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Mind Twist Discussion
4 weeks ago
I haven’t yet seen anyone in my playgroup make a discard theme work. And if you do, you gotta go all in on it.
Black discard decks in EDH usually try to abuse Waste Not. The problem with discard is that it usually is either 1: targeted at one player, not hindering the other player(s), or 2: simply being too weak for anyone to give a damn. Some decks even want to discard their key cards, so you might be helping them more than you are hurting them.
In short: I would prolly advise against building Discard. However if thats what you want to do, go ahead. Here’s how I would approach it:
Waste Not is crazy strong when it gets going. Sangromancer and Geth's Grimoire are your other payoffs, but they can’t turn into a win the way Waste Not does. You should also get all the black tutors you can afford to go find it.
The targeted discard spells are pretty sweet if there is a lot of combo in your local meta. Duress is the only good cheap one I can think of though.
Some decks are gonna try to abuse the fact that they can put their good cards from hand into their yard for juicy reanimation/recursion value. You want cards that deal with this as a result. Bojuka Bog + Relic of Progenitus + Faerie Macabre and so on.
Lastly, there have been some cruel and very strong discard spells over the years. Mind Twist is the best one I know for edh. However these are generally not very budget friendly. Maybe try Death Cloud
1 month ago
First lets work on the mana base, that's black's strongest power...
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Cabal Coffers, Vesuva, Thespian's Stage and Deserted Temple are your best friends. Urborg makes everything a swamp and cabal coffers, unlike cabal stronghold gives u for every swamp you control, not basic swamp. Vesuva and thespians stage copy urborg or any land you want. Deserted temple untaps cabal coffers and stronghold.
other potential, but not necessary additions can include the following...
Expedition Map to find your lands.
You DESPERATELY need artifact/enchantment removal. This can be done through All Is Dust, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, Scour from Existence Ratchet Bomb and Spine of Ish Sah.
Bonus point: Spine + Trading Post = Repeatable removal. Trading post can help you discard horrible cards you got with erebos to gain life to draw more cards, discard a creature to reanimate later. Creature a chump blocker. Artifact recursion and sac outlet for both creatures and artifacts so they dont get exiled.
Mind Twist - Best discard spell imo
Imp's Mischief - SUPER UTILITY. Redirect's counterspells to imp's mischief to save your torment of hailfire you spent 20 mana into. Redirect some extra turn spells that target, redirect path....and best of all no one expects it from the black player.
Blue players/instant speed interaction giving you issues? Add Mana Web with urborg to make them tap out always (unless they have rocks or dorks).
A funny idea could be to add Soul Conduit or Mirror Universe to switch life totals since black operates out of life loss. If you add Necropotence (or rather when you do), you can bring yourself to one life and switch with your opponent. Necropotence also has high synergy with vensers journal. Pay life, draw cards, gain life draw cards... necro can be used for redundancy with ur commander in case someone uses nevermore or declaration of naught.
Hero's Downfall for PW removal.
Alhammarret's Archive - For extra card draw.
Thats enough for now. Proxy whatever you cant buy or want to try out. I have several ideas for cuts if you're interested. Cheers!
1 month ago
Those are some great suggestions, Profet93, thanks.
The majority of wins that this deck produces, are off of cards like Exsanguinate, Torment of Hailfire, or the basic combos. Stall with creature hate, then hit heavy. It was meta-born, so it didn’t really run into the artifact/ enchantment issue. But the more I play it, I’m sure I will encounter those issues.
Having said that, you gave me some good cards to play around with:
Soul Conduit seems like it should find a way into the deck.
And, All Is Dust seems like some gold that I kept overlooking.
I don’t think that Oversold Cemetery is gonna find a place in the deck. I really don’t have enough creatures to allow this card to work, on a consistent basis. And, Grim Discovery is kind of a meta-based card, it’s there for land-hate I run into.
1 month ago
How are do you deal with artifacts and enchantments, or do you just try to play under/race whatever you are facing? I feel in a race you would lose to any real dedicated combo deck whose pieces are more interactive with the rest of their deck.
If you're into BS, since you have Urborg, you can run Kormus Bell to make everyone's lands swamps. Then play massacre worm to destroy their lands, make them lose life and then swing for the win.
1 month ago
spaceman42 firstly, thank you! I have thought about Mind Twist, great card! It would definitely hit hard in a one on one setting but this is more of a multiplayer deck so I steered clear of cards that say "Target player discards..." and more towards cards that say "Each opponent discards..."
That being said, I love cards with 'X' in the mana cost...so it may find it's way in.
2 months ago
hey PrepaidLenin cool deck!
i understand your perspective tuning a deck on a no-richman level for metas where everyone is on that same page. i think though your deck can have some good upgrades without suggesting the typical cedh money powerstaples.
this will be in no particular order about importance.
it wont be uncommon for you to fetch RIP at any stage of the game and thus has antisynergy with crucible. i know geddon but you probably want zur anyway before geddon and this would be winmore. having it late to striplock one player is not as good as Mana Vortex. basically i think often the ups dont outwheight the tempo loss i generates when played early. and your deck does not have all the best mana so you should better make some better tempo elsewhere. if you want to abuse your graveyard i think even Dig Through Time is way better in this deck. if that is not what you desire Dark Ritual can be that unexpected extra mana especially when not having the best manarocks. its good for necro its good after necro its good with early rocks or powers out you threat and geddon the same turn to foolowup somene elses boeard sweeper. flexibility in mana really is important for control decks. they dont always need all the mana but sometimes they can profit from that little bit extra mana to turn a corner.
the dynamo also costs alot of mana and thus also is only good if you can make a followup play. but your deck only has so many artifacts where most of them are also mana (that would be double ramp). Gilded Lotus is a much better card in your deck as you can nearly play any card you want from its mana. be that counter removal draw whatever it works. if you really want ramp in this slot you might test Everflowing Chalice as its flexible in that it can ramp zur or get bigger. otherwise you might test Aven Mindcensor. even though he cant live through your wraths he is very good. if you dont like that i recommend Yahenni's Expertise in this slot as it can act as a reverse dynamo in that you get your spell and a followup ramp or even something else.
Coalition Relic is the better tempo player than worn powerstone. you can use its mana for interaction or tutors if needed and if not you have your +2 mana next turn anyway. being colored makes up for not having +2 every turn as in control having the option when to use it makes it good.
Vindicate is a card i also struggled to let go. but its sorcery speed. for me this could never outmatch the upside of destroing a land compared to Anguished Unmaking. so in a control deck like this i could make much more use out of Utter End. i stil play the T-fighter but in more tempo oriented aggressive decks. this could be your Cursed Totem slot too.
Mind Twist is a meta thing. if it works for you thats good but i often found Tasigur's Cruelty better in spellheavy decks. you should try it though i dont know what the better here as the twist can also be very good in multiplayer.
there are some lands that can etb tapped under certain circumstances. there are those new battlebond multiplayer lands. i guess BU and UW should be upgrades.
the ravnica bouncelands are bad. vulnerable and only grand cardadvantage. it says yes to geddon but no to zur as you cannot play them turn 1 and turn 2 they dont help casting a manarock. these yould be replaced by Terramorphic Expanse and that other one thats the same rulestext. they come in tapped too so its justifiable. both help brainstorm and top.
we know this type of deck wants zur. but Wasteland often is overrated especially if you keep vindicate along geddon that you play anyway. so Hall of the Bandit Lord is very good. atleast if you can manage to cut more tapped lands for colored etb untapped lands. i play Tarnished Citadel in control zur as i do Forbidden Orchard too. going for your own value rather than setting you and one opponent back is often the better play. thus i think one should always weight which lands deserve the colorless slots as there should not be too many. Crystal Vein for example can be that crucial one extra mana.
basically when not having the best mana in hand going for more tempo plays can often be the last bit to get there more consistent. smothing the deck makes it not draw into awkward situations where you stil do something and mabe you dont notice but you slowly fall behind. the more flexible the mana the better the control deck can navigate to make the right plays at the right times imo.
3 months ago
I recommend adding Vesuva and Thespian's Stage to copy coffers. This shouldnt affect cabal stronghold too much. I know you don't want to remove too many swamps, its very much worth adding these 2, I cannot speak highly enough of them. A flexible mana base, ESPECIALLY in mono black where urborg helps with colorfixing is HIGHLY worth it. Speaking of strongholds, Volrath's Stronghold is useful as well. Mirage Mirror is versatile tility and can copy coffers too!
I dont see any way for you to deal with artifacts/enchantments other than nev disk. I would recommend adding some of the following All Is Dust, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Oblivion Stone or the budget counterparts like Lux Cannon, Ratchet Bomb, Spine of Ish Sah, etc...
Corpse Dance could be fun, recur top creature, sac is to commander. Repeatable for 5 mana seems good.
My black deck also is weak to counterspells, as my main (though I do have other options) wincon is a large X spell. You might want to consider Conqueror's Flail or maybe even Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Other people mentioned mana web and the defense grid. I recommend either one or the other, not both. Mana web works well with urborg but doesnt take into account mana dorks/rocks. Defense grid's benefits were explained by a previous user who summed it up quite well. The choice is yours. Additionally, hand disruption is useful in general and will force a blue player to use a counterspell. A great example of this is Mind Twist.
Lastly, Griffstick has a huge.....deck :)