theNeroTurtle - I did not say you were outraged - I said YouTube was an engine of generating outrage. That is something that is established fact, confirmed by multiple independent investigations and whistleblowers. Because angry content produces more views, YouTube an other social media sites adjust their algorithms for promoting angry material as that hits their bottom line. Saying that YouTube is an “outrage engine” is merely a truth based upon these facts; it is not a commentary on you - just the factual basis for my ignoring any YouTube link someone posts. No need to you to be defensive - as basic reading compression would show, you were not being attacked, YouTube was.

As for the rest of your post, I already basically responded to your points in the post you so very clearly did not comprehend.

First, this is an industry wide problem - Wizards is hardly the only entity hit by the global challenges facing the printing industry. This is not a frequency of product problem, but the fact printing companies are facing lots of different threats, making actually getting quality product sometimes difficult.

Second, Wizards clearly does inspect its product - they caught a printing problem with D&D product recently during such an inspection. But, as I already said, and as common sense dictates, you cannot inspect all the product with sealed cards. You can do a random sampling, sure, but based on the number of reports of game stores that were not hit by defective product, this seems to be a pretty small issue in the grand scale of things. Combining a relatively small amount of defective product with the very impossible task of inspection, this is absolutely the kind of defect a company cannot really know about in advance.

Third, Wizards is small fraction of Hasbro as a whole, and one that is mostly focused on game design, not actual product creation. Saying “Hasbro is big, this shouldn’t happen” is kind of silly in a way that betrays a lack of knowledge of how companies work. If companies doing tens of billions in revenue can still have product quality issues, a relatively small subsidiary of a company that does not even make the current Fortune 500 is also going to have some issues sometime.

Wizards had a quality issue - it happens, particularly with printing. They acknowledged the issue right away and are working on plans to try and make up with the community. That is hardly “pathetic” - it is just having something bad happen and dealing with it in the best way you can.

There are lots of times I think Wizards deserves flack, but the only thing “pathetic” I have seen around this issue are the players who are attacking Wizards when (a) this is something that is not really their fault and would have been nearly impossible to control for and (b) Wizards immediately came out the gate with a “we are sorry this happened, we want to make it right, and we’re trying to work on something to do that.”

I am not going to bother watching your YouTube video, since YouTube is generally a cesspool that is programmed to promote outrage and lies over truth.

So, let us take a step back and deal with a pretty simple reality: There was a mistake with Lorwyn, but that mistake was almost certainly not Wizards fault, and anyone trying to ascribe blame to Wizards or making comments like “they don’t care” is either intentionally being malicious or ignorant of how the card printing industry works.

To help clear things up:

Wizards of the Coast designs cards, but they do not print or package cards. That is outsourced to third parties who own printing companies. Wizards has had a bit of a hard time with this recently - COVID a supply chain issues really, really hurt the printing industry in a way that they are still recovering from. Industry wide issues, combined with historical print issues (Pringled cards, for example), mean Wizards has been having a bit of difficulty finding third parties that can deliver product at their scale, and has been trying out new printing groups. This has resulted in issues between Wizards and third party printers both within Magic an D&D.

Which gets us to Lorwyn. Here, Wizards was not the one who messed up - they sent their information over to the printer/packager, and the printer/packager put the wrong cards in the wrong packs.

By the time the product was delivered to Wizards, it would have already been sealed. From the outside, everything almost certainly looked good to go, and there would be no way for Wizards to know there was a problem unless they cracked open (an thus ruined) a bunch of sealed product.

Now, Wizards almost certainly do this for some of the product, but the issue very well could have flown under the radar with the kind of small random selection typical of this kind of product delivery.

Short story, some other company else messed up on a product that, by its very randomized nature, cannot be fully inspected. The printer are the folks who deserve blame, not Wizards.

In the future, please use the Rules Q&A section of this site when you have questions about rules, cards, or card interactions. That section of the site has some additional functionalities, such as linking your questions to the cards at issues to help anyone with similar questions. You can also mark a question there as answered to indicate your matter is resolved.

I have moved this thread and marked an answer on your behalf as a correct answer was given.

Here is a Reddit post made by the artist showing the various stages of their creation of the art alleged to be AI. The artist explicitly requested this information be shared as widely as possible to clear their name of the malicious attacks against them.

theNeroTurtle - The rumors of TMNT having AI are false - the artist came out and provided information showing their work and design process, confirming that they were not created by AI. This was firmly a case of some people didn’t like the art, so they just lazily accused it of being AI without any actual evidence.

TappedOut will not tolerate misinformation on this point - it is not fair to slander an artist just because you do not like their style. That kind of misinformation that could hurt another’s career is against the site’s terms and conditions and could result in action being taken against you account.

——

Moving on to your substantive point about the game’s modern art not caring about appearance, we are literally in the middle of a spoiler season that has been absolutely full of gorgeous art, much of which is a clear callback to early Magic artists like Rebecca Guay. Every single day this past week, Wizards disproved this argument.

Between this and the fact that you missed the fact Wizards got a big name author to publish an upcoming Magic book, I am questioning whether your issue might be that you are not paying that much attention to the game? Or are only paying attention to the negatives, while ignoring the fact that Wizards keeps churning out the very things you profess you like about the old school game.

As this thread’s creator has posted a new, superseding thread on this topic, I am closing this one.

The new thread can be found here.

When UB first started, I was not a fan - it probably did not help that the first UB release was for The Walking Dead, a franchise whose popularity I find inexplicable.

But then Warhammer came out, and I started out skeptical. But then I got to talking with some of my friends and fellow folks at the game store. Their excitement for the product was infectious and started to change my mind.

That was followed by Lord of the Rings, the first UB set for a property I was a fan of (talking “full set of first editions of the core five books” level of fan). Wizards knocked it out of the park and created one of the best designed sets in the game’s history. Mechanically fun, both for draft and constructed (and though it had its broken cards, so did every other set designed as a Modern Horizons product). Fantastic art direction with some beautiful cards. Great adaptation of the characters and story.

And it was pretty clear going to the game store I was not the only person excited - the game store was packed with players, many of whom were either new or drawn back into the game (some after a decade or more) because of LotR. At which point I realized “okay, maybe fantasy-based UB products like 40k and LotR are not so bad at all.”

Marvel again raised my suspicions, given its distinctly different vibe than traditional fantasy (though I would posture that superheroes are still a fantasy genera). But one of my best friends and his toddler were extremely excited about seeing cards (or at least art for the younger one), of characters like Black Panther and Miles Morales. It is pretty hard to stay mad at something that is bringing a big smile to a toddler’s face.

After my own journey, I’ve sort of come to the conclusion that “purity of the game” is just another form of gatekeeping the hobby. At this point, the near totality of players I interact with who are militantly anti-UB are the worse members of our community - the kind of player who only cares for their own happiness and often is exclusionary, both of other players and, far too often, in other aspects of life. Conversely, nearly every person I have seen who is excited about a particular UB product is radiating warmth and delight. I would much rather have that second kind of player in the hobby than many of the first. This is a game, and the primary purpose is having fun - not gatekeeping, not respecting some esoteric concept of “purity”, having fun.

——

That is my personal journey into acceptance of UB, and realization that maybe I was kind of being a jerk when I was more adamantly against it. But let us now talk about some realities.

Magic is doing better than ever. More people are playing than at any point in the game’s history. Sets continue to set records. Game stores have largely gotten out of the financial slump they had been in for well over a decade. And the data heavily indicates that UB is a major driver of this - the best selling sets of all time have been things like Final Fantasy and LotR.

Contrary to assertions, the data seems to show UB is doing exactly what it should be - bringing people into the game who are interested in that property, and then showing them the game is enjoyable enough that they stick around.

Next, let us address the “UB is mechanically bad” argument - an argument I would suggest is complete fiction. LotR and Final Fantasy are both regarded as some of the most mechanically interesting and fun sets in the game’s history - it is not just the IP that drove the sales, but the fact they were legitimately a blast to play in draft and had interesting cards to build around.

And, sure, Spider-Man was a mechanical mess - but that is not because it is UB, but because it was originally a smaller set they pivoted on design to a larger one, resulting in some messy and rushed card designs.

And it is not like universes within are immune to flops. Innistrad Midnight Hunt. Thunder Junction. Murders at Karlov Manor. Aetherdrift. Sets failing is not a universes beyond problem - the best sets recently have been UB sets, and some of the worst have been UW. Sometimes designs just do not work out.

——

To conclude, is UB destroying the game in the short term? No. The overwhelming data suggests it is not only popular and helping drive the game’s sales, but that it is actually driving an interest in the Universes Within lore.

Is it resulting in poorly designed sets? Not anymore than Universes Within, particularly with the string of UW flops we have had recently.

Will it destroy the game long term? I do not have a crystal ball, but there is no indication it will, and even some indication it will result in greater interest in the game and its lore long-term.

And did it take me a while to reach a stage of acceptance where I realized maybe there are more important things in the world than telling people “your way of having fun is polluting the purity of my fun?” Sure - and I am much happier for it. Magic is a game, a hobby, a distraction from some of the truly horrific things I see at work. I can either choose to get upset about something silly like “the game’s purity” or I can go out with my friends, turn some cards sideways, and have a laugh.

I know what I see as the clear right answer.

I think it is very clear that you have no intention of changing your mind - hardly surprising given the kind of person you are emulating with the framing of this thread. The fact that you continue to confuse SLs with UB - even when explicitly (and obviously) pointed out that not all SLs are UB and plenty of SLa are in-universe prints - is kind of proof that you’re not actually comprehending pretty basic points about the topic.

Ultimately, though, if real world 3rd century Chinese historical figures in a completely non-magical set do not break your verisimilitude (as have been in the game since ‘99), but fantasy, magical New York does, well, that is your choice. I think it is a silly choice, and one that seems like manufactured outrage - but I suppose you are entitled to making yourself angry over something so utterly inconsequential as policing the way others have fun.

RiotRunner789 - I do not think the numbers actually reflect the fears you are raising. Wizards has consistently been clear that LGSes are not just an important part of their funding stream, but the overwhelming majority component of it (I want to say it was over 80%, but it has been a while since I read their press release on it). This is hardly surprising - it is game stores where people go to draft, and draft which drives the largest component of Magic sales.

Protecting LGSes is a large part of why Wizards consistently runs things like LGS only promos; why they have done tests allowing LGSes to buy SLs through separate systems from players (so they can flip them for a profit). Considering, on the whole, Magic has driven a reversal of the LGS struggles of the mid 2010s, I think it is fair to say SLs are not really impacting the currently growing LGS industry.

Your counterpoint about SLs is completely without basis in reality, and it seems you are confusing SLa with UB. Those are two separate issues - some SLs are UB, but SLs, as a concept, exist independently and must be evaluated separately.

Small batch cards have been around since the beginning of the game - event promos, book promos, judge promos, bonus sheets, etc. SL drops are a continuation of that trend - releasing a couple batches of cards every now and then, many of which are directly inspired by the lore and showcasing popular cards in new lights, does not harm the lore at all.

Your position on SLs seems to be based entirely on some misplaced anger and not any semblance of reality.

I also do not buy your argument that UB somehow pollutes the “lore” of playing the game. Let’s acknowledge a simple reality - the fundamental concept of UB has been part of this game since 1993 and the game’s first expansion of Arabian Nights. 1999’s Portal Three Kingdoms was likewise effectively a UB set.

Furthermore, while the official lore has always been “we sit around playing as planeswalkers” that lore (a) has become less prevalent, particularly since the foundational change to the game’s understanding of planeswalkers with the Mending and (b) I am willing to bet the vast majority of players kind of ignore that “lore” when playing. Speaking for myself with decades of playing, I have never once seen someone reference that lore in an actual game - it is more one of those historical tidbits that sometimes folks bring up.

The fact that some of the “magic” might be gone from the game is a legitimate complaint - but that does not mean you are just pushing cards around. It is still a game with strategy where you have fun with your friends - and if you want to play pretend and say their planeswalker selves summoned real world characters… you can do so… like people have been doing since ‘93.

Your pay to win statement has no relation to any other point you are raising and has been a part of the game from the beginning, so it is not without any merit.

All told, your entire argument stems on a misunderstanding of the game’s history and an attempt to preserve a purity that didn’t even exist in 1997. Your post, accordingly, seems fundamentally flawed. Instead of nitpicking at the game and trying to preserve something that hasn’t existed since ABRU, maybe just have fun with it…?

There is no legitimate reason to be against secret lairs, other than perhaps some of the formatting being hard to read (which is a card design issue, not an issue with the concept of secret lairs). For those who want the cards, they get access to cards that are often under retail value. For those who do not, they can ignore them, and maybe capitalize on them by getting versions of those cards for a bit cheaper as supply increases.

Nobody loses anything with Secret Lairs - and, overall, they are a mutual win for Wizards and players alike.

Regarding Universes Beyond, there are some reasons to dislike the proliferation of them - mostly the feeling that they devalue the core elements of the game by diluting Magic lore with other IPs. I know this was my initial impression of them.

But I have changed my mind a bit on UB. Why? When Warhammer came out, I spoke with my LGS owner, who is a huge Magic fan and a huge 40k fan. His excitement at seeing his two favorite hobbies mixed was infectious. That has been the case for every UB so far. My own happiness seeing some LotR characters. The happiness of one of my best friend’s three year olds seeing a Miles Morales card. Maybe I do not care for every UB - but I know someone out there does, and I can be happy for other people.

I prefer Magic IP, but I also have a basic level of empathy where I can accept it makes others happy and that is fine. Frankly, I would rather play with someone who is having fun and excited about their cards, even if their cards are UB, than play with pretty much every “I am militantly anti UB” person I have ever met. The first is having fun with the game; the second is far too often trying to hurt others’ fun.

This morning, a large number of cards were allegedly leaked from the upcoming Lorwyn set.

As a reminder, TappedOut’s official policy is Leaks = Ban There should be no discussion of these leaks, including no images or text posted from the leaks, or no directing individuals to places they can find the leaks, until a card is officially spoiled. Let us all do our part to respect players who do not want a truncated spoiler season.