- 1x Aphetto Alchemist
- 1x Arcanis the Omnipotent
- 1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
- 1x Birds of Paradise
- 1x Eternal Witness
- 1x Jace's Archivist
- 1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
- 1x Kruphix, God of Horizons
- 1x Palinchron
- 1x Patron Wizard
- 1x Peregrine Drake
- 1x Phantasmal Image
- 1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
- 1x Seedborn Muse
- 1x Seeker of Skybreak
- 1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
- 1x Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
- 1x Cultivate
- 1x Explosive Vegetation
- 1x Genesis Wave
- 1x Kodama's Reach
- 1x Rampant Growth
- 1x Time Reversal
- 1x Tooth and Nail
- 1x Verdant Confluence
- 1x Windfall
- 1x Coalition Relic
- 1x Commander's Sphere
- 1x Fellwar Stone
- 1x Gilded Lotus
- 1x Goblin Cannon
- 1x Illusionist's Bracers
- 1x Isochron Scepter
- 1x Lightning Greaves
- 1x Mind Stone
- 1x Simic Signet
- 1x Sol Ring
- 1x Staff of Domination
- 1x Sword of the Paruns
- 1x Thought Vessel
- 1x Thran Dynamo
- 1x Umbral Mantle
- 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
- 1x Breeding Pool
- 1x Cephalid Coliseum
- 1x Command Tower
- 1x Exotic Orchard
- 12x Forest
- 1x Hinterland Harbor
- 12x Island
- 1x Lumbering Falls
- 1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
- 1x Opal Palace
- 1x Reliquary Tower
- 1x Simic Growth Chamber
- 1x Yavimaya Coast
I think the new Walking Ballista is a better win condition than Goblin Cannon. It has more utility before you reach infinite mana, and a 0cmc artifact creature is easier to tutor for (Tolaria West, Worldly Tutor, Trinket Mage can all find it).
Some other cards that would look great in your deck: Paradox Engine, Muddle the Mixture (counterspell or tutor for combo pieces), Sensei's Divining Top, Tezzeret the Seeker , Merchant Scroll, Training Grounds, Beast Within, [[Vedalken Aethermage]] , Kiora's Follower, Seeker of Skybreak, Mind Over Matter.
Some of your ramp could be upgraded into Nature's Lore, Skyshroud Claim and Ancient Tomb. With 26 basic lands there is a chance you draw too many of one type, i suggest you replace some of them with dual lands like City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Reflecting Pool, Forbidden Orchard, Botanical Sanctum, Flooded Grove and fetchlands if possible. I don't quite understand what Opal Palace does for this deck, but it could certainly use Homeward Path, Strip Mine, Minamo, School at Water's Edge and Cephalid Coliseum.
January 24, 2017 8:43 p.m.
Emzed, thanks for all the great suggestions, and got actually taking the time to look through and help with the deck.
I definitely need to improve my mana base, though I usually save that for after the deck has been completed. The upgraded ramp isn't as useful until then either, but I'll keep that list of cards for when I fine tune it for sure.
I really liked the suggestion of Walking Ballista, though I'm not quite sold on it, the primary reason being Genesis Wave. Yes, being a creature allows me to tutor for it, but since infinite mana allows me to draw my deck via Thrasios, that should never be necessary. It'll really come down to the potential utility pre-combo vs the risk of having it out pre-combo. Still, a fantastic possibility.
Do you have any suggestions for cuts? And thanks for all the help.
January 25, 2017 12:40 p.m.
You're welcome, glad i could help.
As for cuts, i am not sure how good Solemn Simulacrum and Burnished Hart are in your deck, you have access to green ramp after all. Being colorless is nice with Kydele though. Disallow and Insidious Will have their upsides, most often they will just be expensive Counterspells though. Awakening seems risky against certain archetypes, however it also has a lot of synergy here, so i can't really judge the card well.
Concerning Walking Ballista: This can easily kill Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, Phyrexian Revoker or Hermit Druid for just 2 mana (or you pay 4+ if you want it to stick around). There are plenty of other small creatures that can cause trouble, and this answers them while also being a win con. It's true though, it doesn't really work with cards like Genesis Wave or Tezzeret the Seeker .
January 25, 2017 1:18 p.m.
Emzed, I've never actually considered cutting Solem or the Hart before. I just consider them part of a core ramp package that goes into all of my EDH decks. You may be right, they really aren't that needed in green. It's funny how some things just become habit and you don't look at them twice until it's pointed out.
I figured some of the counter spells may have to take the hit. I originally had Time Stop and Aethersnatch as well, as I really liked the idea of having this massive counter package. Those two would probably work better being swapped out for removal, I think.
Awakening is risky, so I'll keep in on the cutting block. I wanna try it with thrasios ability though. I'm always in 4 person groups minimum, so even with only 4 lands, the value there could be huge. If not, it'll be swapped out pretty quickly.
That's actually a big help, thanks. One last question: what's your opinion on me running all of the Howling Mine effects? It makes it easier to get kydele off, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to let my opponents have all those cards. Sure, it also helps me dig through to find my combo pieces, but maybe I'd be better off just running a couple more Brainstorm effects. Thoughts?
January 26, 2017 1:34 a.m.
I think Brainstorm, Sylvan Library and Jace, the Mind Sculptor offer by far the best syngergy combined with individual card quality you can get with Kydele. Sensei's Divining Top should also be decent. But after those, your options are more limited. Running Howling Mine effects is solid, but they aren't good at enabling your actual combos since you only draw one or two extra cards (repeatedly though). One-shot big draw spells like Windfall, Time Reversal, Time Spiral or Memory Jar allow for some real bursts in Kydele mana, which is what you need in order to go infinite with Staff of Domination etc.
Frantic Search might also be good, especially once it gets to untap Minamo, School at Water's Edge.
Since you mentioned being scared of playing out your win cons: Why not run another effect that gets cards back from the grave? Regrowth, Noxious Revival, Codex Shredder, Skullwinder are all options. None of them compare to Eternal Witness, but they are still okay.
Btw, Laboratory Maniac is another potential win con. Probably not much upside compared to your other ones, i just wanted to mention it.
January 26, 2017 5:01 a.m.
Emzed, thank you so much for all the help. Ill update the deck here soon, but I'm feeling a lot better about it.
January 26, 2017 11:48 a.m.
You are absolutely welcome. I really enjoy fine tuning decks and helping others do it, i learn so much myself this way and constantly get new ideas for my own decks.
Your update looks great, i really feel the deck improved a lot.
I can't help but continuing though: Look at your 2 cmc cards and how great it would be to find the right one just when you need it: Aphetto Alchemist, Seeker of Skybreak, Illusionist's Bracers, Dramatic reversal, Isochron Scepter, Sylvan Library, Phantasmal Image, Cyclonic Rift. All of those have fantastic synergies, and Muddle the Mixture can find them for just 3 mana. With this great selection of options, it seems like an amazing tool, basically a blue Grim Tutor. And there is the added bonus of just using it as a servicable counter, should the need ever arise.
Finally, i mentioned Mind Over Matter before, but i want to elaborate a little: Jace's Archivist goes completely crazy with it. Start by using Archivist, discard 2 cards from your fresh hand to Mind Over Matter to untap Archivist and an Island, use the remaining cards (discard for more mana or cast them), and repeat as many times as you need in order to win. Azami, Lady of Scrolls plus Mind Over Matter basically reads as: "Loot until you have the perfect cards in hand. For free." Oh, and you have Arcanis the Omnipotent - need i say more?
Also, Mind Over Matter is similarly good with your two commanders: You need some initial mana investment and a few cards in hand, but essentially you can just keep untapping Kydele by discarding and use her mana to fuel Thrasios, who in turn provides the cards to untap Kydele. Kydele makes more and more mana with each go around (since you keep drawing) until you end up with lots of mana and cards.
Maybe i'm a little too optimistic about this card, it costs 6 mana after all, four of which have to be blue. But i really like the idea of turning all your excess cards into Lotus Petals or even Black Lotuses in some cases, and the individual synergies seem so insanely powerful. Whenever my buddy casts it in his Tezzeret deck full of mana rocks, the game is almost guaranteed to be over.
January 26, 2017 6:05 p.m.
A very good argument for Mind Over Matter as well. I'll have to find something to swap out, and then I'll probably put it in on a probationary basis for a bit. It woulda gone so much better with my previous build, but it still has some potential strength here, so we'll have to see
January 27, 2017 2:34 p.m.
Cavern of Souls could be useful. People will try to stop your Commanders from entering, knowing that you could go infinite and win.
It is up for you to decide if you think it's worth running. It makes both of your Commanders uncounterable and any other Wizards you run. You are only running six other Wizards I believe.
Just an idea.
January 27, 2017 10:34 p.m.
iAzire, I didn't even consider Cavern of Souls. I guess I don't really think of Thrasios & Kydele as high priority counter targetes. In my meta, that's usually saved for the inherently scarier commanders, such as Avacyn. They are both Wizards, and not the only ones in the deck, so it would fit perfectly, but until my meta learns to fear them properly, it's not worth the $60 price tag. But thanks, I'll definitely remember that if I do start drawing the counter hate.
January 28, 2017 1:35 a.m.
Hey I made a combo deck like this once the commanders were released and been playing it since. Im noticing your deck has a lack of different kill conditions which could be problematic if one or two gets countered or milled. Another thing i noticed is a lack of ways to filter mana. Once you create infinite mana with kydele and draw out your deck it is always best to have ways to filter that colorless into colored. I will link my deck so you can see what I did with my deck so you can get a few ideas. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/partner-combo-1/
January 28, 2017 11:06 p.m.
Caseyw86, thanks for the concerns. My wincon is infinite mana, and the deck is streamlined to achieve that goal as quickly and as reliably as possible. There are multiple redundancies and alternate methods of producing infinite mana, to ensure that it is always a possibility. Any other combo would only weaken the deck, as it would be an unlikely draw, not interact with the commanders, and distract from the core combo.
After achieving infinite mana, there are two cards that would instantly win the game: Goblin Cannon, and Blue Sun's Zenith. I run two finishing pieces for redundancy, in case one does get milled or some other less likely scenario occurs. A third piece would be in excess.
As for mana fixing, I considered running Gemstone Array to be able to turn infinite colorless into infinite colored, but realized that this wouldn't usually be necessary. kydele is a backup infinite mana combo in this deck, with my primary combos producing infinite colored. Furthermore, with Goblin Cannon, I don't need colored mana to win. So Gemstone Array would be a dead card except in the rare scenario that I am using my backup combo, with my primary finisher also unavailable, and no other mana up. That day may come, but it's far more likely it would be a dead card 10x before then. Again, though, this is due to the nature of my combos. In other decks, it's a fantastic card.
Thanks, and I'll keep your comment in mind if the deck starts to encounter problems, but this particular design was built with those things in mind.
January 29, 2017 1:15 a.m.
February 1, 2017 6:52 p.m.
I'm not sure what your meta is like, but I have a few suggestions for you. If this deck starts wrecking everyone else, like I believe it will, someone will slot in a Cursed Totem or a few other cards of that nature to slow you down. I noticed you have 1 maybe 2 artifact/enchantment removal spells. I highly suggest investing in targeted removal. Cards like Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, and the like will be your best option against other people metagaming you. Honestly, you should just run them anyways to help take out problem combo pieces your opponents may have. Also I agree with the above, you need to be running Walking Ballista and Mind Over Matter. The ballista will allow you to eliminate your opponents even if they shut down thrasios. Nevermore is a thing as is Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. Mind Over Matter is just a solid blue combo piece that goes very well with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx when you are in a pinch for blue mana. If you are interested, I run a deck built for beginning EDH players that features Mind over matter. Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis... and Lab Man. It showcases a few combos you may be interested in. Also, run Laboratory Maniac, it'd be silly not to in this deck. Anyways, +1 great job, keep it up! Can't wait to see how this deck will evolve over time.
February 7, 2017 2:01 a.m.
nik_r, I definitely agree on the removal. And I should probably slot in MOM as well. The problem is taking stuff out for them. That's why the Maniac probably won't be getting a spot. An additional alternate wincon would most of the time be an unnecessary dead card that I would have to remove a useful card for.
February 7, 2017 2:51 p.m.
I would cut Verdant Confluence. It is too expensive for what it does. You should prioritize 2-3 cmc ramp spells. It will make your deck run faster. I would also suggest cutting Awakening and Training Grounds. I understand you want to try it, but giving other control deck a free untap step could prove deadly. The best time to combo out is once everyone else is tapped out, and that card completely negates that strategy. Also, if you are producing infinite mana, you don't need Training Grounds. It might accrue you some incremental value over a long game, however in a combo deck you're mostly going for the win and stopping anyone who tries to interact with you. So if you cut those two cards, you can slot Laboratory Maniac as a main win condition. Also, you may want to add Stroke of Genius. I'd also cut Goblin Cannon if you haven't already. Yes it wins with infinite mana, but as I stated previously, once people know your combos, they will side board hate like Null Rod, Stony Silence and the previous mentioned cards against you. You mentioned in a previous comment that you only run two win conditions, that is fine, however there is a card called Jester's Cap, and it will wreck your day. You need to have more than just those two ways to win. Walking Ballista, Laboratory Maniac, Blue Sun's Zenith, and then Riftsweeper. I know Riftsweeper doesn't look like a win con, but it will get you one of your other three back from exile. So unless you get Jester's Caped and Praetor's Grasped, you should be fine. I would be more than happy to go over your whole deck in detail, and give you some better cuts if you like in the future. For the most part, you have a solid deck. Also, I'm not trying to sell you on lab man, but if someone has a Leyline of Sanctity out or they as a player have hexproof, your current win conditions can't touch them.
February 7, 2017 4:23 p.m.
Well, assumming that every victory involves infinite mana and infinite card draw, cards like Leyline of Sanctity don't matter, you can just use Cyclonic Rift or Beast Within to deal with it. Jester's Cap is a way to stop this deck from winning in its current form, but unless you actually encounter this rather bad card, i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. You can just as well get disrupted by simple cards like Swords to Plowshares and Counterspell, so focus on beating these kinds of problems first, since they are way more abundant.
Concerning Laboratory Maniac: If you draw your deck and have infinite mana, there are plenty ways to win. Obviously, there are up- and downsides to all of them. Walking Ballista and Goblin Cannon get stopped by Stony Silence - but most of your ways to even get to infinite mana get disrupted by that card anyway, so its not like another win condition would solve the problem. If you can't use your Isochron Scepter or Illusionist's Bracers, it doesn't matter that there is a LabMan somewhere in your deck. Having a couple effects that kill, bounce or counter the Stony Silence seems like the best solution to me, since those cards have broader utility and usually also help you disrupt other people's combos. Actually, Walking Ballista is one of those interactive cards: It might not be the perfect removal spell, but if you really need a way to get rid of a small creature (Phyrexian Revoker, Hermit Druid, Spirit of the Labyrinth etc), the Ballista can do it (and Goblin Cannon too, even if it's rather costly to do so). In comparison, LabMab doesn't offer any utility along those lines, it's a pure win condition that's utterly useless until you combo out. The card is good in decks that have cards like Tainted Pact, Hermit Druid or Doomsday to remove their library, but here, where the plan is to generate infinite mana, LabMan has too little upside. Even Dimensional Infiltrator seems better, since it can at least pressure planeswalkers and mess with Vampiric Tutor etc.
Btw, there already is another "hidden" win condition in the deck that doesn't require any of your designated win conditions: It doesn't end the game on the spot, but cripples your opponents, so you can't draw your entire deck here, but thanks to the scry on Thrasios it shouldn't be hard to keep 5-10 cards in your deck. You start with infinite colorless mana generated by one of your combos, then use Thrasios to find a mana rock and Peregrine Drake to filter into some colored mana. Now you cast Deadeye Navigator, generate infinite colored mana (flicker the drake), and abuse Eternal Witness triggers to Beast Within all your opponents' permanents, then follow that up with a Cyclonic Rift. From there, simply go through a couple of attack steps to actually win. Umbral Mantle and Sword of the Paruns should help with that. Yet another reason why i wouldn't worry about Jester's Cap.
February 7, 2017 5:26 p.m.
Emzed, nik_r, thanks for the great comments. As for cuts, I agree that Verdant Confluence is a sub-par ramp spell. However, the main reason I run it is for its versatility. Returning up to a full combo from your graveyard to your hand and possibly gaining an extra land in the process is pretty useful. Still, it's one I've considered cutting.
Awakening has proven itself in multiple games already. Now that I've played it a number of times, I've realized it's one of the most powerful cards in the deck. Unlike Seedborn Muse, it is less likely to be immediately answered, as people both think they can benefit off of it and underestimate just how much I benefit from it. I was shaky on it in theory, but in practice it is amazing.
Training Grounds is another uncuttable. Scry 1, then draw or ramp, for , has proved invaluable every time I've gotten it out.
They're good cut suggestions, they're all the cards I was iffy on before actually playing the deck, but they work so much better than I would have expected. Verdant Confluence may be coming out though.
I do like the possibility of Dimensional Infiltrator, but would still need to make cuts.
Thanks so much for for taking the time to go through my deck and offer help. Sorry to shoot down most of the cut suggestions, but those two cards really do over perform every time I draw them. (Awakening has even won me games with an Omnath and a Kruphix at the table)
I do still want to add a little more removal, and I would still appreciate any ideas or help either of you may still have.
February 7, 2017 8:55 p.m.
Some of the best removal options in your colors are Lignify, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization for creatures, Nature's Claim, Natural State and Krosan Grip for artifacts/enchantments, and Song of the Dryads or Chain of Vapor for basically anything. If you want creatures as your removal (sometimes easier to tutor for), Reclamation Sage, Duplicant and Ulvenwald Tracker are my suggestions. Primal Command and Venser, Shaper Savant are universal tools: While more costly than other options, they offer lots of versatility.
As for potential cuts: Kruphix, God of Horizons has synergy with your gameplan, but do you really need him? Investing 5 mana into a card that then stores mana for later use seems rather slow to me (unless Seedborn Muse or Awakening get involved), and doesn't help you combo faster or safer.
Insidious Will is a card i don't have much experience with, but i can't imagine wanting to pay 4 mana for this effect - too often it will just be an expensive Counterspell.
February 7, 2017 9:21 p.m.
Very cool deck, definitely gonna look at it in more detail. Looks fun. +1
February 8, 2017 1:44 a.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila, thanks, glad you like it:)
Emzed, you're right, Kruphix is gonna come out, probably gonna put in Song of the Dryads. Insidious Will might come out, but probably only for another counterspell atm. I've been enjoying having a decent sized counter package. But yea, it could be a better one.
February 8, 2017 3:05 a.m.
What about maybe Psychosis Crawler? With the ability to draw your deck, you can basically kill on the draw.
February 25, 2017 1:18 p.m.
struck21, I considered Psychosis Crawler, but it's pretty much a redundant wincon. It only wins when you have unlimited mana, and can draw your deck, and I have two other cards already that do that. Furthermore, he only works if you draw into him in the first half of your deck, and even then supposing your opponents haven't gained any life. It's not a bad card, but it would be an unnecessary end piece.
February 25, 2017 11:06 p.m.
So I went through and copied your deck and made a few changes, awesome deck by the way. I did most my changes in land. Alchemist's Refuge is a work horse. Dropping Defense of the Heart on the end step before my turn is lovely. Yavimaya Hollow is another great add, has saved my Seedborn Muse several times. Pulled Cavern of Souls today and put that in. Picked up a Riptide Laboratory as well. With so many Wizards in the deck, it is nice to save some if I can.
The local card shop that I play at has an EDH league with a point system. I lose points for killing a table all at once, so I have to find ways to do it one turn at a time. Kruphix, God of Horizons is a godsend for that.
March 17, 2017 11:41 p.m.
struck21, I definitely need to expand my mana-base. I ran out of money while building it so it doesn't have everything I would have wanted. I'm shocked that Yavimaya Hollow isn't in there though. There may be one in my physical deck. Otherwise it didn't make the budget and I just forgot.
With all the wizards, Cavern of Souls be fantastic. Congrats on the pull. I have 2 other decks that need one first, sadly. Maybe if I pull 3? XP
I like the other ideas too. I initially wanted to shy away from too many colorless-producing lands, but after playing it, I think they'd be fine. I'll definitely be adding Alchemist's Refuge now.
Glad you liked the deck, and thanks for reminding me to take a second look at my lands:)
March 18, 2017 12:20 a.m.
What about Quest for Renewal? It's usually pretty easy to get active....
March 20, 2017 1:25 p.m.
libraryjoy, this is better in elf tribal and other such decks where a majority of mana comes from creatures. kydele doesn't produce mana if you haven't drawn that turn, and there isn't enough creature-based mana to warrant running that card in this deck.
March 20, 2017 3:29 p.m.
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|Date added||2 months|
|Last updated||3 days|
This deck is Commander / EDH legal.
|Tokens||3/3 Beast, 1/1 Bird|
|Folders||EDH, Build, Other people's EDH decks, idk, Commander Decks (Interesting and Budget), Cool Decks, Nette Ideen, Noice, Interesting, Cool Decks, See all 12|
|Top rank||#7 on 2017-02-15|