|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Magic Origins (ORI)||Rare|
|Duel Decks: Knights vs. Dragons (DDG)||Rare|
|Shards of Alara (ALA)||Rare|
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Knight of the White Orchid
Creature — Human Knight
When Knight of the White Orchid enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for a Plains card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
Knight of the White Orchid Discussion
2 weeks ago
Knight of the White Orchid is neat.
There is a vampires theme option for this kind of list- Bloodcrazed Paladin , Forerunner of the Legion , Legion Lieutenant , Olivia, Mobilized for War , Paladin of Atonement etc. This is neat in that it lets you run a lot of lord effects, even if there is a little awkwardness in the non-vampire slots.
2 weeks ago
Tzefick: I read through the original post, but I want to circle back to it later. And you will have to excuse the order in general, I was responding to this across the course of a day.
On artifact removal
There are a few points to unpack here. The first, and most importantly, is that removal is a big part of Magic, the Gathering and honestly, is what makes games (and deckbuilding) interesting. IF MtG was just about amassing board states and then slamming big creatures into other big creatures, the game would be much more boring (not to mention take much longer). But your argument here basically boils down to "artifacts are bad because they die to removal". I get that there are a bunch of good artifact removal cards, but that doesn't mean that we should stop leaning into artifacts because of it.
As for dealing with removal (especially mass removal) - there are still many options that white already has access to which does actually allow them to ramp. Wayfarer's Bauble , Burnished Hart , Solemn Simulacrum , Kor Cartographer , Knight of the White Orchid are all perfectly valid land ramp cards. Sure, the average CMC of these spells is higher than their green counterparts, however green is THE ramp colour, so it would be expecteded that there would be hihger costs/more contitions to be met for other colours to do a similar thing. And that's without even touching on cards like Sword of the Animist or Explorer's Scope which are both equipment and what white excels at.
In addition to this, while not ramping, white already has access to cards like Weathered Wayfarer , Land Tax , and Tithe which allow you to consistently hit your lands. While not as good as outright ramping, if you're hitting your lands each turn, you're genereally not doing too badly. And when combined with other ramp effects, by mid to late game you still end up with as much mana as most players.
Now onto the artifacts. Yes, there are a lot of good artifact removal effects which can slow players down. But I would also point out a few things here too.
Mana dorks are a very common form of ramp in commander. Most green decks will run a bunch of them and there are even strategies (elf ball) which almost solely relies on them. But just as artifacts can be hated on, white has some of THE best creature removal in the game. This includes both single target but also mass removal, which can severely hamper your opponents with regards to ramp. And unlike green (who is the main comparison point here), white doesn't rely on mana dorks, leaving you relatively unaffected from a mana standpoint.
In addition to this, white has a lot of ways of protecting your stuff from being destroyed, whether it's indestructible, hexproof, just an outright Teferi's Protection (which yes you did mention), or more importantly shutting down an opponent's removal source using Torpor Orb effects, of which white has many. Sure, this doesn't stop everything, but it can shut down a lot of (especially green) big bad ones. We are seeing a lot of these printed in new sets, to the point where WotC are really trying to drive home the point that "this is what white does".
Ok, now circling back (And I will do this more than once) and picking up on my previous paragraph. On the topic of land ramp - white is very good at shutting down this. between all of the MLD, Balance type effects and library shutdown effects like Aven Mindcensor , white hating on green's land ramp is to green hating on artifacts (i.e. white's main ramp source). Again I reiterate, this is what white does. It has been made abundantly clear, since we have time and time again seen printing of cards that equalise the board, to take away other players' advantages. So again I push the point that white is capable, however the issue here is that it's not the way you (or some other casule commander players) want it to be. But again, that's not white's shortfall.
On Graveyard Recursion
This topic follows on from the whole artifact removal thing. Yes, white is very strong in graveyard recursion. And just to touch on one of your points, even recently white got a bunch of graveyard recursion via cards like Daring Archaeologist and Restoration Specialist . Not repeatable sure, but still decent. And let's face it, any mono-white commander product is going to see Sun Titan reprinted. But back to the whole recusrion thing in general - while white is good at recursion, it's permanent based, not specifically land based. Yes, this overlaps (especially in the case of Sun Titan ) but here it's just a bit of nice value.
Land recursion is very much a green thing (I'm not even going to list the cards) and that makes sense. But for white, the recursion is generally symmetric if en masse. And again, this makes sense. White is good at wrecking stuff, so it's also good at bringing stuff back. But the point is that just because you wreck stuff and bring it back symmetrically doesn't mean that you can't exile a graveyard or two in the middle. Ok, but what's my concern with what you're recommending (both across the board but let's talk specifics)?
So, fundamentally I have no issues with the release of white cards which can return permanents from the graveyard to the battlefield, and fundamentally I have no issues with pairing these cards with any kind of fetchlands to ramp. As you mentioned, we have the new Sevinne's Reclamation and Brought Back alongside Sun Titan and Profound Journey .
Where I have issue in this case is not with the concept of having a cheaper spell that hits smaller stuff, but in this case your suggestion. Unforntunately, ther is a fine line between being able to be used early game for ramp purposes and just being broken. The card you proposed is similar in effect to Unearth , though it being able to hit any permanent for 2 mana (yes, even CMC 2 or less) is super good. That means that in legacy it can hit cards like Young Pyromancer , Snapcaster Mage (to get other spells even at sorcery, like itself for example), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Wasteland , etc. as well as potentially getting another permanent too. It just seems way too powerful. Sure, we could start tweaking the mana costs/effects but I think you would end up with effectively a functional reprint of Sevinne's Reclamation . And look, if that's what you're going for then that's fine. But that's the danger with working under the guise of returning permanents while focusing on lands.
As for the land sepcific recursion effect though, this just seems out of charater (and heavily moving into green's territory). Just because one card was printed, which again did a symmetric effect (almost seems good with Armageddon + Tormod's Crypt ...) does not mean that it's a shoo-in for more cards to be printed like that. Planar Birth was printed inthe same set as Catastrophe and it seems like those cards were designed to play well with each other. As for hitting land drops each turn, I have no issues with this (hell, I even mentioend it before) and to aid in the available "non-good fetch" fetches, you have Terramorphic Expanse , Evolving Wilds , Myriad Landscape , Grasslands , Flood Plain , Bant Panorama , Esper Panorama , Naya Panorama , Warped Landscape , Terminal Moraine and Thawing Glaciers . That's a pretty good collection of budget fetch effects that already exist. And between Scaretiller , Sun Titan , Sevinne's Reclamation and Crucible of Worlds (and in conjuction with other ramp) there are already options there.
Again, I will double down on my argument that if you look, these cards already exist and can be made to work together in a deck. Yes, Crucible of Worlds has ~$25 USD price tag (at the time of writing this) however that is not too exorbitant for a strong EDH card.
On Other Colours
I get that each colour has its strengths and weaknesses and that when you put all of them alongside each other there will always be a worst colour. But I don't think that's a bad thing. White is an incredibly powerful colour outside of commander, and as a second colour, white is still super good. But mono-white has to have a weakness. In this case, it's slow. Buat again, that's done for a reason - because white represents balance. White might be slow, but it will do a really good job of slowing you down with it. And again, I get that ther will be a group of players who don't want to play all of the stax cards for fear of getting other poeple's backs up. But what about the players who don't care about that? you've now just armed a bunch of people with ramp and draw with their existing supply of stax. Think of how much worse that will be.
Now onto red (since you touched on it) - yes, WotC have come up with a nice balance for red's card advantage (in that it matches red's ramp style) - momentary bursts of value. Rituals and exile - you use it or you lose it kind of effects, which makes sense (and which you pointed out). But it's all done within the bounds of the colour pie still. But everything about white screams that it's card advantage is making sure your opponents don't have cards.
While I believe that commander should be avaialble to anyone, there are some cold, hard facts: Some people can spend more than others, and, not everybody within a playgroup has the same budget.
The cards I listed before were budgetless and in most cases, the best of the best. And I understand that only a small portion of commander players actually own said cards. But there are always alternative cards at all budgets, they just may not be as desirable. But that's where my double standard comment came in, which is "if you want to play a colour that doens't have good ramp, but still want the best ramp then either pay the money to buy the good (read "expensive") stuff or deal with the fact that you can't/won't buy it." I don't think that's an unfair statement, and it's a slippery slope once you start pandering to it.
But again, if ther is a budget discrepency within a playgroup then I also don't think that it is WotC's responsiblity to fix it. This is something that the players have to own and is an entire discussion point in an of itself, so I will leave that there. But I think most players would agree with me on this.
On Other Players
Here's where we get to brass tacks (if we haven't already), I wouldn't agree with you on the comment that "a large portion of the commander community" thinks that mono-white needs fixing. Ther eare some poeple, sure. And those people might make a lot of noise about it, but that doesn't mean it's the majority of players. I know that most players who I interact with would agree wiht my viewpoint on it.
And don't get me wrong, I play both casual and competitive lists, I work full time and have funds available to afford nicer cards. A casual list for me sits in the $400-500 range. But before you discount my opinion becasue fo that, hear me out. I have looked at many, many, many lists on tapped out, ranging from <$100 to >$5000 and have learnt a lot over the years. Typically the things I notice is that the kinds of poeple who complain about a lack of XYZ have also employed a lot of bad deck-building practices (no, I'm not implying this on your lists). Really heavy mana curves, little ramp to begin with, high CMC ramp, lack of focused win conditions, all that good stuff. And I'm not saying that the decks are completely unplayable, but a lot of them are really clunky and slow. And I won't begrudge people for building those decks. But if your average CMC is 4.5 and then you're complaining that your deck is slow, that's becasue of the card choices you made. However bad deckbuilding is not WotC's fault.
So compared to those poeple, I will be a bit arrogant and say I undstand balance better than them, yes. But, and more importantly, so does WotC - because they seem to be printing more stax cards for white as sets come out, but not more ramp and card advantage which would fix the non-problem.
2 weeks ago
Tzefick: I'm kind of confused here, what are you trying to say? Which cards are you talking about?
And yes, youv'e listed a bunch of cards that already exist and provide some level of pseudo ramp or provide card advantage. So again, I'm confused. What is the point you're trying to make here?
Some cards like Sun Titan can bring back fetchlands sure, however that is a nice side function of the card. But trying to build a card which specifically brings back lands not only seems very green and not white, but also means that players need to have a bunch of fetchlands in their deck, thuis making it unusable for the majority of casual players whose budget doesn't facilitate the cards.
And if you make it cheap enough, legcay D&T would love that since they can abuse the crap out of Wasteland .
again, white is not good at card advantage or ramp, but that is by design. But it can suppliment this by running artifacts which is what it does. That's the point of artifacts - they are good at filling in gaps, albeit at a higher cost.
So when you combine this whit hte little ramp that white has, you actually have a playable amount available:
Sol Ring , Mana Vault , Mana Crypt , Grim Monolith , Arcane Signet , Thought Vessel , Mind Stone , Fellwar Stone , Marble Diamond , Coldsteel Heart , Wayfarer's Bauble , Knight of the White Orchid , Mox Diamond , Chrome Mox , Lotus Petal , Pearl Medallion and that's without going above 2 mana. No, some of these are not the best ramp, but that's how it works.
And white has decent tutoring whern it comes to equipment. I don't see why they need a bunch more unconditional draw power.
So, let's put this back on you for a second since you're the one who believes there's an issue. Assuming you would need say 10 different white ramp/draw cards to offset the cards already available. Try coming up with the 10 cards that aren't just functional reprints (think Nature's Lore vs Three Visits ) and that wont break other formats, but are still fair for both casual and competitive commander as well as the other eternal formats.
2 weeks ago
Nice Build! +1
Knight of the White Orchid is one of my favorite cards to use at the moment. White has virtually no mana ramp & he can even be used in dual-color decks to pull dual lands so long as they have basic land types still.
This looks very similar to one of of my deck builds with the exception that mine isn't a Tribal knight build; I'll just leave link to it here instead of suggesting tons of cards. Suffice to say your Knight selection looks decent to me, you might just want a couple supplement cards or Sideboard options and my Mono-White deck is downright evil:
Check it out & Let me know if it helps!: Intense Aura Beatdown
3 weeks ago
At a glance, one thing that stands out to me is the number of higher-mana cards. I see that many of the 4 and 5-mana drops are 1-of's in your deck (1x), but some mana ramp might speed up the rate at which you can get them into play.
A favorite combo of mine when using White or White combo in a deck is to include Knight of the White Orchid and running the basic-land-type dual lands ( Black/White has only Godless Shrine that qualifies for his fetch in your case ).
He is basically one of the only ways to mana-ramp White. Black has some other more obvious options for mana-ramp like Dark Ritual , Culling the Weak , Cabal Ritual , and a couple others, but these generate exclusively Black mana.
The ability to fetch your dual lands ( as well as play out 2 lands in one turn ) from Knight of the White Orchid can be a real boon in a dual-color deck and is one that you won't find duplicated in any spell for those colors. Maybe something to consider for ya.
Either way, nice build! +1
3 weeks ago
I like your deck! It has a similar flavor to my Grixis Twisted Group Hug (No Pain, No Gain!), where I can help with cards and effects, but at a cost. The idea was a Zedruu the Greathearted , but with black, black being my favorite Mtg color. I invite you to take a look at my deck and draw some inspiration from it. One of the principles of the deck is that I don't target destroy/exile/counterspell anything; "that wouldn't be nice, from a good guy that helps you, eh?". I personnally found that Illicit Auction and Pain's Reward are such fun cards and can hurt a player so bad at the same time ! You could also consider any cards with the Join Forces and Tempting Offer mechanics. If I do help someone, it is not everybody, like I originally would have like. So to be honest, I may rename my deck "Grixis Bitter Hugs" -because I think it is more accurate than "Grixis Twisted Group Hug"- if you don't mind. While commenting, I took time to update my deck's description, which was pretty much empty before lol
You could also add Anvil of Bogardan , Oracle's Vault , Outpost Siege , Vance's Blasting Cannons Flip, Bloodgift Demon , Indulgent Tormentor , Well of Lost Dreams ... Phyrexian Arena is a must, Rhystic Study is a beast (but pricy $), Mystic Remora is great and you could add also Braid of Fire , comboing with Luminarch Ascension . For more lands, add Land Tax , Knight of the White Orchid , Weathered Wayfarer , Sword of the Animist , Thaumatic Compass Flip, Journeyer's Kite ...
3 weeks ago
One thing i suggest you look at is some knights that will work with Kwende, cards like Fiendslayer Paladin , White Knight , Black Knight would all be great additions. Another thing to look at adding is some card draw, even though it doesnt fit the knight theme, Mentor of the Meek could be very strong off of Aryel. Knight of the White Orchid is an excellent card especially when you are playing against certain decks because of white and black being traditionally bad at finding lands.
3 weeks ago
21- Plains 4 - Sungrace Pegasus 4 - Knight of the White Orchid 4 - Aerial Responder 3 - Ajani's Pridemate 3 - Fencing Ace 2 - Stone Haven Medic 2 - Gideon's Company 2 - Twinblade Paladin 2 - Impassioned Orator 4 - Desperate Lunge 4 - Gideon's Reproach 3 - Riot Control 1 - Ajani, Inspiring Leader
Any help would be appreciated; whether cards need to be replaced or maybe even going multi-colored instead of mono white.
Knight of the White Orchid occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.03%