Cards That Are To Douchebag-ish
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 14, 2014, 11:10 p.m. by DarkMagician
What are some cards that you feel are to Douchebag-ish for a casual game? Is Vandalblast one of them. Please give reasons for your choices.
Rhinowarrior says... #3
My cousin runs a numot deck and it makes me want to punch him in the face. cards he runs in that deck include Blazing Archon , Silence , dissappation field, and other deusch bag land destruction cards like Ajani Vengeant
July 14, 2014 11:37 p.m.
In my playgroup, things like Iona, Shield of Emeria , Aura Shards , MLD (mass land destruction), Praetors like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite ... These are "dick" cards. Why? Well, they're just straight up either incredibly powerful or they disallow people to play their cards.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope is pretty BS, too, but with all the cheap exiling removal it's not so bad. Just think of it this way -- when you play that card, is it going to make everyone at the table groan and attack you? If so, it's probably not worth it. Friends will be annoyed, and you will not fend off 3+ other people with a single Iona, Shield of Emeria on your field. Just remember to have fun :)
July 14, 2014 11:55 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #6
Mycosynth Lattice + Sydri, Galvanic Genius + target your opponents lands would probably be a bad way to to make friends.
July 15, 2014 12:31 a.m.
I really hate Curse of the Swine ... so much... And I swear to God if I see another deck based around it and Ratchet Bomb I'm going to kill someone. Haha
July 15, 2014 12:39 a.m.
SwiftDeath says... #11
I have been told that any combos are of douchebad qualifying. I use a lot of combos in both my Shattergang Brothers and Saffi Eriksdotter decks. I have all kinds of combos to ones that keeps creatures off the board to destroying all permanents in play that aren't mine. Im frequently told that I need to make less competitive decks but mine are not good in tourneys anyway. I made a new deck recently to try and be less douchy but I ended up making a deck that can exile all creatures of my choice and keep all other creatures tucked under the library instead. Not on purpose I just kept finding good cards to add and eventually it got to this point. There are many people who think something is a douche move but it depends on the person/playgroup. Mine doesn't like Combos, Land destruction, Counterspells, Control of any kind, one hit kill cards like Blightsteel Colossus , or cards that promote un-fair/un-fun mechanics like Painful Quandary , Braids, Cabal Minion , Stranglehold , Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir , Survival of the Fittest , and many others.
July 15, 2014 1:40 a.m.
Hunter_mtg says... #12
I play Winter Orb , Wildfire in my Numot, the Devastator deck. I still have friends.
July 15, 2014 1:41 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #13
I'm with Brian Rowe on that Iona, Shield of Emeria should be banned in EDH.
July 15, 2014 1:44 a.m.
Iona, Shield of Emeria , Moat , Sorin Markov , Magister Sphinx , Obliterate and everything with Infect.
Depending on the tables colors and card pool: Sphinx of the Steel Wind .
Depending on a decks combo potential: Mikaeus, the Unhallowed .
And the anti-dick card: Arbiter of Knollridge
July 15, 2014 6:39 a.m.
I think vampirelazarus is onto something; that does sound horrible
Ones that I've personally pulled off would be the Kaalia of the Vast and Master of Cruelties insta-kill, then in my animar deck Deadeye Navigator and Great Whale with Purphoros, God of the Forge and/or Inferno Titan on my field
I took apart my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind deck because I could tell people were sick of losing to Curiosity , Ophidian Eye , Tandem Lookout , etc
July 15, 2014 7:43 a.m.
Anything with Infect, especially Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon . Instant-win combos like Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond are frowned upon too. Prison cards like Stasis are generally not encouraged either. Things like Felidar Sovereign , Serra Ascendant are kinda seen as asshole cards too.
July 15, 2014 9:05 a.m.
Vandalblast is completely legit. It is only going to really screw with full on artifact decks, who should be prepared for something like that anyways. Anything Mass Land Destruction or Infinite combo is widely considered huge levels of duchebaggery. Along with anything that striaght wins you the game like Felidar Sovereign , Test of Endurance , and this goes to include things like Sorin Markov and anything like him because of the massive life swing from 40 to 10. Most things that board lock are considered douchebaggery because people get frustrated not being able to play the game, but a lot of people just understand its part of the game. Most deck constructs have one particular combo or set of cards or just one individual card that everyone will assume you are playing when you show up. Really I guess it just depends on how you go about getting this douchebaggery. If you hardcast Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker and blow up my lands, damn good pull I better find a way to kill him, but if you find a way to reanimate or pull him from your deck onto the battlefield on turn 4 we are going to have a problem.
July 15, 2014 9:07 a.m.
I usually discuss things with my core playgroup to get approval. I have refrained from using some cards that haven't gotten approval. I stick to the core playgroup because if I tried to please everybody then I think I wouldn't be able to play any alternate win conditons, direct damage, no infect at all, basically nothing surprising or interesting - just creature beats. As an example, one person was over-ruled in our playgroup in his complaints against Sol Ring . I have now seen Sol Ring used by him. As another example, I went through an anti-tutors phase but then after seeing effects that tuck generals, I changed my opinion. These things aren't absolute. Just because someone complains a bit at one point in time doesn't mean that the best option is to drop the ban or shun hammer.
Things my playgroup cleared (and I did ask): Deadeye Navigator , Aura Shards (I was surprised they let me), Test of Endurance (but not Felidar Sovereign or Serra Ascendant - I asked, they said no, I didn't use)
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon : I don't run him as a general, but he is in an infect deck. We agreed on a house ruling change for infect: 15 poison instead of 10. We aren't trying to override the official rules, we are just exercising the social dynamics of EDH.
Things I have never heard complained about until reading this now: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
I think that my playgroup believes that anything past 6CMC is only worth putting in the deck if it could win. These cards are powerful, but that just means they are worth using. They don't stop the other player from playing unless their deck is severely fragile so my playgroup kind of shrugs and says "6 CMC - yeah it better be good then!"
Things I use but not in the combo form: Exquisite Blood
but not Sanguine Bond
, Ratchet Bomb
but no combos with it, Curiosity
but no Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
.
Some cards are powerful and worth using in specific decks even without the cheesy comboing (I don't have any infinite combos with Deadeye Navigator
- although I might have Mystic Snake
in that deck ... I go back and forth on that).
I think that there aren't cards that make people "jerks" in general. It depends on the playgroup.
July 15, 2014 9:33 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #19
I've had someone use Karn, Silver Golem + Mycosynth Lattice to destroy lands; similar principle, easier to pull off because it only requires a single colorless mana per land.
As for Iona, Shield of Emeria , for awhile Duplicant and Spine of Ish Sah were popular locally when Iona became popular. For Avacyn, Angel of Hope , there's a lot of different ways to remove her floating around my group now; Tragic Slip , Swords to Plowshares , Ashes to Ashes , and so forth.
Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant , or any combo that prevents a specific player from participating at all rather than enabling you to win the game, is extremely annoying, even if the player is in the lead. Other examples are say, Capsize + Stasis , Knowledge Pool + Rule of Law , etc.
I think combos are fine as long as they directly lead to you winning. A deck should probably have at least one possible combo to end the game, even if it's improbable, to keep things from getting too stale. I object to land destruction more because it tends to either be used exclusively against one player for no strategic reason ("I don't like him" or "I just felt like it" or whatever), or against the entire table with no actual method to win accompanying it (such as Jhoira of the Ghitu suspending a whole bunch of Eldrazi to come into play the turn after the land destruction hits).
July 15, 2014 9:39 a.m.
Nothing is really frowned upon in my playgroup, you'll just get targetted by everyone else. Anything is game, really. Just have a good attitude, don't be a dick about it, and its cool.
Although I thought it was strange that there are complaints about Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite . She doesn't prevent anybody from doing anything. -2/-2 sucks, but it's not devastating. She's a challenge that needs to be removed (god knows there isn't enough removal spells in EDH). I've seen her used in the Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa combo, I thought it was hilarious.
Sorin Markov and Magister Sphinx are fine. They're good to take out the biggest threat at the table, or end the game quickly if it is taking too long.
My only issue are the "If you do X, then on your upkeep you win the game" cards. They're a cheap way of winning, but if you play them then you put a huuuuuuuuuuuuge target on yourself.
I'm starting to dabble in a bit of land destruction with Numot, the Devastator . I know it's an asshole strategy, but I'm not dumb enough to swing out Armageddon as soon as I have 4 lands. Land destruction is part of the win con.
Most complaints I see are against game-winning combos. TBH, the game has to end at some point. I don't like the "Let's see what's in everyone's deck" game as we all play cards and creatures that don't progress the game forward because no one bothers to turn enough cards sideways to make an impact on whats happening (this is why I HATE Oloro decks). We all play creatures until someone plays Wrath of God and repeat while no one bothers to attack. 3 Hours later and MAYBE someone lost some life?
Its why I think its more about your attitude when you play your cards, not the cards you play. Play what you want and don't act like an ass. If you play Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond and then tell the group that "It sucks to suck." then yeah, problem, you're an ass and nobody likes you.
July 15, 2014 11:11 a.m.
Apocalypse is the one card that was banned from a cras edh deck I put together. All the black combos y'all are talking about are in my Tourney deck and no one in my play group has yelled...yet
July 15, 2014 12:10 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #22
Apocalypse is notorious my group for extending games instead of bringing them to a close. A player in a weak position (or who is just trolling) casts it to "reset" the game. They almost always lose anyway, but now everyone else is in for at least another 30 solid minutes.
I used to hate Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Blood more, but I mostly don't like it now because I'm tired of seeing it. Folks learned to have Counterspell or Krosan Grip or whatever on hand.
July 15, 2014 2:07 p.m.
I agree that it is more about the people than the cards.
I've had people unable to handle me simply countering their spell but also groups who applaud Argothian Elder ->Pemmin's Aura ->Muddle the Mixture ->Exsanguinate .
Personally, I like playing with an "anything goes" group just because you see more. I think it makes for more peaks and valleys instead of a consistent ramp into a massive stalemate. Still, despite how difficult it is, I'm trying to vary my decks power and style, based on what different people find acceptable so I can play with various people.
There are people who don't like combos - that's unfortunate to me since I really enjoy the pressure of games that can end at any moment out of the blue.
There are people who don't like infect - eh, I get it but I think poison should simply be changed in EDH to reflect the increased life totals.
There are people who don't like land destruction....
Personally, I only really don't like the things which essentially prevent the opposition from participating in the game - lockdown combos, infinite turns without a wincon ready, Iona against mono-color.... But I'll still play against them without complaint.
July 16, 2014 6:16 a.m.
SCApikeman says... #24
Iona is pretty high on my list, but also Doubling Season can be quite troublesome but idt doubling season is ban worthy. Just when my friend starts dropping planeswalker that immediately hit their ults it can be bad times.
July 16, 2014 2:05 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #25
Yesterday I saw someone Doubling Season into Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Ajani Steadfast 's emblems. He proceeded to Path to Exile the board and sit on us with a Counterspell . Then I saw him get beaten to death by a Karador deck that got out Sun Titan , Saffi Eriksdotter , Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter and Sin Collector . I would not say either player was a dick or that any of their cards are dickish, they're just good cards that go well together. Sometimes those cards beat you.
There's only one card I'd say is dickish on its own in EDH, and that's Identity Crisis . It's nowhere near as potent as cards like Tooth and Nail or even Ashen Rider , it just neuters one player. Unless they have an unbelievable board state or the top-decking skills of a protagonist from a children's cartoon that player gets to sit there and watch a game be played that they can no longer take part in.
I'll give an honorable mention to running Triskelion if your general is Mikaeus, the Unhallowed . That's about all that comes to mind when I think of "dick moves" in EDH.
July 16, 2014 11:37 p.m.
VictorSilvertome says... #26
Some of the combos people have posted in here just make me laugh. There are some really dumb combos lol.
I would have to say the guy running Felidar Sovereign in an Oloro deck is what gets me. He also runs Magister Sphinx which I just don't like since I don't have anything like Witchbane Orb or Torpor Orb or Aegis of the Gods or Hushwing Gryff . Though, I probably should. I think there is a card that allows you to change the target of a triggered ability or something like that, I always wanted to use Magister Sphinx against him,
August 16, 2014 9:50 a.m.
MasterThief:T1 - Island , Mana Vault T2 - Island , Bribery
Kill him by turn 4 with his own sphinx.
A way to change the target of the sphinx: Willbender He may get a reprint too with morph returning.
August 16, 2014 5:07 p.m.
FaustHarbinger says... #29
Bloodchief Ascension + Mindcrank ping and your dead....
August 16, 2014 6:29 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
I don't know about you all, but the kind of people I play EDH with will hate any sort of infinite combo. Palinchron will earn you the boot.
August 16, 2014 6:49 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #31
In my group it depends on the complexity, deadliness, and interactivity of the infinite combo. If it's just "drop card win game" that will frustrate people, but if it's dependent on several other pieces to actually do anything we're pretty forgiving.
If an infinite combo only takes two cards to kill every player at the table and one of them is your general that's a problem. Like I mentioned above, Mikaeus running Triskelion will get you shunned from pods. This is a one draw win condition with very limited answers. If you have two card infinite combos in your deck as part of the 99 that's not as big of a problem, but if you're the sort of person that Tooth and Nail 's for both parts you'll probably get a stinkeye or two.
With Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator or some similar combo piece it's two cards, neither of which can be a commander, which do nothing on their own. To win you need a third piece, and if someone has been allowed to achieve that board state we typically consider that a fair win.
Another example of one we see a lot of and have no problem with is Reveillark + Karmic Guide , as that depends on having a third piece by way of a sac outlet and is only ever as potent as your graveyard allows it to be.
August 16, 2014 7:27 p.m.
It depends on the group but personally, I think combos add a lot to the format. They make you understand what is dangerous and how to interrupt it. For example, you need instant removal to zap Deadeye Navigator while the soul bond ability is on the stack. Krosan Grip is invaluable because you can break up countless combos with split-second. Eliminating the game-winning combos may increase the pool of viable cards/strategies a bit, but it waters down the game-play.
You lose a lot of the immediacy and importance of the little decisions that come with playing against/with decks containing those kind of cards. IMO It tends to promote unresponsive decks that simply do what they do, with little consideration for the competition - which is odd because people seem to point to interactivity as a claim against combos while games without them tend to draw into long stalemates where everyone builds their board and no one really interacts with anyone until the endgame just happens.
August 16, 2014 7:51 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #33
I don't think Vandalblast and other mass removal cards are too bad, in moderation. If everyone is playing things that constantly reset the board state, the game becomes somewhat tedious though.
I feel certain cards were not created with this format in mind though. Cards like Sorin Markov and Magister Sphinx feel like they were not intended for the format. I also feel like a deck that relies on infinite combos (ending every game with the same combo, using a deck built around getting the combo off) can be somewhat deflating to the atmosphere.
August 18, 2014 2:21 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #34
The format wasn't sanctioned by Wizards for a long time (it was created by the community), so yeah, they don't really design with it in mind.
August 18, 2014 2:31 p.m.
Bribery : That's a very nice Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre . Fork it over. Is that an Omniscience ? I may take that. I already have a Sanguine Bond out, why don't you, my mono black playing friend, give me your Exquisite Blood .
August 18, 2014 7:07 p.m.
Just anything that stops people from playing the game. I don't generally have a problem wit combos that win immedianty because then, that's it. The games over, and you can begin another if you so desire. If someone plays Iona, Shield of Emeria though, and names blue, your Arcanis the Omnipotent EDH deck just got a lot worse. But the game's not over yet, so you end up just sitting there saying "go" over and over again. That's not fun. Cards like Iona, Boil , Flashfires , etc. just make people slump in their chairs when they see them, which isn't cool. At least with land destruction everybody's lands are destroyed, so the situation isn't as bad.
Basically, games should have either everyone playing, or nobody playing, and preferably the former. Cards that can lock one person completely out are too douchebag-ish for me.
August 18, 2014 7:31 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #38
My playgroup has a few unspoken house rules for our casual EDH games that we all follow:
- No Eldrazi, or anything that give annihilator
- No infinite combos.
- No infect.
- Any cards that set a life total to some amount (other than 1) (see Sorin Markov 's minus ability) are doubled.
Board wipes and things like Vandalblast are completely legitimate. They your opponents back, and can be a strong card. Not broken, though.
These rules keep the games fair and the decks competitive among the others. Each playgroup has their own rules, though. Talk with your group and see what everyone thinks, that way everyone can enjoy the game. Don't expect the same if you go competitive.
August 18, 2014 7:40 p.m.
MasterThief yeah i realized i mixed up what i put on here with another post i was doing at the same time. I meant to put Blightsteel Colossus , and Withengar Unbound Flip with Thassa, God of the Sea
Epochalyptik says... #2
Oh joy, a reason to shamelessly promote my new article!
But to answer your question, it depends on the playgroup. Is it something your playgroup would frown upon as unnecessarily unfun? Mean? Inhumane?
If so, then don't play it. Discretion is key.
July 14, 2014 11:15 p.m.