deal with hard-to-answer permanents, but I wouldn't typically run more than two-three in a deck. The exception, of course, is right here: Shameless self promotion.
Remember that you're playing in multiplayer pods. If you spend one card to answer an opponent's one card, you're down by the two cards your other two opponents didn't have to spend. That makes both spot removal and counterspells much worse than usual. Board wipes are by far preferable to both options.
3 weeks ago
I would consider a few of the stronger mill payloads, such as Mind Grind , Fraying Sanity , and Sphinx's Tutelage . A fun combo is Duskmantle Guildmage and Mindcrank for infinite mill and damage. You are also fairly low on removal, and a slow mill deck wants a lot of that. There are the more expensive options like Damnation or Cyclonic Rift , but you seem like you want to stick to a low budget so I would recommend AEtherize or Languish . Phenax, God of Deception is very popular as a mill commander, but is still good in the 99 if you want to stick with Mirko. Counterspells are also very powerful in a deck like this, since you don't care about you're opponents board state much, and Counterspell , Commit / Memory , Foil , Spell Swindle , and Memory Lapse are very good for that role and are pretty cheap to pick up. Grindstone is pretty expensive, but can kill a mono-color deck very quickly if your play group has a lot of that.
3 weeks ago
another card to consider is Sleep over AEtherize ... again it kinda depends on the matchup tho... going against Aggro/Tokens AEtherize is tough to beat but against those hiding behind walls/blockers Sleep can turn into pretty much 2 free Alpha strikes which is kinda like the blue version of Overrun /you win GG.
anytime and good luck happy brewing!
2 months ago
thom-le I will go take a look at your deck and let you know how the button works.
I'm so glad to hear that you have tested my deck out. I think it runs very well and I appreciate the suggestions to enhance some of the cards already in the deck. I think AEtherize and Flood of Recollection are great cards and I have thought about adding them in the past. I'm to that point where it is hard to cut cards. But I will say that the one card I was thinking about cutting was Land Equilibrium. Not that it doesn't help but its tough to spend turn 4 casting that card. It really does "get" the ramp decks which is great but it can also be a card that just does nothing.
Settle the Wreckage is also great, but I hate ramping my opponents. Having Land Equilibrium out would be necessary for me to want to cast that. I think there is enough bounce in the deck that it isn't necessary but that might just be my meta. It is still a great card and would make sense to play over other cards if you own it.
Balance effects draws so much hate in my area that I stay away from those cards but they do work with this deck seeing as how you are usually not ramping at all.
2 months ago
A blink deck that makes infinite mana and storm and then can grapeshot to death, for $9,49
2x AEtherize 3x Archaeomancer 3x Compulsive Research 2x Dispel 3x Ghostly Flicker 2x Goblin Instigator 3x Grapeshot 3x Into the Roil 16x Island 8x Mountain 2x Negate 4x Peregrine Drake 4x Sea Gate Oracle 3x Whirlpool Rider 2x Willbender
AEtherize occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.04%