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Dosan the Falling Leaf
Legendary Creature — Human Monk
Players can play spells only during their own turns.
Commander Recommendations Start Commander Deck
Latest as Commander
Dosan the Falling Leaf Discussion
4 days ago
denis1198 I have tried Instill Energy , Woodland Bellower and all the aforementioned cards, aside from Rhonas the Indomitable . Fierce Empath is a dead draw in many games and is not efficient enough to net wins: a three mana tutor is not something we need, particularly when it only fetches Great Oak Guardian (within my list). Hall of Gemstone is a strictly defensive option for a different deck. Though it's ability is nice, many players will be operating with a series of rocks to net the mana sufficient to play counter magic. Also, it's a World Enchantment; part of our win condition is using Concordant Crossroads to finish our opponents off on Turn 3. HoG will immediately be replaced. Fauna Shaman is a lesser Survival of the Fittest , which we operate with. While Shaman can be tutored for, you can see how it's counter-productive to simply obtaining the card we actually need with all of our Creature Tutors. Primal Command in many cases is an overly-expensive Tutor. The loop with it & Eternal Witness is just as unnecessary to our success as the Beast Within loop I explained here. It's what you would consider a "Win More," while we're only really looking to "Win." Priest of Titania is insurance for Selvala and strictly Plan B. She's extraneous in our deck list. Our game should be centered around using Selvala for victory. While her potential to ramp (in some deck versions) is decent, it is no substitute for Selvala. Between all of our current options for ramp, sticking with Plan A - casting & using Selvala - is always the priority and easily achievable. Dosan the Falling Leaf would be a much better consideration to fit into the deck, or Prowling Serpopard , as either of these (particularly Dosan) will help us Combo out on our turn and do so unaffected by our foes. However, even these are wanting in the list currently... I've tried about everything. Rhonas is fine, but would only act as a substitute for Wayward Swordtooth who is superior. The Swordtooth's ability to play an additional land can help us achieve the mana we need in a given turn to go off, via utilities such as Quirion Ranger & Scryb Ranger . Bouncing the Forest and being able to play them again is a larger benefit than paying three mana to net +2/+0 from Rhonas. Those synergies are more valuable to consider. Thanks for the comments/considerations!
1 week ago
1 week ago
I was intrigued and looked for your list, but I didn't see it on TappedOut. We should compare, at the very least!
In any case, sorry it took so long to write this response. I wanted to try and break down what I think are your main points, and, well, I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but here's what I got out of your comment:
The way I read it, it looks like you're saying the deck needs to be slower. This reading is a little unfair on my part, possibly a little too overly hostile, but, I mean, I can't fathom a turn-six kill when I play a card like Peregrination on turn four. Like, that's just not going to happen. And if you're arguing that the deck becomes more able to grind, well, I have two problems with that:
First, I guess I don't know your meta entirely, but do non-optomized tables not just gun for Sasaya immediately? Like, even just reading what she does kind of sets off some alarm bells, doesn't it? I know everytime I play with somebody new, whenever I get to the "So if I have six Forests out, they all tap for six green" bit, the inevitable response is something akin to "Oh, that's not good." And then if the combo does work, all the more incentive to get targeted next game, or next week, or whenever I play the deck again. That's why I aim for speed above everything else, because if I don't, well, I just get run over.
Second, the methods you suggest of becoming more resilient don't really work? Like, yeah, Howling Mine has its uses, but I'd really rather not give my opponents more cards to beat me with, because I'm still the target. It's also why I'm skeptical of Oath of Druids . It's not that I probably won't get free stuff, it's that other people get free stuff first, and when Sasaya's on top of the hill -- a position the deck's going to be in until it's dead -- all that free stuff is headed right at me. I figure you disagree with me about this -- I mean, you did talk about how people want to deal with other people's threats -- but that really hasn't been my experience.
Incidentally, these are the reasons I cut utility lands as well. They do have a use. Of course they have a use. But that use is kind of marginal when just playing them makes the deck slower. If they were named "Forest" or "Snow-Covered Forest", we might be talking, but they're not. The only instance I can imagine where that wouldn't be the case is hitting one off of Oracle of Mul Daya , and that seems kind of marginal at best. I've mentioned this before, but sometimes I'm not even sure Scrying Sheets belongs in this deck.
But, speaking of Utility lands, let's talk Reliquary Tower . Or, I guess more specifically, "no max hand size" effects and why I think they're bad/overrated:
So the consensus as far as I understand it in "real EDH" (read: non-Sasaya) circles is that these cards (Reliquary Tower specifically, though I imagine Spellbook and Library of Leng have similar reasoning (at least Thought Vessel is a mana rock)) are kind of win-more. Like, there is definitely the feel-bad psychological effect of casting a big Blue Sun's Zenith , not finding an outlet for all those cards, and having to discard all the way back down to seven, effectively wasting all that mana, but if you think about it, at the end of the day you're still keeping seven really good cards. So that plus the fact that the graveyard is much more of a resource in EDH than almost anywhere else, and the "no max hand size" effect starts to lose its luster.
But let's talk about Sasaya specifically. As you mentioned, seven lands is a lot of hand space. Under normal circumstances, that means you'll only really have room for one payoff spell, so it better be a good one (put a pin in this idea, we'll come back to it in a bit). But there are alternatives. Last paragraph, I talked about the feel-bad of not getting to keep that big hand, but remember how that big hand happened in the first place: a Blue Sun's Zenith. More specific to my point: an instant.
Continuing this thought experiment a little further, let's ask why a player might cast a 7+ card draw spell in the first place. One might imagine that a player casts such a draw spell hoping for an effect that removes their hand limit, but that's not the only possibility. They could also be looking for a specific combo -- a way to end the game. Compare that to Sasaya's instant-speed land searchers (a special shout-out to Yavimaya Elder !). In Sasaya's case, the payoff effect we're looking for is already in the Command Zone.
In my opinion, therefore, the deck doesn't need its hand limit removed because there are enough effects that ignore that limitation, and cards like Expedition Map that can find these cards aren't actually that good.
But the "why" for that specific claim is a different topic entirely. Let's talk about it!
In your post, you mentioned that cards like Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , and Peregrination were all "ideal ramp spells" for a Sasaya player, as they also added a land to the hand, therefore ending up card-positive. Now, I already dismissed Peregrination out of hand for being too slow, but it's important to include it here as well because I feel it has the same other trappings that might encourage a Sasaya player to play these cards. In short, I posit that these cards are, in fact, card-neutral at best.
This applies to Renegade Map et al. as well, but I'm just going to focus on the sorceries just for simplicity's sake. Let's examine a typical goldfish turn. First, the draw step. Obviously, they're at plus one card. Then, the goldfish plays a land, removing a card, then playing a non-land, which is minus another. If that non-land is a Cultivate effect, that only adds one card back, which leaves the goldfish more or less where they started. Because ramp becomes negligible once Sasaya flips (while there is certainly a difference between, say, eightteen starting mana and twenty-eight, I find it's not enough to worry about, and the difference between twenty-eight and forty is even less), that means the goldfish is spending three mana on nothing much at all (as a sidenote, you might notice Nissa's Pilgrimage and Evolution Charm in the deck, which seem to contradict this point. However, both of these cards have occasional upside potential. It doesn't always happen (and, in Pilgrimage's case, certainly never on Turn 3), but circumstances for it do exist, so they keep their slots).
The solution some Sasaya players offer is to stop making land drops, but that seems so tempo-negative to me. I feel that, if I do continue making land-drops, eventually I'll be able to cast these giant threats without the help of Sasaya, and could easily win the game that way.
Lastly, before I get into specific cards, I wanted to talk about the ramp spells I do play. Namely Azusa, Lost but Seeking and similar effects. I already mentioned the speed aspect of my build, and these cards are a part of that. To be more specific, these cards are in the deck to turn cards like Chord of Calling and Citanul Flute into more ramp if necessary, which, when you're going for a Sasaya flip and a kill in the same turn, is worth having in the toolbox. But these cards also function as pseudo-alternate win-conditions. As I alluded to just a paragraph above, the only difference between tapping ten lands for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and tapping one or two is how smug the caster gets to feel. But the caster still gets an eldrazi in either method, so I don't think the difference in smugness is very big.
So now we come back to that pin I made earlier. Let's talk card specifics. Now, I've tried to go through a lot of these already, sifting through to get at your main points, but there are some notable stragglers, so let's take a look:
Summer Bloom : I've tried it. The problem is, because it's a one-shot effect, it's way too dead pre-flip. Azusa and her kin are both tutorable and stick around, so they're just better.
Skyship Weatherlight : This and Book of Rass are my two favorite suggestions, and I definitely want to try playing around with them on paper instead of just theorycrafting. If there's anything you take from this too-long screed, I want to thank you for bringing these cards to my attention.
Goblin Cannon : This was suggested before and I didn't really dismiss it off-hand, though I did ask "What do I cut?" I didn't have a good answer, then, though maybe it's -1 Akroma's Memorial , Hydra Broodmaster , and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa for +1 Goblin Cannon , Book of Rass , and Skyship Weatherlight ? I'm still hesitant because Kamahl at least is fine pre-flip (Broodmaster is bad yes, but not terrible. At least, I think there's a difference there), not to mention in my meta, effects like Crawlspace and Ensnaring Bridge are less popular than Leyline of Sanctity or even Aegis of the Gods . I guess there I'll have to test and see. You're right, by the way, about Akroma's Memorial being pretty dead 99% of the time, but it's the best haste outlet, and specific kill's been good enough for me.
If I didn't mention a card here, it's because it obviously is different from either my strategy as I've listed in various places, or is implicitly against the deckbuilding philosophy of my particular list. Or maybe I missed it, and you can bring it up if/when you respond.
In any case, thanks for the comment, and keep fighting the mono-green combo fight!
3 weeks ago
I ran Lost in the Woods in an earlier rendition of the deck and dropped it due to the inconsistency and constantly losing good cards to the bottom of my library.
Night Soil is interesting and I might play around with it. The upside to Scavenging Ooze is the potential lifegain and it can target noncreature cards. We have a Bruna deck that runs rampant some games and taking out a crap ton of enchantments out of that graveyard has been awesome.
Predator, Flagship is kinda neat, but really mana intensive, so I doubt it'll find a home here.
I do like Arena and will playtest it though. Thanks for the suggestions!
4 weeks ago
1 month ago
n0bunga also, I am glad we got that all cleared up. It is a powerful effect on a land, but doesn't have good utility outside of some 1-4 decks, of which Gitrog is the tier 1 list that can use it, Prossh at tier 2, and Muldrotha/Windgrace at tier 3. That is about it that I could argue should run the Beacon, and Prossh runs it as a flex slot. Soren841 just has a different definition of 'good' or 'bad' cards than you. I don't know I am comfortable defining those terms at all.
I think a card like Dosan the Falling Leaf is good, but it is a worse Grand Abolisher in a color with all-stars like Autumn's Veil or the super-interesting rules-implications of City of Solitude , but in Sisay it can be a great fetchable target. Same in Prime Speaker Vannifar or even some Yisan lists, while many don't run it due to it's reliance on instant-speed interaction, despite most being ability based.
But, with such few inclusions, is it a bad card? It isn't a staple, but because of its use at all in cEDH, in comparison to cards like Lava Spike , staples in formats like modern, I could easily argue it to be a good EDH card. Command Beacon I find falls into the category of Dosan, not a staple, useful in a few decks in EDH, but not at all in other formats, for more obvious reasons nonetheless.
I think this makes it pretty meh, but a card that should always be kept in mind for land-based EDH decks and decks that plan to recast commanders.
1 month ago
Syrathia I worked in both Tithe and Mikaeus, the Lunarch . I took out Selvala, Explorer Returned and Dosan the Falling Leaf as I just couldn't get enough value from them in my pods. I've had to deal with a LOT of Gaddock Teeg s lately so I also replaced Oblation with Mangara of Corondor so that I have at least one piece of removal searchable with Captain Sisay .
1 month ago
Lemme see, well you dropped some untappers 3 minutes ago according to the revisions so here is what is left: Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Concordant Crossroads, Vitalize, Dramatic Reversal, Scryb Ranger, Kiora's Follower, Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch, Bounding Krasis, Intruder Alarm, Thousand-Year Elixir, Archaeomancer (used with Spellseeker on 3 for Vitalize or Dramatic Reversal), Breaching Hippocamp, Disciple of the Ring, Chakram Retriever, Woodland Bellower (used to fetch a Bounding Krasis), and Great Oak Guardian for untappers/haste enablers for Vannifar, that is 18, with 2 undesirable lands excluding their untapping abilities, Minamo, School at Water's Edge and Wirewood Lodge.
Otherwise, the commander-centric cards don't end there. Cards that are otherwise generally bad outside of a strategy aiming to sacrifice creatures as fodder like Dosan the Falling Leaf (does see play in Sisay because it is legendary), Manglehorn (does see play in blood pod because of Birthing Pod) or a card like Archetype of Endurance in the deck specifically to be fetched after you sacrifice Protean Hulk to Prime Speaker Vannifar are clearly bad outside of this commander centric build. This means 23 clearly commander centric cards.
Dosan the Falling Leaf occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%