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Yawgmoth's Bargain Discussion
9 hours ago
This same type of thread has been kicking around online pretty much since Thassa's Oracle was spoiled
- Lets you get ETB and LTB triggers from any creature for
- Instant Speed
- Lets you tutor for 6 different cards, or 5 different cards, or 4 different cards, or 3 different cards, or 2 different cards, or 1 card
- Able to create loops from the creatures you pull by utilizing cards like Phyrexian Delver Body Snatcher and Body Double
- Expensive to cast but easy to reanimate or cheat into play
Yeah banning either one helps a lot, but nobody plays Flash -> Rector seriously, and even if they did it isn't more or less broken than many other combos. Flash for Rector usually means you're pulling Omniscience. Since Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned in the format, you don't really have a good easy line with Rector that doesn't involve more cards in hand. If you Flash -> Omniscience, your combo is actually a 3 card combo as now you have to have an outlet card. Also consider how absurdly low quality Omniscience is outside of comboing, and how having it in your hand makes your combo brick out completely. I know people like to say this is the reason to get Flash over Hulk, but it will see 0 play if Hulk is banned and flash isn't.
Also consider the usefulness of Rector and Flash casually. Rector is a dead draw outside of combo and so is Flash. Hulk decks don't run enough ETB or LTB effects to make casually popping a flash worthwhile, same for enchantments as other outs for Rector. Also consider the commanders. Resolving Flash -> Rector doesn't do much with Thrasios + Tymna. You can't nab an enchantment to give infinite Thrasios activations and draw thru.
I think people really underestimate Hulk for some reason. Every single combo with creatures can be put in the context of flash hulk. Any new speed cards or cheat into play exacerbate the problem. Flash certainly can be problematic for future printings, but realistically Flash combos with one card in a busted way. Hulk has so many different combo options available its pretty ridiculous.
1 week ago
Alright, in hypothetical Larryland where I am now in charge of making decisions, here is what I would do
First, establish criteria for the format
Shouldn't be too complicated, as there has already been lots of time spent discussing the format
- Bans should serve to stop certain combos or deckbuilding approaches from swallowing the meta.
- Bans should be justified off of power level for winning, not how fun or unfun the combo or style of deck is to play or play against
- General rules changes about the format should serve to open deckbuilding and allow for more interesting approaches to the meta and winning.
I think a couple rules changes should take place to open deckbuilding and allow more options, and allow cards to work as intended with the commander specific ruleset
- Commanders should hit the graveyard before returning to the command zone. This allows commanders like Child of Alara or other death triggers to actually function as intended while maintaining the command zone. Commanders should have the option of returning to the CZ at will from exile, the graveyard, the library, or a player's hand as an ability that doesn't use the stack, similar to mana abilities.
- Hybrid mana symbols should be perfectly legal as long as the hybrid symbols fulfill a color identity of your commander. For example, Boros Recruit should be legal in a mono-red deck. If a hybrid mana card has a mana symbol in the text box that it outside the color identity, it should still be excluded. For example, if Boros Recruit had a firebreathing ability for in the text box, it would no longer be legal in a mono-white deck.
- Restriction of the command zone to a single card. Partner commanders are still legal, but not legal to run them as partners in the command zone. Having a mix and match color identity and having guaranteed access to two cards at all times over one card is too strong. Bigger color identity means wider pool of cards to pull from, and the partner players are effectively starting with a 9 card hand as opposed to non-partner commanders starting with an 8 card hand.
Bans and Unbans
First, I would unban cards that the RC has banned because they are "unfun" or don't fit the spirit of the format
- Coalition Victory - If you can pull this off and cast the cost, go ahead and win
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This costs 15 mana and channel is banned, this isn't going to break decks at all and most likely will only see play as an Ulamog alternate in Gitrog decks
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant - This can be countered or removed or smart opponents can avoid triggering it. Once it has flipped, it is still removable although somewhat toxic. It definitely gets good mileage in EDH but people can play around this if they have even half a brain, which is what I would expect from competitive.
- Iona, Shield of Emeria - This is only banned now because Painter's Servant was unbanned. Certainly reanimator Iona strategies can cause problems, but hitting a 2 card combo for a soft lock isn't game shattering unless you are on a mono-colored deck, at which point it just becomes one of the things you must worry about. If Back to Basics and Blood Moon are totally fine for shitting on 3-5 color mana bases, I'm 100% fine with Iona for shitting on mono color decks.
- Library of Alexandria - I have no idea why this is banned in the first place. Most competitive decks are so tight on their land base and won't have a slot for this. Also most competitive decks wish to play spells on turn 1 and 2, which makes it harder to get the 7 in hand for the Library draw.
- Panoptic Mirror - If someone can assemble the ultra fragile Mirror + Free turn spell, and then gets an ENTIRE ROTATION of no one destroying it, I'm 100% fine with them taking infinite turns. Also consider that this combo basically costs to start, 5 for cast and 5 for the free turn. This card is banned because casuals absolutely loathe combos. Its unbanning could make Pox decks somewhat viable in competitive, and would be a boon to stax decks as well
- Primeval Titan - This card is a double tutor on ETB or attack, but its a double tutor for lands. If someone really wants to set up Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Inventors' Fair (which fetches Rings of Brighthearth) then more power to them, as it requires either a blink effect or an entire rotation to THEN get the second set of tutors from attacking. Its big value, but honestly no reason for this card to be banned. It costs to cast
- Paradox Engine - the banning of this card made the format worse, as it knocked out tons of viable decks simply because "Too many casuals put down rocks and PE and oops into an infinite". The unbanning of this card opens up the format significantly, and allows weird decks like Hannah, Ship's Navigator or Dralnu, Lich Lord to be viable commanders, although definitely not tier 0 picks.
- Recurring Nightmare - Banned because of griefing almost 100%. Nobody likes being hit by some ETB creature that involves saccing or losing permanents, but it isn't fast enough to warrant a ban. It requires mana, AND a creature on the field, AND a creature in the GY.
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - Selvala is basically a more powerful version of this because of the cantrips and you can play non-basic lands. This would probably become a tier 1 deck by basically copying the Selvala list, but I think the meta would be enriched from adding this as an alternate, similar to how Marwen has added instead of detracted from the meta.
- Sundering Titan - Banned because attacking a player's resources is seen as an unfun way to win. Its expensive to cast and not exactly game shattering when it enters.
- Sway of the Stars - This costs to cast for a weird Timetwister that sets life totals to 7. Sure there is potential for abuse with Suspend cards, but this costs 10 mana. Nobody is going to play this if it gets unbanned.
- Sylvan Primordial - Another board state changer that isn't really going to do as much as it looks when it lands. Sure, -3 permanents on board for opponents and +3 lands is neat, but it costs . Decks would rather win than assemble some blink or recursion loop for this card.
- Upheaval - This is banned almost entirely from a casual and time perspective. It makes games take longer. In competitive though, this card would be used with excess floating mana to THEN rip your combo. Almost definitely wouldn't see competitive play though, and the banning seems silly to me.
- Worldfire - If you can run a wacky suspend deck that abuses this to win, you have my blessing. It also costs to cast so someone will probably just win before you
- Yawgmoth's Bargain - This is a Necropotence that costs with the benefit of no-delay on the draws. If necro is legal, this should be legal.
My biggest reasoning for bans is that some combos are so strong and so hard to interact with that they become the go-to builds for certain color identities. When the optimal way to build 30 different commanders in the same color pairing is Flash Hulk, you have run into a problem.
- Flash - Arguably the worse part of Flash Hulk. Potential for abuse in a post-Hulk world with Academy Rector. This card has the potential for abuse with every single new creature printed. I don't think this card makes the meta more interesting, and I think it pigeonholes deckbuilding into "well why don't you run Flash Hulk, or Flash _". Flash combos are also difficult for other decks to interact with outside of Counterspell, which means when you're building for playing in a competitive meta, you are almost expected to play Blue due to how strong and warping this card is.
- Protean Hulk - Even with a flash banning I still wand this turd of a card gone. Finding hulk, reanimating hulk, and sacrificing hulk isn't interesting. There isn't very much skill there. The decks aren't interesting. There is a combo in practically every color combination for winning immediately after you get a Hulk trigger. It can be viewed as a 6-card into-play tutor, or a 5-card into-play tutor, etc. etc. I don't think the meta is more interesting or better for having this card be legal.
- Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact - More boring and tired combo archetypes. Once again, tutoring for 2 cards and ripping the Consultation + Oracle combo doesn't really require much pilot skill, and it doesn't make decks more interesting to build. These cards are simply too efficient at what they do, and they are hard for non-blue decks to interact with meaningfully. The presence of this combo and Flash Hulk has basically relegated all stax decks to being tier 2 builds, as they have such an impossible time locking down these combos. The banning of these two cards and Flash Hulk would bust the competitive meta wide open. Also, between these cards or the Laboratory Maniac + variants in the combo, these are the cards that are way way way more degenerate than the other part of the combo.
- Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora - These are annoying and burdensome mono-blue staples that slow gameplay, and are auto-includes in practically any deck that includes blue. They function much better than intended due to the multiplayer nature of the format, and deckbuilding is less interesting and diverse because these cards are legal. They can singlehandedly run away with games when you have a single player in the pod who ignores them, and having your combo shut down because someone draw a Force of Will after getting 6 free draws is frustrating and extremely obnoxious. They also prop up extremely mediocre mono blue decks like Urza, Lord High Artificer and Baral, Chief of Compliance. Once again, I don't really think there is any skill in playing or building around this card, and the power level of "auto-include for any deck with blue" stifles deck building. Blue really doesn't need any help being good in EDH, let alone cEDH.
- Nature's Will and Druids' Repository - Targeted bans for Najeela, the other obnoxious tier 0 commander deck in the current meta. I'm not a huge fan of 1 card combos with commanders, because you always have one of the cards available at all stages of the game, and tutoring + playing a single card once again doesn't really speak to high skill or interesting deck building. The banning of these cards will peripherally splash and hit other decks, such as Edric, Spymaster of Trest, but I'm fine with that. Najeela and Edric will still have other options for executing these combos, such as Sword of Feast and Famine or Bear Umbra, but these are more mana intensive or more fragile combos with lower utility outside the combo.
- Tymna the Weaver - I have already advocated for removing partners from the command zone, but this card is so dummy strong as to be included in the 99 of other decks with some frequency. You can get the draws even if Tymna didn't attack (i.e. it just came in). You can get 3 draws a turn for the same mana cost as Phyrexian Arena, except that if done correctly you'll get the draws before you would get the Arena draws. This card is meta warping, this and Najeela are a big part of the reason the meta is so creature heavy right now. Decks either run this card, or they run ways to handle this card because a Tymna sitting on the board for 1-3 rotations gives such a fat advantage the pilot runs away with the game.
- Timetwister - A card that sees play because you save slot efficiency by spamming TT to create a loop of infinitely recasting spells, plus its a wheel effect for 3 mana that shits on decks assembling combos through the GY with cards. I'm totally hunky dory with high efficiency combos, but losing to a timetwister loop is boring, cumbersome, and takes the pilot 30 years to demonstrate and explain the loop to those who haven't seen it. Combined with the ridiculous price of the card, and the ridiculous powerlevel even outside the combo, this card should go. This is also another card that makes fast mana extremely degenerate, as someone going first and sticking Mana Crypt into Sol Ring into Chrome Mox into Timetwister feels extremely bad, and opponents don't even have the benefit of recurring their starting hand from the GY later on.
- Sylvan Library - The green Rhystic Study. Doesn't make decks more interesting. Doesn't make games more interesting. Its just cheap ways to get cards that becomes more ridiculous in the context of a format where you have double the starting life of the format this was printed for. The auto-include nature of this card means decks open up more when this card is removed.
- Lion's Eye Diamond - No, Razakats is not an interesting combo. No, bomberman is not an interesting combo. These are both degenerate and more shoe-horn "oh I need a combo to win" style combos. Bomberman is extremely degenerate as LED can be recovered in the face of targeted GY removal by simply stacking the Salvager trigger on top of the removal if you have extra floating mana, and pretty much the only way to really stop it is a replacement effect like Rest in Peace. Seeing someone play a bomberman combo then dump mana into their outlet from the CZ (whether it be Thrasios, Triton Hero or Breya, Etherium Shaper) isn't interesting, although I will admit it is fast. This card is much lower on my list of requested bans, but it is still there for how annoying Bomberman and razakats are, plus how easy this makes Doomsday piles.
- Hermit Druid - I want this gone for the same reason Consultation and Pact should go. Boring deckbuilding that becomes "UGx deck can run Hermit and Oracle to win", and thus you end up with twenty different UGx decks that look the same. Once you have seen this combo once, there isn't much merit to seeing it again. This card isn't as bad as Consult or Pact in my opinion, and once again it is a much lower priority for banning than those cards, as it requires a haste enabler to make it truly degenerate, or a way to flash it in at EOT before your untap step.
Cards I would avoid banning
As the title reads, things I think aren't a problem but usually draw comments for bans.
- Cheap tutors like Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal - Every single 1 CMC tutor goes to top of deck (besides Gamble and Steelshaper's Gift), which means you're -1 card advantage for casting them. Having the ability to assemble combos or seek a problem solving card doesn't blow the format out of proportion. Having players be able to assemble threats in a timely manner makes the format faster and more interactive. If you see an opponent tutoring, you know to hold up interaction or try to race them. I'm more interested in removing hyper degenerate combos that are hard to interact with or are resilient enough to win through interaction.
- Fast mana like Mana Crypt or Mox Diamond - If fast mana is banned, all decks will require Green for speed purposes from the high amount of turn 1 dorks (read: accelerators) available. Stax would become 100% dead as an archetype with these bans outside of Hatebear builds that include Green.
- Free counterspells like FoW or Pact of Negation - Keeps combo decks in check. Similar to how Force of Will keeps Legacy from being overrun by super speed combos, these cards also keep Commander in check.
1 month ago
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned in commander.
3 months ago
My take on one of history's most brutal butchers; Vlad the Impaler. Rather than going all out in full-blown detail, just do a few Google searches and catch up. It's a lot of content, very graphic depictions, and horrific nature.
Vlad the Impaler
Legendary Creature - Human Minion
, : Gain control of target creature. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.
Whenever another creature dies, you gain 1 life.
Pay 3 life: Draw a card.
So Vlad is known for several things: Being a ruthless leader, feasting on the blood of his victims, and displaying graphic scenes of torture by impaling captured victims on spikes.
His mana cost and color requirements are set at for several reasons -
- 1.) It helps justify having 5 distinct abilities on the card. He has 2x keyword abilities, 2x activated abilities and 1x triggered ability. If he were mono-black, he should easily cost or even perhaps . But the second color makes it more difficult to cast, and thus we can reasonably lower his cost down to 5 CMC rather than 6 CMC.
- 2.) The secondary also helps justify all five abilities on the card in general. Setting his cost at would give the impression that he is severely over powered for his cost. Commanders that cost in a sliding scale would be Xantcha, Sleeper Agent and Mogis, God of Slaughter . I feel that both increasing Vlad's CMC to 5 and slotting in three specific colors is more than fair for what you are getting from him.
The reason he is a Minion is because in MTG, a Minion is a creature type who knowingly bring harm upon others through subterfuge or open malice
Deathtouch and Lifelink because he butchered thousands (Both by his command and by his own sword) and even was known to drink the blood of dying victims.
First activated ability mirrors Slave of Bolas . He was known to capture many enemies alive and kill them in ruthless displays. I am not sure if he kept any as slaves, but regardless you might as well put them to some good use.
Gaining 1 life whenever something else dies hones in on his bloodlust. I didn't want to go with another typical Blood Artist design because I feel focusing more on his gross gluttony is of greater design than balancing the scales of war. To balance this trade-off, card advantage is built into him. Rather than bleeding your opponents dry (Which would be more on flavor), you use the deaths of their creatures to further your own campaign of slaughter (Which is more historically accurate).
Paying 3 life to draw a card plays nicely into his death-gain abilities. Rakdos has solid draw, but this just adds another onto the pile. A lot of cards actually put life-for-cards at a lower value. Consider Night's Whisper , Read the Bones and Sign in Blood . Additionally there is Greed , Arguel's Blood Fast Flip and Necrologia . All of these roughly put the value of a card at 1 life + mana costs. Even Yawgmoth's Bargain asks for merely 1 life per card, at the cost of your draw step. The reason Vlad sets the price at 3 is because it is expected you will be building either a midrange deck or an Aristocrats deck, meaning mass death will be something constantly happening. In this way, you benefit greatly by pushing your life total ever higher than your opponents. This in turn means paying a higher cost for cards is not only something you can reasonably do, but should be expected as Vlad is essentially giving you a free card whenever 3x creatures die.
I recognize that some users may be turned off by a potential T3 Vlad (Hit your land drops and play a Sol Ring ), then drawing potentially 10x cards right off the bat. However, the way I see it is that if you want to sink 30 life into him on T3, by all means be my guest. If you are the type of player who views life as a resource, go for it. It just means you're that much easier to take down. It becomes a balance between raw power and a stable position. That decision rightfully lays at the feet of Vlad's controller and it is their responsibility to use it wisely.
He is set as a 3/3 because while he is a terrifying and deadly person, he is just Human and thus should be within this range. He is strong enough to kill generic Soldiers / Knights / Zombies / Humans / Elves but will easily die to more threatening foes as we squishy Humans are, in fact, quite frail.
Setting him as a 3/3 rather than a 2/4 means that when he deals damage, you gain 3 life and can thus pay into his ability to draw a card. While it is true that he might die and thus you won't be able to pay into his draw ability, it also means you can recast him during your 2nd main phase and spend the life immediately. It's a way to balance his want to block / attack with his draw. Just another way to feed into his abilities.
3 months ago
Also, what are the "double D's" in the name of this deck, if not Teysa's breasts?
4 months ago
I added Yawgmoth's Bargain as a sink for life for cards. I wanted to be able to draw when I wanted to.