|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2013 (C13)||Rare|
|Urza's Legacy (ULG)||Rare|
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No more than two creatures can attack you each combat.
1 day ago
The concept is definitely interesting.
When it come to defending yourself, how does it fare against token decks that do not mind having some of their creatures sacrificed or turned into 1/1 ? I see Crawlspace , but I think some extra deterrent such as Propaganda could help. Also, if the board goes out of control, I'm not saying anything original but I believe that Cyclonic Rift could be extremely useful for you.
As far as attacking goes, is your plan basically copy Banefire or Red Sun's Zenith over and over to kill off your opponents in one big go? I have may have understood your decky incorrecly, but it seems that there are lot of spells aimed at controlling the board by dealing with creatures but not many that can actually seriously and consistently damage the other players.
1 week ago
I would suggest a card like Rites of Flourishing for speed, Privileged Position to protect your creatures because your low cost cards that involve any kind of ramp and your big cards are at risk of target because they are such a threat, Crawlspace is always handy, Defense of the Heart is a good way to cheat in creatures. Lurking Predators since you have so many creatures but don't use many of these, Shapers' Sanctuary ramp since your cards are a target, Heroic Intervention is a good catch all, Dolmen Gate if you swing a ton, Vizier of the Menagerie to almost have a constant card to play and see ahead. Don't use all but these are some suggestions for your deck.
2 weeks ago
I was intrigued and looked for your list, but I didn't see it on TappedOut. We should compare, at the very least!
In any case, sorry it took so long to write this response. I wanted to try and break down what I think are your main points, and, well, I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but here's what I got out of your comment:
The way I read it, it looks like you're saying the deck needs to be slower. This reading is a little unfair on my part, possibly a little too overly hostile, but, I mean, I can't fathom a turn-six kill when I play a card like Peregrination on turn four. Like, that's just not going to happen. And if you're arguing that the deck becomes more able to grind, well, I have two problems with that:
First, I guess I don't know your meta entirely, but do non-optomized tables not just gun for Sasaya immediately? Like, even just reading what she does kind of sets off some alarm bells, doesn't it? I know everytime I play with somebody new, whenever I get to the "So if I have six Forests out, they all tap for six green" bit, the inevitable response is something akin to "Oh, that's not good." And then if the combo does work, all the more incentive to get targeted next game, or next week, or whenever I play the deck again. That's why I aim for speed above everything else, because if I don't, well, I just get run over.
Second, the methods you suggest of becoming more resilient don't really work? Like, yeah, Howling Mine has its uses, but I'd really rather not give my opponents more cards to beat me with, because I'm still the target. It's also why I'm skeptical of Oath of Druids . It's not that I probably won't get free stuff, it's that other people get free stuff first, and when Sasaya's on top of the hill -- a position the deck's going to be in until it's dead -- all that free stuff is headed right at me. I figure you disagree with me about this -- I mean, you did talk about how people want to deal with other people's threats -- but that really hasn't been my experience.
Incidentally, these are the reasons I cut utility lands as well. They do have a use. Of course they have a use. But that use is kind of marginal when just playing them makes the deck slower. If they were named "Forest" or "Snow-Covered Forest", we might be talking, but they're not. The only instance I can imagine where that wouldn't be the case is hitting one off of Oracle of Mul Daya , and that seems kind of marginal at best. I've mentioned this before, but sometimes I'm not even sure Scrying Sheets belongs in this deck.
But, speaking of Utility lands, let's talk Reliquary Tower . Or, I guess more specifically, "no max hand size" effects and why I think they're bad/overrated:
So the consensus as far as I understand it in "real EDH" (read: non-Sasaya) circles is that these cards (Reliquary Tower specifically, though I imagine Spellbook and Library of Leng have similar reasoning (at least Thought Vessel is a mana rock)) are kind of win-more. Like, there is definitely the feel-bad psychological effect of casting a big Blue Sun's Zenith , not finding an outlet for all those cards, and having to discard all the way back down to seven, effectively wasting all that mana, but if you think about it, at the end of the day you're still keeping seven really good cards. So that plus the fact that the graveyard is much more of a resource in EDH than almost anywhere else, and the "no max hand size" effect starts to lose its luster.
But let's talk about Sasaya specifically. As you mentioned, seven lands is a lot of hand space. Under normal circumstances, that means you'll only really have room for one payoff spell, so it better be a good one (put a pin in this idea, we'll come back to it in a bit). But there are alternatives. Last paragraph, I talked about the feel-bad of not getting to keep that big hand, but remember how that big hand happened in the first place: a Blue Sun's Zenith. More specific to my point: an instant.
Continuing this thought experiment a little further, let's ask why a player might cast a 7+ card draw spell in the first place. One might imagine that a player casts such a draw spell hoping for an effect that removes their hand limit, but that's not the only possibility. They could also be looking for a specific combo -- a way to end the game. Compare that to Sasaya's instant-speed land searchers (a special shout-out to Yavimaya Elder !). In Sasaya's case, the payoff effect we're looking for is already in the Command Zone.
In my opinion, therefore, the deck doesn't need its hand limit removed because there are enough effects that ignore that limitation, and cards like Expedition Map that can find these cards aren't actually that good.
But the "why" for that specific claim is a different topic entirely. Let's talk about it!
In your post, you mentioned that cards like Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , and Peregrination were all "ideal ramp spells" for a Sasaya player, as they also added a land to the hand, therefore ending up card-positive. Now, I already dismissed Peregrination out of hand for being too slow, but it's important to include it here as well because I feel it has the same other trappings that might encourage a Sasaya player to play these cards. In short, I posit that these cards are, in fact, card-neutral at best.
This applies to Renegade Map et al. as well, but I'm just going to focus on the sorceries just for simplicity's sake. Let's examine a typical goldfish turn. First, the draw step. Obviously, they're at plus one card. Then, the goldfish plays a land, removing a card, then playing a non-land, which is minus another. If that non-land is a Cultivate effect, that only adds one card back, which leaves the goldfish more or less where they started. Because ramp becomes negligible once Sasaya flips (while there is certainly a difference between, say, eightteen starting mana and twenty-eight, I find it's not enough to worry about, and the difference between twenty-eight and forty is even less), that means the goldfish is spending three mana on nothing much at all (as a sidenote, you might notice Nissa's Pilgrimage and Evolution Charm in the deck, which seem to contradict this point. However, both of these cards have occasional upside potential. It doesn't always happen (and, in Pilgrimage's case, certainly never on Turn 3), but circumstances for it do exist, so they keep their slots).
The solution some Sasaya players offer is to stop making land drops, but that seems so tempo-negative to me. I feel that, if I do continue making land-drops, eventually I'll be able to cast these giant threats without the help of Sasaya, and could easily win the game that way.
Lastly, before I get into specific cards, I wanted to talk about the ramp spells I do play. Namely Azusa, Lost but Seeking and similar effects. I already mentioned the speed aspect of my build, and these cards are a part of that. To be more specific, these cards are in the deck to turn cards like Chord of Calling and Citanul Flute into more ramp if necessary, which, when you're going for a Sasaya flip and a kill in the same turn, is worth having in the toolbox. But these cards also function as pseudo-alternate win-conditions. As I alluded to just a paragraph above, the only difference between tapping ten lands for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and tapping one or two is how smug the caster gets to feel. But the caster still gets an eldrazi in either method, so I don't think the difference in smugness is very big.
So now we come back to that pin I made earlier. Let's talk card specifics. Now, I've tried to go through a lot of these already, sifting through to get at your main points, but there are some notable stragglers, so let's take a look:
Summer Bloom : I've tried it. The problem is, because it's a one-shot effect, it's way too dead pre-flip. Azusa and her kin are both tutorable and stick around, so they're just better.
Skyship Weatherlight : This and Book of Rass are my two favorite suggestions, and I definitely want to try playing around with them on paper instead of just theorycrafting. If there's anything you take from this too-long screed, I want to thank you for bringing these cards to my attention.
Goblin Cannon : This was suggested before and I didn't really dismiss it off-hand, though I did ask "What do I cut?" I didn't have a good answer, then, though maybe it's -1 Akroma's Memorial , Hydra Broodmaster , and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa for +1 Goblin Cannon , Book of Rass , and Skyship Weatherlight ? I'm still hesitant because Kamahl at least is fine pre-flip (Broodmaster is bad yes, but not terrible. At least, I think there's a difference there), not to mention in my meta, effects like Crawlspace and Ensnaring Bridge are less popular than Leyline of Sanctity or even Aegis of the Gods . I guess there I'll have to test and see. You're right, by the way, about Akroma's Memorial being pretty dead 99% of the time, but it's the best haste outlet, and specific kill's been good enough for me.
If I didn't mention a card here, it's because it obviously is different from either my strategy as I've listed in various places, or is implicitly against the deckbuilding philosophy of my particular list. Or maybe I missed it, and you can bring it up if/when you respond.
In any case, thanks for the comment, and keep fighting the mono-green combo fight!
2 weeks ago
A deck that results in a similar concept without outright copying TLG is Teysa, Orzhov Scion . Although you lose the blue control aspect, you do gain in removal and speed based on average CMC, and your primary win condition combo piece only costs , so timing when to play Darkest Hour is fairly easy based on board state and available mana from your opponents. You can also build toward your meta in a more pillow-fort type concept, adding things like Ghostly Prison , Sphere of Safety and Crawlspace to hose the token aggro aspect of TLG.
Here's my list for reference - check it out and see if this might fit what you're looking for to play with the same game plan but in a totally different flavor to TLG. Happy brewing.
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 18 | 3 COMMENTS | 2518 VIEWS | IN 10 FOLDERS
2 weeks ago
I'm going to post several posts, each with a different topic. This way I don't get halfway through and it glitches, or I run out of time and can't finish.
First post is about dealing with tokens. Here are some options for dealing with go wide strategies (decks that swarm opponents with large amounts of creatures).
There are different ways to battle these types of decks. I am including only cards available in these colors:
- stops you from getting attacked by their army of tokens.
Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb - gets rid off-the-wall tokens.
Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods gets rids of tokens while they are small.
Mizzium Mortars - overloaded kills them when 4 toughness or smaller.
Insurrection - use their army against them.
Basilisk Collar let's you out live the armies.
Steel Hellkite - let's you pay 0 to get rid of tokens if it deals combat damage.
Balefire Dragon - gets rid of most creatures if he gets combat damage in.
Harbinger of the Hunt - repeatable token hoser. If you equip the collar it wipes all non fliers.
Siege Dragon - also fun with the collar.
Subterranean Tremors - good for token sweeper.
2 weeks ago
thom-le, Great suggestions... going to pickup them up and give them a go. Temporal Adept is a upgrade over Time Elemental for sure. I noticed you run Silent Arbiter in your KILL AND RUN deck. I've had someone suggest Crawlspace as another option for a similar effect. You could use Silas Renn, Seeker Adept to keep bringing the effect back.
3 weeks ago
xaarvaxus Thanks for the suggestions. The Aphetto Alchemist goes for infinite untaps with the Illusionist's Bracers , but now that I think about it, hoping to draw this without having any tutors does seem meek. I think I will run a Blind Obedience instead of a Authority of the Consuls . The Trepanation Blade works so well in my Skullbriar, the Walking Grave Voltron deck, mainly to boost his power. I thought about adding it here, but you're right I don't really plan on attacking all that much. I have considered adding a Crawlspace instead just so I could Pillow-Fort a little better.
Araignee I am changing the Insight for the Revelation. Also, I corrected the Talisman. Thank you for your suggestions. I have tweaked the build a little more based on these suggestions so far.
3 weeks ago
Marchesa's Decree Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Skyline Despot Windborn Muse Baird, Steward of Argive Knights of the Black Rose Ankle Shanker Brutal Hordechief Adriana, Captain of the Guard Comeuppance Crawlspace A few extra pillow fort cards, some to help get you monarchy and benefit you while you are the monarch, and some to help your tokens become more powerful.
Crawlspace occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.03%