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Echoing Truth Discussion
1 day ago
Hello, I saw your post about the deck and wanted to make a couple of suggestions.
You have some cards I think are of dubious value in your deck and would like to suggest removing them. You should delete the following cards; Thought Scour This card adds nothing to this deck's game plan. Spore Frog . Cut these and replace them with Empty the Warrens . Empty the Warrens can make blockers, increases your storm count, and can storm for even more goblins.
I also feel I have to make the obligatory mention about some of the better turbo fog and storm creatures you could replace them with; Augur of Bolas , Guttersnipe , Sprite Dragon , Snapcaster Mage and Electrostatic Field . If you really need to have a creature, make it a 4 of any of the creatures I just mentioned. But dump the frogs. If you really think fog effects are your answer then cut them for Haze of Pollen . Haze at least can raise storm counts or be cycled when the battlefield does not have serious threats in play. And the frogs would be gone.
Cut Nature's Spiral . It is too narrow and does not advance your win condition. I am also not happy with your enchantments either. I think I see your game plan using them but they hurt your odds of Storming off on your opponent and really only hurt yourself by slowing down your deck. I would cut Gaseous Form for sure. And suggest cutting Abundant Growth . I would replace these with copies of Echoing Truth and Growth Spiral . Both of these cards do the same thing those cards do in the short run, then they raise your storm counts and help win the game in the long run.
Your deck is missing two things that help turbo decks and burn/storm decks. Card advantage and mana rituals. Consider these cards when thinking about what to replace your cuts with or consider making room for some of them; Desperate Ritual , Pyretic Ritual , or Manamorphose . If you plan to keep Abundant Growth in your deck then these rituals have lesser value but I would consider dumping the growth for a playset of one of these or more depending on your card count. They up your storm count and provide the mana to cast more cards in the same turn adding even more to your storm counts.
For card advantage, consider making room for the cards like these; Opt , Sleight of Hand , Serum Visions , Pieces of the Puzzle , Behold the Multiverse , Brainstorm or Frantic Search . Some of these are cheap to cast with a small return but will really accelerate the deck and raise your counts. The bigger cost ones have bigger payoffs for card advantage but will make slower turns. Some other cards to consider are Browbeat , Risk Factor and the blue jump-start card Chemister's Insight . You don't see Risk Factor or Chemister's Insight in competitive decks as much but they are both good alternatives that can keep providing advantage or damage. I would consider adding 4-8 of some of these cards to give you card advantage and help refill your hand for bigger storms.
Two more suggestions that may have a place in the deck; Silundi Vision Flip can replace a generic island while letting you dig pretty deep to find one of your win conditions. You may even consider adjusting the mana base to make room for maybe even 2 of these.
Consider adding Past in Flames to the deck. This card really increases the chances of a win especially during long games by letting you replay all of your burn spells from the yard. It needs a big mana investment but it can finish a game depending on the state of your graveyard. I would seriously consider replacing two copies of Call to Mind and/or Nature's Spiral with a total of 2 copies of Past in Flames . I would keep it at two copies, it does need a big mana state to really work out for you and going to 3 or 4 copies will hurt the deck instead of help it.
Lastly, consider going to 4 copies of the good cards you already have in the deck. You should raise the counts of Lightning Bolt and Shock to 4 each for sure. I would also consider dropping copies of Fog to raise your counts of Moment's Peace . Generally, if you do need to fog the field it will happen later in the game so the mana cost is not as big a burden and the flashback makes them awesome.
4 months ago
Only having shape anew to quickly get a citadel into play seems very suspect to me given that you're far more likely to land a borderpost into play. If you wanted a sure fire way to get a citadel into play you could try using Gifts Ungiven with a pile that would either leave you a citadel to cast or the ability to put it back on top (Noxious Revival) to shape anew from there. Something like Noxious Revival, Bolas's Citadel, Shape Anew, and Trash for Treasure. The combinations could look like this:
Get revival and trash. Use trash to put it into play sacrificing one of your borderposts.
Get Revival and shape anew: Put citadel on top with revival and shape anew it into play.
Trash and shape: Use trash.
Get citadel and whatever: Just cast citadel.
No matter which way they could split your cards you could get a citadel into play and combo from there. The best part about it , is the fact that you can gifts on your opponents turn and then combo on yours. If you wanted to try this plan you could modify your land base to many different named lands that could be gifted for to decrease the lands left in the deck. (example island and snow covered island count as 2 different lands).
Other than that I would probably suggest investing into a copy of Echoing Truth/other bounce spell just in case your opponent has a leyline of sanctity of their own on the battlefield. The citadel sac is good but may not leave you enough permanents to repeat very often.
I like what you've got going on here, let me know how it goes sometime.
6 months ago
Thanks for the tip and another deck to take a look at! I'll have to put some consideration into it!
Robe of Mirrors was going to be almost exlusively used for Lord of the Unreal to protect him if I'm unable to get a Phantasmal Image to extend hexproof to him. I'm not beholden to the card by any means though.
I'm not sure which of the two yet look more interesting to me as a replacement for Disperse. I like the flavor of Repeal more, but it could be a lot more mana intensive to take out a big threat. Echoing Truth seems potentially powerful...Would an effective combo be to go with it and add in some Polymorphist's Jest? Turn them all to frogs, then force them all back into the player's hand?
6 months ago
Firstly, thank you for the compliments, they are much appreciated, getting to your questions though, I will preface with saying that at this point I have played a lot more WITH the new additions to taxes than against it on Ad Naus meaning I do not have a ton of concrete data to back up my points.
My opinions on the matchup have not changed much, I still believe it to be relatively comfortable though with a strong margin of error dependent on pilot. I will focus here first solely on the mono-white version. Skyclave Apparition is a card I am only worried about inasmuch as they tend to play the playset. Granted they can slow down our development, or worse tag Phyrexian Unlife, but at the end of the day I think we need to evaluate what that line of play translates to for us. If we assume our opponent is playing Skyclave Apparition on turn 3 in an effort to stagger our development. I believe we are fairly safe to assume that Stoneforge Mystic was not the turn 2 play (in most circumstances, perhaps we are on the play and they fear a turn 4 win which is also a possible scenario). With this in mind we need to consider what this means for our opponents clock. The other 2 drops in their deck (pre-board) are Leonin Arbiter and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, if they are playing Skyclave Apparition turn 3 then we can also assume healthily that the latter was not the play as in that case scenario they have less to fear as concerns a turn 4 win. So let's assume they have played Leonin Arbiter, they now have 2 damage on board at least, turn 1 could have been Aether Vial in which case we can expect another 2-drop at end of turn, again a 2-drop likely with 1/2 power. Add to this the 2 of the Skyclave Apparition and we are at 5/6 past this turn cycle. Overall I like being in that spot even if we have lost a Pentad Prism, of course scenarios could change if we were reliant on that Pentad Prism but being reliant on 1 rock is already a good way to lose against taxes. I bring this all up because a turn 3 Skyclave Apparition precludes an effective Stoneforge Mystic sequence by at least 1 turn, which is a scenario I am more than willing to accept at the cost of a Pentad Prism. We still go well over D&T's head, so delaying their most effective means of killing us quickly is, in this scenario, what I would consider a net neutral gain. I do not want to come across as dismissive here though, they play a playset of Skyclave Apparition, that is something we have to be aware of, in other words, Lotus Bloom becomes ever more important. Here, Phyrexian Revoker becomes relevant, as having the ability to both shut off and remove or set-up and thus be able to be more selective is an issue we need to address, a point I'll get to shortly.
As regards Archon of Emeria, yes. This card is an issue. I will say it has the distinct advantage for us of not being Deafening Silence which I would argue is far worse for us. I will start by saying if D&T is of great concern to you I would consider a mainboard Echoing Truth solely on account of this card, that said in a wide meta that isn't viable and we then have to be smart about beating it. One such way to beat it would technically be to cast Ad Nauseam on opponent's end step with a Phyrexian Unlife active and leave one card in the deck, we can then win the following turn with Thassa's Oracle, be aware though that the line opens us up to the aforementioned Skyclave Apparition, probably a risk we would have to take in that scenario. Most lists run two Archon of Emeria so there is a decent chance we don't have to deal with it game one but yes it is a card that has the ability to shift the balance in our opponent's favor when it comes down. I also should point out, in case someone else is reading this as well, that the lands entering tapped clause is very relevant and should be considered as it can slow us down considerably.
Moving to sideboarding considerations then, Grand Abolisher is fairly solid yes, as to whether it does enough is a bit of a trickier question. Personally, I think we should not underestimate it's ability versus equipment and Stoneforge Mystic, but yes it is most useful for shutting off vial shenanigans such as end-step Flickerwisp. If D&T is a concern I would likely consider up to 2 Grand Abolisher however Grand Abolisher doesn't exactly solve any problem inasmuch as it nullifies issues while we address the larger problem. In the current meta I think we have to start with upping the amount of removal, 1 Slaughter Pact provides some great utility as a one of, and then 3 Path to Exile should be sufficient here to answer the most problematic creatures whilst maintaining relevance against the others popular decks in the format. Again I also like Echoing Truth and even Abrupt Decay effects I believe have some great utility here.
Addressing a potential rise in metashare, I will preface with saying I don't see that necessarily happening as a long time D&T player myself. The deck is too much of a meta deck really to reach Hogaak levels of play to draw a comparison, that said with the current meta the way it is I wouldn't be surprised if D&T got to 5-15% of the field, at which point your argument for a board wipe could be a consideration. We have to ask ourselves then what is popular if D&T is getting that big. Spirits seems like something that could be considered there, Gruul also seems a safe bet, forgive me for it is late and I can't think of a ton off the top of my head, in the environment that D&T is likely to foster then, board wipes would be a good choice, the question though would be which board wipe? Bontu's Last Reckoning is certainly the most efficient, but it is far from the only option. I have always been a fan of Settle the Wreckage for instance, and Supreme Verdict is also a viable option. In the face of a lot of D&T and the decks that would accompany its rise I would also strongly consider a plan B in the sideboard. Grave Titan has the ability to more or less keep up with D&T, Keranos, God of Storms is also decent there weirdly, Dragonlord Dromoka and similar cards are also viable, as is Inferno Titan as a sort of catch all, being a plan B but also a potential mini-boardwipe. In other words, I don't think fear of D&T should throw you onto a boardwipe by and of itself, but rather D&T and the creature decks that could come behind it if it gets very popular.
As for Hushbringer, no I don't think it's particularly great even though it's a cool thought. The big issue I have is that we will only have access to it in postboard games, meaning we could be put into a bad situation with a Phyrexian Revoker naming Lightning Storm and us then having a useless card in hand with Hushbringer, even worse is if they are playing straight Pithing Needle which would be a huge blowout naming Lightning Storm. As the deck is currently constructed then its a cool idea but a bit too risky for my liking. If you want to play Hushbringer you do have some options though, siding out all the oracles and playing Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Laboratory Maniac, or something more obscure such as Conflagrate (which does have some additional utility in this matchup) could make it possible. Then though you would have to be willing to accept the loss of a sideboard slot for an alternate win-con that still needs to function within the combo, I'd argue that is worse than just playing a plan B. A more out there solution would be to run a Gifts Ungiven package in the board with Unburial Rites and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. With that you would have a plan B (albeit a card intensive one for your board) and a board wipe that both allows you to play Hushbringer as a piece of hate (Thassa's Oracle would likely be the cut for the package post-board), and play around Archon of Emeria effectively. I won't endorse that as the most competitive solution but I feel it's certainly something to consider if D&T and the decks it brings are very prominent in your local meta. As you rightly state, the manabase we have allows us to really tinker with quite a bit here so we have no shortage of options.
In summation though I still like the matchup, it has gotten a bit closer I will concede, down from 70-30 to probably closer to 55-45 if I am being generous lacking a substantial amount of data. At the end of the day we still go over their head meaning the burden is on them to stop us not so much for us to win, if that makes any sense, I apologize if it doesn't. Archon of Emeria though is a real issue, and one that should be taken seriously, maybe even necessitating an Echoing Truth on main in certain metas. On a much different note, the BW versions are much tougher. Tidehollow Sculler wears equipment well and interacts with us in a meaningful way. There I am more concerned as we are being attacked on two axes, and while we still go over their head, they can slow us down and drain us of resources in a much more meaningful way than the mono-white builds.
Thank you for the comment, I apologize if this is hard to follow, like I have said it is nearly 2 a.m. here and I didn't want to keep you waiting. If you have further questions, or just clarification of my thoughts here, please do let me know. I plan on revisiting this tomorrow (I suppose really later today) and seeing if there is anything else I should say regarding this matchup, if there is I will certainly let you know.
6 months ago
I've found that against extreme aggro decks like infect- which is frequent in my meta, unfortunately-Vapor Snag does an excellent job at slowing them down. Echoing Truth and Spell Snare are also useful tools. I see that you already have 2 copies of Dragon's Claw, a truly incredible card. I have used Dragon's Claw to just win the match between Mono Red, Burn, Izzet Phoenix, and Prowess. However, this card is absolutely insane against Storm, and can often be the only reason you win a match with Mono Blue Tron. If you can find room for them, I would definitely add another copy or even the full play set to your sideboard.
7 months ago
Reason I opted out of Peer Through Depths simply due the attempt to optimize for draw/mana ratios. Peer is fine but if you bring back Sea Gate Stormcaller, even being able to draw 2 and untap twice is big for 4 mana. It's simply a trade off as Peer Through Depths isn't as great when combined with Sea Gate Stormcaller but its also better than Reach Through Mists when you compare them on their own. I went all in on the Sea Gate Stormcaller reliance on this list, hence why I didn't want to cut it after I was disappointed in it. Alas if I'm going all in, might as well do it my way.
Also I should preface but the local paper meta, when I get back to it, is going to be at least Jund, Az. Control, Tron & 8-rack.
Also apologies, I'm not the best at explaining things in a cohesive manner so I appreciate your patience
7 months ago
I'm saying play more 1-ofs that you can transmute for. Its the payoff for transmute; golden bullets.
When you need to look out sideboard cards List of Modern Sideboard Staples hasn't been updated in a couple years but still has most of the stuff, but you can also look at tournament lists to see what people are putting in.
Profane Memento,Cling to Dust, Stern Dismissal, Drown in the Loch, Echoing Truth. This could also help you find the power cards you are missing; stuff like Visions of Beyond or the Archive Trap/Scheming Symmetry interactions. Generally the most competitive version of the deck is just fetches and saying "Hedron Crab, save me!", but its been an expensive tier2 list for a long time; there are budget options for a lot of the slots.
If you need power without picking up a bankbreaking manabase, pick up visions and then think about tinkering with Sphinx's Tutelage type 'stick enchantments and draw cards', with spells like Remand to stay alive is fun; the main advantage of non-netdecks and rogue decks is unpredictability; play around with different plans.
Pick sideboard cards based on what your deck needs to do in the matchup; slowing down aggressive decks that want to race you and protecting your threats/putting down a difficult to remove threat against decks that are slower than you. Mostly it'll be specific 'this buys me a couple turns for my orbs to win the game' cards.
Look at why matchups don't feel good and think 'what cards in my hand would have needed to be other cards to win that match'. Sometimes the answer is 'play a different deck', but other times you realise that if a secretkeeper was an Echoing Truth to search for, you'd win.
7 months ago
I've been using Sea Gate Stormcaller in place of Vizier of Tumbling Sands for the most part. At first glance it seems like a 'winmore' but being able to copy a spliced Reach Through Mists or Ideas Unbound. In practice it's basically arcane draw spell 9-11 for me and that's why I dropped Peer Through Depths in an attempt to increase game one resiliency by maining a single Echoing Truth and Eye of Nowhere as well as some Pact of Negations.
As for Underworld Breach, I've always preferred it because with Past in Flames required a bit of twiddle ramping to get it off. Breach only takes one twiddle effect on turn 4 to go off. Also, not really relevant but I liked how convenient it was to tap for red once to get a breach and grapeshot off. That wasn't always the case for me and Past in Flames.
Now I get Underworld Breach has inherent weaknesses because its an enchantment but the ability to drop breach immediately after resolving an arcane draw spell and recycling that same card numerous times in order to win. The escape cost is never an issue since there will naturally be Twiddles & Dream's Grip in the graveyard. Escaping a single copy of a spliced Ideas Unbound twice is more than enough to make sure I don't fizzle.
Lastly, with Underworld Breach the lower CMC also aids with the Sea Gate Stormcaller combo as you'd need to have at 4/5 mana floating to successfully copy a spliced arcane spell. In my limited trials, I found it's a bit difficult to have mana for Past in Flames after that.
tl;dr Of course it has its own issues but Underworld Breach is pretty consistent for me.