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Mind Twist Discussion
1 month ago
hey PrepaidLenin cool deck!
i understand your perspective tuning a deck on a no-richman level for metas where everyone is on that same page. i think though your deck can have some good upgrades without suggesting the typical cedh money powerstaples.
this will be in no particular order about importance.
it wont be uncommon for you to fetch RIP at any stage of the game and thus has antisynergy with crucible. i know geddon but you probably want zur anyway before geddon and this would be winmore. having it late to striplock one player is not as good as Mana Vortex. basically i think often the ups dont outwheight the tempo loss i generates when played early. and your deck does not have all the best mana so you should better make some better tempo elsewhere. if you want to abuse your graveyard i think even Dig Through Time is way better in this deck. if that is not what you desire Dark Ritual can be that unexpected extra mana especially when not having the best manarocks. its good for necro its good after necro its good with early rocks or powers out you threat and geddon the same turn to foolowup somene elses boeard sweeper. flexibility in mana really is important for control decks. they dont always need all the mana but sometimes they can profit from that little bit extra mana to turn a corner.
the dynamo also costs alot of mana and thus also is only good if you can make a followup play. but your deck only has so many artifacts where most of them are also mana (that would be double ramp). Gilded Lotus is a much better card in your deck as you can nearly play any card you want from its mana. be that counter removal draw whatever it works. if you really want ramp in this slot you might test Everflowing Chalice as its flexible in that it can ramp zur or get bigger. otherwise you might test Aven Mindcensor. even though he cant live through your wraths he is very good. if you dont like that i recommend Yahenni's Expertise in this slot as it can act as a reverse dynamo in that you get your spell and a followup ramp or even something else.
Coalition Relic is the better tempo player than worn powerstone. you can use its mana for interaction or tutors if needed and if not you have your +2 mana next turn anyway. being colored makes up for not having +2 every turn as in control having the option when to use it makes it good.
Vindicate is a card i also struggled to let go. but its sorcery speed. for me this could never outmatch the upside of destroing a land compared to Anguished Unmaking. so in a control deck like this i could make much more use out of Utter End. i stil play the T-fighter but in more tempo oriented aggressive decks. this could be your Cursed Totem slot too.
Mind Twist is a meta thing. if it works for you thats good but i often found Tasigur's Cruelty better in spellheavy decks. you should try it though i dont know what the better here as the twist can also be very good in multiplayer.
there are some lands that can etb tapped under certain circumstances. there are those new battlebond multiplayer lands. i guess BU and UW should be upgrades.
the ravnica bouncelands are bad. vulnerable and only grand cardadvantage. it says yes to geddon but no to zur as you cannot play them turn 1 and turn 2 they dont help casting a manarock. these yould be replaced by Terramorphic Expanse and that other one thats the same rulestext. they come in tapped too so its justifiable. both help brainstorm and top.
we know this type of deck wants zur. but Wasteland often is overrated especially if you keep vindicate along geddon that you play anyway. so Hall of the Bandit Lord is very good. atleast if you can manage to cut more tapped lands for colored etb untapped lands. i play Tarnished Citadel in control zur as i do Forbidden Orchard too. going for your own value rather than setting you and one opponent back is often the better play. thus i think one should always weight which lands deserve the colorless slots as there should not be too many. Crystal Vein for example can be that crucial one extra mana.
basically when not having the best mana in hand going for more tempo plays can often be the last bit to get there more consistent. smothing the deck makes it not draw into awkward situations where you stil do something and mabe you dont notice but you slowly fall behind. the more flexible the mana the better the control deck can navigate to make the right plays at the right times imo.
1 month ago
I recommend adding Vesuva and Thespian's Stage to copy coffers. This shouldnt affect cabal stronghold too much. I know you don't want to remove too many swamps, its very much worth adding these 2, I cannot speak highly enough of them. A flexible mana base, ESPECIALLY in mono black where urborg helps with colorfixing is HIGHLY worth it. Speaking of strongholds, Volrath's Stronghold is useful as well. Mirage Mirror is versatile tility and can copy coffers too!
I dont see any way for you to deal with artifacts/enchantments other than nev disk. I would recommend adding some of the following All Is Dust, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Oblivion Stone or the budget counterparts like Lux Cannon, Ratchet Bomb, Spine of Ish Sah, etc...
Corpse Dance could be fun, recur top creature, sac is to commander. Repeatable for 5 mana seems good.
My black deck also is weak to counterspells, as my main (though I do have other options) wincon is a large X spell. You might want to consider Conqueror's Flail or maybe even Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Other people mentioned mana web and the defense grid. I recommend either one or the other, not both. Mana web works well with urborg but doesnt take into account mana dorks/rocks. Defense grid's benefits were explained by a previous user who summed it up quite well. The choice is yours. Additionally, hand disruption is useful in general and will force a blue player to use a counterspell. A great example of this is Mind Twist.
Lastly, Griffstick has a huge.....deck :)
1 month ago
Just so you know, Braid of Fire doesn't work with Torment of Hailfire, Mind Twist, etc. because the mana is added to your mana pool on your upkeep step and then goes away when you move to your draw step. So unless you have a Vedalken Orrery or Leyline of Anticipation, it's not going to do much for you.
3 months ago
NV_1980 Thanks for the Ideas man! I do agree that i can definitely add more in terms of mana ramp, draw, and payoffs.
I most likely won't put in cards such as Hymn to Tourach or Mind Twist Primarily because they're single-use targeted discard. The only times I'd consider discard spells that don't go for all players / all opponents is when they're repeatable.
As for Paupers' Cage and the like, I'm defninitely adding them soon when I have the budget for it!
Your suggestions definitely helped and I hope to add them to the decklist over time.
3 months ago
I like this deck; I'd recommend some changes though. Adding some more mana rocks and/or other ramp options helps this deck's speed a bit. Cards like Sol Ring, Jet Medallion, Thought Vessel, Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual could be considered.
You already have some nice draw options, but in mono-black I usually go for Underworld Connections and/or Phyrexian Arena no matter what other options I have, because these are so reliable; they don't require you to do anything in order to work.
Hymn to Tourach and Mind Twist are great discard spells. Paupers' Cage, Rackling, Wheel of Torture and The Rack all have great potential to damage opponents for having too few cards in their hands. Bloodchief Ascension and Painful Quandary are especially powerful in a deck like this.
Hope any of this helps; good luck brewing and playing!
3 months ago
Sweet deck bro! If Mind Twist wasn't banned in Legacy this deck would be insane.
3 months ago
For starters, you have like 6 more point s you can play with and more than that, Skullclamp is zero points.
I would recommend cutting stuff like Anointed Procession - it doesn't do anything by itself.
Smuggler's Copter could be good here to help tokens connect.
Mother of Runes is a must. She is so good.
4 months ago
Hi there, i'll share all the knowledge i've gathered after playing discard decks for more than 5 years (i've built monoblack creatureless discard, monoblack creature discard, UB discard, RB discard, Grixis discard, specter discard, etc.).
The first i see here is that you don't have anything to deal with the board, so you'll more than probably die to anything that hits the board, even a simple 3/1 two-drop. Your deck relies too much on damaging your opponent through giving him many cards and forcing him to discard not that many; the only card in your deck that punishes him this way is Liliana's Caress and that's it, it's not reliable. You also run two copies of Painful Quandary which it's ideal mechanics are to punish your opponent for having no hand, but since you are forcing him to draw so many cards, he'll always have the option to discard while playing a spell (only taking 2 damage from Liliana's Caress and only if you have the enchant on the battlefield).
You have many cards that allow you or your opponent to draw and discard cards, but you only have Alms of the Vein to exploit this mechanic, so get rid of those or stick in more madness cards.
The description says "the goal of this deck is to get your opponent as low as possible", but you can't do that quickly by relying only on 4 copies of Liliana's Caress while you'll be recieving lot's of threats and hits. Master of the Feast will for sure get destroyed by any of the thousands removal spells you'll force your opponent to draw, so it won't be dealing too much damage if any.
Let's work on the solution. First of all, you need your deck to have more consistant way to deal damage and you also need to get rid of your opponent's threats until you've reached mid-late game and you can develop your winning mechanics.
Since you have almost no creature, let's take advantage of that so that you can trade one card of yours for many cards of your opponent. Good cards to do this, depending on the money you want to spend are, for example, Drown in Sorrow , Yahenni's Expertise , Languish and Damnation.
You also need to be faster or at least to be able to delay your opponent's strategy. A way of doing this is by disrupting his early moves to wreck his plan. Cards like Inquisition of Kozilek , Thoughtseize , Duress and Despise excell at doing so.
To strenghten the draw and discard engine you have many cards at your disposal. I don't know if you want to keep the deck in the modern format or to build a casual free of legal restriction deck, so I'll recommend a variety of cards like Chains of Mephistopheles , Probe , Wheel and Deal , Ill-Gotten Gains , Urza's Guilt , Anvil of Bogardan , Whispering Madness , Dark Deal , Font of Mythos , Forced Fruition , Geier Reach Sanitarium , Memory Jar and Temple Bell.
You need more cards than Liliana's Caress to punish your opponent for discarding or drawing cards. All of these are good for the task, suit yourself: Underworld Dreams , Psychosis Crawler , Fate Unraveler , Waste Not , Megrim and Words of Waste.
Since you and your opponent will be drawing lots of cards, you will be able to discard cards too or abuse your card-drawing. This does not only work well for madness, but also with delve, retrace and other cards. Consider some of these: Chain of Smog , Last Rites , Big Game Hunter , Raven's Crime , Syphon Life , Cunning Lethemancer , Necrogen Mists , Psychotic Haze , Call to the Netherworld , Dark Withering , Gibbering Descent and also Sphinx's Tutelage.
You'll be forcing your opponent to draw many many cards, so you'll need cards that make him discard more than one to win the trade. Consistant massive discard cards are for example this ones: Brink of Madness , Mindstab , Mind Twist , Mind Shatter or Delirium Skeins.
Which ones and how many
Pick the ones you like the most according to their mana costs and their price. Also consider the ammount of black mana symbols in their cost, because you'll be playing a two colors deck.
Try to keep it as balanced as you can in terms of cards functions. Maybe 30% draw/discard engine - 30% draw/discard punishment - 20% massive discard - 10% 1drops quality discard - 10% board whipe. You'll have to test and adjust the numbers.
I know most of those cards are black, but you can keep it UB if you want to. Best version I've made of this strategy was using Grixis (Blue Black and Red) because there's a lot of red cards that force both players to discard and draw like Burning Inquiry and Reforge the Soul for example. Grixis also enables the use of Nekusar, the Mindrazer , Blightning , Sedraxis Specter , Blazing Specter and Dack Fayden.
I hope it's helpful! Best wishes!