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|Duel Decks: Jace vs. Vraska (DDM)||Common|
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Target player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
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Thought Scour Discussion
5 days ago
Rabid_Wombat - Modern Mill is a burn deck, you're just burning their library, rather than their life total. Let's look at how a typical mill game plays out, and you will see how, despite not attacking life, it is an aggro playstyle, rather than control:
Turn 1: Land + Hedron Crab Turn 2: Land + Glimpse the Unthinkable + Hedron Crab trigger for 13 mill for turn. Turn 3: Land + Fraying Sanity + Hedron Crab trigger + Fraying Sanity trigger for 6 mill for turn; 19 total. Turn 4: Land + Breaking + Mind Sculpt + Hedron Crab trigger + Fraying Sanity trigger for 36 mill for turn, 55 mill total, and a victory on next draw once you factor in an opening hand.
To pull off this turn 4 win consistently, your deck is going to be running 4x Hedron crabs, 4x Fraying Sanity ; 20x "burn" spells ( Glimpse the Unthinkable , Mind Funeral , Breaking / Entering ; Mind Sculpt and Archive Trap ), 8x draw spells ( Thought Scour and Visions of Beyond ). That leaves you 20 coloured lands and 4x Field of Ruin (to force Archive Trap ), making a round 60.
Persistent Petitioners is worse than every single card on that list. There is no room for four copies, let alone more. As such, it will make no difference in mill's Modern viability.
But wait, you say, what about mill as a control deck?
Control's goal is to attack valuable resources, leaving you in a better position for victory. The library, which mill attacks, is not a valuable resource--until actualized, those are just hidden cards with no intrinsic value. There is little synergy between these two strategies, leaving mill-control a vastly inferior option to mill-burn. 60 "life" is a lot more than 20, making it far more likely that you run out of control resources before your opponent runs out of cards.
Even in such a deck, you would still not want Persistent Petitioners , as it would detract from your absolutely necessary control cards and high-value mill cards.
With regards to Ensnaring Bridge , Darkshadow327 accurately surmised my point. The only benefit Petitioners provide to mill is a mid-sized blocker. Ensnaring Bridge is far better against aggressive creature-based decks, making it superior to Petitioners for defence.
Just like in a burn deck, you do not want to mainboard Ensnaring Bridge --it's only really useful against hyper aggressive decks that risk overwhelming you before you can finish milling. Against slower decks, those three mana would be better spent going for a faster kill.
The reason mill doesn't shine in Modern is because, as much as it pains me to say this, it is a bad archetype. It's burn, but you're attacking a 60-life resource, rather than a 20-life one. Further, your "burn" spells can only attack an opponent, whereas Lightning Bolt can take out an enemy in a pinch. With regards to your point about mitigation of burn vs. mitigation of mill, many decks do not run lifegain, and a good burn deck
Darkshadow327 - one correction to your post, you can mill for 12 the turn you've fielded four copies of Petitioners. As there is no symbol in the mill-12 ability, summoning sickness does not apply.
6 days ago
Looks good, but then again I wasn't expecting any less of you.
Now, I might be missing something, but there are a few cards I'm not sure about;
Coldsteel Heart - it's not a bad card, it's probably the best tapped rock. But in 2c, without a rock hoser that demands a critical mass of rocks (PE or Isochron), without obvious color-hungry plays on t4, idk if you need this one. Also it's 2 life with AdNaus, which is worse than 1 or 0.
Whispering Madness - is there an obvious use other than wheeling I'm missing? Bc 4 mana for a second copy of Windfall seems meh.
Talisman of Dominance - an obvious inclusion in UB if you ask me.
Careful Study - a nice way to dig 2 cards deep, albeit at -1 and at sorcery speed, and a cantrip that opens up nice doomsday piles
manabase - I have a few neat lands that I won't be using on the next tournament ( Bloodstained Mire , Sunken Ruins , Underground River , Drowned Catacomb ...), so I can borrow them if you're interested
It's your deck though. So ultimately you know what works or what doesn't work in here better than I do.
1 week ago
So far in testing, Verity Circle has performed quite well. I'm only running it as 1 of.
It's not a turn 3 play by any means, it's more of a turn 10 play when you can fully utilize it's potential. When people want to attack first to bait out your Cryptics, this fills the shoes of a psuedo cryptic quite nice, taps their creature(s) and draws you a card while allowing you to keep your counter in hand for main phase 2. In addition, something I didn't initially realize you can Opt > Miracle Terminus > Tap their creature/draw a card in response.
Now as far as the U/W discussion in this thread, which I'm quite enjoying, here are my thoughts.
I don't like Logic Knot, been very unhappy with it in every deck I've ran it in. It can be a dead card a lot of the time. If I go turn 1, tapped Colonnade, turn 2 Island, Mana Leak is fully operational where Logic Knot is fully dependent on the opponent Thoughtseizeing me and not taking it, and if they do that, they're probably not going to play into it unless their plan is to get the counters out of the way. Sure it can be good late game but I prefer more early game interaction (2x Spell Pierce, 1x Spell Snare) since the late game is where U/W Control shines.
I find Glacial Fortress clunky and don't want it to be stuck in my opening hand. T1 Colonnade, T2 Fortress is just not the business. I can see the value of it if I faced Burn a lot. I prefer the singleton Mystic Gate over Glacial Fortress though. The 4 shocks haven't caused any issues.
1 week ago
Now I have been digging through w/u control a lot and I can say I don't think I'll ever see a constant exact 75 and that can simply be because of how control functions unless your decks are for mtgo it's unlikely your decks are tuned to fight the same meta, if 4/5 rounds of the tournament you see 60 copies of grapeshot and 3 creatures I'm sure a version with mainboard leylines and no board wipes would perform a lot better.
Now settle is good for w/u control because it functions at instant speed like most of our interaction and can cause opponents to 2nd guess what we're holding up, the problem with it is humans has freebooter to see our hands and exalted triggers allow the vial decks to turn settle into a 4 cmc path.
oust is good for being a way to get under thalia tax for targeted removal it also plays well with how often w/u control can make people shuffle along with natural fetch land use by opponents.
Azorius charm is good for it's versatility, though I do agree it's probably too slow and honestly probably would work best for a more midrange w/u where all 3 choices can be viable
in matchups where you need to miracle terminus jace is often too slow anyway, cycling gets under thalia tax and you often have to still pray for that natural miracle.
Mana Leak functions better than knot in meta where rip could be a mainboard viable option or where early game counters are more important (though it is likely not needed when there's mainboard spell piece).
2 weeks ago
very cool idea. I've tinkered in mill for years, and i love how you're incorporating green into the decklist.
i honestly dont have much to say as far as definite changes, other than a couple tweaks that could help speed up your win condition.
Sphinx's Tutelage is a slight improvement to Psychic Corrosion. apparently it's worth something now, but i have a feeling if you ask around people at your lgs, people will have them just lying in bulk boxes at home.
if you find a couple bucks to put into this, your deck begs to have Hedron Crab in it. it doesnt have defender, but it serves the same purpose, and would accelerate your deck significantly.
you arent running a significant draw package, so i really like Contingency Plan. it's a nod to Taigam's Scheming; a card i've played heavily in different formats, so dont start doubting yourself on that one. it's a good card, and fits your situation perfectly.
a couple things to keep in the back of your head; Thought Scour is decent, and could synergize with a few cards in your deck. If you're ever feeling like you need spot removal, Reality Shift is amazing. a 2/2 means nothing against your walls, and hard exiling something is excessively powerful. plus, it gets one more card out of their deck. last, Wall of Roots seems to fit the bill. could be worth testing
anyway, excited to discuss this with you. very cool idea!
2 weeks ago
Though to answer your problems running the Isochron Scepter Dramatic Reversal combo is a non graveyard combo that probably works out better than putting in more combos that get blown out by the same type of hate. That being said Laboratory Maniac can be pretty good for this deck, think of instead of milling out all your opponents just mill yourself out to win.
You have many combos in this deck, but nearly all of them require the graveyard to function, I would suggest cutting down on the combo numbers and instead run various draw, tutor, or removal effects. Thought Scour Mental Note Gitaxian Probe Fatal Push Mystical Tutor are all ideas.
Now it maybe another graveyard strategy, but why not include Reanimate spells like Animate Dead, you already have the fill your graveyard part down, maybe just include a card like Nezahal, Primal Tide as an option to reanimate and you can play the board more as a heavy control deck while you wait to build the combo.
Finally you are u/b with wheels and you didn't include Notion Thief that alone can win you games.
2 weeks ago
I would honestly recommend blue for this list, Thought Scour and Serum Visions do a ton of work in this deck, but outside of that, Tasigur, the Golden Fang is a big stick like a Gurmag Angler that hits earlier often. I'd drop an Angler for one if you think you'd like it.
+1 on the deck either way, this looks like a blast to pilot!
2 weeks ago
Your deck isn't pure control, rather it is an aggro-control hybrid, which is fine.
Lets deal with the NO (counters) section of a control deck. The first cards I thought of when looking at your deck were Delay, Grimoire Thief and Countersquall but they might be more than you want to spend. Since your using creatures to exile Familiar's Ruse is budget friendly and gives you the chance to recast your creature and exile a new card. Judge's Familiar is a creature and a cheap evasive creature at that, so is probably worth consideration. Perplex Might work as a counter or tutor. Honorable mentions Dawn Charm (fog or conditional counter), Dash Hopes (a black counter, really) and Dissipate. You might want to think about other spells too Thought Scour, Vapor Snag, Appetite for Brains, Castigate and Transgress the Mind...
The creature side of my suggestions is much shorter, first up is two one drops Deadeye Tracker and Mardu Woe-Reaper, they have similar uses essentially sending cards back to exile. For two drops there is Brain Maggot, basically additional copies of Tidehollow Sculler. Now we jump a bit to the control finisher, your using The Eldest Reborn I'd suggest backing that up with Cryptic Serpent and maybe Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Finally Murk Strider is worth consideration as well.
I'm not expecting you to use all of these cards, rather I'm throwing out ideas that might be of use to you. Hopefully this is of help, have fun with your brew.