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Arcane Laboratory Discussion
9 hours ago
I love Jhoira, it is a storm deck with a crazy powerful commander, two synergistic artifact colors, and the ability to run Mox Amber to its fullest extent, a card that screams commander, yet cannot be played in a variety of decks for many reasons. Captain Sisay actually also uses it to a great extent, abusing the commander that can fetch it because it is legendary to cast cards off of Paradox Engine, but again, that is besides the point.
Jhoira commonly needs to be all in to often storm off perfectly, and though by using Retract, Hurkyl's Recall, and Rebuild effects you can increase the amount of cards you draw to keep going off. Using effects that reduce mana costs is the backbone of the deck, and it is easy to see why this works when your commander can be cast using the artifacts you storm off with after she hits.
The issue comes with not depleting resources before you cast Jhoira, keeping jhoira on the field, meaning you have to run enough countermagic and removal to stop opposition, and also have enough to storm off after her, not fizzling when you draw dead lands or dead interaction. This balance requires a lot of work on the pilot to know when you have to mulligan to find more interaction. This isn't easy even for the best pilots in the best decks for the list.
Compare that to a stax deck that can shut off this deck with a well positioned Force of Will, Silence, Swords to Plowshares, or Dismember can not only stop you for a turn, but for many until you can rebuild at which point if a Rule of Law or Arcane Laboratory, Damping Matrix, Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance or other random stax card hits you your out until you find an answer, of which your deck needs to run little of for fear of drawing too many when you try to combo out.
Not to menton some stax is anti-artifact, Kataki, War's Wage, Stony Silence, Null Rod, and a lot others will be nearly impossible to win through. The same is true for a lot of decks, but storm in particular due to their reliance on engines like Jhoira, Ad Nauseam or even Paradox Engine itself. These cards have answers, and will almost always lose given that the answer is found. It is sad, but the issue with storm.
Jeleva, Kess, and Yidris storm run tutors and are in black to make up for this, finding their engine before the opposition can answer it, but the card they find it Ad Nauseam, whereas even though Jhoira has already been found, being the commander of the deck, creatures are the easiest things to remove, and this is at sorcery speed to cast, so is weak to everything in essence. This means it is a weak engine, but still fast.
The biggest issue with Jhoira I haven't gone over though. Storm decks run storm cards. They run cards like Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and Manamorphose if they are in color, these cards let you storm off with or without the engine, Kess Storm can go off with just some good cards in hand, Jhoira cannot do that. You can't storm off with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, and a Sensei's Divining Top, it just doesn't work, but with Jhoira it is a perfect kind of hand, you can get her out turn one and have mana up for more stuff, however if your engine is off to any reason, the deck sucks really bad, as sad as it is.
Sisay is a stax deck, not a combo deck, I mean it runs a combo, but that is a finisher after it combos out, you can read more on it, but you are right, it isn't fast, control decks aren't often.
The combo is two turn win, Sisay hits, next turn you fetch Paradox Engine, cast it, cast something, untap sisay, fetch Mox Amber, then Mox Opal, Seton, Krosan Protector, fetch Bontu's Monument, Bow of Nylea, and Mikaeus, the Lunarch, let Mike die, get 3, use bow to put Mike on the bottom, fetch it, then loop this. Monument kills by draining each opponent.
This is all fetchable from the command zone, but also so it stax pieces like Linvala, the Preserver, Kataki, War's Wage, protection like Dosan the Falling Leaf and Yavimaya Hollow and removal like Mangara of Corondor. This outclasses Jhoira on the basis of straight consistency.
Frogger isn't my forteit, so I cannot vouch for it, but going against the deck is rough in many cases, it storms off through the graveyard, so my removal doesn't work. More in-depth descriptions elsewhere are on how it is so fast, but it uses a discard outlet and Frogger to cycle it's deck infinitely, a twocard combo with the commander, of which there are 7 or so other halves. That is insane consistency for combo decks often. Ask someone else for details.
Najeela can be made super fast, control, stax, what have you, it is a five color general with many two card combos with the commander, so that the deck is able to be blisteringly fast, or a slower deck, it is fully up to the pilot, unlike other decks in which the best variants are known. Druids' Repository is a great enchantment that goes through most stax, and it the most popular combo with najeela. She also is 3 mana, and has an occasional win under stax if the commander can just swing around like a kreno deck that doesn't die to Cursed Totem.
I hope you understand my take on this issue, and have cleared up the inherit flaws on jhoira and the reason some decks are better than it, not to say it is trash, just that as is, the deck isn't great in the meta.
13 hours ago
@Daedalus19876: I hope you're ready this time, as I have a lot of things for you to check out.
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 4 | 104 COMMENTS | 740 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
A cEDH Boros deck I seriously need help w/ cuts. It's a Value/Stax deck that I want to reach at least Tier 3. Unfortunately, the goal of less than CMC2 is out of reach...
Commander / EDH*
1 COMMENT | 35 VIEWS
An AEtherborn Tribal Deck that is weak in power. I don't suppose you could help w/ the tribal elements? It's , but I also want recursion of Creatures & Artifacts. That, I believe, is what such a tribe is aiming for...
Commander / EDH*
This is a CHAOS deck. It's purpose is to flip coins by the lotsa, as well as other Random based effects. I actually want this to be cometitive, somehow...)
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 1 | 28 COMMENTS | 224 VIEWS
I'm still having trouble w/ making this deck better; As a Group Slug/Hatebears Deck, I have too many things that are high costed. Any suggestions for low costs that are good?
Commander / EDH*
25 COMMENTS | 285 VIEWS
Nearly complete, but I also want an option for Arcane Laboratory in colors. Any ideas?
Commander / EDH*
2 COMMENTS | 88 VIEWS
Nobody is helping me w/ this Vorthos deck based on the game franchise of the same name. What am I to do to make it consistent, while making it a good deck all around? (Color Identity Balance, Cheap creatures w/ awesome effects, etc.) If you want to check the verse out, I suggest starting at the Under Night In Birth Wiki to start. Hopefully you can help from there. :)
&... That's it actually! I can do my Kresh deck myself. The rest of these need a lot of room for improvement. If you can help w/ even a couple of these, that would be wonderful...~ We'll talk later. For now, don't you have something to do?
3 days ago
BUMP! Does anyone have any suggestions for a combo w/ Arcane Laboratory? It must be in identity. I'll handle the rest from there...
3 days ago
Update: I just found that Barren Glory + Oblivion Ring + Apocalypse is useless in cEDH. Same for the Rule of Law related combos. Maybe I'll do an Arcane Laboratory combo for Etrata, but for now, I would like it if someone closes this, please. Thank you.
5 days ago
SynergyBuild So I'm really trying to focus mainly on hard stax resource denial in here. I'm not sure how I feel entirely about Arcane Denial, but I'm really open to opinions on everything haha. Delay looks really good in here, and so does Swan Song and Spell Pierce. As for Gitaxian Probe, I used your list initially, added a bunch of stuff, then cut it down to fit 100 cards. I like it a lot, but I'm trying to be as cutthroat as possible with my picks by having a heavy focus on resource denial, ramp, and other debilitating effects and I must've just dropped Probe to test other things out.
I think I got the list to a point that I am really liking. I want lots of responsive plays, so that's why I'm running instant tutors so I can respond at the end of someone's turn to put something on the top of my deck, as well as flash creatures in to respond to an ability or effect I don't want resolving. Being responsive like that is incredibly useful when I have effects like Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, or even Damping Sphere in play. The deck feels nasty, which I really really like. Let me know what you think about it, and thank you for all the inspiration and tips!
1 week ago
Aphoticate perfectly fine double posts happen to the best of us xD.
Now onto why I doubt Kess Stax will work in tier 1.
TO start, 99 card commanderless colorless stax was a Tier 3 deck meant to prove every deck is worth tier three when built competitively. I would never call it tier one as is.
Now, mass discard? I would want some examples of that. I mean, I would love to see that.
I mean, Oppression, Bottomless Pit, and Necrogen Mists aren't exactly great unless you are really a black stax deck like Nath, and nath is about it. I mean monoblack stax can use it, but Kess breaking parity on that isn't really worth it.
Also, you claim now that you aren't a cEDH guru, yet before you claimed that the reason behind Ishai's impressive showing in the competitive tier was due to her commander damage ability, and that with Vial Smasher, until I explained that outside of Yuriko/Edric/Blood Pod, a cEDH deck that deals damage through combat in general is bad, and you caved. (November 20th as archived)
Or, when you kept insisting that Wort was a tier 4 deck on this when it was listed Tier 3, and claiming that my 99 card colorless commanderless stax lsit was impossible, before again, caving under the realization you were wrong. (November 9th as archived.)
Or, when you claimed that Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip and Erebos, God of the Dead weren't worth the spot they were given, until Soren841 and I explained to you how breaking parity and mono-black stax worked. Guess who caved? Hint, you. (November 8th as archived)
Or, when you were randomly asking people on this list about decks you should make outside of cEDH, completely wasting the use of the comment system, forgetting that the forums exist. You also dissed on Sidisi and Razaketh a bit. (November 6th as archived)
Or, when you wanted to know about Nath elfball, claiming it was too janky for cEDH, and I had to explain to you how the deck worked, and that tokens were a wincon, even without Earthcraft and Squirrel Nest. After I explained, you didn't respond. (October 23 as archived.)
Or, when you claim that Anafenza, the Foremost, a powerful stax hatebear deck that can shut down tons of Tier 1-2 combo decks on her own without an answer was 'unsynergistic' and Abzan Falconer was better than Gaddock Teeg. You caved to DangoDaikazoku, ForsakenxEDHx and me (October 20th as archived)
Or, when you enthusiastically claimed that something absurd was true or something considerably powerful was trash, someone else or me explains with common, rational sense that you are wrong.
And you cave
(Always as archived)
Do you see why I think you are conceited and have no idea what you are talking about?
1 week ago
1: I want to know if copying Etrata, the Silencer would be null/void when Mirror Gallery is in play.
I don't think you are using the words null and void correctly. First, they don't really apply to this situation--you can still field a Clone if doing so would implicate the legend rule. It's not always a great idea, but it would not be a nullity.
While a Mirror Gallery is in play, Rule 704.5j does not apply(If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “legend rule.”).
This means you can have to legends with the same name. A card's name is one of its copiable values, so Clone will have the name Etrata, the Silencer if that is what is being copied. In the absence of Mirror Gallery, the Legend Rule would be implicated, and you would have to send one of these cards to the graveyard.
2: Does [sic] Clone-like cards trigger Mirror Gallery?
Mirror Gallery is not a triggered ability--it is a continuous effect. Cards do not "trigger" Mirror Gallery, its effect occurs so long as Mirror Gallery is in play. Even if there are no permanents that would be subject to the Legend Rule, Mirror Gallery is happily sitting there, modifying the Rule.
3: Do copies of Etrata's effect also count for the number of overall Hit Counters?
I presume you mean
Etrata, the Silencer's kill condition only cares about (1) cards the potentially losing player owns, (2) that have a hit counter on them, and (3) are in exile. If you copy the ability with Strionic Resonator, you will still have the entire ability resolve, which includes the component about an opponent losing the game.
4: What would you recommend for Arcane Laboratory?
Your question is a bit vague. What would I recommend cutting for the copy you are running? What would I recommend to deal with an opponent's copy of arcane laboratory? I presume the first, but that's not clear from your post.
- would Arcane Laboratory + Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool be good here? I wonder how it locks down stuff though
Your opponent casts a card--this is their first spell cast that turn. Knowledge Pool causes that card to be exiled. A player can normally choose to cast another card exiled by Knowledge Pool, but, because of Arcane Laboratory, they can only cast one spell per turn. Since they've already cast a spell, and the spell from knowledge pool would be their second spell cast, Arcane Laboratory prevents this casting.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir works in a similar way. After casting their first spell, Knowledge Pool triggers. In order for an opponent to cast a spell as a result of Knowledge Pool's trigger, they would have to be able to cast a spell at instant speed. Normally this is not an issue--Knowledge Pool allows sorceries and other sorcery-speed spells to be cast as part of the ability's resolution. However, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir never allows any spells cast at instant speed, even if it might otherwise be permissible to do so (instants, Miracles, Knowledge Pool. As such, your opponents can not cast spells as part of Knowledge Pool's ability.
- Does Mirror Gallery also target Copies of Etrata that are Legendary; if any, or are they just Copy Tokens?
Mirror Gallery does not target, it is a continuous effect, as discussed above.
1 week ago
Aphoticate sometimes, more often then I would like to admit (like with every single comment of yours), I think you are a cEDH poser and have no clue as to what you are talking about.
I mean really, Kess Stax?
n0bunga - Yeah, Consultation is wildly considered a better version of Grixis Twin due to the increased consistency. A lot of the deck is just more of the ramp, card draw, interaction, tutors, etc. that the Twin Combo took up.
DangoDaikazoku, that sucks man, I would love to see one when you can though. I am not invested enough in cEDH to keep up with the current meta, and honestly haven't played since a week ago, but that is because I have had some IRL stuff taking precedence.
Soren841 never claimed they weren't good, just that a Damping Sphere can hinder any one of them enough to triple Time Walk them for unless they can reasonably counter it or Abrade it immediately. Without that, they need to tutor an answer often, which though only takes 1-2 turns, it then takes 1-2 turns for them to storm off again, same with a lot of other tax effects.
If you drop a Trinisphere after the Damping Sphere was removed (or Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Stony Silence, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Rule of Law, Stasis, Arcane Laboratory, etc.) they can be effectively drop-kicked in the jaw turn after turn.
Sucks man, I love storm, just can't trust it won't get staxed out. More midrange combo like Yisan can get around a lot, but are too slow to get out of other removal, and a cursed totem is a death sentence. Even decks like Animar that can make stuff cheaper still fall to a lot, and the only other fast decks that handle stax super well are like Hulk/Food Chain/Druid that can get around a lot, are either so fast they can go off like turn 1-2 before the heavy hitter stax cards hit the table, are unaffected by Trinisphere or Rule of Law like many Hulk combos, or have so much interaction to stop the hate, and opposing interaction, and also so much consistency like Kess that they can play the combo and control player at the table.
This covers a lot, I mean Sisay/Teferi are the stax decks, Najeela, Tazri, Kess, Thras/Tymn, and Yisan are already gone over, in tier one at least on this list only Frogger wasn't covered.
Frogger is such a card combo to hate out, while yes, you can totally think of it as a graveyard deck and run your Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, but not much else will affect it, like Grafdigger's Cage isn't gonna do a ton, is it? Scavenging Ooze and the Ravenous one can do some... but the one Gaea's spell that acts as the Eldrazi Titan can still survive it, so it'll be fine a lot.