|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|2011 Core Set (M11)||Rare|
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At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.
Dark Tutelage Discussion
3 weeks ago
Dmany this is wrong, it takes 4 turn cycles, not 2, you'd get half those cards off of the one per turn either way, a point my whole argument was based on, yet you seemed to miss. It is a falacy that Arena is twice the card draw you'd normally get, it is the exact same, only after it is dropped. This draw 4 cards in 2 turns isn't the same as seeing 4 cards off of one card in one turn with no delay, and then 6 in 2 turns, if you are counting draws.
griffstick I was never solely talking cEDH, where Greed is trash, Arena is trash, and so are most of the cards I mentioned, like Read the Bones , etc. 2 mana card draw like Night's Whisper is weak, and Ad Nauseam rules all. Claiming my argument is on another power level is really weird for an argument against it, when it clearly isn't.
Now onto the notion that 7 mana splashy plays are the casual EDH game. Cool. Someone doesn't burn through their hand fast, like many midrange or control lists, but does it just fast enough to want to run card draw at all. Given these, Phyrexian Arena fails miserably. It isn't a splashy play at all, think about Read the Bones or Ad Nauseam , those DO something, not grind out at a snail's pace, that isn't splashy, and is less than half of a 7 mana play.
Oh, but it helps them hit land drops. Assuming mono-black, Necropotence is better with all of that. It is splashier, it is going to fill the hand perfectly if you need, and hits lands. It is 10x better than Necropotence . Assuming cards over 3 mana are an issue with the land drop thing, yet by the fact you think low mana curves aren't a casual thing despite the Savannah Lions and other aggro deck's cards at casual tables always exist, 3 is the sweet spot. Assuming the deck has a weak landbase, as casual decks often do, so Arena or Necropotence may be hard, Dark Tutelage is better. It is cheaper, more fun with the reveals and sometimes winning the life loss by hitting a land, or making a memorable flip on an Emrakul, the Promised End, etc. it can be much more fun. It also costs less than a 15th of the cost of Arena, better for Casual players. It is easier on the landbase, etc. etc. etc.
I have yet to see a well-made deck (casual, budget, competitive, etc.) that really, honestly wants Arena in any slot other than a secondary, worse copy of another card.
CrimsonKing Really, what is great about it? An overpriced piece of cardboard that isn't all that good in any situation I have seen isn't... great IMO.
3 weeks ago
Okay, clickbaity title, but yes, I firmly believe that Phryexian Arena, EDH verified staple, is a piece of cardboard worth nearly nothing to most decks that use it, and the sleek Night's Whisper or more versatile Sign in Blood is better in aggressively costed combo lists and storm decks, Read the Bones is better in midrange, and even in control, a larger draw spell that is an instant, think Ad Nauseam is just so much better.
Even aggro decks woul rather a proactive possible threat that pressures life totals over time, like Dark Confidant or Mindblade Render , and the arena isn't powerful enough in nearly any of these decks to warrant the inclusion.
Now onto why these are all so much better, and why poeople like the Arena, but it is still bad. It is that Phyrexian Arena looks like a draw 2 per turn, however it is a possible only draw 1. You draw 2, but 1 you'd already get. It also, if removed on an opponent's turn, doesn't draw you anything, leading to card disadvantage. It takes 1 whole turn cycle just to be a cycler that loses a life and costs 3, and 2 turn cycles (8 turns) before it is as good as Night's Whisper , but costs more, and at turn cycle 3 (12 turns in) it gets the powerful effect of the 3 mana draw 3, lose 3 life, on a 3 turn suspend. Impressively bad for an effect like that. Read the Bones is more splashable, doesn't suspend, looks at possibly more cards, and loses 1 less life. Dark Confidant / Mindblade Render costs less and have a creature attached and do about the same things, with more use in creature-abusing decks, perhaps being sacrificed later to a Attrition for more advantage need be, who knows.
At turn cycle 4 (16 turns in), it gets the 4 mana draw 4 suspend 4, lose 4, which doesn't draw as much as a Moonlight Bargain , you need to be on turn cycle 5 (20 turns in) for that luxury, and with Ad Nauseam , you'd often draw 20 more cards in the single turn. See how that it bad? Especially in a color combination with many better, still generally bad card enginess that do basically the same thing. Dark Tutelage is more splashable, Greed draws more, Necropotence draws more, Mindblade Render is cheaper, more splashable, with more synergies, Dark Confident does basically the same as the Render, etc. etc.
It is often compared to the black Sylvan Library , but that is cheaper and actually draws 2 cards, twice the work of the Arena. It isn't even in the same ball park of card advantage as the library.
This was all off of the top of my head, yet, Phyrexian Arena is considered a staple, almost exclusively played in EDH, and is just not a good card despite that. Theater of Horros, a new red added variant to the Arena, at least when you have infinite mana wins the game, and has synergies with effects like discard.
The only real time I have seen some use to the Arena is in stax decks that use a lot of the other options too. Mono-Black Stax often resorts to a lot of mass discard, think Oppression , Bottomless Pit , Necrogen Mists , etc. to empty everyone's hand turn after turn. Using Arena, Tutelage, Confidant, Render, Necro, and Greed all allow the stax deck to fish through it's deck and break parity on these stax lists, even if it takes 10 turns to make them worth it.
Thoughts? Am I just not seeing it properly, or is it truely bad?
4 weeks ago
Hey, so it looks like you have stuffed the deck with ways to tap down your commander, but you're only untapping during your untap step for the most part, you should look into more untap affects. You have Saddlebags, which works, but I would look to add a few more; Staff of Domination , Umbral Mantle , Thornbite Staff , Thousand-Year Elixir , Paradox Engine , also there's Maze of Ith and Thaumatic Compass Flip. Additionally, if you're going to be tapping and untapping creatures, creatures like Avatar of Woe and Visara the Dreadful , to get more value out of those untap affects. Also, take a look at some of the Crew costs. You are low on creatures, high on Vehicles. You'll always have access to King Macar, the Gold-Cursed , but there's no guarantee you'll have creatures with Power > 2 on the battlefield on in your hand so; Aradara Express , Ballista Charger , Bomat Bazaar Barge , Conqueror's Galleon Flip, Consulate Dreadnought , Demolition Stomper , Fell Flagship , Heart of Kiran , Irontread Crusher , Skysovereign, Consul Flagship , and Weatherlight , all are likely dead cards on the battlefield, unable to be crewed. Also, Magus of the Coffers will be high value as well, generating mass amounts of mana while also being able to untapped by untappers. You also might want to look into adding some more card draw, you have Greed , but perhaps Bloodgift Demon , Pain Seer , and Dark Tutelage are solid options. I know some of my suggestions are expensive, but I'm just trying to help optimize, and efficient untappers are going to be expensive because they're rarer.
1 month ago
Really like the whole new Rakdos theme they doing over here. A card that I immediately thought of that could help is Blasphemous Act as well as Carnival of Souls both cards are on point with theme and can possibly help.
For card draw and recursion. Here might be some cards that can be considered but aren't on theme:
- Phyrexian Arena
- Dark Tutelage
- Dark Prophecy
- Grim Haruspex
- Twilight Prophet
- Animate Dead
- Dance of the Dead
- Dawn of the Dead
Hope that helps and +1 for that great intro!
2 months ago
CyborgAeon Glad you like the deck! Bob is not a bad choice at all for the reasons you mentioned. I also believe that the only thing that shuts him down is Humility too which is nice because he's not all too affected by our other hate cards.
One issue I find with the inclusion is that our creature count is low as it is, and our primary means of defending our walkers is Ensnaring Bridge which doesn't make card advantage feel very desirable if we don't have outs to empty our hand right away. We have found through testing that the deck operates well with minimal cards in hand, and through Aminatou's card filtering ability coupled with durdling through a Stasis lock, we tend to manage better than other commanders at the table. Dark Tutelage is certainly a card worth considering since it avoids our hate, but I feel like I would rather run Phyrexian Arena instead. Even then though, we still prefer cards that don't force draws, which makes our Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora highly desirable with text that says "you may draw a card".
Hope that clears some things up! We will definitely keep in mind your suggestions while we work on our revisions soon to come. Cheers!
2 months ago
My local game stores big matchup this past Monday was my Kaalia vs Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder Storm.
Game 2: He came heavy with control using Noxious Revival to return Force of Will for additional counter. I ensured each bait card would devastate his field to remove the counter spells and tie up his mana to slow me down. Drop Kaalia, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, and Archfiend of Despair for the win.
Game 3: Turn 1 he dropped Sylvan Library and preceded to make gains with card advantage. I got greedy and blew the field with Armageddon and Enlightened Tutor for Crucible of Worlds. This failed to slow him down and he got the win.
Game 4: The final game was a challenge. Dropping Sol Ring and Dark Tutelage for advantage didn’t work as he was working hard now for control. My only option left was to take out Yidris with Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. I managed to tutor Moat and get it into play just in time to stop Yidris hitting the field for the last time. He cast Cyclonic Rift overload, swung, and whiffed the cascade. I managed to secure Moat once again and proceeded to advance my field. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt were my key players here helping me rebounded from the CycRift and take the game the next turn with lethal damage.
2 months ago
Thanks for the suggestion Scion_of_Darkness, that is an amazing card! This deck should win by turn 4 or 5, but if not Marrow-Gnawer will double the number of rats you control to ensure victory. I am going with 1 instead of 2 because this deck is budget and that card is pricey. As for rewsifer, I think 20 swamps is as low as I will go for this deck. Throne of the God-Pharaoh might help, but I don't find it necessary. I will add it to the maybeboard in case anyone prefers it over another card in this deck. I believe Dark Tutelage is a better card than Sign in Blood for card draw, but thanks for showing me the flaws in Minions' Murmurs! :)
3 months ago
Here are some cards for the budget, since you are trying to cut down on some cards and add in more interaction.
Hope that helps!
Dark Tutelage occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.0%