Banlist Open Discussion

Modern forum

Posted on Sept. 17, 2021, 5:17 a.m. by sergiodelrio

Hello fellow Planeswalkers. I made this thread so we can discuss the cards currently on the Modern banlist (SEE BOTTOM OF POST) and look if there may be candidates for unbanning, since it has been a while since something moved off the list.

I'm one of those crazy people that wants to live in a world where Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe are legal, but I see how that's not realistic whatsoever, so I won't talk about here. Let's have this discussion to be about REALISTIC, reasonable and safe unbannings.

Here are my candidates:

Deathrite Shaman - With all the easy cheap removal and grave hate in the format plus the general push of power level in the recent years, is this really a big deal anymore? Not even sure Jund wants it anymore. Since this doesn't enable a game winning combo or lockout on the spot, I think it deserves a second chance.

Artifact land cycle ala Ancient Den. So, they even injected another 10 artifact lands - are those even being played much competitively? My gut is this was a probe to see if they indeed could unban the old artifact lands. Artifact removal is much more available these days and the old artifact lands don't even come with indestructible sooo...

Rite of Flame - but Sergio! Fast mana is broken. Yes indeed. But they did ban Simian Spirit Guide and hear my out why Rite of Flame is weaker. SSG does not require you to play or a mountain to activate, Rite does and even costs a mana to begin with. SSG has a secondary feature being a creature and can be cast at a reasonable cost of 3 mana. Rite doesn't have that. Since they took Mox Opal and SSG, I think Rite of Flame might deserve a chance as a weaker substitution.

Please tell me what you think about that and/or show me your argumenst for other unbannings that you can see happening.


Ancient Den

Arcum's Astrolabe

Birthing Pod

Blazing Shoal

Bridge from Below

Chrome Mox

Cloudpost

Dark Depths

Deathrite Shaman

Dig Through Time

Dread Return

Eye of Ugin

Faithless Looting

Field of the Dead

Gitaxian Probe

Glimpse of Nature

Golgari Grave-Troll

Great Furnace

Green Sun's Zenith

Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Hypergenesis

Krark-Clan Ironworks

Mental Misstep

Mox Opal

Mycosynth Lattice

Mystic Sanctuary

Oko, Thief of Crowns

Once Upon a Time

Ponder

Preordain

Punishing Fire

Rite of Flame

Seat of the Synod

Second Sunrise

Seething Song

Sensei's Divining Top

Simian Spirit Guide

Skullclamp

Splinter Twin

Summer Bloom

Tibalt's Trickery

Treasure Cruise

Tree of Tales

Umezawa's Jitte

Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Vault of Whispers

xtechnetia says... #2

DRS is in no way realistic to be unbanned in Modern.

If you follow Modern, you understand how powerful Ragavan is. So imagine that, except you don't even have to attack to get value out of the creature.

Rite of Flame isn't happening either. I'm personally fond of powerful combo decks, but Wizards and the Modern community at large is not, and fast mana has a quite a track record in Magic history of supercharging other stuff.

The Mirrodin artifact lands would have been a possible unban candidate - before MH2. I see no chance of it now with the explosion of artifact-heavy decks.

September 17, 2021 7:18 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #3

xtechnetia DRS sure is strong. However, looking at Pioneer where this card is legal, it doesn't get played much tbh. The format has Thoughtseize and decent removal in general and even access to Fabled Passage. Yes, getting lands in the grave there is much harder but wouldn't you think it'd be much more prominent if if were THAT broken?

Does the mere existence of fetchlands in Modern push DRS over the top? In my opinion, no. But I definitely see your point and answering that question with yes is a perfectly reasonable opinion.

Thanks for your point of view on this!

September 17, 2021 9:19 a.m. Edited.

TriusMalarky says... #4

Fetchlands are absolutely insane. They not only represent perfect mana, but basics for playing around Blood Moon, cards in the grave for things like Delirium, Tarmogoyf, and Delve cards like Tasigur, the Golden Fang or the banned Treasure Cruise; extra Landfall triggers, a deck shuffle(which is less relevant in Modern without Brainstorm but it still does something), and more.

Basically, fetchlands mean that not only is there always a land in grave, so Delirium only requires 3 rather than 4 card types worth of work, and DRS is at least Birds of Paradise, but that many decks that use fetches literally have more mana and more card draw than they would have otherwise.

DRS would be Ragavan . . . but worse, because now three different colors have access to that sort of perfect 1-drop. Jund would become the best color combination with access to eight turn one ramp plays that also present clocks, Lurrus to get them back, Dauthi as a wincon and Bauble as a card draw engine, and just a pile of the best interaction in the colors.

September 17, 2021 10:09 a.m.

I'm a fan of unbanning everything and lets go a season or two and see what needs to go.

September 17, 2021 10:24 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #6

TriusMalarky no doubt about the power and relevance of fetchies in modern in general.

But you said it yourself - it's just another bird (exaggerated oversimplification ofc - that bird has crazy upside) and you still need to make room for it/can't run every card. Jund only has 'answer me' creatures anyway. DRS doesn't have haste and doesn't change the board state until your next turn, Ragavan has dash. "Dies to removal".

Just presenting you with my POV here and somewhat playing devil's advocate. You did make a reasonable point, not questioning your sanity xD

September 17, 2021 10:29 a.m. Edited.

Caerwyn says... #7

It is worth pointing out that Deathrite Shaman is also banned in Legacy, where, for a while, it was called "the best Planeswalker in the format."

It is also the single most played creature in the Vintage by a large margin. 22.1% of Vintage decks run a full set of four copies of Deathrite Shaman. The next highest creature is Collector Ouphe, sitting at a mere 15.9% of decks, with an average of only 2.3 copies run. The only other creature in the top ten creatures in Vintage that gets a full set of four is Hollow One, which is not indicative of Hollow One's general applicability, just its usefulness in Hollow One decks.

Saying DRS would be fine in Modern ignores that it was enough of a problem to be banned in Legacy and is powerful enough to reign unquestionably supreme amongst creatures in Vintage.

It is not a problem in Pauper because I’m Pauper it will mostly be a 1/2 for 1 because there are no fetches. Fetches mean DRS is useful every single turn--it is a bird that can also burn your opponent repeatedly as long as you have ammunition.

September 17, 2021 10:43 a.m. Edited.

sergiodelrio says... #8

Caerwyn that was actually convincing.

OK, I changed my mind regarding DRS - keep that dude banned.

September 17, 2021 10:47 a.m.

Icbrgr says... #9

I watch a podcast from The MMcast discussing this subject... there talking points about Second Sunrise was particularly interesting in my opinion.... basically stated that in a large tournament where time is such a factor is the reason why it should stay banned however in smaller tournaments or if things went digital/automated it could probably come off.

September 17, 2021 12:08 p.m.

xtechnetia says... #10

1 mana creatures being vulnerable to removal doesn't really mean much. There's no real risk to deploying them - if they get removed immediately, your opponent still only traded evenly at best.

"Answer me immediately or fall far behind" is fine if the creature is like, 4 mana, because that represents a genuine risk being taken (your opponent can likely answer it for less, has had time to develop board state, etc). At 1 mana that's likely way too powerful.

The other thing about DRS is that it plays the role of a mana dork without suffering the same drawback as traditional mana dorks (namely, that they're terrible topdecks later). The deckbuilding cost of a traditional mana dork is substantial - you might get useful mana acceleration on turn 1, at the cost of a possible dead draw on turn 10. DRS is a genuine threat no matter when it's drawn, in addition to its mana acceleration. For some comparison, Noble Hierarch is a Modern and Legacy staple, and pretty much the only thing it does later in the game is provide exalted.

DRS is one of those cards that's perhaps hard to appreciate on paper, but when you watch games being played with it (or sit down at a table with it yourself), you'll quickly understand why it's possibly the best creature ever printed in Magic's history. "1 mana planeswalker" indeed.

September 17, 2021 12:21 p.m.

wallisface says... #11

Personally I don’t think we should have any unbans at the moment - the dust is still settling from MH2, and the format still feels very “alive” (imo it makes more sense to risk an unban during times when a format feels stale).

Even outside of whether this is the right time, I don’t think any of the cards on the ban list should be getting unbanned anyway:

  • DST has already been discussed heavily above. It be scary.

  • Artifact lands are an unnecessary risk to unban for no real potential gain. The tapped ones introduced in MH2 already effectively bought affinity decks back from the dead, and let them compete. While i’m not convinced the banned Artefact lands are strong enough to immediately break the format, they create more design issues than they should be, and are liable to just be re-banned in a future artifact-themed-set. Affinity players don’t need that heartbreak.

  • Rite of Flame makes too many decks too fast. It immediately makes combo front-and centre. As well as being equally as abusable as SSG, it also boosts Storm to worrying levels, as well as Jeskai Ascendancy combo. It’s basically SSG but also a spell, making it stronger in a bunch of scenarios. But the fact its an SSG-clone is enough to mean this should stay banned

September 17, 2021 5:40 p.m.

wallisface says... #12

If I were a betting man, i’d say we’d not see any unbans before the end of 2022 - but we will see at least 3 more existing cards banned at some stage before then.

September 17, 2021 5:42 p.m.

sergiodelrio says... #13

wallisface Please point me to the broken, meta dominating decks that SSG pushed over the top. Did it need a ban in the first place?

September 17, 2021 6:01 p.m. Edited.

sergiodelrio says... #14

I feel the fear of storm scenario is 100% hypothetical until proven otherwise. It's never even been a real deck in modern, has it?

September 17, 2021 6:05 p.m.

wallisface says... #15

sergiodelrio SSG was banned super-recently, so there’s zero chance they’re unbanning its twin. Wotcs official statement on the SSG ban was

“ Simian Spirit Guide is a card we’ve had our eye on for some time as an enabler that speeds up fast combo decks.

To slow down that category of combo decks as a whole and give opponents more time to set up interactive plays in the early game, Simian Spirit Guide is banned.”

In general fast mana is an issue prior to turn 2. The big reason the card got banned to begin with was at a time when people could abuse it with Cascade to get out a turn 1-or-2 Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor. The rules for Cascade have since changed, but the risk fast mana in general poses remains, although admittedly Rite of Flame having a cmc of 1 makes it harder to abuse in some of the shells SSG thrived in.

Storm does still exist, but admittedly not with any meaningful percentage. I’m probably channelling my local meta a bit too much there - which has a few storm decks.

September 17, 2021 6:25 p.m.

wallisface says... #16

A big personal issue with these fast mana effects is that it allows for turn-1 Blood Moon plays, which can effectively lock the majority of decks out of the game. I get that’s not the reason the ban happened, but it still shows how early mana can lead to abusive situations.

It just let people enact dangerous plans a little too quick, preventing time for a valid response. Magic should be interactive.

September 17, 2021 6:31 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #17

I'd say since KCI was banned I would imagine Second Sunrise to be able to return.

Outside of this since we have seen the previous Jace and Stoneforge unmanned the next card I'd say fit that would be Splinter Twin.

I wouldn't make any other bets or assumptions

September 17, 2021 9 p.m.

Given the list above, I would say punishing fire could probably be unbanned safely. The days of grinding Grove of the Burnwillows with it are long gone in my opinion. Especially given the number of ways to exile graveyards nowadays.

September 17, 2021 10:49 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #19

psionictemplar, while I do love grinding legacy lands and 4c control piles in legacy, the fact is anti-control right now in modern is mostly limited to Thalia, Meddling Mage, Esperanto Sentinel, Ragavan, Eidolon, and friends, which while mage can name the forsaken card, the fact is most creature based lists aren't just having to deal with a repeated removal engine from control, they have to deal with it from jund, burn, zoo, lurrus aggro, ponza and every red or green lost able to run some cards like this. When facing control if they deal with this, or any other deck, they dealt with a combo between a still decent burn spell and a decent land. Fact is both cards unlike effects like twin or bloom are good on their own even without their natural counterparts. When together they are just insane.

It's not healthy to give certain colors automatic combos, and make tons of decks splash it for the value, it leads to creatures becoming less valuable, which some may say after the release of effects like DRC, Ragavan, Esper Sentinel, Dauthi, etc. would be healthy, time and time again R&D has pushed creatures for modern as a result of the playstyle they like to cultivate and multiple noncreature cards lists have been banned out of modern for making creatures decks more difficult to balance or use in modern, from Birthing Pod to Glimpse (technically banned for the sins of elves in legacy/extended I think) to lists like KCI that absolutely sh*t on most creature lists.

September 18, 2021 3:10 a.m.

SynergyBuild : While I do see the point you are making as far as creature decks having to grind through something like this, most creatures are either too large for this to matter (ex: Primeval Titan) or played in a deck like blitz or hammer which can win before this would ever become relevant. It would be tough for something along the lines of a lurrus recursion, but that sort of deck does try to grind anyways. To put a long post short, I still think the creature decks face bigger obstacles than this would ever be, nowadays. I can elaborate more later if need be, but for now I gotta leave for work.

September 18, 2021 7:14 a.m.

Oof_Magic says... #21

SynergyBuild I’d sooner see KCI than Second Sunrise unbanned. Most are aware of how infamously long Eggs turns we’re back in the day (when Eggs didn’t even run KCI). Many forget that it wasn’t uncommon to be going off on turn 2-3 with Sunrise.

Safe unbans would include:

Blazing Shoal

Field of the Dead

Mycosynth Lattice

Punishing Fire

Splinter Twin

Tibalt's Trickery

After that you have the tier of discussion, cards which are probably not safe but warrant investigation and testing. These would be:

Birthing Pod

Golgari Grave-Troll OR Bridge from Below

Oko, Thief of Crowns

Umezawa's Jitte

I’m not saying this second listed section is safe to unban. I am saying that I could see the format work it’s way to a point where these could be unbanned.

September 19, 2021 10:53 a.m. Edited.

legendofa says... #22

Punishing Fire isn't a significant threat any more, in my opinion. I only remember it being used in Kird Ape/Wild Nacatl Naya Zoo decks alongside Grove of the Burnwillows, and Wild Nacatl spent some time on the banned list, too. Now it's a non-entity in tournaments.

I think Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer is much more banworthy than Faithless Looting, but that might be the salt talking. Pretty much every tiered deck that Faithless Looting was in saw further bans, so I don't think Looting was the problem.

September 19, 2021 11:20 a.m.

Grubbernaut says... #23

I'm okay with bans that aren't just for raw power level, but being unfun to have to sit through. Field of the Dead is nearly-free inevitability that just isn't enjoyable, and easily-repeatable creature killers push the meta towards control-only, etc.

September 19, 2021 1:31 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #24

Oof_Magic for sure second breakfast isn't a fun deck to watch, and I could see it being so much that way that it's unbearable, but I do believe the raw power level of the format can handle it is all. I'd never want to see it unbanned personally.

Similarly I think you assume too much of the meta if you think trickery is safe to allow. While simian spirit guide is out of the format, the fact that modern horizons two means there is now another card that hits it is massive, and that boost in consistency will make it the best deck in the format and extremely unfun. I also doubt oko could ever be allowed, but I'd love to discuss what version of the meta you could imagine it safe in. Perhaps a very creature light meta? The idea of Goose, Emry, Urza, Oko just seems too much for me.

September 19, 2021 2:25 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #25

Wish I could edit my last comment, took too long to remember, lattice/karn is too much for tron to have. I'm all for testing waters but we have been down that road enough to know it's not healthy.

September 19, 2021 2:35 p.m.

Oof_Magic says... #26

SynergyBuild I can’t say I really understood how the Trickery deck worked. Could you enlighten me?

Oko, Thief of Crowns is certainly annoying but with Arcum's Astrolabe banned, perhaps in a Modern where Mishra's Bauble is banned, Oko may come back? Perhaps it’s not a matter of what is in the format right now or banned. Regardless of what changes could make it happen, I think there are cards next to Oko, like Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin which are cards I believe fall into a category of being worthy of discussing. Then you have cards like Gitaxian Probe, Hypergenesis, and Chrome Mox which fall firmly out of said discussion as far as Modern is concerned and can probably stay banned on consensus forever and always.

Karn/Lattice is certainly a powerful late game for Tron and I agree that it shouldn’t exist in the format. We already see consistency as the rationale for most bans Ponder, Preordain, Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith. It strikes me as weird that it was not the tutor that got banned but the target. I think that Karn needed the boot. I believe Mattice was doing nothing until that came along.

September 19, 2021 4:13 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #27

Oof_Magic I think the reason for karn staying isn't which piece is more powerful, it's which piece is more breakable. Fact is any deck trying to play lattice isn't doing it for color fixing in modern, they are doing it for broken reasons. Sure back when legacy lists were thinking Aluren/Imperial Recruiter is the only possible deck people weren't claiming the tutor was the issue, it was the card the engine broken. We have other one-sided hate that works with lattice.

In the end aluren was stopped when delver lists started with full anti-combo and dominated, which I would hope for modern too, but we simply don't have the force of will to interact.

3 mana cascade spell into trickery, counter the 3 mana spell, hit emrakul or ulamog or kozilek or cascade spell, if cascade spell, repeat, if eldrazi titan, win. Only failcase is hitting trickery.

At the time the list ran 8 cascade spells and 8 ways of ramping. The ramp was simian spirit guide, another failcase at the time, and gemstone caverns, which only worked occasionally. List was extremely fast and consistent at casting 1-3 eldrazi in the first few turns of the game. Omniscience was run to cast them from the hand if you drew into eldrazi.

The deck now has sharpness agent, so 4 less ramp, 4 more cascade. Less speed more consistency

September 19, 2021 9:36 p.m. Edited.

Caerwyn says... #28

Oof_Magic - I don't foresee a universe where Oko gets unbanned. He is too powerful and too versatile of a card. The announcement for why he was banned in Modern was fairly poorly articulated, but his Legacy ban announcement put it rather well:

"Because of its power and flexibility, Oko can provide an easy answer even to unanticipated threats and defenses and generally homogenizes gameplay patterns in a way that's counter to the spirit of the format. Therefore, we're choosing to ban Oko, Thief of Crowns." Sorce.

Oko's power comes from his ability to answer most every deck. For three mana you get a Planeswalker who can remove any artifact or any creature... and that just makes your Oko bigger, not smaller.

There is a reason Oko is only seen in Vintage, where he currently sits as the second most played Planeswalker (Narset, Parter of Veils has him beat by a substantial margin--which makes sense in a format where wheels run wild). Over 1-in-5 Vintage decks run a copy of Oko, since he serves as a strong answer to any number of huge threats.

September 19, 2021 9:52 p.m.

Oof_Magic says... #29

SynergyBuild I checked out a video explaining the Trickery deck and I concede, that is ridiculous. I had imagined it as being just as frail as something like Treasure Hunt + Lightning Storm. But the more cascade heavy variant would be trying you with that nonsense every single turn. Trickery is on par with Hypergenesis.

I maintain that Karn was the proper ban. The ‘only exists in the format to do broken things’ is applicable to any combo deck. Decks playing Thassa's Oracle probably aren’t looking to do ‘fair’ things. If Teferi, Time Raveler also could tutor for Knowledge Pool, I don’t think that would make Pool broken. Karn was the problem. The tutor doubled as a damned combo piece! That’s silly! If you could humor me for downtown hyptheticalville, if we errata Karn’s static ability away and add Null Rod to the format, I don’t think anything gets banned.

Caerwyn I definitely agree that Oko is far from safe to plug in right now. But I see it as a card where the meta may evolve to a point that it can accept Oko. I’m simply differentiating cards I think are up for discussion at some point or not. I don’t know what it would take to make the Oko conducive to Modern and whether that says anything good about the format. Oko doesn’t strike me as a Hypergenesis, Tibalt's Trickery, Dread Return, or Summer Bloom type of ban. And there are definitely different types of bans. I see Oko like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Splinter Twin, or Umezawa's Jitte where we look back every couple years and wonder ‘Is it safe now?’ I agree I wouldn’t have any to see his stupid face any time soon but I wasn’t exactly thrilled to be seeing Jace and Stoneforge Mystic (talk about a linear play pattern). If we unleashed entirety of the ban list, maybe a Delver Oko build would be the one challenger amid a sea of combo decks. But I don’t think Oko would be very meaningful there. Modern would immediately become degenerate and some refer to Modern as Legacy-lite already. While I think the unleashing of absurd combos would be the totality of that transformation, perhaps releasing Oko is the first step in that direction. A direction that is ultimately unhealthy for the format. Aka: Where other bans are absolute, consensus, and thoroughly unquestionable, Oko is at least up for discussion.

September 19, 2021 10:59 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #30

Oof_Magic - Maybe, but I am not sure I foresee Modern ever reaching that point. If Legacy, with its much larger card pool and historically more powerful sets, doesn't have enough answers, I do not think Modern--which is mostly fed by a Standard Wizards keeps relatively low-power--is going to get there.

I think Oko's only real chance would be something printed in a Modern Horizons set--but I think we will need to see several efficient answers before he comes off the ban list. One or two answers will not be enough--there need to be enough answers in enough different colors that the vast majority of the meta could sideboard in against an Oko.

September 19, 2021 11:52 p.m.

TriusMalarky says... #31

Second Sunrise and Krark-Clan Ironworks are banned almost entirely because they ruin tournaments. Not from a game balance perspective, necessarily, but because they can make so many games go to time, which can drag out the length of a tournament, which gets really problematic really quickly.

Mycosynth Lattice and Bridge from Below are banned because they either do unfair and unfun things, and possibly busted beyond belief things, or they do absolutely nothing. Bridge did squat until MH1 brought the Gaak and Altar, Lattice wasn't anywhere near playable until KTGC was printed. In bridge's case, the card that made it busted was also busted, and now bridge does basically nothing. In Lattice's case, KTGC is a fine card that is actually better for the format than it is bad, but add lattice and it takes a deck people aren't fans of anyways and turns it into a stax deck, which is probably the single most hated concept in Magic.

(Karn is a failsafe in case powerful artifact decks become a thing again -- there's a solid, reasonably castable value walker that can slot into any midrange build, maindeckable, that kills artifact based decks. I feel that that failsafe is important, and that the effect doesn't harm the meta significantly)

Blazing Shoal is similar -- when does it do fair things? The decks it'd be in would either die to Fatal Push or win on turn two. It's either a meme or format breaking. The conversation of unbanning things has to include "what does this do to make the format better?" In the case of a lot of these cards, nothing. Shoal, Lattice, Bridge and more don't do anything at best and become problematic at worst.

Twin is not unbannable either -- while it would be fun to see, it is a deck that plays the control role and then wins as soon as you let your guard down. Yeah, it's an easily stoppable combo . . . but the Twin player doesn't have to go for the win until they are sure you can't stop them. If they can Remand, Counterspell, Archmage's Charm and Cryptic Command their way into a good position(and that package is just very good anyways), then they can wait until you tap out for a threat and just win then. And cards that can answer them for no mana tend to be bad enough that they don't help against other decks -- which is problematic, to say the least.

Pod is interesting. It has a bit of an "eggs" feel, where it can take a while, but it's not as bad. Couple that with the fact that it can make use of every single creature, period, and you get a deck that's mostly just a headache for Wizards. It might not be bad for the format right now, but Wizards makes one mistake(and did you see 2019?) and suddenly it runs away with the game and becomes busted as all hell. So Pod should stay banned, not because it would really be bad(it would probably be fun) but it makes Wizard's job a lot harder(they have to check every, and I mean every, creature that they ever print against basically every other one).

Jitte is bad because it's used by creature decks to beat creature decks. First, it can't be unbanned in a Modern with Stoneforge in it(tutoring up Jitte would be way too consistent), but also, if I wanted to build a creature deck, I don't want to be forced to purchase some random equipment that has nothing to do with the rest of my gameplan other than "resolve this against another creature deck and you win". And then creature decks become Jitte versus Jitte. It would have a Copter effect on Modern, which just isn't fun from a variety standpoint. Especially with Ragavan in Modern. We unban Jitte, and RW Stoneforge Ragavan Jitte is probably the best deck by quite a bit.

Oko is, as mentioned, a 3 mana answer to almost anything. And by almost anything, I mean he gains enough life singlehandedly to make aggro untenable, he can be a good enough win condition to make non-Oko control not worth it, he answers big mana decks with an uptick, and more. He's the best permanent because he makes all other permanents irrelevant. Oh, you have a Prime Time? Elk. That's a nice Bob you have there, be a shame if I forcefully traded it for a food. Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer? How about Ragavan, Suddenlyonmysideandthere'snothingyoucandoaboutit? He'd be bad in a meta that's entirely storm(oh wait . . . that sounds a lot like Vintage and cEDH . . . I wonder what the two formats he's still playable in think about him? Oh? He's still busted there? Dang.) and I don't think that's fun.

As for Field of the Dead? Once that's online, you don't get to win. It's miserable. Most things I can get behind the first couple times I play against them, because most decks are cool, but not Field. It's just unfun to sit across from it.

September 20, 2021 2:54 p.m.

jethstriker says... #32

My friend and I had a talk a long time ago about how the eternal format banlist are sometimes outdated and some cards deserved to be unbanned. We came to an agreement (our opinions) that those cards are purposefully being kept banned until there comes a time something really needs to banned. Sort of prisoner exchange, to appease some people over the bannings.

September 20, 2021 7:47 p.m.

Oof_Magic says... #33

TriusMalarky

I think the notion that cards should be banned primarily for being unfun is against the spirit of the format. That takes away agency from players. There are plenty of annoying cards and decks. Maybe I find Mox Opal annoying but Mycosynth Lattice to be rather fun. Banning a card for being unfun is going to frustrate those that find it fun and the best explanation that could be given is ‘Well your opinion is in the minority.’ Bans should have some sort of backing with data to support it. Maybe it’s the consistency of speed. Maybe it’s the ubiquity of play. The only ban I know of that Wizards did primarily for being unfun would be Aetherworks Marvel. Wizards chucked more data into that announcement than any other to my knowledge. CYA That article was so long because that’s what happens when you turn over every stone and find the only explanation left is ‘y’all don’t like it.’ Any other article would just spit out the data to support the ban and be done with it.

I think it’s dismissive of combo decks to say a card should be banned if it only exists to do broken things. There should be a speed/consistency threshold. To say you can’t make infinite mana? You can’t cheat a big creature into play? Who’s using Ad Nauseam to do anything fair? Is anyone running Vizier of Remedies without Devoted Druid? Puresteel Paladin? Amulet of Vigor? Goryo's Vengeance? Blazing Shoal is, in my opinion, the most unbannable card. Lattice would be but admittedly, Karn would have to take its spot on the bus. Bridge was a strong component of Hollow One when it had Faithless Looting. Then Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis and Altar of Dementia came along and broke it wide open. They tried to weaken it with a Bridge ban but ultimately hit Hogaak anyway. I think they should have unbanned Bridge when they banned Hogaak. Or at least Golgari Grave-Troll?

I suppose a repeatable artifact tutor is okay even if a creature one is not? I stand by saying if something wasn’t a problem until X comes along, X made the problem. Lattice made Karn a one card combo. Karn falls into the same space as Stoneforge Mystic and Birthing Pod. To that end, if Pod means WotC has to check every creature they make, doesn’t Karn mean they have to check artifacts and Mystic mean equipment?

The more I think about Jitte, the more inclined I am to say it should stay banned. Giving every creature deck Jitte is not as conducive to format health as giving white creature decks Stoneforge.

You know what’s unfun to sit across? Urza's Saga. Unban Field of the Dead.

September 21, 2021 12:53 a.m. Edited.

wallisface says... #34

Oof_Magic I'd be happy to see Field of the Dead come back in exchange for Primeval Titan taking its place - that card can already be held largely responsible for many of the currently banned modern cards (as well as FotD, you could blame it for the bans of Once Upon a Time, and Summer Bloom, both of which might conceivably have a better chance of unban if Titan was gone). Titan is also (in my opinion) the biggest abuser of Urza's Saga, which I think is a perfectly fine (kindof) card outside of Titan-related-abuses.

September 21, 2021 1:37 a.m.

Oof_Magic says... #35

wallisface

I agree with all but Once Upon a Time being unbanned. I for one would dread playing OuaT Tron but there’s also CoCo, Elves, Infect, Bogles. OuaT was used in Prime Time decks but OuaT was banned for ubiquity, like Green Sun's Zenith. It certainly has a better chance of unban with Primeval Titan out of the picture, but that doesn’t solve what made OuaT a problem.

Ban Primeval Titan

Unban Summer Bloom & Field of the Dead

September 21, 2021 10:31 a.m.

TriusMalarky says... #36

Oof_Magic "Who's using [Naus] to do fair things?"

No one, and that's fine. Most combo decks that are still around are fairly interesting, intricate to play on both sides of the table, and both fast enough to win and slow enough not to be broken. Now, on Shoal specifically, I'm not completely against its unbanning -- it's just that it is a great example of the combo decks that either win only once in a blue moon because everyone is running Fatal Push, or are busted beyond belief and break the format in two. It might be fine, but then again, it'll either be bad or insanely good, and the lack of inbetween is the problem. Unlike Living End and other Cascade lists in Modern right now, or Hammer and whatnot, it either wins on turn 1-2 or scoops, and that's not a fun thing to sit across from and honestly, after the first few wins, it's not great to play.

"I suppose a repeatable artifact tutor is okay even if a creature one is not?" Karn is once per turn, which is a big restriction. Also, " . . . doesn’t Karn mean they have to check artifacts and Mystic mean equipment?": Wizards already checks every artifact they play. They have since forever ago. Artifacts so easily become broken that every time they let their guard down it makes a mess. And Equipment suffer from both that and the fact that they showed up, brought two of the most busted cards in magic's history(Jitte and Skullclamp), and then the next time they were big Stoneforge was also there(which is a one-use rather than repeatable tutor). Equipment are either mediocre at best or they are way too pushed anyways, and wizards knows it.

That's not to say that Karn and Stoneforge make Wizard's job a little harder on that front -- but most good cards do that to a degree. Pod is just so egregious that it has few other comparable cards.

Fr Urza's Saga, even if Saga was banned(I'm indifferent at the moment), I don't want to see Field unbanned. It's a win condition on a colorless land, and that's busted(and the biggest reason to ban Saga).

September 21, 2021 12:16 p.m.

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