mtg, mtg cards, magic the gathering, gaming, geeks
Welcome, everyone, to the world's first deck built in the Noble Format. Read on for an explanation of this great and affordable format!
Sounds interesting. How does it work?
Thank you for asking, disembodied voice. First of all, let's talk about...
Noble decks may include:
Regarding rarity, each card's effective rarity is based on the lowest-rarity printing of that card. For example, Oblivion Ring is considered common even though it was printed as uncommon in the Magic 2012 Core Set. Furthermore, a card like Serra Angel that was printed as a rare at one time cannot be used as your Noble card because its lowest rarity printing was uncommon.
Noble is an eternal format, but it can exist in any of the non-eternal formats like Standard or Modern.
Beyond these rules, deck construction is the same as traditional deck construction. Specifically, there is a 60-card minimum, and this includes your 1 rare/mythic, up to 4 uncommons, and 55+ commons.
Sideboarding is optional. You may choose to build a sideboard of up to 15 cards. Any cards contained in your sideboard count towards your overall rarity quotas. For example, if you choose to run 1x Path to Exile in your sideboard, you may only have up to 3 other uncommons anywhere in your deck. No rares or mythic rares are allowed in the sideboard, since only your Noble card is allowed to be rare or mythic rare.
Okay, now how do I play?
Separate your Noble card from the rest of your cards and set it aside. Much like the EDH format, your Noble card begins face down in the Command Zone, where it cannot be interacted with. You may look at your Noble card at any time, and you may cast your Noble card at any time allowed by the standard game rules.
Your Noble card may be cast from the Command Zone as though it were in your hand, and any abilities of your Noble card may be activated from the Command Zone as if the card were in your hand (for example: Suspend, Forecast, Ninjutsu).
Once your Noble card has been cast, it is treated as a normal card, and it cannot be returned to the Command Zone.
Beyond these rules, the game proceeds as any normal game of Magic would. You draw seven cards, mulligan, yadda yadda yadda.
No no no, I want a printable version of the rules.
Wonderful dude mafteechr translated the rules of the format into a calculating and precise set of comprehensive rules designed as a supplement to the Official Comprehensive rules. Download the supplement here: Comprehensive Noble Rules
Noble Variant Comprehensive Rules:
100.1. In the Noble variant, each deck features a rare or mythic rare card as that deck's Noble card. The Noble variant uses all the normal rules for a Magic game, with the following additions.
100.2. Each deck has a card with the rare or mythic rare rarity designated as its Noble card. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself.
100.3. Each Noble deck is subject to the following deck construction rules.
100.3a Each deck must contain a minimum of sixty cards, including its Noble card. There is no maximum deck size; however, you must be able to shuffle your deck with no assistance.
100.3b If a player wishes to use a sideboard, it must contain exactly fifteen cards.
100.3c With the exception of basic land cards, a player's combined deck and sideboard may not contain more than four of any individual card, counted by its English card title equivalent. All cards named Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest are basic.
100.3d A player's combined deck and sideboard must contain exactly one card with either a rare or mythic rare rarity. This card is designated as the deck's Noble card.
100.3e A player's combined deck and sideboard may contain up to four cards with the uncommon rarity.
100.3f The remainder of a player's combined deck and sideboard must only contain cards with the common rarity and basic land cards.
100.4. At the start of the game, each player puts his or her Noble card from his or her deck face down into the command zone. Then each player shuffles the remaining cards of his or her deck so that the cards are in a random order. Those cards become the player's library.
100.5. A player may look at his or her Noble card at any time.
100.6. A player may cast his or her Noble card from the command zone whenever he or she would be able to normally cast their Noble card.
Example: A player's Noble card is Snapcaster Mage. That player may cast Snapcaster Mage from the command zone during his or her opponent's end step, since Snapcaster Mage has flash.
100.6a If a Noble card has the keyword Suspend, then that player may suspend the card from the command zone.
There has to be a Banned List, right?
That's right. Any healthy format requires a banned list, and being an Eternal format with insane combo potential, the list is a bit long. The following cards are Banned in this format:
This list will be updated as new sets release and as cards are "broken". Top decks in this format are expected to win around turn 4. Broken decks that win consistently before turn 4 may demand a ban. If you have reason to disagree with a ban decision, please leave a post below with your reasoning and we will consider updating the list.
What about these questions that I have that may or may not be Frequent?
Q: Do I have to build my deck based on the color identity of my Noble card?
A: No, you may build your deck using any colors.
Q: Why use the Command Zone? Why not just shuffle the Noble card into your library and draw it normally?
A: It wouldn't be much fun to lose if your opponent got their super-powered Noble card in their opening hand while yours waited on the bottom of your library. To take some of the luck out of the equation, the card is available for use from the beginning of the game.
Q: Why doesn't the Noble card go back to the Command Zone if it is destroyed/exiled?
A: Rares and Mythic rares typically have a much higher power level than commons, which make up the bulk of a Noble Deck. Instead of leading to attrition wars based on who has their Noble on the field the most, we felt that it was appropriate to let the Noble card act normally if destroyed or exiled. This allows for graveyard strategies to exist, and doesn't neuter your Disentomb s. It also incentivises you to think about this interaction and include graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus as necessary.
Q: Why is it called the "Noble" format?
A: Well, there's Pauper, which is the lowest of the socioeconomic classes. Then there is Peasant, which is the next step up. A Peasant was a person who worked the land, usually as a farmer. The peasant rented the land from the owner, the Noble, which is sort of the next socioeconomic class up. Now, a Noble is not technically the next socioeconomic class above Peasant, "Yeoman" is. A Yeoman is basically a free Peasant, one who owns their own land. Clearly, "Yeoman" is a terrible name for a format, so "Noble" is the choice!
Q:Is there a Noble website yet?
A: It is in the works. Keep an eye on http://www.noblemtg.com over the coming weeks.
Q: Anything else I need to know?
A: Yeah. Make a deck, and leave it in the comments below!
- 1.11 04/23/2012: Added Crivaro's summary PDF, added mafteechr's comprehensive rules PDF. Updated FAQ.
- 1.10 04/14/2012: Changed format from "5-turn-win" to "4-turn-win".
- 1.04 04/11/2012: Removed Mana Drain and Worldgorger Dragon from the banned list. Added Fluctuator and Glimpse of Nature to the banned list. Edited rules to allow abilities on the Noble Card (eg Suspend, Ninjutsu, Forecast) to be played as if it were in your hand.
- 1.03 04/09/2012: Added Phyrexian Dreadnought and Pyromancer Ascension to the banned list.
- 1.02 04/08/2012: Removed Bloodchief Ascension from banned list. Added Mindcrank to banned list.
- 1.01 04/07/2012: Added Bloodchief Ascension , Ad Nauseam , Splinter Twin , Elemental Mastery , and Strip Mine to the banned list. Updated rules to allow cards with "Suspend" to be cast from the Command Zone. Updated rules to remove references to "Noble Zone", using the Command Zone instead.
- 1.00 04/04/2012: Original rules written, original banned list in place.
The world's first Noble Deck: Noble Avenger
A cheap dude who we can build around, and who can finish off opponents who aren't careful.
Your opponent has an annoying dude? Force feed him to the Avenger.
A good way to gain a million life when you attack with the Avenger.
Once the Avenger gets big, let's face it, they want to block him. Get the advantage!
Obvious protection for the Avenger.
Commons: Lots of tapping power to make the avenger huge. First strikers for defense or offensive evasion. Haunted Fengraf to return the Avenger if he dies. Blue in the side to bring control to the second and third matches.
$6.70 + $2.59 shipping = $9.29 Total Cost (@ TCGPlayer after cart optimization)
Okay, so I admit this decklist might be pretty bad, but I hope it shows a bit of the flavor possible in this new format! Most of all, thank you for taking the time to read this and for making TappedOut the best MtG community!
|Discarding NobilityMass of NobilityNoble Paladindeck:noble-pyromancerNoble EntomberNoble Fluctuatornoble: burningAll Slivers are Nobilitydeck:overbeing-of-nobilitydeck:regen-irritate-nobleFeed The NobleNoble HumilityThe Noble EldraziBeat my Meat (1.5 Noble)deck:over-the-top-noble-15-1deck:noble-counters-win-againdeck:noble-dorandeck:noble-life-gainNoble Delver of WarNoble DrawNoble Equipment SpamNoble FlashbackLegend of the Skrill Tamer Noble RDW BloodthirstNoble GolemsNoble OversightNoblesongTraining PiliThe Noble PhytohydraNoble DemonsNiv-Mizzet (Noble)Stuffy NobleMighty Ramping Noble EmrakulNoble Dark DepthsNoble ErayoNoble Modular AffinityNoble Visions of DreadNoble Yawgmoth's WillRofellos the NobleThe Noble SolidarityNoble BurnPast in Noble FlamesNoble AbolisherWhy Eldrazi can be Nasty|
|NobletogBlazing fast Infect NobleGreater Gargadon NobleCountertop NobleLimited Resources NobleNoble Loamdeck:noble-angelic-humansdeck:badpauperdeck:be-silent-or-be-silenceddeck:electric-furnacedeck:for-die-you-willdeck:noble-powerdeck:pauper-chastic-flowdeck:worth-any-sacrificeNoble Knight of the Reliquarydeck:nobles-laboratoryLAND NOBLENoble Loamdeck:noble-elf-deckdeck:tempered-steel-nobleNoble's PoisonEnergy Field-Noble formatNoble StormHer nobility tappnessNoble Tokensthe disgusting but sadly noble goblinsNoble MadnessNoble Mondronen ShamanNoble: Armament MasterNoble: Elvish ArchdruidNoble Format: RDWNoble: OmnathEssence of the NobleBurning NobleNoble: Block this!Noble: Ward of bonesSliver Nobility|
Okay, I purged all of the old comments so that our browsers don't give up on rendering the page anymore. Sorry for the lack of context to these replies. Please read the rules and FAQ above before posting!
@KorApprentice: We'll keep the 7-card starting hand size then. In addition to my previous reason for this (mana should be the limiting factor, not cards), starting with a 6-card hand makes for difficult mulligans because almost no one would be willing to use a land as their Noble.
: You're right, Mana Drain doesn't need to be banned. I've removed it from the banned list. Like Kor said previously Sol Ring provides too ridiculous acceleration and opens up turn 1 winds. Strip Mine was banned because it would be nearly impossible to deal with if Crucible of Worlds was the Noble, but I would reconsider if there is a counter-strategy that I've overlooked. What does everyone think of unbanning Time Walk? Is it too easy to abuse with cards like Mystic Retrieval, Izzet Chronarch, Izzet Guildmage, Mnemonic Wall, etc? Or should it be un-banned too? @DamenPulse: I'm definitely creating a website. Crivaro has already created some awesome graphics for the site. Either me or squire1
should be able to code it up fairly quickly. Just looking for a good web host right now. I'll keep you in mind if I have anything that we need help with. Thanks for taking this to your local store, let us know how it goes! @Lectrys: Since Chrome Mox is a rare it's a bit less useful than it is in other formats, but if you think of a deck that can completely abuse it to win before turn 5, please let me know. For Griselbrand I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. Since he costs 7 it would take a ton of Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals to dump him early, but I can see him being broken. As good as Past in Flames is, I'm starting to wonder if I should ban cards like Lotus Petal and Rite of Flame instead. That way, Past in Flames can stick around and I might be able to unban some other cards like Pyromancer Ascension and Pyromancer's Swath. Thoughts? As for red burn cards being too fast, they aren't operating in a vacuum and there are plenty of ways to stabilize against RDW-types, even with commons. Until this format is stabilized a bit I think I have to leave RDW alone, though I recognize its strength. ...continued
April 11, 2012
@DamenPulse: I'm definitely creating a website. Crivaro has already created some awesome graphics for the site. Either me or squire1 should be able to code it up fairly quickly. Just looking for a good web host right now. I'll keep you in mind if I have anything that we need help with. Thanks for taking this to your local store, let us know how it goes!
@Lectrys: Since Chrome Mox is a rare it's a bit less useful than it is in other formats, but if you think of a deck that can completely abuse it to win before turn 5, please let me know. For Griselbrand I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. Since he costs 7 it would take a ton of Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals to dump him early, but I can see him being broken. As good as Past in Flames is, I'm starting to wonder if I should ban cards like Lotus Petal and Rite of Flame instead. That way, Past in Flames can stick around and I might be able to unban some other cards like Pyromancer Ascension and Pyromancer's Swath. Thoughts? As for red burn cards being too fast, they aren't operating in a vacuum and there are plenty of ways to stabilize against RDW-types, even with commons. Until this format is stabilized a bit I think I have to leave RDW alone, though I recognize its strength. ...continued
As good as Past in Flames is, I'm starting to wonder if I should ban cards like Lotus Petal and Rite of Flame instead. That way, Past in Flames can stick around and I might be able to unban some other cards like Pyromancer Ascension and Pyromancer's Swath. Thoughts? As for red burn cards being too fast, they aren't operating in a vacuum and there are plenty of ways to stabilize against RDW-types, even with commons. Until this format is stabilized a bit I think I have to leave RDW alone, though I recognize its strength. ...continued
@mandroid: I don't like the idea of treating the Noble card as if it were in your hand. Mainly, my reasoning is that targeted discard, especially 1 CMC discard (Thoughtseize, Despise, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, etc) would become far too overpowered. With Thoughtseize in particular, paying 2 life to rip your opponent's plans to shreds is unfair.
Blazing Shoal is good but is it really over-the-top? Just about every color has counter-strategies to it. Seal of Fire is particularly brutal against this deck. On the other hand, the deck just sucks to play against and I don't think it would be missed. Thoughts? @Crivaro: Thanks to squire1
and yeaGO! for their support and for making Noble a selectable format! These guys rock! yeaGO! gave me permissions to edit the format, so I'll get the banned list in place ASAP. I like the ability to be able to play your Noble card from the Command Zone as if it were in your hand. I already had a suspend-specific ruling, but I think a broader rule makes sense. I am going to re-write that rule to allow your Noble to be played as if it were in your hand (but discard can't target it). I don't like the ability for the player to choose where their Noble starts -- it opens up too many insane graveyard strategies (Retrace, Dredge), and I'd have to write rules about which zone it is allowed to start in (not in play, for example). Overall it is a good idea, but I think it's one that should be left out of the official ruling. If casual players agree to do this, I have no problem with that. @blink: Good call on Glimpse of Nature. It is now banned. @TristanTaylorsVoice: "This is a really cool idea, especially for new players to get started. They can take their rare and their new pile of cards and make something meaningful out of it. I appreciate someone making a cool format for casual play when people can't afford commander decks or just started." -- This was exactly what I intended from the format. Thanks for the recognition! ...continued
April 11, 2012
@Crivaro: Thanks to squire1 and yeaGO! for their support and for making Noble a selectable format! These guys rock! yeaGO! gave me permissions to edit the format, so I'll get the banned list in place ASAP.
I like the ability to be able to play your Noble card from the Command Zone as if it were in your hand. I already had a suspend-specific ruling, but I think a broader rule makes sense. I am going to re-write that rule to allow your Noble to be played as if it were in your hand (but discard can't target it). I don't like the ability for the player to choose where their Noble starts -- it opens up too many insane graveyard strategies (Retrace, Dredge), and I'd have to write rules about which zone it is allowed to start in (not in play, for example). Overall it is a good idea, but I think it's one that should be left out of the official ruling. If casual players agree to do this, I have no problem with that.
@blink: Good call on Glimpse of Nature. It is now banned. @TristanTaylorsVoice: "This is a really cool idea, especially for new players to get started. They can take their rare and their new pile of cards and make something meaningful out of it. I appreciate someone making a cool format for casual play when people can't afford commander decks or just started." -- This was exactly what I intended from the format. Thanks for the recognition! ...continued
@TristanTaylorsVoice: "This is a really cool idea, especially for new players to get started. They can take their rare and their new pile of cards and make something meaningful out of it. I appreciate someone making a cool format for casual play when people can't afford commander decks or just started." -- This was exactly what I intended from the format. Thanks for the recognition!
@rrmaclac: Regarding the restriction of 1 rare/4 uncommons, it's to restrict power level and foster creativity, as well as to sharply limit the cost of any given deck. Upping the number of allowed rares/uncommons can certainly be fun for some players, but if you've been following the conversation in this thread you can see that many cards have already been "broken" allowing wins in turns 1-3. Allowing any number more of rares/uncommons would likely cause many more cards to need to be banned for power level reasons.
The choice to allow any kind of card to be the noble card is to avoid unnecessary restrictions and foster more creative strategies.
@l0ki: I personally wanted to avoid having both a restricted list and a banned list to avoid unnecessary confusion, particularly amongst new players. However if the community agrees with creating a separate restricted list I would certainly change the rule. Thoughts?
I banned the moxes because of the free acceleration they provide, worried that storm decks and many combo decks would abuse them too easily. Is this the wrong call?
I agree to remove Worldgorger Dragon from the banned list. It's legal now. @theonyc: Unfortunately Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is currently unplayable in this format. Sorry! @Conphas: Great idea to make a rules PDF! We'll start working on one after the rules and bannings have settled down a bit. @Minousmancer: I don't think anyone who just got here is going to read all 300+ comments , so I don't think they'll be missed too terribly much. I've tried to address issues in the rules, and I'm updating the FAQ a bit.... man, after all of those comments I need a beer! Thanks again everyone, you are great!
April 11, 2012
@theonyc: Unfortunately Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is currently unplayable in this format. Sorry! @Conphas: Great idea to make a rules PDF! We'll start working on one after the rules and bannings have settled down a bit. @Minousmancer: I don't think anyone who just got here is going to read all 300+ comments , so I don't think they'll be missed too terribly much. I've tried to address issues in the rules, and I'm updating the FAQ a bit.... man, after all of those comments I need a beer! Thanks again everyone, you are great!
@Conphas: Great idea to make a rules PDF! We'll start working on one after the rules and bannings have settled down a bit.
@Minousmancer: I don't think anyone who just got here is going to read all 300+ comments , so I don't think they'll be missed too terribly much. I've tried to address issues in the rules, and I'm updating the FAQ a bit.... man, after all of those comments I need a beer! Thanks again everyone, you are great!
That won't work, training grounds doesn't make anything free. Currently trying to work out a combo with TG and Izzet Guildmage, here's the beta build:
This seems pretty not broken. It requires like 4 pieces to kill and one of them is a creature. Because it aims to use ramp to fuel infinite mana it's hard to combo off over an opponent's answer - essentially you have enough mana to combo over or you don't, but the fact that rituals are used means that there's a critical window where responses are possible.
Note that it's not tuned or anything yet, it needs ritual ramping.
About Lotus Petal:
Most of the decks I've built so far to try to break open a kill under turn 5 have abused Lotus Petal:
Countertop Noble (this one soft-locks, not kills)
I would say that if you can ban Lotus Petal and unban other cards as a result that would be a better ban choice according to my personal philosophy: ban as few cards as possible while trying to attain maximum affect from the ban.
Also if you want help on the coding site I know a bit about mysql and php and html and whatnot if you need someone to build database queries or whatever else.
How so? The only thing I see potentially problematic with it is the fact that it's an amazing hard counter and ramp in the same card, so it's probably overpowered. Honestly, this is so much stronger than the next best uncommon counter Remand, and Remand is amazing.
Actually mandroid what it does is it makes his untap ability (which adds a mana) cost one mana. Adding the "tap to deal damage" makes this happen: Tap deal a damage, pay one to untap (float that mana), then tap it to deal another damage use the floating mana to untap adding another mana. This combo is truly infinite.
@vishnarg and mandroid, the thing about mana drain, is that it is not completely overpowered (at least in this format) where the amount of ramp it gives in a blue deck will not be as usefull, as say having an isochron scepter with which you may imprint counterspell or something. if anything the scepter is broken.
Ah, I see now, thanks for clarifying that. How fast does that come out consistently? Seems quick but difficult to find and stick the pieces.
Ultimately, I think that both of these combo decks aren't consistent enough to warrent a banning - they rely on one specific creature that has to stick, and with the plethora of quality removal and counterspells I really don't see this becoming something that's an out of control rollercoaster.
We might need to reconsider whether it's reasonable to make this a "turn-5 format". Unless we want to ban every Lightning Bolt variant, we need to accept the fact that burn decks clock out around turn 4. Similar, pauper Storm decks can make it happen around turns 3 or 4 most of the time. Unless we see combo decks killing consistently on turn 3, I think we should start playing our best Noble decks against each other.
I suspect that in a developed Noble meta, Mental Misstep would be nuts. It taunts Burn and Storm, which I predict will be pretty close to Tier 1 unless they get hit by a variety of bans.
I don't think Misstep should be banned, though. It'll merely become a very good card.
Ah, something btw: I love how Noble evolves it's own archetypes even at this point! I can see how Training Grounds and Blazing Shoal could become decks to beat. And even nicer is the fact that decks to beat are creature-heavy. To me it sounds like a format where everything is playable without focusing to much on control-elements and things. Maybe they are combo-heavier than other formats (is it, really?) but there are easy solutions for every problem. Just an opinion based on a thought.
Okay everyone, let's sit down (metaphorically of course) and put our minds together. When we started Noble, we decided to aim to make it a "5-turn format", where the best decks win on turn 5. This was to create a game where both players feel like they were active participants and had a chance to interact with the game. Over the past week, we've seen many cards become broken allowing for turn 1-4 wins, and this has led to a large banned list.
We're starting to feel that the banned list is too large. After all, no one wants to think of a great idea for a deck just to have it blocked by a banned list.
We could partially counteract this by making the format a "4-turn format". This would allow us to unban certain cards such as Splinter Twin and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Moreover it would allow us to not ban several other cards. Personally, I feel that making Noble a 4-turn format is the right decision at this point. It still allows each player time to enact strategies and interact with their opponent, and it will make for a more manageable banned list. It may even be necessary to go a step further and make it a "3-turn format", which I am not a fan of but it may simply be the correct choice given the number of strategies that can win on turn 3.
April 12, 2012
It may even be necessary to go a step further and make it a "3-turn format", which I am not a fan of but it may simply be the correct choice given the number of strategies that can win on turn 3.
graft - turn 4 is reasonable. IMO we should bend to what the format determines is the correct kill turn. If monored burn dictates through lightning bolt variants that turn 4 is dead, then we shouldn't be banning all of the LB variants just to enforce this predetermined notion that turn 5 is the kill threshold. In reality, MRB will probably not kill on turn 4 consistently, as most people will gladly trade removal for Goblin Guide, and there are counterspells, disruption, etc. This doesn't mean that Splinter Twin necessarily needs unbanning however - if the deck is so strong that other decks have a hard time interacting with it and stopping the combo it may still need the banhammer unless you're okay with a little bit of format warping (it probably wouldn't be much, just MRB being honest and including Flame Slash and forcing black decks to main 2-3 more copies of Doom Blade)
Also, have another look at my BS deck, I made a couple of comments regarding the power level and history of BS decks in multiple formats.
40 cards would seriously increase the consistency of many combo decks, including my BS infect. Without the need for the cycling cards main that deck isn't nearly as weak against burn strategies. Also that idea helps aggro & control strategies much less than combo, as they get no real benefit from having less cards in their decks.
What this format doesn't need is more support for combo, combo decks already have made an incredible showing in decks built by people hoping to break open the format.
Again about mana drain: Sure, not that great. I didn't want an Ulamog's Crusher on turn 4 or a Mulldrifter for U anyways.
About the Scepter: It's almost certainly broken. Free LB every turn? Sure. Even something innocuous like Gitaxian Probe turns into a monster on the Scepter, drawing tons of cards. This thing is probably format-warping at the very least. I dunno about banning though, seems about on the same power level as decks which insist on storming out on turns 3-5. This will probably just help what I see as a future standard in this format: maining 2-3 Disenchant effects. So many Nobles so far have been enchantments/artifacts that it's nuts. Since they're usually hard to remove since decks don't main Disenchant effects usually I can see that fact pushing most decks towards maining a couple, and those effects will definitely be standard sideboard material - many decks will probably funciton at less than optimal playing capacity if their Noble is dead to Naturalize
Example/reason why forty cards would be a bust:
Take this deck: deck:pauper-chastic-flow, now let's make it forty cards...
Unless your neck was solid Blue with 4xCounterspell, 4xForce of Wills, 4xFoil, 4xDispel then some sort of 'Mill'ing option you're more than likely going to lose, all the decks would most likely focus on burn and the field/meta would become stagnant.
WOW, what a beating. That combo is nuts, and exactly why I stated that stuff like Bramblecrush will become staples of the format.
Also, this is done: Training Grounds Noble
Not meant to be broken, just a reasonable combo deck. If anyone has suggestions which put this one over teh top plz tell me or just post a decklist which would warrent the banning of TG, or Izzet Guildmage potentially (only if there's another degenerate combo using him, which I haven't found yet)
Is mill even strong enough here? What turn do you usually mill someone out assuming you're just solo testing? Ultimately Tome Scour is 5/60 cards, or 1/12 their deck. LB for the same CMC takes out 1/7 of their life, so I'm skeptical about the ability of mill to kill someone who isn't playing Loam.
I think the real problem is Training Grounds. Izzet and Pili are just 2 things you can abuse with it, but I'm sure there is more out there (which would also be banned, and so on). Too bad, I really like Training Grounds. But: The dream isn't dead. Everyone loves this things can win turn 4 with Heartstone.
Take a look at some of my Noble decks if you want to look at competitive decks in the format. Though, about 5 of those decks are banned, so familiarize yourself with the Ban List above before you start building. You can find a list of Noble decks in comment #1 and 2 above!
Unless this isn't current TG isn't banned in legacy:
About the turn 3 TG wins: They all rely on an X/2 creature so far (and those creatures don't have functional reprints to go to 8 copies of the combo enabler). Is that really too much for decks in the format to handle? Red black and blue all have efficient answers for it at 1 or 2, and white has arrest/O-ring at 3. I dunno, I think it's worth considering that since each deck only has 4 copies of the creature that it might be acceptable to keep in the format.
I will admit that I am jumping the gun a little bit here. You are definitely right that it should be playtested against other decks to really decide. I think it will not be necessary to ban Training Grounds given that it is quite vulnerable to removal. Thanks mandroid, your insight here has been very helpful!
This is in beta: Noble Titan
Basically ramp to the titan then get whatever suits your game plan. Haunted Fengraf + Cloudpost is my personal ETB trigger choice, but 2 Cloudpost is good too. If he gets to attack, 2 Teetering Peeks can really take a chunck out of their life total, and if he gets Exiled, then you can just continue wrecking havok with Fanning the Flames. Note that this deck is somewhat weak against counter-heavy decks as it kind of goes all-in on the titan.
I mean, it works on turn three fine, just not consistently. It's actually arguably more consistent than plenty of other ones because one combo piece is colorless. The problem here is you have to play 3 pieces, so it's super hard to get it out on turn 3 if you don't have all the pieces initially.
Update! Noble Titan
Turn 3 Titan is now a go. 10 1CMC ramp with 10 2CMC ramp - who knew Noble could be so broken?!
He fetches fun stuff like:
2 Teetering Peeks for a 10-point swing (may move this to 4 if it's strong enough, pretty consistent turn 5 kill)!4 Haunted Fengraf to recur him should he die4 Cloudpost-family lands to ensure that your Fanning the Flames is big enough to outright kill opponents1 Bojuka Bog to hate on the yard as early as turn 3!
I think this is probably a Tier 2 deck due to lack of disruption. Combo decks just ignore you while control decks laugh at your ramp, and aggro probably doesn't even notice what you're doing, they're drooling over the topdeck possibilities when you haven't interacted with them by turn 3. At least the Titan can fetch a little lifegain, can't say the same for disruption...
One more idea: Why not make Command Tower work with the Noble to help out multicolor decks? There are no good multicolor lands which don't CIPT at common - this would give the format an interesting shot in the arm, but may be too good as it favors stuff like this beta I'm working on:
There is no Commander in this format.
Here is the relevant ruling taken from above:
"Deck ConstructionNoble decks may include:
One rare or mythic rare card. This is your Noble card.
The Noble card must be rare or mythic rare."
And then the FAQ above:
"Q:Does Command Tower produce mana of the color(s) of my Noble Card?
A: While Command Tower is legal in this format, since there is no "Commander", the land does not produce any mana when tapped."
My argument for making that a workable land is that it would diversify the format and make more good decks that were being held down by the horrible nonbasics that are at common viable and competitive.
The best counterargument I can think of is that card costs between 1 & 4 dollars, and since this is designed top-down to be a casual format where people don't have to spend tons of dough, making that card legal would stratify the player base into those who could play every deck since they can buy Command Tower and those who are stuck playing decks that are viable without playing command tower for whatever reason (monocolored, splashed Noble, etc...)
Kind of ironically, the cards which are good here also do well in competitive decks in multiple formats, and can sometimes pump the price up a little (You want FOW? you'll be paying a lot), but it's defenitely contained by the fact that there's only 4 uncommons allowed, so it's only the really old commons which are worth lots.
I know it wouldn't do anything but you could still play it. The way it is set up now is simple, it works and if you need more than basic land to produce mana? There are tons of artifacts, creatures, and there is still always the Shimmering Grotto option.
I don't think you should be allowed to use Edric or Animar or any of the commander set guys. They were made for commander, so if you want to use them, go play EDH. Here we take some legendary creatures, but mostly other rares, like enchantments or artifacts or creatures.
"I don't think you should be allowed to use Edric or Animar or any of the commander set guys. They were made for commander, so if you want to use them, go play EDH. Here we take some legendary creatures, but mostly other rares, like enchantments or artifacts or creatures."
Hey good for you, but they're legal in eternal formats where you have access to the plethora of sets available. That means it's legal here too. It's not broken, so it's not banned, and you don't have to play against my Edric deck if you don't want to. I'm going to play what I want when I want, and I'm going to build whatever I want to appease the designer inside of me.
Here's the list of formats Edric is legal in to give you a little reference to his power level:
LegacyVintageFreeformPrismaticTribal Wars LegacyClassicSingleton 100Commander
"I know it wouldn't do anything but you could still play it. The way it is set up now is simple, it works and if you need more than basic land to produce mana? There are tons of artifacts, .creatures, and there is still always the Shimmering Grotto option."
As has been talked about often in the theory of Cube design - the decks which are hurt the most by the lack of good non-basic lands are actually aggro decks. It forces them into one color with maybe a splash in order to play their spells on time. Control isn't impacted as much because their spells are generally powerful enough that it doesn't hurt too much to take a turn off to ramp/fix with a signet. You're getting that turn back when you launch a 4CMC spell on turn 3. Making Command Tower work would help aggro more than other archetypes. As is, sure you can play it, but it makes no mana, so it literally does nothing. Relevant ruling taken from the Command Tower Gatherer page.
In formats other than Commander, Command Tower's ability produces no mana.
Holy crap, I just looked at that PDF Crivaro, that is awesome!!! Great job man, I can't wait to see the art for the site!
About the talk about the ban list getting too long: If this format takes off I wouldn't be surprised if it's ban list is the longest in any format. Most of the reason is the combination of the consistency of the Noble: You always have access to your Noble, so your crucial combo piece, your amazing enabler, even if it's just the best card in your deck, it's always there GTG. In the case of some it's nearly impossible to stop the Noble under certain conditions (See my Loam and Gargadon decks).
Also the difference between this and EDH in regards to the consistency of Noble/Commander is that these decks are allowed 4 ofs in a 60 card deck and EDH is singletons to prevent too bad of shenanigans.
Also if you have a 1 drop Noble you're getting an impressive benefit which didn't occur to me at first of being able to not play any 1 drops if they don't stand up to the 2 drops available to you. Since 2 drops are generally stronger, you're getting a stronger draw all game.
I wish we could edit old posts, sorry to drag out this thread guys, it's why we need to get the forum up and going.
Training Grounds Noble.dec 2.0
Muddle the mixture now tutors for every piece of my combo.
4 Rolling Thunder to hurt aggro while buying time to find the pieces
1 Pyromantics to slide by control after I build infinite mana
4 lotus petal + 4 simian spirit guide for fast mana
4 probe + 3 Street Wraith for burning through the deck.
Turn 3 kill on a good draw, probably more often turn 4-6 combo kill, but if all your pieces aren't there in time you can wrath with Rolling Thunder to buy a little time to get the last pieces for a 6-8 kill (probably won't happen too often).
Sorry if this has been asked before, but why don't you add a rule that says:
If your Noble is killed it is sent back to the command zone, although next time you play it, 1 colorless mana is added to its cost. If your Noble is exiled it is removed from the game permanently unless a card says otherwise.
Also, Naya Noble
Basically that's not a rule to stop the Noble from dominating the game. The idea is that the Noble will still make a huge splash in the game because it's usually the best card in the deck, but it can be removed as any other. It highlights the power of the commons really, while not constraining decks to be relegated to just support for the Noble.
Currently I'm working on a new version of the .PDF. I'll just wait until all recent changes are at my mailbox and I have the ok of the others. Until then I'll leave the .PDF mentioned above online. Sorry for all the errors until then :D In the new version I fixed everything that came to my attention. If you have something to say, too: Don'd hesitate to write on my wall!
"Ok, i was just wondering, although, maybe if this becomes a real MTG format, Wizards will make a Noble set and have a card that allows you to bring back your killed Noble. I mean, just a thought."
Oh and graft, what's the ruling for cards that were reprinted in Master's Edition I-IV? Exile is a common there, so is it a common? ME I-IV were only released online, but a lot of the rarities were fixed to make ME very well balanced, so I don't think that they really broke anything
Also a Gatherer search cross-index of Name: "Exile" & Rarity: "Common" returned Exile as a common, so it's a common.
Seems like a good card for the format, big boost for white-based control (compare it to Timely Reinforcements against creature decks, each card gains life and evens the creature ratio), costs less than a bunch of other similar white removal that is usually uncommon, and actually Exiles stuff, which can be important.
You know the drill on this one: play critters, equip them, hold onto your paladin until you can refill your hand if you're worried about him dying.
The creature suite here features 7 creatures that create tokens upon death and a smattering of other abilities. Between the lifelink and Exile the race should be close.
My favorite card here is Mortarpod. It helps in an area white is usually lacking in, and if you have the Paladin out it speeds you up by a turn because you can just launch your whole team at your opponent's face.
You're gonna have to ask Graft about that one, but I was under the impression that was the case. But I did just find this page, which implies that in MTGO pauper cards are the ones which have been printed at common in some set released on MTGO. Now unless the rules for the paper Pauper format are different than the ones for the online Pauper format then I would venture to say that Exile is legal.
Since Noble is a paper format, only printed sets are used to determine card legality. The problem with allowing cards that have been printed at common on MTGO is that there are also many cards that are not common on MTGO that are intended to balance that out. If we allow people to use cards from the Masters Editions as commons, then we would have to also follow the uncommon restrictions of MTGO. For instance, you will not find High Tide as a common on MTGO. However, we allow the use of such cards as commons in Noble, so we cannot allow MTGO commons that are not printed on paper as commons.
TL;DR - Online only sets are not counted when determining a cards lowest printed rarity. So no, you may not use cards that are common on MTGO but are not common on paper.
mandroid, Pauper is an online only format. There is no such thing as "Paper Pauper". No matter where you play Pauper, Ornithopter is always illegal, because it is not a common on MTGO. However, Noble is not the same thing as Pauper, we allow the use of any common that has been printed in a real MTG set that is not on the ban list, not just MTGO commons. So, in that mindset, MTGO commons do not count as far as determining a cards lowest printed rarity.
Sorry I've been slow to respond, life has been keeping me busy! Everyone in this thread is wonderful!
Just bought a web host and domain name for the Noble site, I hope to get a basic version up and running in 1-2 weeks.
I've changed our "Mission Statement" to make this a "4-turn win" format in an effort to keep the ban list to a minimum.
I've asked KorApprentice to be the primary arbiter (I love that word) of the ban list for the format. He is extremely apt at these matters, and I trust him to make the correct decisions.
Noble is now a selectable format on TappedOut! Thanks yeaGO!! I've put the ban list in place but I'm not sure it's working correctly at this point. Please let me know if you experience any problems. Thanks!
@Jarrod_0067: I think reducing the number of cards per deck to 40 would warp the format in favor of combo decks, so I don't think we have it as an option.
@Nazsmith: I personally don't think (and I hope) Training Grounds doesn't need the banhammer, I love that card. I think if we have to ban something, I would rather ban Pili-Pala since it would never see play outside of the Training Grounds or Heartstone combo. Izzet Guildmage is nuts with Training Grounds and something like Lightning Bolt, but I don't think it's totally broken. Even the Pili-Pala combo dies to removal. @Crivaro: thanks again for the awesome .pdf! @mandroid: Isochron Scepter is great, but it is potential card disadvantage if the other player has a counter ready or any kind of artifact removal. It doesn't dominate legacy so I think we can give it a chance. For Command Tower, I love the land, but the Noble is not a Commander, and I don't want errata to change that. Making a manabase out of commons is one of the reasons that I like this format, and honestly Command Tower functions like a rare more than a common. I like having to use borderposts and signets for mana fixing, since they slow the format down a little bit. Regarding Master's Edition I-IV I think I have to say that they are not included in rarity consideration, simply for ease of player understanding (current ruling is based on printed rarity, ME is online only). Though I agree these cards would not be broken being considered commons. I chose printed rarity because the people that this format was designed for should be building their deck based on their paper cards, not MTGO cards. KorApprentice also makes a great point in his post. Continued...
April 14, 2012
@Crivaro: thanks again for the awesome .pdf!
@mandroid: Isochron Scepter is great, but it is potential card disadvantage if the other player has a counter ready or any kind of artifact removal. It doesn't dominate legacy so I think we can give it a chance. For Command Tower, I love the land, but the Noble is not a Commander, and I don't want errata to change that. Making a manabase out of commons is one of the reasons that I like this format, and honestly Command Tower functions like a rare more than a common. I like having to use borderposts and signets for mana fixing, since they slow the format down a little bit. Regarding Master's Edition I-IV I think I have to say that they are not included in rarity consideration, simply for ease of player understanding (current ruling is based on printed rarity, ME is online only). Though I agree these cards would not be broken being considered commons. I chose printed rarity because the people that this format was designed for should be building their deck based on their paper cards, not MTGO cards. KorApprentice also makes a great point in his post. Continued...
For Command Tower, I love the land, but the Noble is not a Commander, and I don't want errata to change that. Making a manabase out of commons is one of the reasons that I like this format, and honestly Command Tower functions like a rare more than a common. I like having to use borderposts and signets for mana fixing, since they slow the format down a little bit. Regarding Master's Edition I-IV I think I have to say that they are not included in rarity consideration, simply for ease of player understanding (current ruling is based on printed rarity, ME is online only). Though I agree these cards would not be broken being considered commons. I chose printed rarity because the people that this format was designed for should be building their deck based on their paper cards, not MTGO cards. KorApprentice also makes a great point in his post. Continued...
@vishnarg: I don't mind if people want to use cards from the Commander sets in this format. The fewer restrictions there are on deckbuilding, the happier I am.
@squirrelking98: If the Noble returned to the command zone, it would be far too difficult to beat combo decks. If you're going to run a combo deck without some kind of protection, you're a sitting duck waiting to lose. If you include some kind of graveyard recursion in your deck, you can get your Noble back. For instance, that's why Unearth is so great in my Noblesong deck. If I missed anything, please let me know. Thanks for all of the support!
April 14, 2012
If I missed anything, please let me know. Thanks for all of the support!
Hi, I made an Enduring Renewel/Grinding Station Deck.
It tends to win on turn 4/5, though it can win as early as turn 2 thanks to Lotus Petal.
Therefore, I believe this deck to be overpowered, and in need of a good banning. :3
I'm curious why Splinter Twin is banned but Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker isn't? I guess I missed the comment before it was purged. I will be building a Noble deck though! Love this idea, and its more challenging than I'd thought it'd be. Even though my knowledge of magic cards only reaches as far back as Zendikar haha.
the Twin was banned back when we were trying to build decklists to establish turn 5 kills, but since then basically the format has determined that turn 4 kills aren't out of the question. It's probably going to come off the ban list, you should talk to KorApprentice about it if you really want to make a ST deck. The main knock against it compared to Kiki is that it's a pretty damn consistent turn 4 kill between the 4+ Brainstorm variants and the full 8-set of the two creature combo pieces which enable the kill since you don't need acceleration to pull it off (not sure if that actually matters that much because of all the fixing).
Also if someone had make a Kiki deck at that time it probably would have been banned, as all it take is one ramp spell to put it on Twin's level.
Don't forget Pestermite (that's what I was referring to, forgot about the white ones). Gives you the option of going U/R, W/R or R/w/u (probably don't want to do this unless you're going for heavy control with a combo finisher since the mana-fixing in this format aint that great). And they're all 3 drops o_O
I guess WOTC was like "Well, that combo is already super-enabled, so let's just print whatever we want and not worry about it."
Yeah, I'm not denying that those are good mana-fixing cards, but my point is just that those eat your turn 1 play, so it's harder to go pure aggro without good non-basic lands that don't CIPT.
If you're going midrange/control they're better but super-aggro is hurt by the lack of nonbasics.
I've made a noble deck: NobleFog (UW)
Basically, turn 2 Luminarch Ascension and pile on the tokens with fog effects to stop damage from creatures, into the roil and oblivion ring to stop damage from anything else.
Isochron Scepter is there to make the deck even more annoying.
@ Platinum Demon:
We're working on building the site right now, we've got 4 people currently working on building. It should be up within a week. Currently my IRL friend has been given the graphics for the site and he's going to build a page header which will work for different screen resolutions and page sizes, and I'm gonna try to get the forum working over the next few days. There'll be an update here once it's online, so stay tuned and keep your Nobles on high alert.
That's what I've been thinking for a bit, but there's still Simian Spirit Guide, which is almost as good since most combos move towards red for the kill. Ultimately, I dunno. I've seen it in like every combo deck, but unless the format slows down again to turn 5 then I don't really see it getting the hammer since it's kind of the same thing as stuff like Rite of Flame except that it makes all colors.
We shall see. I'm all for moving the format back to turn 5 kills as that would include more variety in the types of decks which are playable and competitive. If RDW is the benchmark, then we can probably move the kill clock to turn 5 by simply banning Fireblast.
What's the community think? Also if anyone wants to do any testing, I'm all for it, we can work over Magic Workstation or just chatting. I used to play Super Mental Magic with my friend, so I can handle drawing hands on the site here and playing by plaintext chat.
Hello, this is the arbiter of the ban list here. I am currently reworking the ban list to allow turn 4 kills because the ban list was getting far too long. graft and myself are both of the mind that we should try to restrict this format as little as possible to allow for more diversity. I will be playtesting Noble decks that win on turn 3 against other competitive decks in the format to determine what cards really need to be banned. So far, it is possible that both Splinter Twin and Goblin Recruiter will be coming off the ban list, but that is just an example of how the playtesting is going. Ultimately, it is going to take quite a few weeks to come up with the new ban list, since I am so busy during the week and will most likely do playtesting only on the weekends. Also, I will say right now that Lotus Petal will not be banned under any circumstances, it is entirely necessary for there to be diversity in the format. Banning it would drastically reduce the amount of competitive strategies by moving their turn clock back to turn 5. The point of reworking the ban list is too allow more turn 4 kills is to balance out the turn 4 kill decks that were already out there. I will be giving weekly updates on the progress of the ban list, so stay tuned!
Sounds great, but I've just got one point:
It's possible that instating a turn 5 kill ruling for the ban list would actually add diversity to the format instead of removing diversity. My reasoning behind this is that if turn 5 is when a kill is expected, that could possibly create an environment where more Nobles are actually viable to choose which weren't in a turn 4 environment. That doesn't mean that games will never get to turn 5+ in this environment, as a heavy black disruption deck like Noble Modern Mono Black Discard Control then you can easily survive long enough to drop the Noble.
Now that I've made that point, I'm not sure turn 5 is actually viable as there are just SOOOO many ramp spells that increase the kill clock.
lol Clever mandroid clever
"Your Noble card may be cast from the Command Zone as though it were in your hand, and any abilities of your Noble card may be activated from the Command Zone as if the card were in your hand"
It starts in the Command zone and then is cast AS THOUGH from the hand. Pretty sure that this means the leyline is not in your opening 7.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is banned for his cruel control capabilities. A brutal blue control deck with JTMS as the Noble would be nearly unbeatable with the access to countermagic and other control. It's actually his other three abilities, not his ultimate, that make him banworthy in this format and nearly any other. His ultimate is powerful, but you are correct that it will almost never go off. However, JTMS gives you access to a free fateseal, a free Brainstorm, or a free Unsummon every turn, and that is just plain hard to compete with.
KorApprentice is the keeper of the ban list, appointed by Graft]. Walletslayer can be answered easily by black, blue and white in this format. Green also has ways of dealing with it, though fewer than other colors, and they're often not main. WSA is a real beating for red decks though.
Also the anti-Jace cards are often at higher rarities, which makes him hard to answer in this format.
Heh. I get to play Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind as my noble? Alright, then I'll make this:
Seems pretty silly. Plus CounterTop combo as well? Yeah, I'll get behind that.
I'm making another deck, I'll post it up soon. Cause I can use Stroke of Genius as my noble. =D
I have only just started to look over this format and it looks exciting for me because I have a large collections of cards, and many friend who do not. With a format like this, I can afford to loan friends the few rares they need and let them have many of the commons I like, however I was frustrated to see that you were debating unbanning Time Walk.
In your original description of this format you were explaining that decks could be built without it costing as much. Time Walk itself costs over $500. I understand that cards like these will only be used as proxy cards or for free online play, but I would personally enjoy this format more if it tried to maintain a ban list that allowed for players to actually be able to afford to own the decks that compete well with high end noble decks.
Personally, I agree with your idea, but it is the desire of the graft to keep the ban list as small as possible in order to facilitate a low entry barrier for the format. Since it's designed top-down to be a casual format, I think that's a good choice. The intention is for it to be played informally and for it to be accessible to players of all skill levels, so hopefully the rules can facilitate that. I realize that being a new player doesn't mean that they're not going to be good at the game, but it's still a fact that MTG has one of the most complicated rules setup in any tabletop game ever. Perhaps you're right and the needs of most players are served best by making sure they can go to FNM and actually compete without buying rediculious rares, but time will tell, this format is still in its infancy. Also I think having a hundred-card ban list just to eliminate the possibility of playing expensive cards is unnecessary as long as they don't dominate the format and people can still win with cheap decks.
Also I think it's not a good idea to unban Time Walk. It's quite vulnerable itself to yard hate, but in reality much less so since you're going to have counterspell mana open most of the time. Then getting it back is just insane. I'll test it out with KorApprentice some time if you want graft, but my gut is saying it's extremely abusable.
Actually, Time Walk doesn't work with Isochron Scepter since it is a sorcery. I made the same mistake earlier... it combos with Panoptic Mirror, but both are rare so it doesn't break the format. I think it would be possible to build a really good deck around Time Walk using things like Izzet Chronarch, Izzet Guildmage, Mnemonic Wall, Noxious Revival etc but it probably wouldn't be terribly overpowered. Time Walk could probably safely come off the ban list. But at $500 I can't imagine anyone would actually use it.
I'll read the rest of the thread later. Had a beer, feeling good, got caught up in commenting.
Entomb would be something I would use for the noble until its banned, but the deck is (for the most part) already built as a pauper on my page. Just some changes from that to fit noble.
Once entomb is banned I'll make Recurring Nightmare my noble for a quick reanimation.
While my comment regarding the sale of this in paper, i still stand that they won't make paper sets just because they wouldn't be able to make enough money selling mass commons without some kind of special backing (alt art, all foil, etc, etc, etc).
But! I bet this would explode on mtgo in a heartbeat. Everyone loves commander, everyone loves pauper. This format is like a perfect marriage of the 2.
There is an easy instant win combo with Recurring Nightmare, Priest of Gix, and Hissing Iguanar, and infinite life if you replace the iguanar with Deathgreeter, so Recurring Nightmare is currently up for ban consideration. Sorry to be ruining your combo's, just trying to even the playing field. If such a combo is too vulnerable to removal and proves much slower in play testing than theory, then Recurring Nightmare might not get banned, but I get the feeling that it is a little too powerful. We shall see when I get around to playtesting it.
@platinum_demon: "Hey, would we be able to set up a Noble deck hub so we could see all the Noble decks in one place?"
We are looking into adding this as a feature on the Noble website once it is up and running. For now, you can use the deck:search/?format=Noble&q=&price_0=&price_1=&rating_score_0=&rating_score_1=&order=-date_updated&submit=Filter+results">advanced search feature to find them.
@-There are a few reasons. Pauper uses 5 uncommons, so in this format, since you have 1 rare it makes sense to subtract 1 uncommon. Also, you can only have up to four of any given card, which means you can have a full playset of one uncommon if you like. If there were more than 4 uncommons, it changes the feel of the format, and definitely makes combos more powerful. @squire1
: Agreed, I don't think Time Walk needs to be banned. You sarcastic sonofawonderfulperson :) Actually, counterspells are why I stopped adding things to the banned list. Without a functioning metagame, there are very little control aspects people are considering. Once there is a functional meta, I think we will see that not all combos are unbeatable. @aloehart199: The funny thing about the possibility of WotC printing these decks is that if you look at any of their preconstructed decks, the common/uncommon/rare ratio isn't terribly far off from this format. And if we get them to reprint valuable commons/uncommons (Force of Will, anyone?) they can easily make it worthwhile for we players. One new one I threw together: Noble Trampledancer Thanks everyone for the support!
April 22, 2012
: Agreed, I don't think Time Walk needs to be banned. You sarcastic sonofawonderfulperson :) Actually, counterspells are why I stopped adding things to the banned list. Without a functioning metagame, there are very little control aspects people are considering. Once there is a functional meta, I think we will see that not all combos are unbeatable. @aloehart199: The funny thing about the possibility of WotC printing these decks is that if you look at any of their preconstructed decks, the common/uncommon/rare ratio isn't terribly far off from this format. And if we get them to reprint valuable commons/uncommons (Force of Will, anyone?) they can easily make it worthwhile for we players. One new one I threw together: Noble Trampledancer Thanks everyone for the support!
@aloehart199: The funny thing about the possibility of WotC printing these decks is that if you look at any of their preconstructed decks, the common/uncommon/rare ratio isn't terribly far off from this format. And if we get them to reprint valuable commons/uncommons (Force of Will, anyone?) they can easily make it worthwhile for we players. One new one I threw together: Noble Trampledancer Thanks everyone for the support!
One new one I threw together: Noble Trampledancer
Thanks everyone for the support!
@zandl, maybe I've been playing too much pauper but that just doesn't seem that broken to me. I played against someone on pauper that was playing affinity and dropped 1 Frogmite turn 2 then 2 more and a Myr Enforcer on me turn 3
And I won that game with a R/U storm deck i had been working on.
Eternal formats are all full of crazy plays like that. Certain cards need banned but for the most part until a particular deck starts owning the format (cawblade when it was standard, preban of mystic) the cards for it shouldn't be banned.
Certain cards in the game are flat out overpowered and ridiculous. We don't have to see a deck break Black Lotus, the cards brokenness is written right on it lol. But cards like opal (which i agree may need bannning somewhere down the line) should be given a chance before limiting a format too much.
on a side note, Noble Death
just out of curiosity why is Mindcrank banned? Considering it requires the opponent to lose life before it works, it seems like it wouldn't be overpowered.
On the other hand I am far from knowing all the cards so there's probably some combo that breaks the card heavily
Okay i have a question for the rules junkies... If i were to use say, Wurmcoil Engine and I wanted to bring it back to my hand, is that legal? Because of its effect, it has to hit the graveyard, and because of the rules, it doesnt go back to the Command Zone once its been played. So does that allow me to return it to my hand from the graveyard using Nature's Spiral, Remember the Fallen, or Salvage Scout?
Prices may very, different cards are priced very differently. I mean your Noble could be a $100.00 Planeswalker making your Noble deck cost $140.00 or your Noble could be something like Essence of the Wild and your deck could be $15.00 it just depends on the cards you use.
Also it's been a while since I contributed here, but me and my friends play this at my local card store (people all over there are starting to make this deck), but we all play with 40 cards because it's even easier to build and actually a little more fun. I know this would be drastic, but perhaps for the sake of the format we should go to 40 cards?
I believe I may have found a top-tier aggro strategy in Noble: Survival of the Noblest
It's got tons of fast creatures, a toolkit, disruption, and more. A lot of aggro decks can't deal with 4 Basking Rootwallas into 3 Arrogant Wurms, all with flying thanks to Wonder. Counterspells should deal with Storm decks. Wild Mongrel and company ensure the deck doesn't up and die to a Counterspell on the Noble, Survival of the Fittest.
I don't think Survival needs to be banned, but this shows the power of a card banned in Legacy. It feels like a rush.
vishnarg, it is fine to play it as a 40-card format with your friends, but being allowed to have 40-card decks would completely warp the tournament setting that we are trying to establish. Any turn 3 or 4 win, be it aggro or combo, would become far more consistent, until only a few decks could compete in the format. We want to create a format with as much diversity as possible, and having 60-card decks means that people must come up with strategies to survive until they can pull off a win, especially for combo decks since they will have to wait longer for their combo to show up, giving their opponent time to deal with it. In a 40-card setting, people would be winning before anyone could set up any kind of board position and certain combo's would most likely rise to the top of every tournament just because of their unbeatable consistency. Imagine a 40-card High Tide deck with a playset of Ponders and Preordains, it would go off by turn 3 every game.
Except when you have a combo deck and you are running a 2 card instant kill combo if one is your noble card and the other is in your deck you statistically Have a better chance to draw your combo piece. Take for example, bloodcrank, yes I know it's banned. However, if I have ascension as my noble and 4x mindcrank in my deck I now have a 1/4 chance as opposed to a 1/15 chance to draw my combo piece. This was what graft and kor apprentice were trying to avoid.
It's not a mistake, your noble card can be anything. The reason is because this is supposed to be a very friendly format where you always have access to your one rare. Also, it is a format that can be easily played/built into by a couple of booster packs.
Well. I've been making a SHITLOAD of noble decks, and they could all use a little love, but my current experiment is this: Fumiko's Arsenal (Suggestions Welcome!)
I wanted to see if I could make a deck where the only creature is the noble. Could really use all the help I can get.
I just have a question about the Time Spiral "Timeshifted" cards. They all have a rarity of "Special". I was wondering what that would be considered as. Or if those are just not considered when looking at rarity. But if they aren't considered (due to 99% of them being printed elsewhere), that leaves out Arena . Arena was only printed in Time Spiral "Timeshifted" and as a book promo. So the only rarity it has is special. Would this card just be omitted from deck building as it doesn't have a normal rarity (common, uncommon, rare, or mythic rare)? I think there should be a specific ruling for Arena so that it could have a place in the format somewhere (even if it's on the banned list), instead of just being ignored.
@ Virlym: Thank you very much for pointing this out, I agree that we should make a special ruling for Arena or any similar cards that may be released in the future. My gut instinct is to make a general ruling to equate Special-only rarity to be equivalent to Rares. I feel this way because any card can be printed as a Special rarity, and I don't want Special to supercede the other rarities. In other words, I don't want there to be confusion about how many copies of Ajani Vengeant can be included because he was printed once at Special rarity.
Well, 'Special' is a special thing. Usually a card istn't only printed only as special. I'd use the normal rarity for Ajani, since he is printed in other editions (and always would use the Noble-Slot). For Arena I'd use a Noble-Slot, too. Means: Treat it like Rare/Mythic. Or set the Rule:
"If a card has no printed rarity (means: Common/Uncommon/Rare/Mythic) it may not be used. Cards that have a special rarity may be used as a Proxy as long it is in the place the other card would fill. (means, a Special-Rarity Ajani would use the slot of a rare/mythic. An Arena however is not printed in other editions and so has no rarity except special. It may not be used.)".
Hey all, sorry I haven't replied in quite a while. Also extremely upset with myself for letting the site go on for so long in such a basic form. Anyways, the reason is that I had finals, then I had to move out of college and into a house, which we had to clean top to bottom because the previous tenants left it a mess. Then I had a job fall into my lap in Texas of all places for three weeks, which I'm just finishing up now. I have been working 10+ hour days almost every day, it's been exhausting. It's finally been slowing down a bit and I've gotten a chance to set up dropbox and fill it full of my files, so that's great, and I plan on working on the site tonight. I'm going to take all of these links that graft posted for decklists and post them on the site, as well as starting on the new site styling. Hopefully it will be a little more filled out soon. Dev team, if you're still looking at this thread, please reply with a dossier about yourself so I can add that too. I will also reply to our email thread.
Good luck everyone and have fun with Noble.
Well... take this example: Reforge the Soul - "You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn." Since you normally would not draw your noble-card, you can't trigger it's miracle-cost (but you can cast it for its normal costs, of cause). If you lay it on the top of your library somehow (maybe from your graveyard), you can draw in it and therefore use its miracle-costs.
ah.. i'm completely new to tapped out, which i found amazing as a referance for to what decks some cards lead (duh) and just wondered, what all these formats are all about (so what i need to check when posting a deck), so this is how i stumbled upon this 'thread'.
I wouldn't quite make comprehensive rules for something like the nobel format, but just make it budget. Considering you got this link (nice feature btw) to CoolStuffs price list, this would be extremely lucid. Something like between 20 up to 25$. No matter what the emphasize of the deck is.
I'd like to re-state, Entomb needs serious ban hammer attention if the format is to be a supported format. otherwise you open competitive play to using the following deck
If you can find a way to stop this deck from a guaranteed win then consider how much trouble and how many decks have the capability of preventing it. Entomb is an awesome card I wish we still had in standard, but the card is just ridiculously powerful and Forcing players to play graveyard hate to have any chance of winning is just bad for the health of the format
Being a rare, Entomb doesn't pose that much of a threat. You can get around it in other ways besides graveyard hate. If they play it early you can still kill or exile the creature they bring back. If they play it later, you can use a Counterspell -like card. With it taking up the rare spot, there aren't too many broken creatures that you can fetch anyways. It seems to be just fine for most cases. If someone isn't playing removal, counterspells, or graveyard hate, then that's their problem. You can fit at least one of those in any deck without hindering the deck all that much (sometimes it's actually beneficial to have some creature removal in a deck).
It is a good card, I'll give you that, but it isn't broken in the format. There are plenty of ways around it. And if that's the sole point of the deck, then it seems like you basically lose if someone has a way around it.
Hey all, sorry for being incognito for so long. Life has been keeping me busy.
Adam Styborski over at Daily MTG is calling for examples of lesser-known formats so that he can publicize them. You can read the article here. If you have a favorite Noble deck (either yours or someone else's), send it to him in an email using the "Respond Via Email" link at the bottom of the article, and explain why you like Noble. I've already sent him one email, but I'm sure if you guys send a few he'll be more likely to include it in his upcoming article. One catch, he needs your submissions by midnight on August 15th. That's right around the corner! Get to it!
Thanks squire1 for pointing this out to me!
Noble was featured on Adam Styborski's column on Daily MTG today: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/sf/210
My thanks to MLBurt, who gave an excellent description of Noble and his Noble Knight of the Reliquary deck was featured. Also thanks to Virlym, whose Noble Boros Armor deck was also featured. Congrats guys! Thanks to everyone else who sent in a submission, even if I'm not sure who you are :D
If you would like Adam to take a deeper look at Noble in the future, send him an email through the link at the bottom of the article.
Kickass! :D Note, that he wrote: "In fact, I received several different responses all sharing that playing Noble is a noble idea indeed! Of all the pitches I read, converting Commander and Pauper into a slick way to have your go-to card is something that lit up my radar. If you agree, let me know and I'll make a plan to revisit it someday."
The last sentence should be the thing we should try. Revisiting this format is the 2nd step to get this supported! Great work guys, thanks!
Thanks graft. The Noble Boros Armor deck I submitted was just a funny Boros deck I made for my friend because he didn't have a noble deck, but he wanted one. He liked Boros and equipment, so I just threw that together for him. I thought it was amusing enough to merit using as an example. Apparently that was a good idea. :)
Also it is my opinion that Lotus Petal should be banned. It has appeared as a four-of in almost every decklist which has resulted in another card being banned. It's showing up as a four-of even in non-combo decks to speed their clock up. In general, any time a card is that prolific it tends to stifle format development (think Skullclamp - when it was released you either played it or played a deck designed to beat it: there were no other options). Any other takes?
I have mixed feelings about Lotus Petal but I am currently working on a list to show the power of card:Lion's Eye Diamond which is another rare I feel should be banned. Also, the power of Palinchron I feel is overwhelming when combined with High Tide . This is a rough high tide list i drafted up a few days ago that is capable of going infinite on turn 3.
Hey all, I just enabled the forums on the site. If people are interested in contributing discussions to the ban list, I feel like that would be more conductive to actually having conversations about particular cards because here it's just one long thread. There are only a smattering of sections up right now but I'm working on getting everything finalised. Next update to the site will involve hopefully styling the forums, and updating the rules page to reflect the latest version.
Also, just because a deck is capable of going infinite on turn 3 doesn't necessarily mean that a ban is warranted. It's those which go off on turn 3 an exceptional amount of the time. Not sure what exactly the threshold is, but there was one established a while back. Think it was something like > 50% of the time. Can anyone confirm?
Unmiracled Bonfire is RXX
Pay for 3 - deals 1 damage to target player and each creature they control
Pay for 5 - deals 2 damage to target player and each creature they control
Pay for 7 - deals 3 damage to target player and each creature they control
Comet storm is XRR (multikicker for 1)
Pay for 3 - deals 1 damage to target player or target creature
Pay for 4 - deals 1 damage to 2 target creatures/players or deals 2 damage to 1 creature/player
Pay for 5 - deals 3 damage to 1 creature/player or 2 damage to 2 target creature/player or 1 damage to 3 target creatures/players
Pay for 7 - deals 5 damage to one c/p, or 4 damage to 2x c/p, or 3 damage to 3x c/p, or 2 damage to 4x c/p, or 1 damage to 5x c/p
If you have mutiple targets then bonfire is pretty much always going to be better than comet storm. If you only have one target then technically Fireball is better than both of them. Yes the differences will get different longer down the road, but if you're still playing the game in a burn deck when you have more than 7 mana, then you're probably going to lose anyway. (granted a board wipe via bonfire is gonna be more advantageous in that situation too)
If it was me I'd want bonfire hands down over comet storm. Every time. The multikicker will add up quick with targets. Not to mention that comet storm still costs one more R than Bonfire. I did say "perhaps" the best as it would require more conversation, but I think a strong case could be made.
Melira can be disrupted pretty easily, even on a budget. I would look at some of the legacy combo decks to find the really degenerate combos that should be banned. Like the belcher list I put together. It has about a 70% turn 1 win rate with no mulligan.
What can I do for you?
Also, sorry that I've been lazy about ban ideas and things. Folks who want to help build up the community -- check out http://noblemtg.com. mandroid and Crivaro have done a great job with it, and I've been planning out some inaugural articles for it if I can ever find the time.
The noble card never returns to the commander zone. Once played it is treated like any other card, going to the graveyard after being cast if instant or sorcery, or after being destroyed if a permanent.
So you would hae no reason to have a tax as it can never return.
It seems to me like the Noble format has died out. There is too much room for hyper aggressive combo decks in the format, and unless you are willing to drop $320 for 4 force of wills and have them take up all your uncommon slots, there is no reason to play this in any kind of competitive setting because you are going to die by turn 2.
I disagree. In my community we have a lot of noble players and the number is growing. If you put creativity into decks and use cards that have fallen out of the public eye you can build decks that are cheap and still get the job done. One of the most competitive decks I use is only $30, and most are only around $20. I admit you can make (expensive) hyper aggressive decks that win in the first few turns but that is true in most formats. At its heart this format is about flavorful and inexpensive decks and it's still very much alive.
I herd u liek set reviews, so I wrote a Noble-centric set review for Gatecrash. Here it is! http://www.noblemtg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1467
Go read it instead of doing work or school or whatever. Be a slacker. Peer pressure! There's also a contest in there for those who read carefully. I'd like to make this a recurring column for each new set, so your feedback is important to me. Enjoy!
Awesome job on the review btw! Looks great, reads great! Perhaps you could include more combos that can be created with cards from previous sets (like the one on Hold the Gates) those are fun to read.
For Time Sieve first things that come to mind are: Disciple of the Vault , Myr Servitor , Myr Sire , Myr Retriever , Genesis Chamber , and Skeleton Shard . I dabbled with an artifact reanimate deck awhile back! Also Thopter Assembly works beautifully but it is rare.
Right now I'm building a monoblue ninja deck, and a monowhite samurai deck in this format out of the old kamigawa cards I wasn't using. I'll be sure to upload the decklists here once I'm finished!
Once these decks are finished, I intend them to work like duel decks so I can introduce more people to this format.
A lot of the guys in my meta are of the "I would love to build a commander deck, but I just don't have the cash..." so I think this format is perfect for us. Thank you!
The rules currently do not allow you to imprint your Noble from the Command Zone, but it could instead be imprinted if you had a way to return it to your hand, such as a Regrowth-type effect. We did create a special rule for suspend cards but I feel like it is a bit sloppy to create new rules for specific keyword interactions. I will mull it over. If anyone has any suggestions of how such a rule would be implemented, I'm all ears.
Since Noble is a casual format you can always just ask your playgroup if they would allow the interaction.
With a new set comes a new edition of Noble Notables - Dragon's Maze Edition. Take a peek at my evaluation of cards as reviewed from a Noble perspective, and take part in any or all of the three contests!
Side note: Regarding the ban list, I haven't had time to conduct much testing, but I feel as though we were overzealous with the original ban list. I want to look at trimming it down quite a bit, and eventually update it to see if we need to make additional bans. At some point I will initiate a conversation over in the Noble Forums where we can dissect these issues. Until then, thanks a million for your patience and support!
This is the first time reading or hearing of this format. Its interesting.
As for bans... due to the nature of the format.. I believe that if its banned in anything, that it should be banned in this format. This is meant truly for casual players.
|Date added||1 year|
|Last updated||3 weeks|
|Legal formats||Commander / EDH, Legacy, Modern, Vintage|
|Illegal cards||Curse of Chains , Loxodon Warhammer , Gideon's Avenger , Blinding Souleater , Gideon's Lawkeeper , Haunted Fengraf , Stave Off , Accorder's Shield , Flayer Husk , Alluring Siren , Origin Spellbomb , Remember the Fallen , Swiftfoot Boots , Sylvok Lifestaff , Porcelain Legionnaire , Infiltration Lens , Bladed Pinions , Evolving Wilds , Vedalken Certarch , Sunspear Shikari|
|Top rank||#1 on 2012-04-06|