|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander Anthology (CM1)||Mythic Rare|
|Commander's Arsenal (CMA)||Mythic Rare|
|MTG: Commander (CMD)||Mythic Rare|
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Kaalia of the Vast
Legendary Creature — Human Cleric
Whenever Kaalia of the Vast attacks an opponent, you may put an Angel, Demon, or Dragon creature card from your hand onto the battlefield tapped and attacking that opponent.
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Kaalia of the Vast Discussion
1 day ago
Hi TypicalTimmy thanks lol.
Crop Rotation is on my Acquireboard, I was waiting till I could get a Gaea's Cradle in there as well, but Inkmoth Nexus definitely enough value, just like having the other tutor outlet if draw the Inkmoth Nexus or Gaea's Cradle to hand.
I picked up a The Great Henge in a draft I did, been thinking how to properly utilize it in this deck. Still under consideration, many utility, just trying to figure it out.
That being said, I gave up trying to tutor artifacts, I need an artifact to combo properly with cats. Now, I've decided, instead of tutoring for an artifact, drawing an entire library to find the artifact is easier. The Great Henge can play an important role, with something like Fleetfoot Panther like TzickyT suggested, or a Whitemane Lion + and Aluren get there with almost infinite +1, and almost infinite draw (bound by cards left in deck). Theres gotta be a way to T2/T3 combo with this. Working on it, stay tuned.
Have a commander tournament tomorrow, so going to spend the morning strategizing on this cats deck with some other cEDH players.
I don't like Winds of Abandon because it's sorcery. CMC2 for exile is ok, but also ramps the player, much like how Path to Exile can be dangerous. What I like about Path to Exile is you can exile your own creature to ramp yourself, so it's a CMC1 ramp as well as a control/removal. Winds of Abandon lose that modularity. CMC6 overload at sorcery speed is just not sexy, Cyclonic Rift is instant, and the overload devastates the board (all permanents) where Winds of Abandon is just creatures which is likely meaningless. Noone does a creature combo and then waits a whole turn for a sorcery response. If it was instant, could be considered.
If anyone has thoughts on a T2/T3 way to draw library, please recommend!
Should have updates for cats soon, my revision of my Kaalia of the Vast deck is done, just one more card to change then that deck goes back into cEDH play testing.
2 weeks ago
I received the first order of paper cards, still pending my second order. I'm hoping they all arrive before Fri casual and Sat tournament.
I've done quite a bit of online testing and found: 1) Hasn't improved my avg win turn significantly (bad) and 2) Its increased how, meaning winning by combo only significantly (good).
To my surprise so far the lands have tested fine. I've been watching my T3 land drop %, and so far so good. I'm going to do a comprehensive test on it (30 runs) to do a full audit, but in the games so far, good good!
Thoughtseize was added, because of the need to get Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker , Karmic Guide , Restoration Angel out of my hand, now also in the current build Worldgorger Dragon . Faithless Looting can do this, but needed an alternative, and Thoughtseize can also be used to remove a win-con from a player, if a play tutors twice, I can Thoughtseize in and remove a component. Vicious Rumors doesn't work because doesn't have the modular ability to put the aforementioned creatures in the graveyard from my hand.
Still no Mox Diamond , hopefully my F2020-Q1 bonus will provide me enough cash to buy the damn thing! Need 3 now, have 0!
Dark Ritual has been better than expected, enables a bunch of T1/T2 wins that I didn't have before. Any Swamp producing land + Dark Ritual + Mana Crypt + Buried Alive + Reanimate or Animate Dead as an example.
Demonic Consultation was in, then out, then in again. I thought the only downside would be the 6 random cards killing me. Turns out, unless it's tutoring the final piece (eg. a Reanimate ) the other components have to played or it exiles them. Buried Alive then Demonic Consultation then Reanimate . It's a dead draw in opening hand unless you have the other tutors already, and it exiles you alt-win cons if your primary doesn't end up working.
Worldgorger Dragon I thought if I drew Dragon Tempest that I had a quicker tutor path to Entomb + Animate Dead , much like when I draw Goblin Bombardment I have a path to Leonin Relic-Warder + Animate Dead . The problem is that Dragon Tempest only gives Kaalia of the Vast haste, whereas Goblin Bombardment can be used in other combos (like drawing into a Karmic Guide and then using Entomb to put Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in the graveyard. Expensive CMC5 to cast Karmic Guide but builds Goblin Bombardment builds towards alt-win, whereas Dragon Tempest still useful but no combo. I don't think I need the Worldgorger Dragon , I've found Leonin Relic-Warder is enough anyway and usually faster.
The additional Talisman's (2) and Arcane Signet just improve the crappy mana ramp rocks that Mardu had access to before, so it's a definite upgrade.
Necromancy I'm still not enjoying the CMC, but Dance of the Dead doesn't work with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker because he needs to to use his ability. Uncertain if I need it as a duplicate to Animate Dead , not much left in the realm of tutor packages, so been aiming at drawing the combo cards. With Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker , Leonin Relic-Warder and worldgorger all now relying on Animate Dead the Necromancy seems to make sense even at ridiculous CMC3.
Mana Vault has held it's weight so far as well, no complaints.
The ADD is light now, so have run into situation where CAN resolve a haste Kaalia of the Vast but have nothing to drop, but as realsoupersand was explaining, it doesn't matter if you have an ADD to drop if it doesn't change the board state where you win (don't resolve low/no-impact ADD). Trying to keep that in mind, haven't quite paired it back enough or identified any more impact ADD to add back in.
3 weeks ago
Falcoshin As in look top 6? Or the entire library, pick the best Angel, Demon, and Dragon and stuff them into your hand?
The last one is definitely too overpowered, the closest we get to multiple card search would be something like Shared Summons which is 5 CMC. Otherwise you're looking at Conflux , Uncage the Menagerie or Firemind's Foresight type of cards.
The cheaper ones would be something like Congregation at Dawn which is significantly worse.
Considering we already have Kaalia of the Vast to cheat the cost and Kaalia, Zenith Seeker to find gas, I would think it wiser to have Kaalia's signature spell be something different but beneficial to those abilities.
Ideas for another way to encompass her signature spell:
She cheats out big Angels, Demons or Dragons with her first iteration, and finds them with her Zenith Seeker iteration.
Perhaps her signature spell should utilize those big things on the board, or bring them back from beyond the grave for another round.
"Return target Angel, Demon, and/or Dragon creature card from your graveyard to your hand."
"Return target Angel, Demon, and/or Dragon creature card from your graveyard to the top of your library in any order.
If you return an Angel, you gain 5 life. If you return a Demon, target player loses 5 life. If you return a Dragon, deal 5 damage to target creature."
It doesn't do much here and now but it secures that future draws are at least worthwhile gas. Basically a flipped Congregation at Dawn with an upside.
I would be careful about providing too much tutoring help to a deck that cheats mana costs in general.
1 month ago
- I didn't necessarily make this forum post to be a place for discussion, but I will acknowledge what you are saying and try my best to explain my thought process.
- Firstly, you are comparing Narset Windfall to other oathbreaker strategies that can win outright without the need to draw into their wincon.
- I'm referring to things such as Ral Reverberate and Freyalise Tokens.
- The strategy itself is most effective early game, but it is also a bad idea to go for the main strat early game as your opponent's will have the chance to develop and control you when it matters. For this reason, you need to control the board until you have the proper mana, which gives your opponent's time to develop. It's a double-edged sword.
- Narset Windfall is competitive like Kaalia of the Vast is competitive. Very good commanders until they are murdered.
- As for Will Kenrith and Rowan Kenrith : they can't very well be treated as the same tier, as one is objectively better than the other and they are two separate planeswalkers.
- If you are playing partnered Kenriths, you are most likely to play Will first because his abilities are better and directly work to play Rowan easier.
You got me on Huatli, though. I don't know why I put that in casual.
Hope those are adequate explanations.
1 month ago
Hi again realsoupersand,
Had to fly out to Ottawa, ON in Canada for a bit, so back in action.
50% of the time, I win with my primary win-con, which is Buried Alive + Reanimate , generally between T1-4 depending on how much tutoring and mana ramps I have available. It's CMC4, which happens on T1 occassionally, T2/T3 more realistically.
Karmic Guide is a critical component of that combo, also, yes she is playable with Kaalia of the Vast . Also enables Razaketh, the Foulblooded from the graveyard, and provides for sac/tutor. It's usually never a dead draw, and at CMC5 is still playable from hand, on occasion if the game is going on, and the Protection: with Flying also has assisted occasionally. Other than her obvious CMC as just a recursion tool, she's generally been good, and a requirement for the primary win-con.
Angel of Despair is just a Vindicate for CMC7, its ridiculous and only 5/5 flying. However, it's what I ALWAYS Tainted Pact to when Show and Tell + Omniscience , unless they have Leyline of Anticipation it's "usually" good enough. I can tutor Anguished Unmaking , however, I have to give priority up with an Omniscience on the table, so it's far too late by then. Can also destroy other random threats if needed too. She's borderline for sure. Red Elemental Blast is too slow in this case.
Angelic Arbiter was answering the Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge but now it's always Kess, Dissident Mage . Also for Tooth and Nail type encounters (eg: Craterhoof Behemoth ) or any type of haste/recursion. All together stops a few. I usually just put 1 response to any situation, because I just tutor the exclusive solution needed.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope protects against MLD type situations, but she's not difficult to remove anyway, everyone's removal deals with her no problem. If she buys me an extra turn though, it's worth it. Can also put a player on a turn timer or make them act before prepared (no Force of Will for example), sometimes... Not the strongest for sure. Or like a The Gitrog Monster looping destroy maybe...
Balefire Dragon is again, just to solve specific issues or eliminate high value ground targets. Like the others, Tainted Pact to hand whenever, a situation calls for it. I tried to cut back on creature controls (ex: Damnation ) just because its not a creature world, but often creatures can be enablers.
Baneslayer Angel cut, served no purpose other than lifelink for the Hatred but the CMC5 was too much, and only removed a single opponent. Serra Ascendant T1 "usually" puts enough pressure on 1 player (usually )), who is now on a turn timer, spending life for tutoring becomes harder, and sometimes waste time removing it. Statistically found, I was usually nearly 1 turn earlier to win with Serra Ascendant , plus overcharges me for an early Necropotence or Razaketh, the Foulblooded win or Doom Whisperer win.
Phyrexian Arena is tough, high CMC, no return. It still the second highest played card in commander, and I don't know how else to draw? Mardu is a drawing nightmare. Have to think on it, how to deal with it but agreed, same issue is with Bloodgift Demon . I've had Skyline Despot recommended has a same turn impact (draw at EOT), but also, might be ramping oppponents draw too, especially if I have no way to reconnect on attack as Skyline Despot doesn't have trample.
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight has the added benefit of removing 1-damage win-cons like Impact Tremors , Blasting Station , Goblin Bombardment , Dragon Tempest (with 1 dragon), Etc... Also puts pressure on. Usually just for a specific application though. I think my interaction package is more similar to a Thoughtseize type application, where if I can't win early, I tutor what I need to address the specific threats, instead of using Instant spell to do them? If that makes sense. Gisela, the Broken Blade i've cut.
Hellkite Tyrant was specifically answering an almost consistent Breya, Etherium Shaper deck. It's been a while since C16 set now, so definitely seeing it less and less. Might help with Teferi, Temporal Archmage or Urza, Lord High Artificer on occasion. It wasn't enough on it's own though, it also needed a Linvala, Keeper of Silence to go with it. Prior to this, I had nothing to compete with Breya, Etherium Shaper , had no way to win.
Lyra Dawnbringer is on my cut list now, might become the Sire Of Insanity or something like that. Mother of Runes works good with Master of Cruelties , also can protect Kaalia of the Vast , makes guys like Balefire Dragon unblockable too, or protects a Razaketh, the Foulblooded and becomes Tutor mana, or blocks an early Infect attack. Slow yes, but has some utility. Also can protect my Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Worldgorger Dragon causing me to win (instead of lose). It's borderline for sure, have to think about it. Aven Mindcensor feels good, looking for a way to include him as well as the Sire Of Insanity .
Steel Hellkite I tried for over a year, I would either, not be able to connect (no trample), or when I did, not enough mana to get the threat that I really needed to remove. I gave up on Steel Hellkite , also needs a Mother of Runes for support.
Ancient Tomb is back in, can't recall why I removed it. Think it screwed me one game with the colorless, but now that I've removed most of the colorless, it makes sense. Prismatic Vista isn't great, only 2 basics (can put in the snow's but for why), I like that it filters a land out (lower probability of drawing a land), but also destroys my mana-fixing as well, so agreed, unnecessary in this build, but feels weird.
I'm probably going to continue reducing CMC and reducing land counts as you've recommended, but needs some expensive 0-CMC rocks which I don't have, or some resource planning around alt. mana sources.
Overall goal is still to build for cEDH, understanding that consistency isn't going to push into more than a Tier-2.5/3 categorization, so I'll go over High Power again later lol.
Thinking about Interaction, I really don't want to go heavy into that with things like, Dismember or Lightning Bolt would rather let the opponents use their removal, and PRAY that I can sneak through a combo. If I combo T1 it has a fairly high success rate (other than a Pact of Negation which eliminated themselves) usually don't get stopped (Odd Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares here and there), T2 is still decently good, often others are still tutoring for a T3 win, but outside of T3 or beyond, usually I need to wait until someone tries to combo, and then is stopped, before I have a chance. I just go for it whenever I can though, increases winning % over trying to strategically go for it and being too late.
I think perhaps Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast or both perhaps will be handy, Silence I wish it had Split Second (like Teferi's Protection ) because most combos don't have a "sorcery" speed interaction so doesn't stop. Can protect me on the turn I'm going for it like another Grand Abolisher but outside of that not highly useful. Will do some playtesting with it and see if it improves my completion % for combo and increases my combo win % because that's all that matters.
I decided not to go MLD, can Stax/MLD certainly is a strategy, but prefer just to ignore others, and just go for the win myself, win or lose. Plus I don't repopulate my hand nor ramp, so probably just slowing myself down instead of the opponents. Plus I don't have a Ravages of War so would require a financial commitment, would rather focus on finding a way to go for the win on T1-T3 more consistently.
I think if you found Kaalia of the Vast wasn't competitive using MLD before you dissolved that strategy, don't think it's the right course to go down either. Would rather try some out-of-the-box planning, and see if we can get her into a cEDH, which your comments are VERY helpful, and VERY appreciated. Think I've made some decent strides, still waiting for my card order to come in the mail so I can make some more cuts/adds to the deck!
I'll reply on high power shortly since it's lower priority, and hopefully you'll see my deck going in a stronger direction. Pushing that T1 probability up is key. I keep thinking there must be a T1 with Entomb and Goryo's Vengeance that I can do somehow? Razaketh, the Foulblooded would need another enabler, but there must be someone (like Griselbrand aka Griselbanned) to win with? Hmm.
1 month ago
I run Kaalia of the Vast currently. She's good for both. I play kind of competetively, both in group and duel. It works for them. 1v1 it's very strong, but others are strong vs me since i don't have a lot of control or removal.
1 month ago
@lil_cheez thanks dude,
yeah, i actually want to get 37 lands in (36 normal ones + Cabal Coffers ), to ensure always having a good mana base. i already run Lightning Greaves , since it has no equip costs, and i don't have any cards that i want to target Kaalia of the Vast with (except Mother of Runes ). i prefer running Hammer of Purphoros over a 2nd Lightning Greaves / Swiftfoot Boots since it doesn't cost me an additional mana to attack with kaalia once i play her, plus i also run Hall of the Bandit Lord for the haste effect. As for Rakdos the Defiler : i actually don't usually attack with him a second time, so i don't have to sacrifice anything myself. there are some exceptions where it might be worth attacking again, but those are pretty rare, i usually keep him as a blocker, or as a sacrifice for Razaketh, the Foulblooded . Aegis Angel looks interesting, maybe i'll add it, but since i already have Avacyn, Angel of Hope , it doesn't benefit me that much. but yeah, i will add 1 (or preferably 2) more lands, i just have to decide which card(s) to remove. but thank you for the suggestions :)
1 month ago
Wow, thanks realsoupersand, appreciate all the work you put into this review and comment. I have lot's to work on here.
I spent about an hour making a reply earlier today, but when I clicked preview forced me to login and it was gone forever. So I decided to make some updates to the deck before responding again, here it is.
I understand and appreciate your comments about Kaalia of the Vast and cEDH, of course, your correct the play analytics certainly support the position. The meta is fairly narrow on cEDH, however, like most formats (eg: Modern), there are non-meta decks that can be competitive in the format, but perhaps not with a high degree of consistency. I feel that the ability to have T1-T4 win-cons can make it competitive in the cEDH format, and with your help if we can get avg turn win under 4 or improve T1/T2 win %, it certainly can play although being mardu, it doesn't have access to the core strengths of the Tier1 decks.
I reduced my lands count a few. I read an article and ran their statistics through a bunch of models I created based on the raw data. Their conclusion, and my analysis verified, there is a co-relation between playing or missing a T3 land drop and your winning % in commander. At my previous lands, I still miss the T3 land about 20% of the time. I'll see how the reduction in lands impacts those statistics. I removed Rugged Prairie , but the other 2 filter lands, provide additional conversion avenues for a Turn 1 win, so although not the best lands, the higher T1 win % benefits from their inclusion.
I also hate any land that ETB tapped like Hall of the Bandit Lord . The way I was thinking about it was, Dragon Tempest is CMC2 (but active that turn if I have mana to play something), if I play Hall of the Bandit Lord tapped on T2, it is only CMC1 because I still have my T1 land available (although it doesn't do anything that turn). Haste is important for utility, I didn't include it for a long time, then added it back to see if it brought my avg win turn down, will do some testing with it in and out.
Yawgmoth's Will mostly has been beneficial. Although its CMC3 (terrible), assuming I have a Fetch land in the graveyard, and don't have a land drop in hand, it can play the fetch, so in some cases it's a modular ramp. Also, it can cast a Karmic Guide (we'll get to her) to start the Infinite Combo, also, it can cast a Reanimate or Animate Dead to do the same, or be a Demonic Tutor /modular tutor/removal, etc. Also, with the inclusion of Worldgorger Dragon Infinte Mana, going to allow me to play my entire graveyard in a single turn. It helps with improving the T3 and T4 land drops % and provides as good a ramp as mardu is going to get.
Mox Diamond unfortunately I don't have one, I have several decks including this one that need it, but it's not budget friendly either, so going to be a future add whenever I can get my hands on some. I'll see what I can do with artifacts to get to a reasonable consistency on Mox Opal going to take a while to make all the updates and buy some cards. Arcane Signet still shows as Illegal in commander, I assume the Brawl decks will be released soon or else tapped out will update their system. It's the best CMC2 rock, it will be in there whenever legal.
Diabolic Intent has only screwed me once so far, outside of Grand Abolisher there isn't anyone (including Kaalia of the Vast ) that I won't sacrifice to pull my combo piece and go for the win. It usually finds the last piece. Mausoleum Secrets works nicely with Buried Alive and Entomb to pull the Reanimate card. They are not the best, they were includes for testing purposes, I just find I need more tutoring to be consistent so having CMC1 and CMC2 tutors with conditions is still useful, I wish there was better options for mardu. I'll keep evaluating them, if they are unplayable when drawn in too high a % of circumstances they do not add value to the deck.
To replace the Swiftfoot Boots I added Idyllic Tutor , I know you didn't suggest, but with Worldgorger Dragon in, any way to pull Dragon Tempest for haste or Infinite damage or Animate Dead feels right? Steelshaper's Gift with just Lightning Greaves does feel weird. I'm wondering on the Swiftfoot Boots though, the Equip 0 is key certainly on Lightning Greaves , but usually just throw it on Kaalia of the Vast maybe a Grand Abolisher so Steelshaper's Gift + Lightning Greaves is similar CMC to Swiftfoot Boots and equip () but of course not playable on T1 (boo). I'll try with boots out and keep the tutors in, see how consistently I get to haste when I need it to drop a Razaketh, the Foulblooded , would never want to be waiting for haste when I have a win-con in hand.
As you mentioned Sensei's Divining Top works well with Dark Confidant , but mostly I use it to enable same turn Vampiric Tutor / Imperial Seal or to ensure I get the lands I need or try and find an ADD to resolve if Kaalia of the Vast is available and don't really need the mana. Also, if I have nothing else, it's a good random draw chance to stop a win-con or pull a tutor (and shuffle it away! happens so often).
I'm thinking on Tymna the Weaver seems not bad, I don't play to her strengths but still viable as mardu can't draw properly.
About 40% of my wins are my primary win-con of Buried Alive + Reanimate , Karmic Guide is the enabler. Even when I draw her to hand, CMC5 is still playable, or cheat-able with Kaalia of the Vast . She did combo with Reveillark but that wasn't working, Reveillark was too high CMC. She re-pops a Razaketh, the Foulblooded then he sac's her, outside of the primary win-con, its never a dead draw usually. I put Dance of the Dead in, but now, I'm thinking Necromancy is better, because it also works with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker as well. Might swap the Dance of the Dead to Necromancy if I have one, I'll check tomorrow.
Dismember I like, play it in Modern even, Fire Covenant makes sense, but feel I would rather just Tutor Toxic Deluge which can remove indestructible and not have the duplication. Usually, I just try and win instead of disrupting, just let the Counterspell players stop the others, that opens a windows sometimes for me to try going for combo. I hate how Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are potential dead draws, but realistically always of value. Similar to a more generic Silence (wish it had Split Second), probably need them, need to review for more cuts. Path to Exile is a CMC1 exile, so it's good for decks that rely on commander (understanding they often don't care if they are removed because that is too late), I also use it as a modular ramp card, CMC1 to pull a land into play. I haven't found it hurts me most of the time, it's usually stopping a go for the win (like a Laboratory Maniac or something), usually wouldn't play it to enable a win.
Thoughtseize and the like, one of my favorite cards BTW, I found just hurts me and 1 player. Gives a wide opening to the other 2 players to go for the win, and now I'm short on card advantage, draw poorly, and disabled a player potentially that could have stopped the win. If it's pre-emptive (like Silence ) before going for the win, do I really want to increase my Win-Con by CMC1 or wait that extra turn to have the mana, or just go for it now, and maybe win? Tough to tell. Again too, wherever I can would rather go for my win than stop others win.
I'll have to go over creatures responses tomorrow as I'm out of time tonight, my earlier message addressed everything plus a bunch of cards I'm considering putting in and your opinion on those. For another night!
Thanks again for the fantastic input, I'm really working on making the changes. I ordered a bunch more cards on Card Kingdom today, so in 7 days free shipping, should see some more changes coming down the pipe. Also going to continue reviewing your recommendations and deciding on cuts tomorrow and over the upcoming weekend.
Kaalia of the Vast occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%
RBW (Mardu): 0.45%